Occupy Wall Street - Spreading. Check your town.

[Роберт]

Furthermore, it sends the wrong message. Occupiers stayed home instead of going to work / school today. Occupy already has the image of "lazy". (correct or wrong, this is a major complaint of Occupy and their demands). This strike will only exacerbates the image of laziness.

I have very similar concerns, even though I thought the "occupy x" movements often made a lot of sense.

[Izawwlgood]

The effect of enough people opting out of the system on that day can show, if critical mass is attained, that the cooperation of the masses is required lest shit break down.

In a time when the economy is just starting to recover and people are still struggling to find employment, I feel having a 'don't buy anything' day, to protest a lack of jobs and unequal distribution of wealth, doesn't really actually help anyone. Same with a 'don't goto work' day. Cooperation of the masses? All it means is that a bunch of people might get fired, and a bunch of new people might get hired. But,

Also, a decent number of people from the Occupy Wall Street movement have decided to run for office themselves

This, now THIS, is the single most positive thing I've seen from the entire movement. That's fantastic news, and I hope these candidates bring some good ideas to the table and get people talking, seriously, about reforming various stuffs and things.

[kiklion]

I feel a real protest by occupy, would not be to not show up for work, but to not purchase what they don't need.

Most businesses make their money by selling your time and their products, they take a risk because they pay for your time even if no one else purchases it. Go to work, collect that money and make them lose on their risk by not paying the premium for their services.

Randomizer wrote:
Also, a decent number of people from the Occupy Wall Street movement have decided to run for office themselves

This, now THIS, is the single most positive thing I've seen from the entire movement. That's fantastic news, and I hope these candidates bring some good ideas to the table and get people talking, seriously, about reforming various stuffs and things.

I second this notion.

[Triangle_Man]

I agree.

I admit that part of my disillusionment with the movement came from their tactics and how those tactics became the focus of the discussion rather than what they were protesting against. With these moves, this movement feels like a legitimate protest movement, and hopefully they'll be able to recover enough of the public's good will to get what their message across this time around!

[lutzj]

The effect of enough people opting out of the system on that day can show, if critical mass is attained, that the cooperation of the masses is required lest shit break down.

It's not about a long term effect, it's about showing what solidarity can accomplish in the short term and offering a data point from which long term detriment can be extrapolated. "Oh, was it difficult when x% of your employees didn't show up to work and you saw a y% decrease in business over a single day? Wow, I guess it's better for you if we actually feel we have anything to gain by participating - 'cause right now we don't!"

That's like crashing my car into your house as a threat to crash my car into your house every day until you give into my demands. Everybody involved (employers, employees, consumers, etc.) knows that general strikes are unsustainable once things like gasoline and water run low, and that everybody is better off with no strikes.

[Panonadin]

I saw a commercial the other day on one of my rare TV watching sessions that was promoted by Bank of America. Without looking it up and going into detail it basically broke down into, "Avoid shopping at big stores AT ALL this weekend and bring back small business".

Maybe someone who knows more than me can shed some more light on it, or you can google it if you want. But wouldn't that have quite an effect on big business? I know for things like gasoline and your job you eventually don't have a choice but to cave, but it seems like the above would work for a longer period of time and maybe get a message out.

I just don't personally understand what me staying home from work would do unless my company couldn't just go out and replace me, then I would be out of a job and explaining that to the next employer would probably make it so I stayed that way.

[Randomizer]

You could talk to your co-workers about this. If everybody stays home on that day, they can't fire all of you.

Also, even if you don't do that, and are doing it on your own, you could call in sick. I don't think most companies require a doctor's not for one sick day. How would they know you were doing it as part of OWS unless you tell them?

But the Bank of America campaign sounds good. After doing the general strike and not buying anything, being more choosy about who you DO shop from could make a big difference. And the general strike would be a good day to talk to people about that. If you don't stay at home, but head out and about, and talk to a few people you meet on the street about shopping at smaller stores, and a lot of people talk to just a few people, it could make a huge difference.

