Bullied bus monitor given $500000 for being bad at her job.

[Ghostbear]

"You're off the bus. See you never!"

Yes, bus monitors have the power to do that! Why, if only she used her definitely available powers to kick somebody off the bus, this whole problem would have been averted.

Oh, what's that you say? Bus monitors have fuck-all for authority? The only power she has is to write students up, which she had done in the past, with null results? Oh my! It appears you're just victim blaming.

[poxic]

It's almost like some people have this notion that there are "high-quality people", like themselves, and "low-quality people", who simply deserve hasslin'. It's almost as though the notion that a "low-quality person" should get a pile of money for being "low quality" just drives them nuts.

[Tiberius]

And what would you do? What exactly can you say to a bully that will make them stop without sinking to their level?

"You're off the bus. See you never!"

You're assuming she has that power. For many parents the entire reason they have their kids taking the bus instead of walking home is because they feel it is safer that way. If a bus monitor did kick students off the bus and a bunch of parents complained, the result would probably be the bus monitor getting fired. If one of the kids was injured on the way home, for whatever reason, after getting kicked off of the bus, the school would be facing litigation.

The parents can take them home. This shit happens in every school district in every state in the country. You're not the first person to try to figure out how to deal with shitheads. When someone assaults a teacher or school employee it is dealt with.

@poxic when did i ever say she deserved this?

[Thesh]

My parents couldn't. They had these things called jobs.

Also, I was assuming you were talking about kicking them off immediately. They definitely don't have the power to ban students from using the bus.

[Tiberius]

My parents couldn't. They had these things called jobs.

Well then, that seems like a pretty good incentive to not be a shithead.

[Ghostbear]

This shit happens in every school district in every state in the country. You're not the first person to try to figure out how to deal with shitheads. When someone assaults a teacher or school employee it is dealt with.

What country do you live in and why are you assuming that the public school system of the US is universally comparable to that country's school system? I'd really like to know, it sounds impressive.

@poxic when did i ever say she deserved this?

The title is a good start.

[Thesh]

This shit happens in every school district in every state in the country. You're not the first person to try to figure out how to deal with shitheads. When someone assaults a teacher or school employee it is dealt with.

What country do you live in and why are you assuming that the public school system of the US is universally comparable to that country's school system? I'd really like to know, it sounds impressive.

Yeah, Fantasy Land sounds awesome.

[webzter_again]

I think it might be a good idea to start a fundraiser on Indiegogo to get Tiberius a job as a school bus monitor. I would probably donate $100 to that.

[Tiberius]

This shit happens in every school district in every state in the country. You're not the first person to try to figure out how to deal with shitheads. When someone assaults a teacher or school employee it is dealt with.

What country do you live in and why are you assuming that the public school system of the US is universally comparable to that country's school system? I'd really like to know, it sounds impressive.

Yeah, Fantasy Land sounds awesome.

Do you really believe that every single school in the US is just like that? Most schools in the US are pretty ok or at least not the lawless clusterfuck you make them out to be. So unless you honestly believe that the norm is actually just a gigantic series of flukes, then there exists a way to keep shitheads in line which you seem certain does not exist. You can complain about how powerless everyone is but empirical evidence says that that is just horse shit. It's really not that complicated.If you can just step away from the weak belief that nobody has the power to be anything but a victim you would understand.

[Thesh]

We said bus monitors are powerless, not everyone. Also, I don't think anyone said schools are lawless, quite the opposite actually.

[Ghostbear]

Do you really believe that every single school in the US is just like that? Most schools in the US are pretty ok or at least not the lawless clusterfuck you make them out to be. So unless you honestly believe that the norm is actually just a gigantic series of flukes, then there exists a way to keep shitheads in line which you seem certain does not exist.

And not one of those means of authority are available to bus monitors. Schools do have some means of projecting their authority, but in a practical sense, they benefit more from the fact that most students don't want to cause such a level of hassle. Parents can be sue happy, or willing to yell at the school board, or just willing to make life miserable for an administrator, if they think their precious angel is being unfairly reported for being a nuisance; this is not helped by the fact that many times, that's exactly what is happening.

What authority do you think a bus monitor actually has to punish kids? They can't kick them off the boss, they can't insult them back, they can't touch them, if they report them to higher authorities it gets ignored, if they involve higher authorities directly (e.g. the police) then it just shows a weakness to the fucktards -- since it means that they can't actually deal with the problem on their own. Literally the only power someone like this woman has is to write the student up to the administration. If the administration doesn't act on that (which it is unlikely to do so), then she has no actual authority. They're more there to prevent/observe outright illegalities (fighting, drugs, etc.) than to be expected to do accomplish anything. Every solution you have offered that this lady could have taken is a solution that she did not have the power to use!

[stevey_frac]

About the only thing she could potentially do after the fact, is talk to the parents. Most kids don't want their parents finding out they are behaving like douchebags.

Even that's really tenuous, and not all parents will be receptive.

[Zamfir]

We have established:
- People can give money to bus drivers for any reason
- Tiberius is OK with that
- So it doesn't matter if she did her job well or not. The Bieber gets lots of money as well

Time to move on. For example, is there something specific about this case that triggers such widespread sympathy? Or is it just a weird effect of the internetz (I think I mentioned the Bieber)?

