Gay teen faces expulsion for defense via stungun

[jakovasaur]

He couldn't even tell them who the bullies were, and it sounds like at least some of it happened outside of school. I don't think you have enough information to say what should or shouldn't have happened to the other kids.

[EdgarJPublius]

Allow me to play Devil's advocate here for a bit.

You believe something without justifications of any sort

Sorry to be so blunt, but if I need to justify to you that weapons in schools are bad, you're not capable of taking meaningful part in this discussion.

You can't just say certain things don't need to be justified. A strong positive assertion should always be backed by evidence. 'Common sense' is rarely an acceptable argument for why things should be done a certain way.

As for why expulsion is good, it's because there are probably hundreds of other students at the school who might think bringing a weapon to school is an appropriate response to bullying if they don't do it.

Why isn't it though? If a student's life is endangered by a bully, don't they have a right to defend themselves? I mean, outside of school, being surrounded and outnumbered by a threatening group would make a strong case for a reasonable fear of death or extreme bodily harm, that would be justification for use of lethal force in self-defense. Why should that change just because the incident is on school grounds? It's not like a bunch of thugs suddenly become a whole lot less dangerous when they cross the property line.

Even accepting that it's not necessarily a good idea to let anybody who wants to bring a weapon to school, what about students who are 18 and have a valid license to carry? What about students who are able to show a special need or danger?
It's not like the rules stop at weapons either, Zero tolerance typically applies to any form of physical violence as well.

From this point of view, the 'Bullying problem' seems pretty simple. Bullying exists in schools to a much larger degree than in society at large, because in schools the consequences for defending yourself are as bad, if not worse, than the consequences for being the aggressor. Whereas outside of school, victims at least have the right to defend themselves, if not always the capability.

[Heisenberg]

I never said anything about "any reason in any capacity". I just said that schools shouldn't allow weapons, and that were I a parent of a child at that school, I would want this student punished severely. And I don't need to justify that, not to you or to anyone, it's perfectly reasonable and self explanatory.

It's unreasonable and baffling to me. This kid's actions stopped a fight from breaking out. That fight could easily have injured or killed your child. This kid's actions meant that your kid was home safe at the end of the day instead of in the hospital. And you want this kid punished for his actions? That's not reasonable at all.

Zero tolerance makes sense because there is no situation at a school which would actually be improved by arming teenagers. Even in this specific case, when the kid seems to have shown admirable restraint, the weapon will only escalate the situation in the long run.

I think that no one ending up in the hospital is a better result than someone ending up in the hospital, so I'm going to have to disagree. This situation was improved by the teenager being armed. I don't know what you're envisioning will happen in "the long run," but for now, no one is dead, and I think that's good.

[sardia]

This sounds like a job for the NRA. A stand your ground law for students would be a great idea here. Just replace the taser with a real gun, firing it into the air with firing into the bully's chest, and then the gay guy would get off scot free.

[Роберт]

As for why expulsion is good, it's because there are probably hundreds of other students at the school who might think bringing a weapon to school is an appropriate response to bullying if they don't do it. The bullies need to be dealt with, and the principal desperately needs to be fired. But you can't allow bringing and using a weapon on school property to be in any way OK.

On the other hand, what would the expulsion of the student in question say to potential bullies (as well as the actual bullies involved in this incident)?

[Nordic Einar]

Also:

Grimes said she knew Young was gay even when he was a little boy. His personality differed from that of his twin brother, Darrell, and an older brother. He would want to put on her makeup and shoes, and his brothers would get mad and tell him not to do that. She said she always was supportive of his sexuality.

How does that mean he'll be attracted to men?
(from http://www.indystar.com/article/2012050 ... ext%7CNews )

Early life gender "transgressions" (fuck I hate that term) are a fairly positive indicator of later life homosexuality. Moderate effect size, d ~.4ish if I recall my Psychology of Gender correctly.

[mike-l]

As for why expulsion is good, it's because there are probably hundreds of other students at the school who might think bringing a weapon to school is an appropriate response to bullying if they don't do it. The bullies need to be dealt with, and the principal desperately needs to be fired. But you can't allow bringing and using a weapon on school property to be in any way OK.

