Shadowrun Mafia - Kill all Humans? - Mafia wins

[t1mm01994]

*sigh* (I had my last breath)

[Cameroni101]

After night, I am willing to trust kr02 and US. My suspicion lies with those who didn't vote for the lynching of lynx. Eculc is on the top of my list since he apparently didn't vote. I'm going to have to watch to see how this further develops.

[eculc]

yeah, sorry about not voting. I was asleep at the time, and I'd forgotten to vote beforehand.

As it is, the first player on my list is adam; He was the only one voting for tim, and he turned up town. I didn't see much in the way of defending tim D1, but that could mean anything.

as US was talking about recruiting, it's possible she might be a mason recruiter, like new user said.

I'm going to hazard a guess that tim is the one that had a matrix icon, as well.

[UniqueScreenname]

My full title is Troll Rigger. The purpose for the alliance is to increase the amount of damage that can be dealt to the mafia. I don't know how it works particularly, since I have no flavor knowledge, and I'm really confused since lynx went down without a fight.

However, DBC, you are looking more like a cult later than me right now, because you are trying to convince people to lynch me without any proof. I'm happy to give up the info, since it may convince others, but I'm aware of the possibility you can interpret this information in whatever way you want to incriminate me. Also, you are giving me no way to defend myself. I think if someone investigated us, as I suggested, it would be the best way to clear us.

[UniqueScreenname]

EBWOP: cult leader. Stupid autocomplete.

[DaBigCheez]

You know what, this is frustrating and un-fun for everyone including me to keep this hidden, so I'm just gonna go ahead and partial-claim, revealing the info that makes me suspicious so others can judge for themselves - I've probably already put a target on my head anyway.

Before I do that, though, I have one more thing I'd like US to claim - What is the name of your recruiting power?

[Adam H]

Hmmm, I think I'm opposed to a US lynch. Scum wants to kill US no matter what kind of recruiter she is, so I'm OK letting them take care of it for us. It may be dangerous trusting scum to handle our kill for us, but in this case it would be pretty silly of mafia to let a recruiter grow unhindered if we maintain that we won't lynch them.

I should reiterate that the difference between this game and most games with cult is that I'm about 60% sure that US is town aligned rather than cult (mainly because cameroni seems willing to soft-claim that he was recruited, which would be foolish if US was cult; also because US was willing to claim recruiter as well). Again, I am NOT advocating ignoring a cult.

So all this might change depending on DBC's claim.

[UniqueScreenname]

Hack drone. Everything I said before still applies.

[DaBigCheez]

...Interesting. That...actually makes me feel much happier about US's claim, and provides a good justification for the contradiction I mentioned earlier. It could still be an anti-town role, certainly, but my attitude has changed from "BURN THE WITCH" to "hmm, potentially fishy but seems to make some sense". I'm still concerned about another discrepancy I see, but that's to my mind more minor and potentially not invalidating the townish claim.

I assume, then, that your ability works only on drones, rather than on metahumans?

[Snark]

This is all ridiculously unhelpful.

I am a town drone controller. There's no way BoomFrog created two town drone controllers, so I know that US is indy/scum. I'd really appreciate us lynching her before cyber actions today, because if her options for cyber actions are anything similar to mine, letting her have another one is going to make her faction (cult/scum/I don't know) that much larger.

I'm asking y'all to trust me and lynch US. KrO2, you're my drone now, so the least you can do is stop defending US. Tomorrow, if KrO2 comes up pro-town, y'all can have my head, but I can guarantee that that's not going to happen.

[KrO2]

Snark's telling the truth. Otherwise he wouldn't know that my controller had changed. Last night I received a PM that told me my controller had changed, that I should always play for my current win condition (which I suppose is now I win if Snark does), and that this might be hard because I wasn't being told who my new controller was. After cyber deadline I'll be able to get proof of who my new controller is, but for now as you can see I'm pretty much sure that it's Snark.

Bad news: I actually don't know if US's alliance is a cult or not. I was thinking it probably is, but never found out her win condition. I was going to get it verified day 2 but now I can't. Nevertheless, multiple town-friendly drone controllers does sound unlikely.

[Snark]

Tomorrow, if KrO2US comes up pro-town, y'all can have my head, but I can guarantee that that's not going to happen.

Fixed.

[DaBigCheez]

Okay, yeah. I've heard enough to convince me that I don't need to claim, my suspicions about US still stand despite her claim becoming more believable to me with her power named, and frankly, I trust Snark more than US in any event. KrO2's role is...odd, if true, but in a setting like Shadowrun I can see it.

