EVE Online

[Izawwlgood]

You should try adding Logistics ships into your fleets; 3-4 of them can keep an entire operation afloat, and alleviate the requirement of daisy chaining rep blobs.

[Swivelguy]

We do sometimes, but we don't require them of new members.

C4 plexing is a bit of an odd beast, because of its intermediate difficulty (and also stupid engagement ranges), which is why not that many people do it. You can do it with a mutual-RR ball (4+ tengus or 6+ battleships, or some combination), or you can do it with 2 logis and pure DPS ships. Or you can do it with 1 logi and some RR tengus/BS to rep the logi when it gets primaried. It turns out that the highest DPS option is probably 0 or 1 logi, because ships like the tempest and mega don't lose a lot of dps capability by being fit for RR. Distributed RR also keeps you from being vulnerable to the logi(s) disconnecting at a bad moment.

[Alasseo]

Do note that by living in a wormhole with a static highsec, you are going to be the transit route for many an experienced corp who is getting stuff in and out (this may of course provide ganking options). If you have a static null, you're the exit point for roaming fleets. Lowsec might actually be safer.. ymmv.

This happens about once a month. The C5 and C6 "serious business" corps do their serious business hauling with [jump] freighters when they get a direct C5 or C6 to highsec/lowsec.

Oh, for the major stuff, yes. C1s can't even have battleships come through - quite annoying. But for running and grabbing a new vaga after the last one pops, C1 highsecs are quite nice.

[Izawwlgood]

We did C6s with 3 Logis and >6 BSs, and we milked them with capitals. If everyone packs TPs or Webs, Dreads can make Sleeper BSs evaporate, otherwise, Carriers can take over for the Logis

[Alasseo]

Why not just send in triage carrier and use BS to clear off the first wave, then send in dreads and so on?

[Izawwlgood]

You mean send in a carrier first, and then have BSs follow?
Sleepers tend to target the most recent addition to the field, and starter wave + 6 Guardians was actually too much dps for a single carrier to reliably rep I seem to recall. Triaged, probably would have been fine, but I don't think we had anyone capable of running triage at the time. I think once we had a single Triage pilot we just used that, although truthfully, i can't remember if it was still too much single target dps. Or it was possible, but dicy, and not cap stable.

Yeah, I think with max skills, if you had dual reps, you could rep yourself, but not sustainably to survive the wave, and if you were dishing out reps, you could keep people afloat, but again, not sustainably. So it was possible, but very dicy.

In leui of waiting for Logi 5 to train, we just sent 3 Logis + BSs, and when we had cleared all but the next wave triggers, shipped off one of the Logi's and brought in a carrier. Then shipped out the other two and broad in more carriers/dreads.
You can't solo these sites in a carrier either; they target Fighters all too rapidly. Carrier pilots had to be really diligent about pulling back fighters. It was a truly annoying juggling game.

[Alasseo]

I can assure you that a triage carrier can do it just fine. You just need subcaps for the first wave, too. After that it's dreads and they can tank and kill the waves easily. If you wanted, you could likely do it with 4 characters, though it'd be slow, and there'd be plenty of reshipping involved.

[Izawwlgood]

Yeah, a single triage carrier can take care of the group, but like I said, we didn't have a triage pilot when we started. A triage carrier also can't contribute to damage output, so we didn't use it when we finally had a pilot who could. While a single triage carrier and three dreads could probably do a site on their own, it would most likely take HOURS, and anything smaller than a BC would be incredibly annoying to take down. We found that a Moros was the best dread at the time, because of the drone bonus.

Dreads are basically only even able to help when you paint and web a sleeper BS anyway; even the ones that orbit at ~80km can be problematic for the tracking if sieged. And when not sieged, a Dread is only approximately as useful as a BS anyway, save for spawning an additional wave. Yeah, now that I think about it, we hated dreads for doing Sleeper sites. If anything, we'd have to try soloing by just sending in 4-5 carriers, but alpha on 24 Sleeper Guardians is no laughing matter. Even if fit for solely RR, I think 5 pilots would struggle, let alone keep all their Fighters.