On the other hand, what would the expulsion of the student in question say to potential bullies (as well as the actual bullies involved in this incident)?

As I've said 3 times now, the bullies also should be punished, and the principal fired for his 'advice' to the student.

[Роберт]

Early life gender "transgressions" (fuck I hate that term) are a fairly positive indicator of later life homosexuality. Moderate effect size, d ~.4ish if I recall my Psychology of Gender correctly.

Sure, but he could have been transgender or just a cross-dresser. I don't think you can "know" that he was going to be gay.

[Lucrece]

The NRA already campaigns for college students to be able to carry in college. And given that the massacres happened largely on an unarmed student incapable of doing anything to defend themselves besides hiding under their desks and hoping the assailant ran out of bullets or chose to spare them, it's not exactly the best commentary on these policies when weapons were already illegal and the policy failed to do anything but make the student body more impotent in that scenario.

Early life gender "transgressions" (fuck I hate that term) are a fairly positive indicator of later life homosexuality. Moderate effect size, d ~.4ish if I recall my Psychology of Gender correctly.

Sure, but he could have been transgender or just a cross-dresser. I don't think you can "know" that he was going to be gay.

There's also the video interview I just linked where the teen confirms he's gay.

[Griffin]

As I've said 3 times now, the bullies also should be punished, and the principal fired for his 'advice' to the student.

And you've completely failed to argue why expelling this student, in this situation, does any more good than simply doing those two actions.

And as a side note: Only one of the three actions seems likely to happen at this point.

[Роберт]

As I've said 3 times now, the bullies also should be punished, and the principal fired for his 'advice' to the student.

In this case, they don't have a concrete identity for the bullies involved (presumably for fear of reprisal if the students "rat out" some of them). So your solution isn't realistic.

I think we mostly agree. He should be disciplined for bringing a weapon to school. Any bullies that can be identified should be disciplined, and the principal should also receive disciplinary action.

[mike-l]

Early life gender "transgressions" (fuck I hate that term) are a fairly positive indicator of later life homosexuality. Moderate effect size, d ~.4ish if I recall my Psychology of Gender correctly.

Sure, but he could have been transgender or just a cross-dresser. I don't think you can "know" that he was going to be gay.

The point of the quote was that she was supportive of her son's personality and expression. I think we can lay off of the relatively mild inaccuracies, when the story is about a group of kids and school staff who behaved infinitely more egregiously.

[Griffin]

Which is essentially my opinion as well. I just don't think "expulsion" is the proper punishment for anyone involved here, with the exception of the principle.

And it could be possible the kid just doesn't /know/ who the bullies where. Without the schools assistance, identifying them could be near impossible, after all.

I couldn't have identified (as in told someone who it was) one of the bullies that tormented me in high school, because he wasn't so much keen on sharing his name as he was on trying to terrify the fucking shit out of me.

But more seriously, I see one thing as being expulsion-worthy : Having serious evidence that a student will commit an serious act of aggression, that the school cannot prevent, against another student.

There is no evidence, none, that if the bullies are dealt with, and this student is punished in some other way, that he will actually be an ongoing threat to anyone.

[mike-l]

As I've said 3 times now, the bullies also should be punished, and the principal fired for his 'advice' to the student.

And you've completely failed to argue why expelling this student, in this situation, does any more good than simply doing those two actions.

I have an explanation in the post you quoted. Here it is, a third time.

As for why expulsion is good, it's because there are probably hundreds of other students at the school who might think bringing a weapon to school is an appropriate response to bullying if they don't do it. <snip>. But you can't allow bringing and using a weapon on school property to be in any way OK.

[Nordic Einar]

Early life gender "transgressions" (fuck I hate that term) are a fairly positive indicator of later life homosexuality. Moderate effect size, d ~.4ish if I recall my Psychology of Gender correctly.

Sure, but he could have been transgender or just a cross-dresser. I don't think you can "know" that he was going to be gay.

Right, but that doesn't mean you can't make predictions which are fairly reliable.You're taking a very literal meaning of "know", here, and I think it's a little pedantic.