[Izawwlgood]

Also, even if you don't do that, and are doing it on your own, you could call in sick. I don't think most companies require a doctor's not for one sick day. How would they know you were doing it as part of OWS unless you tell them?

While this potentially prevents you from getting fired, doesn't this also entirely invalidate the purpose of a strike?

If you don't stay at home, but head out and about, and talk to a few people you meet on the street about shopping at smaller stores, and a lot of people talk to just a few people, it could make a huge difference.

I'm confused; are you suggesting that merely talking to people is going to make a big difference, and that one cannot talk to people shopping at big business?

I'm completely on board with shopping at local businesses, especially given that whole statistic about how many times a dollar recirculates when spent at a local business vs. say, Walmart. But lets not get all knee-jerky here and say 'All we need to do is talk to people to make a difference!', because that's precisely what people hid behind as one of OWS's main accomplishments.

[KnightExemplar]

You could talk to your co-workers about this. If everybody stays home on that day, they can't fire all of you.

Also, even if you don't do that, and are doing it on your own, you could call in sick. I don't think most companies require a doctor's not for one sick day. How would they know you were doing it as part of OWS unless you tell them?

Option 1 is far more pleasing to me than Option 2. Neither are workable though.

Option 2 seems to negate any point of a protest. If I'm protesting something, the very least I want to do is tell people I'm protesting. Otherwise, the effort was wasted. Option 1 isn't an option because no one in my office supports Occupy (I'd go as far as say that two people at most, out of the ~30 coworkers I know personally, actually looked at Occupy in a somewhat favorable light. And that is including me). At least in my area, the Occupy movement is looked down upon, although I'm probably in a more conservative area than most.

But the Bank of America campaign sounds good. After doing the general strike and not buying anything, being more choosy about who you DO shop from could make a big difference. And the general strike would be a good day to talk to people about that. If you don't stay at home, but head out and about, and talk to a few people you meet on the street about shopping at smaller stores, and a lot of people talk to just a few people, it could make a huge difference.

I know that the switch your bank account campaign was mildly successful in deterring debit card fees last year. Also, the GoDaddy protest during SOPA was quite successful. However, a general strike against "large business" would be rather difficult, due to how many large businesses we actually interact with. Unless you plan to stop shopping at Amazon, stop using Google, then not buy any songs from iTunes or Google Play, then stop using your Cell Phone (which is probably using one of the four national carriers), etc. etc.

Just trying to hurt "big business" without a target will likely fail, because there are too many big businesses to attack. The campaign will need to be more focused.

[Panonadin]

I know that the switch your bank account campaign was mildly successful in deterring debit card fees last year. Also, the GoDaddy protest during SOPA was quite successful. However, a general strike against "large business" would be rather difficult, due to how many large businesses we actually interact with. Unless you plan to stop shopping at Amazon, stop using Google, then not buy any songs from iTunes or Google Play, then stop using your Cell Phone (which is probably using one of the four national carriers), etc. etc.

Just trying to hurt "big business" without a target will likely fail, because there are too many big businesses to attack. The campaign will need to be more focused.

But, 3 out of the four options you gave are perfectly reasonable for most.

The cell phone one is a bit tricky because it's possibly your only means of communication.

Also, I'm not sure the BoA campaign was about hurting big business, more like shifting the focus of them being one of them. However, I just meant to use it as an example of how you could organize something like that to get a message out. I for one could completely stop shopping at XMart stores and have already switched to a credit union.

[lutzj]

Just trying to hurt "big business" without a target will likely fail, because there are too many big businesses to attack. The campaign will need to be more focused.

The main reason it'll fail is that new big businesses will spring up to replace failing ones, because larger companies tend to be more efficient.

Question anyone can answer: Where do you draw the line between "big business" and "small business," and why does this distinction matter to you?