[Alasseo]

Oh, yes, you do need subcaps, particularly a web loki, but you could do it with just the triage carrier, 3 other subcaps to deal with wave #1, and then switch the subcaps (except for loki) to caps... if you really wanted to.

The smart way is a triage plus a few BS for dps (bonus points for marauders tractoring stuff in so the noctis can clean up that much faster) + some tengus for the smaller shit, and then dreads for the further escalations. What the magical most efficient numbers combination is I don't know. Very likely it is actually triage archon + 2 or 3 lokis + 1 moros, do the first two waves at once, then bring in the next caps (pref. moros). Should have no problem taking two escalation waves at once, and with two lokis web/painting, the moros will cut through the sleepers just fine. for clearing the actual site, tengus or triage + maruaders is most efficient, I'd suppose. Haven't ever really done comparison testing, though.

[Izawwlgood]

The smart way is a triage plus a few BS for dps (bonus points for marauders tractoring stuff in so the noctis can clean up that much faster) + some tengus for the smaller shit, and then dreads for the further escalations.

I forget, do capital escalation waves only count for 2x carrier and 2x dread, or was it just capitals? Because truthfully, I seem to recall dreads being entirely useless compared to carriers.

The problem with 'optimal setups' is that you have to balance speed with number of people. So any site can be completed with 20 T3s and 3-4 Logis, or 20 daisy repping marauders + drones, but the name of the game was both speed and profit. We had equal splits, so found the sweet spot was around 8-10 toons. If we had 16 or so on, we'd split up to two sites and average the two pulls. Because what was optimal was maximizing damage output per toon (which means daisy repping isn't good if you have more than 6 people), and not requiring extensive support for capitals (which means dreads suck, marauders are 'next worst' and t3 is best). You are grossly overestimating the actual output of a dread, and ignoring the output of well managed fighters from a carrier, especially a thanny.

[BlackSails]

The people I know in c5/c6s, use a triage archon, a bunch of dreads, and a few support ships (webbing lokis mostly)

[Izawwlgood]

Unless additional spawns only pop with both dreads and carriers (and not just capitals), that's not the most effective way of doing it. They're spending a lot of time chasing down the small and medium sized sleepers, and that triaging carrier is outputting zero dps. Shrug. Whatever works.

[Alasseo]

But for capital escalation, there are no small and medium sleepers. Just big ones. And you can cap escalate for 3 days before you actually clear the site. That said, if you're talking about actually clearing a site, that's different. I'd actually say that maruaders/pirate BS + triage would be better off than RR tengu.. tengus are nice because they have the high tank and decent missile dps, but marauaders still put out more dps, and the triage will have no issue keeping them up. You're going to have one non-damage-dealing character in there in return for the rest of your characters doing more dps. I'd figure that makes up for it, but I don't know for sure.

[Izawwlgood]

You're going to have one non-damage-dealing character in there in return for the rest of your characters doing more dps. I'd figure that makes up for it, but I don't know for sure.

Right, my point is having one carrier in triage to bring in a bunch of unsieged dreads is less effective dps wise than bringing in untriaged carriers. Dreads are not good in these sites; they're only used for the two escalations they provide, and they don't do very effective damage to anything but painted, webbed BSs.

And clearing the site matters; you're going to have a much slower time of it if you don't bring in a salvaging rigged dessie specifically for the purpose of cleaning up after done. Remember, Sleepers don't give bounties, and their loot isn't worth much compared to their salvage.

I'd actually say that maruaders/pirate BS + triage would be better off than RR tengu.. tengus are nice because they have the high tank and decent missile dps, but marauaders still put out more dps, and the triage will have no issue keeping them up.