Vote: UniqueScreenname

[Adam H]

Before US is lynched I want to hear from cameroni why he thinks US is town.

I'm not too sure why Snark is townier than US.

[DaBigCheez]

Mostly, for me, because his partial-claim (hack immunity) came earlier than US's and when he wasn't under suspicion, and because his claimed immunity makes sense to me with his claimed role. The other part of it is just gut feeling, i.e. number of pings I've received from each of them when reading through what they say, regardless of whether I can trace those pings back to the source and find out why they ping me. (That said, I don't trust my gut too much, especially when I'm hungry )

[DaBigCheez]

EBWOP: And I was assuming Cameroni either got culted during the night or investigated US and got a town result, and frankly I find the latter less likely. Of course, it could just be the result of position changing due to a re-read and me fitting everything into the culty narrative I've constructed, but still.

[KrO2]

I have always thought Snark was almost certainly town, even back at the beginning. He partially claimed his role right off the bat, which doesn't seem like a scum thing to do. And I thought at least one hack-immune player might help balance against US and me. Now that I'm working for him, well, I'd have to pretend to think this even if I didn't, but remember that the reason town found out about US's role at all is because she was probably going to be lynched.
If that's not enough, look at the response to DBC's first call for a lynch on D2: "You're looking more like a cult leader than me." Seriously.

Vote: UniqueScreenname

There appear to be two large ninjas made of cheese here, but I'm putting this here anyway!

[Adam H]

What happens to the mid-day cyber action if hammer is reached before the mid-day cyber deadline? Is it lost, or does it come in at day-end for players who've submitted an action?

I will allow 24 hours after an early hammer for players to get in their cyber actions. Then after they have gotten results I will start the 48 hour deadline for night actions.

Can the hammered player submit a cyber action?

[UniqueScreenname]

Ok, I also don't know why I am less likely to be a townie than Snark. I don't know how to prove it, though. All I can point to is that I have given you all the information you've asked for and Snark has given you none. But if I am to be hammered, I'm at peace with the fact you will know the truth tomorrow.
Vote: Snark

[fshfood]

Ok, I wasn't sure of US's pro-town claim yesterday, and I'm still not sure I believe it. As I was back reading, this stuck out to me:

I obviously don't like KrO2's main plan, as I lose my only ally.

If US was town, wouldn't she be allied with us? US, would you care to elaborate?

I looked in the wiki and a rigger is a drone controller. Does anyone know from flavor knowledge if race usually makes any difference on possible alignment? I couldn't find anything in what I read.

Snark's counter claim does murky the waters a bit. But, we can deal with him tomorrow if need be.

I'm still at work, but will post more later.

But in the mean time, I stood by my analysis yesterday, and will continue to do so:

vote UniqueScreenname

[New User]

As far as I know about the Shadowrun flavor, humans and metahumans can be any alignment. Metahumans are something I left out of my original flavor analysis post, but they are elves, dwarfs, orks, and trolls, which are, for simplicity's sake, simply a different kind of human. They might have different physical characteristics, but I think that's the only real difference. I don't think a metahuman is any more likely to be good or evil, or to be more inclined to use magic or technology, or anything like that. DaBigCheez mentioned dragons earlier, and they have their own priorities in life. They can be allied with humans, but typically it seems that they use humans as pawns in their schemes, which involve allegiances and rivalries with other dragons. Lynx was a spirit, and I don't know anything about spirit alliances. Since I'm talking about the flavor, I must point out that lynx was revealed to be a Rat Spirit, and animal spirits are often associated with shamans. Examples of both of these points I mentioned is in the Shadowrun SNES game, where the final boss and ultimate antagonist was a dragon that was the grand evil puppet master pulling the strings of the plot. The player character in that game was revealed to be a shaman (who had amnesia). Specifically he was a Dog Shaman and was visited by dogs in his dreams and even apparitions of talking dogs while awake. If lynx was a mafia Rat Spirit, I expect there to be a mafia shaman as well. I don't know what that means though.

[UniqueScreenname]

Ok, I wasn't sure of US's pro-town claim yesterday, and I'm still not sure I believe it. As I was back reading, this stuck out to me:

I obviously don't like KrO2's main plan, as I lose my only ally.

If US was town, wouldn't she be allied with us? US, would you care to elaborate?

I meant the only person that actually had my back. He was also the only drone that I had. Since I'll probably get lynched anyway, I'll let you know that I'm partially wounded in my resistance stat and I have no armor, so drones would be my only defense. Also, all of my powers are cyber and mostly dealing with intel, so I can't defend myself. (I still don't really know what this means, though. One of these days, I will have flavor knowledge.)