[Griffin]

mike-i, you still haven't explained it, you've just reposted the same empty bullshit you did before.

Why. Expulsion. Why. Does it do good. In this situation.

Simply stating it and offering empty rationale is not explaining.

Seriously now. Give it a try. Because all I'm getting is

As for why beheading is good, it's because there are probably hundreds of other students at the school who might think bringing a weapon to school is an appropriate response to bullying if they don't do it. <snip>. But you can't allow bringing and using a weapon on school property to be in any way OK.

[Роберт]

And it could be possible the kid just doesn't /know/ who the bullies where. Without the schools assistance, identifying them could be near impossible, after all.

There were several witnesses to the event in question. I find it possible that some of them could have identified one of the bullies.

But you're right, it could have been that none of the witnesses could have.

I think we can lay off of the relatively mild inaccuracies, when the story is about a group of kids and school staff who behaved infinitely more egregiously.

But I hate everyone and want to complain about everything.

Seriously though, people conflate gender identity with sexual orientation enough it was worth pointing out, IMO.

[Nordic Einar]

Seriously though, people conflate gender identity with sexual orientation enough it was worth pointing out, IMO.

That's fair, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a positive casual correlation between early life gender transgressions and later life homosexuality, regardless of gender identity or trans* status. These things are related in some way, and they may be a "decent" indicator that you should probably affirm your child's potential homosexuality early. Or their trans* status. (I mean, you should do this anyway and instill that all GI's and SO's are valid regardless of their personal identities, but still.)

[morriswalters]

No this thread is evidently blame someone for something because you don't like the outcome.

Please explain to me exactly why expulsion is the best thing for the student in question.

There is no best thing. I'll play my part and be the parent of an uninvolved student. If the principle doesn't expel him than I would sue. The risk to my child as an uninterested party is too high, in this case it was a stun gun, but it could just as well been a handgun. You make policy on what could happen not on what did. Considering that over 3000 students were expelled for bringing a weapon to school last year, it is easy to see why I might feel this way. I would also feel compelled to ask why the student body didn't rally to the bullied students side when the Principle investigated. Kids always see this type of thing. I would also ask if there were no indication of these things in the social media that children use. Were there incidences off campus and if so why weren't the police called? In terms of bullies, shoot them for all I care, but you'll get just as compelling arguments why they shouldn't be expelled either. We do what we can do.

"If you wear female apparel, then kids are kids and they're going to say whatever it is that they want to say," Yarrell told the newspaper. "Because you want to be different and because you choose to wear female apparel, it may happen. In the idealistic society, it shouldn't matter. People should be able to wear what they want to wear."

Is this what we should discipline the principle for? For stating the obvious?

[Роберт]

The risk to my child as an uninterested party is too high, in this case it was a stun gun, but it could just as well been a handgun.

In this case it was a plastic butter knife, but it could just as well have been a switchblade.

[Lucrece]

My public school was made up of more tha four thousand students, many of whom I did not share classes with. It's very possible to not know the name of someone who notices you in halls or lunch break and decides to bully you. You not only don't have a name, but you don't even have a schedule and the task then falls to sift through a group of about half the school (there were two lunch breaks, half and half; and the order of the half depended and varied on the daily schedule -- you could get lunch b 3 times and lunch a two times, and they could be interweaved) and see if the bullies would make themselves available when they saw you walking with an adult/school administrator.

It is not rare for a bullying victim to have trouble identifying the bullies or have reservations about making revelations when administrators themselves are blaming you for your own bullying. The bullies are empowered by a complicit group of adults that sympathizes with people of their sexuality and gender expression over troublesome deviants like you. I'm annoyed that anyone would suggest the victim is lying or exaggerating for shits and giggles.

[EdgarJPublius]

This sounds like a job for the NRA. A stand your ground law for students would be a great idea here. Just replace the taser with a real gun, firing it into the air with firing into the bully's chest, and then the gay guy would get off scot free.

A warning shot from a firearm is extremely reckless, dangerous to bystanders and illegal (for good reason) in most U.S. jurisdictions.
What goes up must come down.