Triage can handle the reps, but it doesn't output dps. Like I said, the best composition is 2-3 logis, and t3 (we preferred the Proteus for the higher damage output, but also used Legions, which had better range flexibility and didn't require ammo), phasing the logis with non-triaging carriers out once the first wave had been brought down to just the triggers. Once the two carriers are on the field, two dreads would warp in, and the t3 would paint and web. The carriers did better damage than the dreads typically.

Also, sieged dreads can't be repped, and do pretty lackluster dps unsieged with much lower utility than T3 or BSs, so, really aren't terribly useful. Dreads are only used because you need two for the maximal escalation.

[BlackSails]

The carrier is for the support ships. The dreads are sieged, and they are only bothering with the capital escalations, they dont even bother with the sites themselves.

[Izawwlgood]

Yes, I understand that, and I'm telling you that doesn't really help a whole lot because you can't reasonably salvage a site while there are still sleepers flying around, AND, for sieged dreads to do any damage to the Guardian spawns, they require support ships TPing and webbing. This also requires a lot of mobility on the support ships part, which can get dicey for a traiged carrier.

[Alasseo]

You're going to have one non-damage-dealing character in there in return for the rest of your characters doing more dps. I'd figure that makes up for it, but I don't know for sure.

Right, my point is having one carrier in triage to bring in a bunch of unsieged dreads is less effective dps wise than bringing in untriaged carriers. Dreads are not good in these sites; they're only used for the two escalations they provide, and they don't do very effective damage to anything but painted, webbed BSs.

And clearing the site matters; you're going to have a much slower time of it if you don't bring in a salvaging rigged dessie specifically for the purpose of cleaning up after done. Remember, Sleepers don't give bounties, and their loot isn't worth much compared to their salvage.

I'd actually say that maruaders/pirate BS + triage would be better off than RR tengu.. tengus are nice because they have the high tank and decent missile dps, but marauaders still put out more dps, and the triage will have no issue keeping them up.

Triage can handle the reps, but it doesn't output dps. Like I said, the best composition is 2-3 logis, and t3 (we preferred the Proteus for the higher damage output, but also used Legions, which had better range flexibility and didn't require ammo), phasing the logis with non-triaging carriers out once the first wave had been brought down to just the triggers. Once the two carriers are on the field, two dreads would warp in, and the t3 would paint and web. The carriers did better damage than the dreads typically.

Also, sieged dreads can't be repped, and do pretty lackluster dps unsieged with much lower utility than T3 or BSs, so, really aren't terribly useful. Dreads are only used because you need two for the maximal escalation.

I'm confused by a number of things in here. No one ever mentioned unseiged dreads. Also, painting and webbing the escalation waves is easy.. one loki can do it, if you don't have many dreads. Two lokis will do it very easily.. and they don't have to go more than 500m from the carrier. One loki might have to go out like 5 or 10km to grab the last escalation sleeper, but two will keep them all locked down just fine. Site spawns are different, but that's subcaps all the way anyways. No real need to web/paint.

Also.. you keep talking about how the triage carrier isn't doing any dps... neither are your 2-3 logis. So.. replacing 3 characters with 1 is bad in terms of efficiency? What?

Finally, you don't need to clear the site to salvage. The sentries never switch targets, so if you send in the triage carrier first, it'll keep them the entire time. Then, if you do your four escalation waves, and then kill off the first actual site wave except for the trigger, your noctis comes in, and the carrier just turns on reppers on the noctis.. one sleeper frigate or cruiser (depending on the site) can't break that.

[Izawwlgood]

No one ever mentioned unseiged dreads.

And the only thing they can hit effectively is webbed and painted Guardians.

Two lokis will do it very easily.. and they don't have to go more than 500m from the carrier. One loki might have to go out like 5 or 10km to grab the last escalation sleeper

False. How do you propose a loki webs a Guardian while remaining within 500m of the triaged carrier? Guardians orbit at a variety of ranges, including 80km out.

No real need to web/paint.