[CorruptUser]

Just trying to hurt "big business" without a target will likely fail, because there are too many big businesses to attack. The campaign will need to be more focused.

The main reason it'll fail is that new big businesses will spring up to replace failing ones, because larger companies tend to be more efficient.

Question anyone can answer: Where do you draw the line between "big business" and "small business," and why does this distinction matter to you?

15+ employees for medium, 100+ for big business, according to the US. 15 is when EEOC and other things kick in, and 100 is when more rules kick in.

Personally, I see 'big business' as any business large enough to be able to be able to negotiate non-market equilibrium prices. E.g, if the market price of corn is $50/ton, I can't sell my corn for $51/ton, but if I own all the farms in the state I could. Depending on the type of product, the point at which a business becomes 'big' will vary. Even if I own all the corn in Iowa, I could only raise the price of corn by the additional amount it costs to import it (not taking in to account substitutes). But if I own all the power stations in just a couple of counties, I can start jacking up prices as that's much harder to import.

[ShootTheChicken]

NYC Council Members sue city, police, to criticize response to Occupy protests.

[Randomizer]

May Day is tomorrow (or today, technically - depends on your time zone). There's a list of locations here. I'll be heading down to my local Occupy myself.

And apparently Occupy is trying to get pro-Occupy commercials on television: How to get an Occupy commercial on “The O’Reilly Factor”

Here’s how it works. Anybody can create a 30-second video and post it to LoudSauce. Viewers who like it can donate whatever they want towards getting the spot on TV. Using GoogleTVAds, which finds unused TV ad space at bargain rates a day or two in advance of airing, LoudSauce finds the ad a home. Any ad that raises at least $1,000 will get on TV somewhere at least once, they say.
...
The deadline for submission is May 21 – see here for details.

NYC Council Members sue city, police, to criticize response to Occupy protests.

Sweet. Maybe some legal action and holding these people accountable will help stop this nonsense. It's especially encouraging to see that it's the members of the city council that are bringing the lawsuit. At least there's some politicians that seem to care about the people!

[KnightExemplar]

Well, the May 1st protest was on the news last night. So I guess this is time for Occupy Mk II.

Don't screw it up this time people.

[Iulus Cofield]

Don't screw it up this time people.

Too late.

May Day in Seattle: Black-clad protesters smash bank, shop windows

Downtown Seattle erupted in chaos Tuesday as black-clad May Day demonstrators marauded through the downtown shopping district, smashing plate glass windows at banks and retail outlets, spray-painting cars and slashing tires...

Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn signed an emergency order authorizing police to confiscate sticks, tire irons, hammers and other implements that might be used for continued destruction,

Image, "Protesters smash shop windows during May Day protests in Seattle.":

Spoiler:

May Day Portland: Protesters mix it up with police as they march in downtown streets

Fights broke out and Portland police started making arrests in downtown after about 70 protesters gathered by the west end of the Burnside Bridge and started marching about noon.

A shoving match began as protesters -- many wearing bandanas and covering their faces -- strayed into the street. Police on horses and bikes tried to push them back.

Police Chief Mike Reese and other commanders met with officers at the beginning of the protest as police warned the marchers to stay on sidewalks. The group did not have a permit to march.

Image, "A woman hits a Portland Police officer with an umbrella after the officer tried to clear her from a downtown intersection":

Spoiler:

Police respond as May Day anti-capitalist protesters turn violent in Montreal

A May Day march in Montreal that started out peacefully deteriorated into a melee of rock throwing, window-breaking and smoke bombs.

The march, organized by the anti-capitalist group CLAC-Montreal, started a little after 5 p.m. and was declared illegal by police at two minutes after 6 p.m. following violent clashes.

According to Montreal police spokesperson Laurent Gingras, injuries to a citizen, police officers and vandalism on cars and property were the reasons for declaring the march illegal.

