Starcraft 2 : The Dune II Clone

[Will]

The important thing to point out here is that Protoss gets no love

[mike-l]

The important thing to point out here is that Protoss gets no love

That's party because protoss got to play with 2 base allins for so long, zerg and terran had to learn how to play long games long before protoss players did.

But really, GSL Ro8 is 5 protoss, 3 terran, 0 zerg. Not shedding any tears for Protoss.

[Game_boy]

The important thing to point out here is that Protoss gets no love

The only Protosses that are interesting to watch are Parting (storm micro) and Hero (multitasking). The rest of them just go for colossus in every matchup and 1A their deathballs, which wins games if you do it safely but doesn't get people excited about you.

[Xeio]

The important thing to point out here is that Protoss gets no love

The only Protosses that are interesting to watch are Parting (storm micro) and Hero (multitasking).

No WhiteRa love? Unless maybe you're talking about watching only in tournaments which I have no idea about.

[Jesse]

Also Naniwa is super interesting to watch, dude has some siiiiick play. Parting's still my love though.

[Game_boy]

White-Ra just isn't good enough. I can't get hyped about special tactics when they don't actually work.

Parting is the first Protoss I've seen that I think - I want to play that matchup exactly like that guy plays it. 4+ observers out on the map, storm flanks, perfect storm placement which I thought was impossible against MKP micro, and, most importantly, not dying to small things.

Naniwa's micro is great in some rare moments but it's almost always because he screwed up early and is holding on for 5-10mins more than he should (I'm thinking Naniwa vs Leenock in BlizzCup here).

[Will]

Speaking of exactly this conversation, there's some new balance changes in the pipeline: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/530817 ... _2012#blog

I like the new idea of having smaller balance changes tested with a custom map instead of having a full-on patch. Also, queens getting more energy. And observers building faster!

[Game_boy]

Overlord change is good.

Observer change and queen change aren't good for the same reason: SC2 is a game of strategic choices. Keep up injects OR spread creep. Use that robo for immortals OR observers. If you make it easier to do both without missing out, all that diversity is reduced to one standard, optimal play. We'll see all Zergs start spreading creep immediately with no reason to do otherwise, and that's boring.

[Sytri]

Can someone copy/paste please? Can't get at the link through the firewall here

[EvanED]

I was too lazy to put in some formatting, but here you go:

Spoiler:

We’ve just published a new multiplayer map called "Antiga Shipyard (1.4.3 Balance v2.0)", in which we’re testing a few small balance changes to StarCraft II. Our hope is to bring the changes to the game in a week or so, without a full patch. Here’s the situation:

Globally, all matchups below pro-level are pretty balanced.
We aren’t currently seeing any problems with non-pro-level matchups, but as always, we’re watching them very carefully on a weekly basis.
We want changes we're making to balance at this time to be small, strategic adjustments that will only affect pro-level play.

Zerg at the pro-level are struggling a bit to scout effectively in the early game.
This is tricky to balance, because we do not want to hinder sneaky strategies or tactical early play vs. zerg.
Our goal here is to improve zerg scouting, but not to the point where other races feel like they can’t or shouldn’t make any strategic early moves vs. zerg.

Zerg at the pro-level are slightly too susceptible to all-in rushes.
We want to make creep spread a little bit easier to counter hellions in ZvT.
We want to make the general zerg defense slightly stronger in the early game.

Protoss at the pro-level are doing well, but not at the very top of the pro-level.
At this time, we’re keeping a very close eye on this, and preparing to make any necessary adjustments.

We are closely watching TvP to see if the offensive capabilities of terran in the early/mid game becomes too much, or if late game strength of protoss becomes too much.
We aren’t making a change to affect this now, but it’s very near the top of our list of things we’re watching.


Here’s what we’re testing:

Overlord movement speed increased to 0.586, up from 0.4687. Upgraded overlord movement speed unchanged.

This is to help pro players scout a little easier in the early game, and to help zerg on larger maps. We feel that this is the right way to encourage the best zerg players to scout in the early game, without giving them something that allows them to see everything most of the time. We will be watching the public testing very carefully.

Queen starting energy increased to 50, up from 25.