[Snark]

New User, how are you gonna vote?

[DaBigCheez]

Unofficial Votals:

UniqueScreenname: 4 (Snark, DaBigCheez, KrO2, fshfood)
Snark: 1 (UniqueScreenname)

With 6 to lynch, I think she's currently at L-2, and we do presumably still have that secret squirrel vote floating around somewhere (unless it was Lynx's power as a Rat Spirit). Do we really need to end the day this quickly? (Note my lack of an unvote as I ask this question - this is not rhetorical)

Also in case it was missed earlier, I'll ask Adam H's question in a more obvious format:

If a player is hammered early in the day, can that player still submit a mid-day cyber action? That is, is the lynch processed before or after the mid-day cyber action in the event of a hammer?

[KrO2]

It'd be nice if we could have everyone post at least once before we hammer, so we know everyone's OK with it. Especially cameroni, since he's the main suspect for someone who might have been hacked.
But, yeah, preventing someone else from being hacked probably takes precedence. I for one would not like to be hacked again, because I can't think of any way I could defend her now.

[New User]

I apologize in advance, but this is a poorly organized bunch of sentences of my current thoughts. Basically, I haven't decided who to vote for yet.

Snark's telling the truth. Otherwise he wouldn't know that my controller had changed. Last night I received a PM that told me my controller had changed, that I should always play for my current win condition (which I suppose is now I win if Snark does), and that this might be hard because I wasn't being told who my new controller was. After cyber deadline I'll be able to get proof of who my new controller is, but for now as you can see I'm pretty much sure that it's Snark.

Bad news: I actually don't know if US's alliance is a cult or not. I was thinking it probably is, but never found out her win condition. I was going to get it verified day 2 but now I can't. Nevertheless, multiple town-friendly drone controllers does sound unlikely.

If we'll all grant that BoomFrog wouldn't have created two town drone controllers, what makes everyone sure that Snark is town and US is cult, and not the other way around? KrO2, you say that you can get proof of who your controller is. You also imply that you can verify the controller's win condition, but only the condition of the person who is controlling you. Am I interpreting that correctly? Snark claimed that he is immune to hacks. Would it make more sense for a town controller to be immune, or for a cult controller to be immune? I suppose they both could be. Of course, if Snark isn't a drone, and it was specified in his role PM that he is immune to hacks, that implies that players other than drones can be hacked. Then again, "drone controller" doesn't mean to me that he isn't a drone, whereas UniqueScreenname said she's a Troll Rigger, which is definitely not a drone. Snark claims that if we lynch US, and she comes back as townie, then we'll have his head. Would it be too late? He has already recruited KrO2. He can recruit another tonight. After today's lynch and tonight's night kill, there will be eight players left, at least three of which will be Snark's if he's cult. More if the cult started with more than one member. And what is he recruiting them for? US and KrO2 at least said that they have Neighbor/Mason chat. Snark hasn't said why he is motivated to control KrO2, and KrO2 said that even he didn't even know who his new controller is. They obviously don't have daytime chat, or that should have been the very first thing Snark would have told him.

[KrO2]

When I said extremely limited, I meant extremely. I can say whatever I want, but only once per Day and as far as I know it's one-way. I used the cyber action "Report," which allows me to send the mod a message to be forwarded to the controller. Early D1, I received a forwarded message containing some instructions, but I think that was a one-time thing. I was trying to get other people to think of it as similar to mason chat because I wanted people to think we weren't a cult, but really there's no chat going on.

To give you an idea of how limited it is: To find out who my controller was, I put in the message a request that they ask a question in their next post and end it with a question mark and a period, since nobody else would notice that. Until US used the "?." I thought the controller might be lynx. I said that in the message, so US can verify that if she feels inclined to. When I said she asked me not to claim that we were in the same faction, that was also true. I had asked her to start the first two sentences of some post with an "N" and an "O" respectively if I should try to keep that secret. I was going to try something similar D2 to ask if we were anti-town as well as anti-mafia, and this is how I plan to get my controller to prove their identity. Of course, it wouldn't have to be secretly this time.