Twenty-five arrested as Oakland May Day protests turn raucous

...Police issued a dispersal order about 8 p.m., then said about 300 people surged forward and started throwing bottles and other objects at police. Someone set off a flash-bang grenade and police converged on the perimeter of the plaza and told protesters to leave. Protesters held their ground for a few minutes, and police spread out through the plaza and then protesters moved down toward Telegraph. Protesters lit an unmarked police car and some trash cans on fire as they went.

Image, "A protester attempts to break a window of the Nicholas Petris State building that houses Caltrans":

Spoiler:

Youtube: "Cheap Shot On Cop" (Protester hits riot officer in the back of the head with a drum)

There's more in scores of cities.

In before, "Not all of us support that kind of activity, therefore none of us are responsible."

[Garm]

Oh Seattle.

[Nordic Einar]

Anarchists gonna anarchist. To be frank, I expect nothing less from Occupy at this point. Have fun being malcontents, assholes. We, the actual social justice activists, will have to work twice as hard to clean up your bullshit so we can get back to doing some real fuckin' work.

[natraj]

Anarchists gonna anarchist. To be frank, I expect nothing less from Occupy at this point. Have fun being malcontents, assholes. We, the actual social justice activists, will have to work twice as hard to clean up your bullshit so we can get back to doing some real fuckin' work.

oh, man, i am usually down with the things you have to say but you have no idea how much this kind of statement is obnoxious and grating. right, because none of us who have been involved with occupy are actual social justice activists; it's not like people like me have been seriously involved in activism for years and years or anything. it's not like occupy is chock-full of people who have been fighting on all kinds of different fronts and dedicating our lives to this stuff and occupy has been a useful way to bring people together to network across different issues. nope, we all just sit around with our thumbs up our rears while you do the Real Work.

[Griffin]

In before, "Not all of us support that kind of activity, therefore none of us are responsible."

From which side?

More seriously, though, these anarchist assholes ruin lots of stuff. Meh, hope they get arrested for it, and hope the legitimate protestors might actually be heard over the noise.

[Роберт]

In before, "Not all of us support that kind of activity, therefore none of us are responsible."

From which side?

More seriously, though, these anarchist assholes ruin lots of stuff. Meh, hope they get arrested for it, and hope the legitimate protestors might actually be heard over the noise.

How could anyone think that's a good idea? Consiracy theory version of "lets send some undercover cops in to discredit them" or Occam's Razor version of "fight against the man, break stuff!"...

Who would do that? Just smash up shops and windows? I don't understand this or the riots in England.

[IcedT]

In before, "Not all of us support that kind of activity, therefore none of us are responsible."

From which side?

More seriously, though, these anarchist assholes ruin lots of stuff. Meh, hope they get arrested for it, and hope the legitimate protestors might actually be heard over the noise.

How could anyone think that's a good idea? Consiracy theory version of "lets send some undercover cops in to discredit them" or Occam's Razor version of "fight against the man, break stuff!"...

Who would do that? Just smash up shops and windows? I don't understand this or the riots in England.

Simple: breaking things is fun and you can find some cool stuff when you loot. And if you do it during some other group's protest, they can take the fall for you!

It basically boils down to notgivingafuckitude, which is a plentiful resource in the UK and the Pacific Northwest.

[Nordic Einar]

Anarchists gonna anarchist. To be frank, I expect nothing less from Occupy at this point. Have fun being malcontents, assholes. We, the actual social justice activists, will have to work twice as hard to clean up your bullshit so we can get back to doing some real fuckin' work.

oh, man, i am usually down with the things you have to say but you have no idea how much this kind of statement is obnoxious and grating. right, because none of us who have been involved with occupy are actual social justice activists; it's not like people like me have been seriously involved in activism for years and years or anything. it's not like occupy is chock-full of people who have been fighting on all kinds of different fronts and dedicating our lives to this stuff and occupy has been a useful way to bring people together to network across different issues. nope, we all just sit around with our thumbs up our rears while you do the Real Work.