Now I'm confused; how are you proposing a sieged dread hit something that is both orbiting, and smaller than a capital? Guardians are really big as far as BSs go, I seem to recall, but sieged dreads are suffering from both resolution and tracking penalties here. The Guardians are also incredibly fast; unwebbed, sieged dreads can't even hit the Guardians.

Also.. you keep talking about how the triage carrier isn't doing any dps... neither are your 2-3 logis. So.. replacing 3 characters with 1 is bad in terms of efficiency? What?

Actually our Logis often flew a rack of lights for dealing with the frigate sized Sleepers. But, as I said, that's why we phase back the logi's in favor of non-triaging carriers; reps and damage.

Finally, you don't need to clear the site to salvage. The sentries never switch targets, so if you send in the triage carrier first, it'll keep them the entire time.

I never checked this, but why do you suggest doing this? Why not just clear the site and return in salvage ships to clear it out? Once you've gotten your four escalations, you can't get more.

[Swivelguy]

I think you two should stop arguing and talk about how wormholes are happy and awesome and cool.

[Izawwlgood]

We were making approximately 80-90 million per person per hour in them. We made around 60bn in a month at reasonable activity. Not bad for a 15 man group with no production lines occurring.

T3 production was also insanely profitable.

[Alasseo]

No one ever mentioned unseiged dreads.

And the only thing they can hit effectively is webbed and painted Guardians.

Two lokis will do it very easily.. and they don't have to go more than 500m from the carrier. One loki might have to go out like 5 or 10km to grab the last escalation sleeper

False. How do you propose a loki webs a Guardian while remaining within 500m of the triaged carrier? Guardians orbit at a variety of ranges, including 80km out.

No real need to web/paint.

Now I'm confused; how are you proposing a sieged dread hit something that is both orbiting, and smaller than a capital? Guardians are really big as far as BSs go, I seem to recall, but sieged dreads are suffering from both resolution and tracking penalties here. The Guardians are also incredibly fast; unwebbed, sieged dreads can't even hit the Guardians.

Also.. you keep talking about how the triage carrier isn't doing any dps... neither are your 2-3 logis. So.. replacing 3 characters with 1 is bad in terms of efficiency? What?

Actually our Logis often flew a rack of lights for dealing with the frigate sized Sleepers. But, as I said, that's why we phase back the logi's in favor of non-triaging carriers; reps and damage.

Finally, you don't need to clear the site to salvage. The sentries never switch targets, so if you send in the triage carrier first, it'll keep them the entire time.

I never checked this, but why do you suggest doing this? Why not just clear the site and return in salvage ships to clear it out? Once you've gotten your four escalations, you can't get more.

Still dont understand why you go on about unseiged dreads. The spawn point for escalation waves is fixed. Make a bookmark there with a zephyr. Once the site is spawned, you are able to warp straight to the bookmark. If done right, you will be in the middle of the escalation spawn. When they start 2000m from you, it is quite easy to web them. Fedweb means 35km web range before skirmish links.

I do not propose that a seiged dread hit the regular site spawns. Thats for the subcaps. T3 or maruader, whatever.

Also, I understand you switch out logis.. But if you can have 1 triage carrier replace.them, then those other two characters can be in dps ahipa from the start...

If you just do the escalation waves, the site will not despawn for 3 days. You escalate 3.times, and on the third day, clear the site.

[Izawwlgood]

Still dont understand why you go on about unseiged dreads. The spawn point for escalation waves is fixed. Make a bookmark there with a zephyr. Once the site is spawned, you are able to warp straight to the bookmark. If done right, you will be in the middle of the escalation spawn. When they start 2000m from you, it is quite easy to web them. Fedweb means 35km web range before skirmish links.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I directly addressed sieged dreads in my last post.
As for spawn point, it doesn't matter; when you warp capitals in, the Guardians appear at a random spot quite far off (250km or so). They then orbit at a variety of ranges, between 20 and 80km. If you want to drop your sieges ON the current cluster, that's fine, but any unwebbed Guardian will fly off the cluster to orbit at whatever range it feels like orbiting at.