The risk to my child as an uninterested party is too high

And the risk to your child from numerous aggressive bullies isn't? How about the risk to your child from similar situations that might occur outside of school? if this incident had happened say, in your neighborhood instead of at school, would you want the victim arrested and thrown in jail?

it's because there are probably hundreds of other students at the school who might think bringing a weapon to school is an appropriate response to bullying

But can you explain why that isn't an appropriate response to bullying?

[Lucrece]

Because under their view it's a slippery slope to anarchy and a school will break into a wild west or gangland. Not that gangsters already ignore school ordinances and bring all sorts of concealed weapons. The victim was just honest about it and got punished for not being more clever about his tactics. Sort of the same scenario of "if you get in a fight, you both get expelled"; you are being punished for inconveniencing society in defending yourself, because if the administrators were to punish the bully only, they'd have to be burdened with facing the angry and often enabling (and bullies themselves most often) parents.

[Роберт]

This sounds like a job for the NRA. A stand your ground law for students would be a great idea here. Just replace the taser with a real gun, firing it into the air with firing into the bully's chest, and then the gay guy would get off scot free.

A warning shot from a firearm is extremely reckless, dangerous to bystanders and illegal (for good reason) in most U.S. jurisdictions.
What goes up must come down.

I think you're misreading. For the real gun, he side fire it into the bully's chest. For the stun gun, there was nothing going up to come down.

[mike-l]

it's because there are probably hundreds of other students at the school who might think bringing a weapon to school is an appropriate response to bullying

But can you explain why that isn't an appropriate response to bullying?

Because it's dangerous, because responding with threats of violence or actual violence will probably lead to more violence, because even if it deters the bullies, it doesn't deter them because you've changed their mind or behaviour in anyway, but because they're responding to fear, and about 100 other reasons.

The school should be a safe place. It clearly isn't, But the solution isn't to arm the students, it's to deal with the bullying. Aside from retribution to the people actually caught doing the bullying, if I'm a principal and a student comes to me ten times complaining of bullying because he's gay, I'm having weekly assemblies about the issues until it stops. I'll start by inviting Dan Savage to talk.

[Lucrece]

And the first thing people who hold contempt for a faggot will do is listen to a faggot? I think people are already aware that assaulting other people is not normal, socially accepted behavior. They just don't care, because it's fun for them and they can get away with it. A talk and finger-wagging is going to do jackshit.

You're talking as if refusing to do things out of fear is a terrible thing, but we already function by fear. We don't rob stores for fear of going to jail, or having the owners and community pissed off and lynching us. We don't air out our prejudices publicly because we fear social marginalization. Nations generally don't fuck with other nations capable of responding to transgressions because we fear their economic and military retaliations, not some stern lecture. We were willing to interefere with a weakling like Libya, but we sure as hell stay clear from other oppressive regimes like China, Saudi Arabia, or Russia -- for fear of the economic and military hurt they can inflict.

[Griffin]

Mike, do you think the bullies should be expelled, if they can be identified?

[morriswalters]

The risk to my child as an uninterested party is too high, in this case it was a stun gun, but it could just as well been a handgun.

In this case it was a plastic butter knife, but it could just as well have been a switchblade.

I can see were done here.

Toodles

And the risk to your child from numerous aggressive bullies isn't? How about the risk to your child from similar situations that might occur outside of school? if this incident had happened say, in your neighborhood instead of at school, would you want the victim arrested and thrown in jail?

The risk to my child in school is greater from weapons that from people. As a parent if my child told me that he was afraid to go to school because of bullies we would be in the Principles office with the usual suspects, at which point it would become a matter of law if I wasn't satisfied. In terms of outside the school, the response would be to call the police and failing that then a personal appearance at the home of the bully to put the pressure on. But in the end short of arming up and taking direct violent action perhaps you would share with me what I should do? I interfere with my child's personal life very gingerly, you have to let them grow which involves a certain amount of dealing with asshats, interfere too much and you weaken them, to little and they can be harmed. At the risk of running afoul of the some folks, I might well warn my child of the difference between full expression and reserve in his personal predilections in public among people who don't share your outlook. Because young people can be asshats even if they later grow out of it. Nobody protects your interests like you or your parents, if you depend on school to fix this problem than good luck.