I don't mean to imply that everyone at Occupy is a store-smashing-anarchist or an apologist for such. I know and work closely with people both at Occupy Detroit and Occupy D.C., many of whom also do other incredible things. I do apologize for that, but my frustration with Occupy as a whole and it's inability to deal with this kind of bullshit (and the general asshattery that I see basically every time I'm down at Occupy or working Occupy groups as a collective) just fucking grinds my gears.

But yes, I may be falsely applying my frustration with stupid anarchists doing stupid shit with Occupy in general. Here's the thing though - early in the thread I was a hesitant occupy ally at the very least, and now even I am having difficulty separating the positive organizing and community building that happens at some Occupy collectives from the stupid, reactionary, and downright violent anarchist bullshit that also sometimes happens there. There is a toxic element to this movement that even other SJ activists ca't get past anymore.

Self-identified Occupiers haven't left the best taste in my mouth. Most of the hardworking activists I know who go to Occupy identify with their community organizing work first, Occupy second :/

[natraj]

yeah, no, i can dig that. i am also frustrated with a lot of the stuff that happens at Occupy and i am not suggesting it is invalid to have serious issues with the movement and the things that come out of it. it was just the sort of collation of occupiers = fake activists that was grating.

i think you're right about the last, though. most of the people i know who have been involved with occupy and been activists for years identify themselves with the work they've been doing longer, first. myself included. but for me at least i have found a good number of real, serious activists doing real, serious work that i connected with because we both came to help out at occupy.

i am not going to fault anybody for having trouble separating the violent(/racist/sexist/homophobic/transphobic/etc/etc/etc) acts that happens in the movement from the movement as a whole, for sure. but the people involved in the movement as a whole have a lot more to them besides being violent anarchists.

[The Great Hippo]

Hey. HEY. HEY! What the hell?!

STOP COMMUNICATING YOUR POSITIONS LIKE REASONABLE ADULTS AND COMING TO MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL UNDERSTANDINGS.

I came here for flame wars, not this 'let's try to understand each other's perspective' bull crap!

[Box Boy]

I could get offended over their use of the word Anarchist, if that would help?

[Iulus Cofield]

Yeah! Communist is a way more accurate slur! Unless socialist is still considered a dirty word.

[Gears]

Montana governors lead fight against corporate personhood. I'm so happy to be from here!

[Bharrata]

I could get offended over their use of the word Anarchist, if that would help?

Black Bloc is not and should not be confused with anarchism/anarchists.

[Iulus Cofield]

Released documents prove the FBI and DHS collaborated with local police departments to coordinate crackdowns on Occupy protesters.

[stevey_frac]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what I find most disturbing about this is that the banks themselves were apparently in on it, collecting and disseminating information on private citizens to the FBI and DHS.

[KnightExemplar]

So... you're mad that a police force was keeping tabs on a protest?

Documents show the spying abuses of the FBI’s “Campus Liaison Program” in which the FBI in Albany and the Syracuse Joint Terrorism Task Force disseminated information to “sixteen (16) different campus police officials,” and then “six (6) additional campus police officials.” Campus officials were in contact with the FBI for information on OWS. A representative of the State University of New York at Oswego contacted the FBI for information on the OWS protests and reported to the FBI on the SUNY-Oswego Occupy encampment made up of students and professors.

The FBI talked to other police about information they gained. What is the big deal here?

Interesting quotes that I've found:

[Redacted] mentioned there was a discussion on the internet regarding the Occupy Wall Street movement about when it is okay to shoot a police officer

Considering the amount of anti-police hate on these forums, it is clear that the police have reason to be on edge. These are the reports that are getting handed out about OWS, and the threat that they see.