This change is to help zerg deal with early- and mid-game all-in rushes, and timing pushes. Each queen will have either one more chain of creep tumors, or slightly faster transfusions. During public testing, we’ll see whether zerg end up with too many creep tumors early on, or the general upgrade in defensive capabilities make it too difficult for other races to attempt any early pressure. Feedback in this area from players who have played the mod will be greatly appreciated.

Observer build time decreased to 30, down from 40.

Protoss players at the pro level currently have all the tools they need to counter various early- to mid-game threats. However, in order to see them utilize the correct tools in various scenarios, we’re decreasing the build time of observers. This will give protoss slightly earlier scouting, as well as less time spent tying up the Robotics Facility while building observers. we feel this small change will result in protoss players utilizing their other units a bit more efficiently.

Please play the map "Antiga Shipyard (1.4.3 Balance v2.0)", and join our feedback thread in our StarCraft II discussion forum to give us any feedback you have on these changes.

[Izawwlgood]

Is spreading creep an effective way to counter hellions? I don't understand how; just slows them from getting to your base?

[Spambot5546]

On creep speedlings can outrun (and thus surround) hellions pretty easily, whereas off creep the hellions have a better chance of keeping zerglings lined up.

[Will]

Zerglings move faster on creep; having better creep spread earlier can make it easier for Zerglings to hold off Hellion pressure, especially before they get speed.

Keep up injects OR spread creep.

See, the problem is, there is no situation where spreading creep is preferable to keeping up your injects. There are very few situations where there is *any* reason to miss an inject (unless you need the queen to defend an immediate threat). Missing an inject basically puts you behind, period. Starting queens with more energy just allows Zerg to spread creep a little bit more effectively than they do now; that hardly amounts to a massive shift in Zerg strategy.
Same with Observers: having Obs come out a little quicker doesn't really reduce the choices that have to be made. Your Robo just finished: do you build an observer or do you build an immortal? If you've spotted a dark shrine, you're probably going to want to chrono out an obs so you can defend. Maybe you need an immortal for defense soon? The Robo can't build both at the same time; the choice is still there, but you're a little more flexible because the observer finishes ten seconds sooner.

[Izawwlgood]

Huh, I normally don't push the speed upgrade until a bit later, after at least armor and range upgrade. What's a typical zerg opening build for non-rushing?

[Yakk]

Speed lets you pick when to fight, and when not to fight. Speed gives you map control, in that unless they can produce an army large enough to defeat yours at every location, you can destroy any under-defended location.

Armor just makes you stronger when you do fight.

Plus, against ranged enemies, speed lets you close to melee range faster, which means less damage from them -- probably a larger edge in damage reduction than the point of armor in many cases.

[mike-l]

See, the problem is, there is no situation where spreading creep is preferable to keeping up your injects.

That's kind of like saying there's no reason to ever scan instead of call a mule, or no reason to ever chronoboost upgrades. Good creep spread can easily be worth 6 lings.

But even aside from the value of creep, there are times when you just won't be able to spend the larva, because you are expanding/teching/building more queens, and if you inject you might not be able to get back below 3 larva for 30-40 seconds, making your inject worthless. This comes up, for example, when you go for a fast 3 base when facing a nexus/CC first build.

[Game_boy]

Keep up injects OR spread creep.

See, the problem is, there is no situation where spreading creep is preferable to keeping up your injects.

Some pros do miss one inject early to do this, and then they have a choice of doing it defensively (connecting main and nat) or towards their opponent. Some pros agree with you and do not. I don't know which is strategically best, but I'd like to see it played out in the metagame fully.

The very best players will align their build so that the inject is not needed, i.e they only need the smaller amount of larva to spend their money at that time. Injects are not money, they are a bottleneck between money and units. Would you still say an inject is better then?

[Izawwlgood]

I have to say, reading this thread is almost embarrassing for me. In the last 3 posts, you have each mentioned something I absolutely never considered.

Whelp, as long as you keep learning.

[Nylonathatep]

Why do you have to choose between injecting vs creep spread when you make more then 1 queen per hatch?

The power of creep gives you lots of map vision, and also you can spread creep on opponent's expansion so as long as he's not zerg, he can't expand there unless he kills the creep tumors around it...

TLO demonstrates the power of creeping in this game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlsCGdauWog

[yurell]

Why do you have to choose between injecting vs creep spread when you make more then 1 queen per hatch?