[Роберт]

The risk to my child as an uninterested party is too high, in this case it was a stun gun, but it could just as well been a handgun.

In this case it was a plastic butter knife, but it could just as well have been a switchblade.

I can see were done here.

Toodles

Would you prefer me looking up the Latin phrase for describing the logical fallacy next time? That often seems pretentious and like a waste of time. We're not in a debate class. What you said wasn't valid and I explained why.

By the way, that sentence would have been a lot easier to parse had you written it correctly.

The risk to my child in school is greater from weapons that from people.

Really? My school didn't have any autonomous weapons.

[Griffin]

The risk to my child in school is greater from weapons that from people.

The risk to my child in school is far greater from people than from stun guns. And this wasn't just any weapon, it was a stun gun. Less dangerous than a knife. Probably equivalent to a heavy stick. Do you think fending off bullies with a heavy stick is expulsion worthy?

Because goddamnit, I'd be so fucking expelled right now, since that's exactly what I did when they tried to kick my ass in middle school. Didn't hit anyone, just made the power differential between 5 guys vs 1 guy a bit less of a "you get to kick me and I can do jack shit" and a bit more "I might at least konch one of you if you get too close".

As a parent if my child told me that he was afraid to go to school because of bullies we would be in the Principles office with the usual suspects, at which point it would become a matter of law if I wasn't satisfied.

They tried this. Many times. And the police are going to laugh you the fuck off, so good luck with that!

In terms of outside the school, the response would be to call the police and failing that then a personal appearance at the home of the bully to put the pressure on.

Pressure? Pffffthaha. Right. Pressure. What pressure, exactly? What if you don't know the bullies name? Address? You think the school is going to give it to you? And every time I've seen this happen, its led to either uselessness or serious violence. I would not advocate this solution.

But in the end short of arming up and taking direct violent action perhaps you would share with me what I should do?

You could try to create the illusion of strength, and make yourself appear to be one is not to messed with, without actually doing anything violent. See: This story.

I interfere with my child's personal life very gingerly, you have to let them grow which involves a certain amount of dealing with asshats, interfere too much and you weaken them, to little and they can be harmed.

So the kid just needs to learn to accept being a victim if the other options run out?

At the risk of running afoul of the some folks, I might well warn my child of the difference between full expression and reserve in his personal predilections in public among people who don't share your outlook. Because young people can be asshats even if they later grow out of it. Nobody protects your interests like you or your parents, if you depend on school to fix this problem than good luck.

Unfortunately, schools don't exactly allow your parents to come to school and try to fix these problems. Parents can't be there, parents have less control over the bullies. And this student DID fix the problem, in the only way he could.

You are, quite literally, arguing that victims should shut up and take it if those with the power to fix their problems refuse to help.

[Роберт]

inb4 "big sticks aren't weapons".

Besides, did you just brandish the stick, or did you swing it. The latter is EXACTLY the same as firing a bullet into the air.

[Lucrece]

And this is why bullying is so widespread. Not only do people trivialize it, but it seems like many don't understand the dynamics of being bullied. Going to the parents of teh bully? LOL, the parents of bullies are often bullies themselves, and at the very least most parents don't side against their children for the sake of another kid possessing a sexual orientation that still over half the country believes makes you an inferior and immoral person. Calling the police? Are you fucking stupid, or do you have a moral objection against reading articles provided where it's said the police told the victim to tone his flamboyance down if he wanted bullies to get off his case (so it's his fault). Everyone blamed the victim, and so the victim went to the mom, who saw nobody was doing anything for her kid, and she decided to provide him with the best method of defense that others refuse to provide with alternatives (and she didn't buy him a gun, or a taser, or give him a knife; she bought him a stun gun).