[Redacted] provided information concerning cyber threats in the financial industry, including what banks and their customers can do to thwart such treats and effective reporting of cyber threat incidents

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are things that law enforcement officials should be talking about. And considering that DOS attacks were all the rage at the time, I think that is an important discussion to have with bank officials.

Unless you guys can find something worse in there, I frankly expect the FBI to be involved in talking to banks about potential hacktivists and the effects that would have on their customers.

Protesters plan to Shut Down Ports on West Coast

I remember this incident. Good to know the police properly was telling port officials about this incident. I'm kind of interested that the FBI got involved in spreading the information, but thats a good thing. This line above was the first publication of the Domestic Security Alliance Council in the pack of documents

Numerous incidents have occured in the past which show attempts by Anarchist groups to disrupt, influence, and or shutdown normal business operations of financial districts

To document liason contact with [REDACTED] Security for Zions Bank, recgarding possible threat possed by the hactivist Anonymous... IA [REDACTED] informed [REDACTED] that the CEOs of Goldman Sachs and JP Moragan Chase had been "doxed" by an actor claiming Anonymous affiliation. IA [REDACTED] explained that doxing is Internet slang for maliciously releasing public information regarding an individual on the Internet.

I forgot about the doxxing incident, but I think I remember it now. I don't think that one was actually related to OWS, but those sorts of things are obviously going to be discussed by the police.

I'm up to page 41 of this thing, and most of these things are mundane stuff. I'm kinda happy to see the Police actually telling people about these sorts of things, and trying to get the banks prepared for hactivism or the protests.

The protestors actions shut down the port of oakland for more than 14 hours. If this movement were spread to the port of Long Beach, the second busiest port in the United States, the disruption of port operations resulting in cargo reaching their required destinations late could have much more serious effects on the supply chain network in the United States

On 10/24/2011 writer disseminated two intelligence products from the Campus Liaison Program to sixteen (16) different campus police officials. The information described the animal rights extremist website NEGOTIATION IS OVER and the call therein for violent action against undergraduate and graduate students studying the life sciences.

[snip]

[Redacted] adviced that a small group of OCCUPY WALL STREET protesters had established an encampment on the grounds of SUNY-Oswego. That group is primarily comprised of stuents, but also occasionally includes professors. The group has been camping in tents and demonstrating peacefully. [REDACTED] asked whether any other campuses were experiencing the same encampments and wanted to know whether when these protests were scheduled to end.

[snip]
[REDACTEd] also adviced that another unrelated group appeared on campus, apparently trying to 'latch on' to the existing OCCUPY WALL STREET protesters. The unrelated group was from a religious/evangelistic group known as LIVING WATERS. They had an anti-abortion campaign entitled "180" and demonstrated on campus. Members in of the LIVING WATERS protest group were not cooperative with campus public safety officials and repeatedly disregarded the stated rules for protesting. [snip]

This one is interesting. It seems like they conclude here that the OWS protesters (in this specific campus) were peaceful, but they had to keep an eye out for the two unrelated groups taking advantage of the movment: "NEGOTIATION IS OVER", and "LIVING WATERS". If they are trying to pick apart groups and see which ones are the ones to worry about, that is a good thing, and demonstrates good effort on the part of the FBI.

During the early morning hours of October 23, 2011, officers from the Portland Police Department responded to a "chemical bomb" call at Lincoln Park, 79 Pearl Street, Portland ME which is home to the Occupy Maine movement.

This is a reported incident against the Occupy movement. The "chemical weapon" ended up being some sort of smoke that irritated the throats of a few individuals.

An identified [REDACTED] as of October planned to engage in sniper attacks against protestors in Houston Texas, if deemed necessary. [snip] [REDACTED] planned to gather intelligence against the leaders of the protest groups and obtain photographs, then formulate a plan to kill the leadership via suppressed sniper rifles

Another incident that was probably aimed against the Occupy movement. Good thing the FBI was on the case then, OWS? Sounds like they caught the guys who were planning this, and the incident never happened as planned.