Given that the reason they provided was that zerg is too vulnerable to early-game all-ins (especially hellions), perhaps their thought is that we need the creep spread before the third queen?

[Nylonathatep]

Why do you have to choose between injecting vs creep spread when you make more then 1 queen per hatch?

Given that the reason they provided was that zerg is too vulnerable to early-game all-ins (especially hellions), perhaps their thought is that we need the creep spread before the third queen?

No.. you make more queens for early defense... especially when two queens can effectively block off the ramp. They have range and last way longer vs hellions then lings. They can also shoot air so that's a good emergency defense against surprise banshee attack.

[Izawwlgood]

Queens aren't terribly sturdy though? 4 control and 300m seems less useful in the early game for what amounts to a mobile weak turret?

[Spambot5546]

That can inject larva, spawn creep, and heal.

[Izawwlgood]

So if rushed, do you have them sit on a ramp and transfuse one another?

Seems their dps output wouldn't really be sufficient?

[yurell]

No.. you make more queens for early defense... especially when two queens can effectively block off the ramp. They have range and last way longer vs hellions then lings. They can also shoot air so that's a good emergency defense against surprise banshee attack.

So your solution to hellion is two queens before expand?

[Koa]

"After initial testing and feedback, we have removed the Queen starting energy increase and we have decided to modify:

Queen anti-ground weapon attack range increased from 3 to 5."

Having tried it out, the overlord speed change is pretty big too. Not only can they reach the opponent's main faster, they can also escape faster. There doesn't seem to be much of a point to drone scouting the opponent's main anymore with overlords being that fast.

[Nylonathatep]

No.. you make more queens for early defense... especially when two queens can effectively block off the ramp. They have range and last way longer vs hellions then lings. They can also shoot air so that's a good emergency defense against surprise banshee attack.

So your solution to hellion is two queens before expand?

My question is.... when do you expand? Most conservative builds go pool 13, hatch 14... while you'll always have the feeling that you are vunerable and naked playing zerg... that should be like 1.5 minute into the game... how do you get hellion rushed in 1.5 minute?

The first hellion usually comes in at the 4 minute mark... your second hatch should be already done along with spawning pool and your first saturated. you would have at least 1 queen per hatch...

Zerg is a very reactive race.... It's a completely different way to play sc2 then playing protoss or terran. You see what units your opponent is making and then you make the unit that counters it. How you get an edge is that you should have huge economy. That's why scouting is so important because you get to see the units your opponent is making before they arrive at your base and do damage. If you only see the hellions rolled into your base and then react.. it's already too late.

That's how I always play zerg... send the overlord you spawn with to scout... you send your 10th drone to scout... what to look for is very important... 1) look for spawning location... he spawns far... you are safer to expand... 2) if your drone sense something weird while arriving at his base (absolutely no structures at all, 1 forge and no expansion then that's a huge sign of cheese it's harder with terran because they can wall in.. that's why I'll send my 9th drone instead.. your overlord can also fly in and get to see everything if you are lucky)

A hellion build would have the following ... a wallin with a reactor ... you can confirm that by sacrificing the overlord into his base...just 2 supply depot and a reactor could also mean a lot of things including 3 rax, or a surprise drop play with medivacs... what you want to do is use lings to control the watch towers, have 1 ling outside his base to see when he's moving out and what unit he's moving out with, and another checkout out hidden expos. That's 4 lings at the most with 2 lavae. Don't forget to spread overlord outside your base so you can see the banshee/medivac drop.

All this time... assuming you don't see units coming out... you should be hitting your injects, droning, and taking expansion hard... I would also make an evolution chamber at the 4:30 mark and make 1 spore at each base just in case.

You can also look at spanishwa's build... with some clever spine crawler placement he shuts down hellion harass.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3jamA3YeCc A pretty cool game of TLO shutting down hellion/maurader mech play with just ling/bling

[Koa]

I was kind of curious how the queen's animation would change for the new range, as the animation is actually the claws striking the target rather than a projectile. Turns out that they didn't change the animation at all.

If they decide to go with the change they'll have to use the antiair projectile animation, and probably switch to claws when a unit gets close enough like hydras and roaches do. It's just testing, but I'm not sure why they didn't do that in the first place. It'd only take a few minutes and would help demonstrate their seemingly not-so-planned idea.