This is how oppression works. It happened to women, and it happened to black people. When the institutions and society who were supposed to guarantee their safety made no efforts to protect them (and in many cases, joined in their victimization), they had to resort to their own means. And the governments were shocked and the people outraged that these people would resort to unlawful means when the law and the system failed them. So was the federal government wrathful when miners and workers under unconscionable conditions decided to form militias to fight off the industries' thugs plus the same federal forces brought in by bought politicians to suppress the very people they were supposed to protect.

[EdgarJPublius]

In terms of outside the school, the response would be to call the police

I agree that calling the police to report an act of violence (or an immanent) act of violence is an excellent idea. What I don't agree with is that calling the police, who are physically incapable of intervening in time to stop an attack (unless you are lucky enough to be assaulted within twenty feet or so of a police officer), is a proactive solution to being surrounded and outnumbered by a group of aggressive and violent assailants.

because responding with threats of violence or actual violence will probably lead to more violence

Evidence shows that at worst, strong self defense laws (including the right to carry and use weapons) don't increase the incidence of violent crime, and at best may significantly reduce it.

But the solution isn't to arm the students,

Well, it is at least a solution. Probably not the best I'll readily admit. But I don't think denying the students the ability to protect themselves from violence and punishing them when they do is the solution either.

[morriswalters]

My better judgement say's to walk away, but I love to fight.

The risk to my child in school is far greater from people than from stun guns. And this wasn't just any weapon, it was a stun gun. Less dangerous than a knife. Probably equivalent to a heavy stick. Do you think fending off bullies with a heavy stick is expulsion worthy?

Because goddamnit, I'd be so fucking expelled right now, since that's exactly what I did when they tried to kick my ass in middle school. Didn't hit anyone, just made the power differential between 5 guys vs 1 guy a bit less of a "you get to kick me and I can do jack shit" and a bit more "I might at least konch one of you if you get too close".

At the risk of seeming to be a dick so what? I used to get beat up early and often. It didn't happen at school it happened on the way home. Do you seriously think that escalating a situation ever does anything. In my neighborhood the response would have been, we'll see you later. And they would have. Do I think it was expulsion worthy, no I don't, but I don't know about the school, and if he had punched someone he would probably be at school.

You could try to create the illusion of strength, and make yourself appear to be one is not to messed with, without actually doing anything violent.

When I stop laughing, I'll answer. I have ask, where were you raised? Again where I grew up you would have had to prove it, again and again. There was no end to them.

So the kid just needs to learn to accept being a victim if the other options run out?

Sometimes, and I don't care if you like this or not, you put your head down and wait it out. The will happen in other less violent ways, from instructors you can't avoid, and bosses who will make your life miserable. You do what you can, when you can. Of course if you wish you can fly the flag and stand out you can, but if you do then take your lumps and shut up. I'll help if I can but understand no one can be there all the time to help you.

Unfortunately, schools don't exactly allow your parents to come to school and try to fix these problems. Parents can't be there, parents have less control over the bullies. And this student DID fix the problem, in the only way he could.

You are, quite literally, arguing that victims should shut up and take it if those with the power to fix their problems refuse to help.

The parents are never powerless. And had the student pulled this crap off campus the outcome could have been worse, because there would have been less control. And since you have effectively argued that violence or the threat of violence is the only option, I really don't have anything else to say.

Lucrece this is about brains that are not developed enough to be under control of the people they belong to. Girls bully girls, boys bully boys, and on and on an on. This is not about oppressing women or blacks, and it trivializes those struggles.

Роберт, fuck logical fallacies, almost anything can and has been turned into weapons. It should be instructive to you that some of the most violent places in the world are jails and prisons, which are, oddly enough some of the most controlled. However unless the mother in question had a mental deficit she should have known the outcome of her purchase. She was wrong morally, legally, and practically. Certainly she was informed unless you wish to argue that that she didn't bother to inform herself of school policy.

edited say to say's

[Ghostbear]

Sometimes, and I don't care if you like this or not, you put your head down and wait it out. The will happen in other less violent ways, from instructors you can't avoid, and bosses who will make your life miserable. You do what you can, when you can. Of course if you wish you can fly the flag and stand out you can, but if you do then take your lumps and shut up. I'll help if I can but understand no one can be there all the time to help you.