I just remembered I should have told everyone the contents of that message from D1. I don't know if I can quote it directly, since it was from the mod even if forwarded from someone else, but I can reword it. It didn't include a username. My guess is US thought I would have been told that in my role PM; this is why I had to do the punctuation thing.
My controller (US) first told me her matrix icon. I can make that public if necessary, but I don't think it's necessarily a good idea. Besides, if I do she might publicize mine in retaliation. She said she was vulnerable to attack due to the injury she has since mentioned to everyone, and said that she wanted me to help her link MIs to usernames. If other players are hackable town, she can control them as well. If other players are mafia, we can simply attack them. I don't know whether this is similar to Snark's powers, and he's probably not going to want to say for the usual reasons, except that we know he can hack.

I'd assume he hacked me in preference to someone else because I am a drone and therefore known to be hackable, and also because he knows that deprives US of an ally. I just realized that US specified people need to be town to be hacked, and Snark hacked me. I'm technically not town, so I'm not sure what to make of this.

[UniqueScreenname]

See, when I sent that, I didn't realize you weren't given a specific alignment. I would have told you we were town if I had noticed. It makes sense now though, if anybody can claim you as their own.

Also, I don't know what this would mean, but it's incredibly difficult for me to hack. I need to associate MIs with usernames and then make sure the person I want to hack is a drone. It won't work under other circumstances. That's why I asked KrO2 to help me figure it out. I haven't hacked Cameroni because I don't know his MI. I can trace one MI at a time and be told who it belongs to, but I keep getting ICs that aren't connected to anyone. Also, I want people to realize how difficult it is for me to hack someone. I have to connect the username with the MI, then I have to make sure the person is a drone, then I can hack them. That would take up 3 actions, 2 if I skipped the step of asking if the person was a drone. If I sent a PM, that's taking away from me investigating. However, I already revealed that I found a Black IC, and now I'll tell you I found a Tarpit IC, which deletes the hacking power used upon it. So, I may not be able to trace people anymore.

All of this boils down to a couple of things. 1) Cameroni's opinions are his own, not influenced by me. 2) I now realize if bounty hunter = able to attack at night, then Tim may have been killed by the Black IC. If any other town can prove that they're town and would rather not be killed by it, I will reveal what it is, or maybe I'll PM it to them, since it seems impossible to do my job anymore. I'm no longer concerned about saving myself as much as I am making the mafia lose.

Oh, and I told KrO2 not to reveal we were working together so people wouldn't mistake me for a cult leader. Looks like I was right.

[UniqueScreenname]

EBWOP: Just realized I never finished my thought. I wanted to show how hard it is for me to hack to show that Snark seems to be more powerful than me. If he is scum, waiting a day to lynch him may change the numbers to the point that mafia success is inevitable.

[Snark]

If any other town can prove that they're town and would rather not be killed by it, I will reveal what it is, or maybe I'll PM it to them, since it seems impossible to do my job anymore.

You do realize that PMing other players is against the rules unless you have a power that specifically allows it, right?

[UniqueScreenname]

Yes, and I have a power that specifically allows it.

[UniqueScreenname]

Also, I'd like to point out that since claiming to be town, Snark hasn't even tried to convince anyone. He's just been attempting to wrangle in votes against me and looking for holes in my defense. He didn't even give any supporting evidence to his vote for me at the beginning of D2. He also only claimed to be town after DBC, who was trying to fact check my story, said he was starting to believe me! This is scummy behavior!

[Snark]

Snark claims that if we lynch US, and she comes back as townie, then we'll have his head. Would it be too late? He has already recruited KrO2. He can recruit another tonight.

I can't recruit another drone tonight. Please note all of US's revealed claims as to the information needed before taking a drone takes place. Those rules pertain to me as well. Only way I could get another recruit is if people started claiming MI's AND claimed whether or not they are drones.

Since scum got lynched D1, Idon't see how a 1/1 trade is good for scum at this point. In short, a game that required town to lynch scum/cult/indies two days in a row right off the bat would be horribly unbalanced.

@US
As a drone controller, I'm a huge asset to town. I don't apologize for playing in such a way to get you lynched without having to out myself as a power townie.

[UniqueScreenname]

As a drone controller, I'm a huge asset to town. I don't apologize for playing in such a way to get you lynched without having to out myself as a power townie.

However, you have yet to prove that that's actually what you are. And as that is what I am trying to prove I am, with different wording, you just sitting back and saying, "That's what I am," isn't enough. If you're wrong (and you are) it's great strategy to attempt to lynch a "huge asset to town" while slipping under the radar.

[BoomFrog]

If a player is hammered early in the day, can that player still submit a mid-day cyber action? That is, is the lynch processed before or after the mid-day cyber action in the event of a hammer?

The hammered player still gets their cyber action. The lynch and cyber actions will be processed simultaneously.