Also, I understand you switch out logis.. But if you can have 1 triage carrier replace.them, then those other two characters can be in dps ahipa from the start...

We've been over this already; a triaged carrier cannot output dps, and two untriaged carriers DO, and can rep the entire fleet. Furthermore, the initial capital spawn is 6 Guardians, which on top of the 4-6 Sleeper BSs already present, are simply too dicy for t3's.

If you just do the escalation waves, the site will not despawn for 3 days. You escalate 3.times, and on the third day, clear the site.

I don't understand why you think breaking up the escalation waves and completing the site into two different activities is useful. Can you explain why you think there's an advantage to coming in and clearing the escalation waves, then coming 3 days later and clearing the site? It sort of sounds like you don't understand how these escalations work. Out of curiosity, have you ever run Sleeper sites with a capital?

[Alasseo]

It is not random. It is the same point, every time, in every site.

With a triage carrier, it is not dicy; even if it was, an easy solution is to simply do the escalation before you clear the first wave.

Finally, the reason you split it up is because you can run the full four escalation waves.three times. After downtime, the site resets. You can then reescalate. I think we can agree that 12 waves are.better than 4, yeah?

Every day, exactly how I describe.

[Izawwlgood]

After downtime, the site resets. You can then reescalate. I think we can agree that 12 waves are.better than 4, yeah?

I had no idea this happened. That absolutely changes the MO to exactly what you described. I would still suggest using >2 non-triaged carriers to rep one another and any support t3 on the field though, as that way you don't sacrifice dps, but meh.

[mike-l]

So I went into w-space for the first time. Got there, looked around, saw that it was an occupied system, but figured I'd try to hang out by the wormhole and keep scanning.

Scanned down like 9 LADAR sites in a row, got excited upon finding a wormhole, which I then realized was the one I just came through, then finally found a magnetronic site. Hop on over to it, and realize... crap, I came through in a frigate because I figured I'd just die. Well, self fulfilling

[Izawwlgood]

FYI, if you hop into an occupied wormhole, and no one is actively hunting you down, you can totally be malicious and scan down their sites, visit them, and quickly warp off. They'll despawn in 3 days.

[BlackSails]

After downtime, the site resets. You can then reescalate. I think we can agree that 12 waves are.better than 4, yeah?

I had no idea this happened. That absolutely changes the MO to exactly what you described. I would still suggest using >2 non-triaged carriers to rep one another and any support t3 on the field though, as that way you don't sacrifice dps, but meh.

2 carriers using fighters is like 2k dps, less if you use sentries. A single moros is around 14k.

Also, its probably better to use vigilants or vindicators to do the webbing - 90% webs are 4x the power of 60% webs. (Or have a single loki to make it easier for the vindis to chase things down, since they dont get range bonuses). Vindis can also output more dps than a carrier after they tackle something.

[mike-l]

FYI, if you hop into an occupied wormhole, and no one is actively hunting you down, you can totally be malicious and scan down their sites, visit them, and quickly warp off. They'll despawn in 3 days.

Interesting Though I generally don't do things that give me 0 benefit just to harm others. (Now, the benefit to me doesn't have to be very big at all... right now 'figuring out if I'll die or not' is satisfactory benefit)

[Izawwlgood]

After downtime, the site resets. You can then reescalate. I think we can agree that 12 waves are.better than 4, yeah?

I had no idea this happened. That absolutely changes the MO to exactly what you described. I would still suggest using >2 non-triaged carriers to rep one another and any support t3 on the field though, as that way you don't sacrifice dps, but meh.

2 carriers using fighters is like 2k dps, less if you use sentries. A single moros is around 14k.

Also, its probably better to use vigilants or vindicators to do the webbing - 90% webs are 4x the power of 60% webs. (Or have a single loki to make it easier for the vindis to chase things down, since they dont get range bonuses). Vindis can also output more dps than a carrier after they tackle something.