[Bakemaster]

If anyone's still awake, we're approaching the grand finals in the UC Davis open LAN. Spanishiwa just eliminated Ruxin in the loser's bracket and is about to face State; the winner of that match faces Mewtwo to get through the loser's bracket and into the grand finals match against Suppy. Since it's double elimination, whoever faces Suppy will have to win two bo5 matches; Suppy only will have to win one bo5. Streaming here: http://www.twitch.tv/ucdstarcraft

[Will]

Announced features for HotS! http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5366967/
I'm especially excited about unranked matchmaking. Want to test a new build against humans, off-race, or do the funday monday? Right now you have to risk precious ladder points...I know for a fact I'd play more if I didn't have to risk dropping down on the ladder every time I play.

[Yakk]

Dialbo 3 has broken my SC2.

[Menacing Spike]

Why didn't they add always online and cash shops to SC2 yet?

[Game_boy]

Why didn't they add always online and cash shops to SC2 yet?

They did nearly add always online, it's just you get a few days grace period after a login to be offline.

Cash shops are patch 1.5 coming June. A leaked internal timeline shows it should have been done in early 2011, they just screwed up.

The real question is, as a mainly single player game, why does Diablo III require online? (I know why, just saying) Everyone could have been playing the moment they got the game, no errors from overloaded servers.

[Coin]

The real question is, as a mainly single player game, why does Diablo III require online? (I know why, just saying) Everyone could have been playing the moment they got the game, no errors from overloaded servers.

I'm quite sure that the problem of duping has something to do with it. You couldn't operate an item shop if everyone is duping items. I also think that they are heartily tired of the pirating problem and so are trying their best to find ways of stopping it while avoiding the alienation of the bulk of their customers. I think that comparatively few will have trouble with the "always online" requirement. To be sure, those who do have trouble with it will make themselves heard more than those who don't have a problem.

[BlackSails]

Duping isnt the reason. The sole reason is piracy. By forcing online-only, you make it so that to play a pirated copy, you need a pirated sever. And blizzard has been very very vicious in going after every nonofficial server.

Duping could be solved by making offline characters offline/LAN only, and never allowed on bnet. Allow one way copying of online characters to offline characters. Done.


And I fucking hate the always online. Particularly during peak hours (like right now) lag is awful. Im playing a single player game. Why the fuck do I have to deal with lag?

[Spambot5546]

No, it's duping.

You have to take the technical constraints into consideration here. To completely rule out any possibility of duping or cheating they had to move the entirety of the game's mechanics to the server side. Where in Diablo 2 a monster's drop might be determined locally and then the server is notified (I don't actually know off the top of my head which processes are server side compared to client side on closed b.net, just that it's enough to be exploitable) in Diablo 3 those decisions are all made by the server, and then your client is informed of what happened.

Basically, D3 is networked like an MMO. As a result in order for them to allow you to play locally they would have to distribute server emulators, a program that would run on your computer and pretend to be battle.net so that your client could get all its information from there. As D3's server software is no doubt optimized to run on server hardware they can't just throw together a server emulator to distribute, so they would have to recode everything. In essence making a single player for Diablo 3 would be nearly as costly as making a Diablo 4.

That said, they could at least give you the option of making private games (ones that will only ever include you) so that you can pause.

[Will]

in Diablo 3 those decisions are all made by the server, and then your client is informed of what happened.

Yeah, no, it's perfectly possible to do this locally. Lots of games use the model where single player is actually running both a server and client locally on the machine (see: virtually every FPS made in the last two decades) without performance issues. There's no technical reason D3 can't do this too.

[Spambot5546]

As did Diablo 2. The point isn't that it's impossible to have the client perform these processes, it's that Diablo 3 was designed from the ground up to optimize those processes to be handled by the server. As a result of that design it most likely won't run on your local machine.

[Menacing Spike]

As did Diablo 2. The point isn't that it's impossible to have the client perform these processes, it's that Diablo 3 was designed from the ground up to optimize those processes to be handled by the server. As a result of that design it most likely won't run on your local machine.

I wonder what OS they are running on, if any.

[Spambot5546]

Probably Unix. That's what you usually use for servers.