I think you don't understand the actual risks to people being bullied. It's not equivalent to a boss that makes your life miserable. A boss that makes your life miserable can't put you in the hospital for significant injuries. Being bullied isn't some minor annoyance or simple inconvenience. You can't just try and "grin and bear it" with any expectations of safety.

[Griffin]

Do I think it was expulsion worthy, no I don't, but I don't know about the school, and if he had punched someone he would probably be at school.

Wait just a minute. Let me make sure I'm clear on this. You think harmlessly zapping a bit of electricity into the air is expulsion-worthy, but actual physical assault, causing injury, should not be. Combined with your lack of alternatives to a broken system, you're essentially arguing that might makes right at school. Considering this is a place our kids are legally required to go...

That's pretty messed up. And it is never all right to shut up and take the abuse. That's the sort of attitude that makes the fucking abuse happen in the first place.

But its nice that you believe your right to have your kid protected from something that didn't happen and isn't being discussed (bringing a gun to school, your argument, somehow, for some crazy reason you haven't explained) trumps the right of others to not have your kids kick their asses everyday.

[Dream]

A boss that makes your life miserable can't put you in the hospital for significant injuries. Being bullied isn't some minor annoyance or simple inconvenience. You can't just try and "grin and bear it" with any expectations of safety.

I'm not necessarily agreeing with morriswalters, but I have to say that a boss can very much put you in hospital with significant injuries. I've often been pressed into work that was dangerous, or had my complaints about injury or similar discomfort ignored. And it is just as hard for an employee drawing a pay cheque to say no to a boss as it is for a victim of bullying to stand up in whatever way will help their situation. I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of school bullying instances have no significant danger attached, be that psychological or physical, but that the majority of abusive or exploitative bosses have everything a bully has, plus an added danger of being able to impinge on safety and compel unsafe behaviour. Sure, some bosses are just hot air, and pose no threat to their employees, and some school bullies are a very immediate and dire threat to their victims. But the majority of cases are the opposite, in my experience.

[Ghostbear]

I'm not necessarily agreeing with morriswalters, but I have to say that a boss can very much put you in hospital with significant injuries. I've often been pressed into work that was dangerous, or had my complaints about injury or similar discomfort ignored. And it is just as hard for an employee drawing a pay cheque to say no to a boss as it is for a victim of bullying to stand up in whatever way will help their situation. I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of school bullying instances have no significant danger attached, be that psychological or physical, but that the majority of abusive or exploitative bosses have everything a bully has, plus an added danger of being able to impinge on safety and compel unsafe behaviour. Sure, some bosses are just hot air, and pose no threat to their employees, and some school bullies are a very immediate and dire threat to their victims. But the majority of cases are the opposite, in my experience.

That's a different kind of boss than one that "makes your life miserable" though -- the way it was phrased and grouped ("instructors you can't avoid") imply that the making your life miserable isn't from requiring you to do unsafe things or similar. It was written as being more of a structural annoyance in your day ("Yup, it's 1:30, time for my daily getting chewed out for other people's mistakes."), not as something with any actual physical harm associated with it ("Yup, it's 1:30, time for my daily getting ganged up on by my peers with a chance of being beaten."). A boss in general can put you in the hospital, but a boss that you just find annoying isn't a significantly increased risk of such (unless you're bad at dealing with stress). I was addressing the latter.

[Griffin]

And while there's a financial incentive to remain with the boss, people can, and do, quit. But yes, abusive relationships can occur at any age. And staying in them, shutting up, and "taking it", as morris advocates, is never the right answer.

And with school, unfortunately, you're legally restricted from leaving.

But yeah, adults still run the risks of dealing with bullies who use force to get their way. Its still a difficult problem to deal with, too.

[Not A Raptor]

He had other options than the stungun. If he had a phone or mp3 player capable of taking video, he could have done what I would if it were me: Record the bullies, and give them over to the internet along with whatever information was known. Names. Addresses. Phone numbers. Then I'd let the rest unfold. If lucky, the internet (at least, such of it as cares sufficiently about giving assholes hell) would pick up the cause, and the bullying would probably quiet up pretty damn fast.