But the Moros requires paint and webbing. So that's at least 2, possibly three toons required to get a Guardian slow and fat enough for the Dread to do full damage. Granted, the web/painter can also output damage, but it's really dividing that ~14k + ~800 over two toons. It's still more than a single carrier, but since you have two carriers on the field anyway, and they can handle repping one another and T3s, there's no reason to have one of them in Triage.

[mike-l]

About to go steal someone's wormhole magnemteric sites... wish me luck! (And Profit!)

Edit: Lol, Swivelguy found me and killed me.

[halbarad]

About to go steal someone's wormhole magnemteric sites... wish me luck! (And Profit!)

Edit: Lol, Swivelguy found me and killed me.

XKCD, bringing people and their internet spaceships together.

[Izawwlgood]

Edit: Lol, Swivelguy found me and killed me.

Whoa, small universe

[mike-l]

Edit: Lol, Swivelguy found me and killed me.

Whoa, small universe

Yeah. At first I assumed I had actually stumbled into his wormhole, but it turns out he was just roaming as well. I saw his probes and beat it, but then my idiot friend on vent was like 'what about the loot!', and me, being a bigger idiot, waited a bit then came back.

Was a good fight, I popped all his drones and neither of us could break the others tank, but he had friends and I didn't, so ultimately they showed up and I died. (Didn't help that I had warped away from my drones by accident shortly before, or that I wasn't PVP fit at all). I'm a total noob at this game, and that was great fun!

I did manage to grab about 20 mil in loot before this, so, while not covering my very expensively fitted drake, it did lessen the loss a bit.

[Swivelguy]

Yep, here it is: http://tl-eve.com/kb/index.php/kill_detail/4217/, the fruits of scanning through various wormholes for several hours that night.

I wasn't sure if I would be able to break a drake in my vexor, so I went for it to find out. It turned out very close, as mike got serious about shooting my drones right as I reached his peak shield recharge, his hardeners already neuted off. I should have let my armor dip lower before starting to rep myself up, to keep his focus on shooting me. Once all my drones were dead, we chatted for a while as I orbited and I called in a couple friends to finish him off. Total damage taken: 94,671.

We found 3 carriers plexing in a C4 last night along with a couple battleships, but 2 of them managed to warp before we landed for the tackle: http://tl-eve.com/kb/index.php/kill_related/4533/

[mike-l]

I called in a couple friends to finish him off.

Where do I get some of those?

[Swivelguy]

Where do I get some of those?

http://kairos.lostalliance.net/viewforum.php?f=7

[mike-l]

Working on the skills

[Daimon]

I played Eve online about a summer ago. Had the two-week trial, bought the game, and just mined for a small corporation I was in. Yeah, it was kind of fun playing the game, even if all I did was mine. I had just gotton the weakest and my first Exhumer, and things were going well. However, this new thing called Incarna was about to come out. Now, my computer sucks. It gets 3-12 fps in World of Warcraft. When Incarna came out, my computer couldn't run it. Had to cancel my subscription, instead of getting a new computer I know.

Even if all I did was mine, I had fun. Also, I have some feeling that people don't like Caldaris. What's wrong with us?

[halbarad]

I played Eve online about a summer ago. Had the two-week trial, bought the game, and just mined for a small corporation I was in. Yeah, it was kind of fun playing the game, even if all I did was mine. I had just gotton the weakest and my first Exhumer, and things were going well. However, this new thing called Incarna was about to come out. Now, my computer sucks. It gets 3-12 fps in World of Warcraft. When Incarna came out, my computer couldn't run it. Had to cancel my subscription, instead of getting a new computer I know.

Even if all I did was mine, I had fun. Also, I have some feeling that people don't like Caldaris. What's wrong with us?

Things have improved a lot since the incarna launch. They've added the option to ignore the captains quarters and return to the simple ship spinning hangar (with added spin counter).


Nothing really wrong with Caldari other than lots of new players are told to train them since it's easy mode for PVE in the Drake and Tengu.

[Izawwlgood]

Caldari ships are ugly.