[New User]

Snark claims that if we lynch US, and she comes back as townie, then we'll have his head. Would it be too late? He has already recruited KrO2. He can recruit another tonight.

I can't recruit another drone tonight. Please note all of US's revealed claims as to the information needed before taking a drone takes place. Those rules pertain to me as well. Only way I could get another recruit is if people started claiming MI's AND claimed whether or not they are drones.

Since scum got lynched D1, Idon't see how a 1/1 trade is good for scum at this point. In short, a game that required town to lynch scum/cult/indies two days in a row right off the bat would be horribly unbalanced.

That means US also can't recruit tonight. I'd rather then concentrate on lynching mafia scum instead of US. Even if she is a cult leader, lynching her can wait. I suppose she could recruit KrO2 back to her side tonight, but even so, lynching mafia still takes priority. I'm content to let US and Snark fight over control of KrO2 while we root out the real threat.

ninja'd. She's right. I still can't be sure that you're town and not cult yourself.

[Cameroni101]

The reason I believe US and Kr02 is because lynx turned up scum while if found kr02 to be a drone. I can't believe that scum would target scum so I'm in the mindset that US is either town or indy. I'm still gonna hold back my vote until I see enough evidence to lynch US but do to recent developments, I'm leaning towards US.

[DaBigCheez]

Of course US can be indy. I don't think any of the discussion today was meant to imply that she's a member of the same faction (Mafia) as lynx was, but rather that she's an anti-town independent. I would frankly be absolutely shocked if she was scum in the sense of being the same faction as lynx.

That said, I'm growing increasingly uncertain of myself, especially as New User does make some good points re: Snark's towniness vs. UniqueScreenname's. So, for now at least,

Unvote

while I think about it, especially since a quick hammer wouldn't prevent any midday cyber action she had planned anyway.

[Snark]

As a drone controller, I'm a huge asset to town. I don't apologize for playing in such a way to get you lynched without having to out myself as a power townie.

However, you have yet to prove that that's actually what you are. And as that is what I am trying to prove I am, with different wording, you just sitting back and saying, "That's what I am," isn't enough. If you're wrong (and you are) it's great strategy to attempt to lynch a "huge asset to town" while slipping under the radar.

Tomorrow, I would get lynched if I was lying. You call this slipping under the radar? You're the only person that's down as confirmed anti-town in my book. You're gonna say whatever you can to avoid this lynch, and I may not feel like listening to all of it. If anyone else has questions or concerns (or wish to second something US says), I'd of course be happy to address them.

Snark claims that if we lynch US, and she comes back as townie, then we'll have his head. Would it be too late? He has already recruited KrO2. He can recruit another tonight.

I can't recruit another drone tonight. Please note all of US's revealed claims as to the information needed before taking a drone takes place. Those rules pertain to me as well. Only way I could get another recruit is if people started claiming MI's AND claimed whether or not they are drones.

Since scum got lynched D1, Idon't see how a 1/1 trade is good for scum at this point. In short, a game that required town to lynch scum/cult/indies two days in a row right off the bat would be horribly unbalanced.

That means US also can't recruit tonight. I'd rather then concentrate on lynching mafia scum instead of US. Even if she is a cult leader, lynching her can wait. I suppose she could recruit KrO2 back to her side tonight, but even so, lynching mafia still takes priority. I'm content to let US and Snark fight over control of KrO2 while we root out the real threat.

ninja'd. She's right. I still can't be sure that you're town and not cult yourself.

If town loses, I'm blaming you. Who says US isn't mafia herself?!?!?! How can you say we should concentrate on lynching mafia when we've got confirmed anti-town (possible mafia, possible cult) staring us in the face.

If US is mafia instead of cult, you're seriously implicating yourself to be her scumbuddy.

Do we really need to end the day this quickly? (Note my lack of an unvote as I ask this question - this is not rhetorical)]

If US is mafia instead of cult, her scumbuddies will accidentally on purpose forget to lynch her before the deadline. This is solved by lynching earlier instead of later.

Even if she gets a cyber action, it's still important to lynch her before the cyber deadline. If she manages to take KrO2 or someone else back over, then that'll be one less vote we can vote on to lynch US.

[New User]

It's possible that she's mafia, I suppose. It's also possible that you are mafia. I am going on the idea that she's anti-mafia because she told KrO2 initially that they could recruit hackable town, and kill mafia. From my point of view, that's just as strong evidence as your claims that she's anti-town, simply by claiming that you're town and it's not possible for you both to be town.