I thought Lucrece had a good point earlier, that kids get bullied like this as well, but reactions are different and usually less sympathetic.

[KnightExemplar]

Well, for me, it probably is because I had an after-school monitor who was treated similarly when I was in middle school. She wasn't a bus monitor, but it was a similar kind of job: watch the kids after school until parents could pick up the kids.

I can't really go back and thank her for her job now that I'm older (the school I went to is now closed down), but I do remember her acts of kindness to me during those times... and how other kids would bully her because she was overly kind.

[lutzj]

Well, for me, it probably is because I had an after-school monitor who was treated similarly when I was in middle school. She wasn't a bus monitor, but it was a similar kind of job: watch the kids after school until parents could pick up the kids.

I can't really go back and thank her for her job now that I'm older (the school I went to is now closed down), but I do remember her acts of kindness to me during those times... and how other kids would bully her because she was overly kind.

This is probably a big reason for the sympathy towards Klein. Lots of people can relate to knowing a sweet, elderly member of their school's staff whom the kids all crapped on. Lots of people have caring grandparents whose honor they would protect relentlessly. Unfortunately, being older, they die or are otherwise gone before we develop the maturity to appreciate them more, and being so generous to Klein could serve as a way to atone for that. It doesn't get much more compelling on the sympathy front than a nice, hardworking old lady.

Spoiler:

So, $10, (5 to spite Tiberius and 5 as an "actual" donation), and I'm calling my two grandparents that have worked in schools.

[Bears!]

I'm not convinced the reaction is necessarily something unique to this story. I see it more as an example of how visible violence and hatred can trigger stronger emotions than something we're disconnected from. It's something I'd have to look into a little more deeply (because evidence may not always support this belief), but I'm relatively confident it's generally true: the further removed people are from suffering, the less they tend to engage with it emotionally. I have a sneaking suspicion that when images or videos of children being bullied have been posted on the internet, the response has been pretty strong as well. I think the response here appears exaggerated ("why so much money?") because people associate relief for adults with things like vacation, break time, release from financial burdens, etc., while for kids it's more along the lines of "which of your heroes would you most like to meet in the world?" (vis-a-vis the Make-A-Wish Foundation, for example).

I think the other reason there is such a phenomenal response to this video is that it reinforces the "children are becoming more disrespectful of authorities in their lives" narrative that is so pervasive. People like seeing other people pay for the suffering they've caused (which is of course the prerogative of vengeance), and when this imperative mixes with a longstanding cultural narrative, we can expect an explosive response.

[kiklion]

So is the 'topic' of this thread the donations or the bullying itself?

As for the bullying, has anything actually happened to prevent this from happening again? That is my biggest complaint about the donations. News articles that I have seen are focusing on what happened and how people donated money to her... and completely drops the ball on using it as a point that change needs to occur in the school system.

[fifiste]

Hmm. That is a point. This old lady can now go take a lifetime of vacation. In the meantime someone other has to step in her place on the bus and if the school policies have not changed then quite likely someone else has entered a world of abuse.

[Ceron]

This school district received national coverage for its ineptitude in handling student misbehavior. I highly doubt they're going to continue to let it happen (at least for a while until they're out of the spotlight).

[Kizor]

Time to move on. For example, is there something specific about this case that triggers such widespread sympathy? Or is it just a weird effect of the internetz (I think I mentioned the Bieber)?

I'd guess that many can intensely relate to it. Many of us have vivid memories of the malicious little bastards, revelling in the pain of others, smugly making a mockery of all authorities, retaliating to any attempt to make them lose their power over us, filling our lives with paranoia and despair so that they could get their jollies, going out with their friends to laugh and get drunk while we're left fearing school, fearing the streets, fearing for our families, fearing for our lives, making plans to defend our homes, tainting us with fear, rage, and vengeance, making us ever more like their evil! Oh, how I fantasized about revenge!

So that's what I'd guess.

[The Great Hippo]

The thing I've learned about interacting with bullies is--there's really no way to beat them. Not when they're both hellbent on trying to destroy your self-worth via any means at their disposal, and are at least moderately clever about it. If you have no power with which to modify their behavior (i.e., create a circumstance where bullying you is no longer worth the cost), these are just situations where you can't win. Engaging them is already admitting defeat.

'Ignore the bully' is a shitty type of response, too, because I've known plenty of bullies who respond to that sort of thing by immediately getting physical (it's hard to ignore being spat upon, or shoved down a flight of stairs, or punched in the face, or something personal of yours stolen). These are just no-win scenarios. I've never been able to find a way to spell out a decisive victory beyond increasing the cost of bullying so much that it's no longer worth it, and it's often very hard to increase the cost without coming off as... well, an asshole (calling the police on a bully, for example). But that's pretty much all you can do--escalate the situation to its most extreme solution or somehow remove yourself from the situation.

I'd go so far to say that bullying isn't a type of behavior you can do anything about when you're the victim, unless you have a substantial amount of power over the bullies (i.e., you can increase the cost), and most bullies are smart enough not to bully people who have power over them. This is a problem that can only be handled by responsible people with power using that power to increase the cost of bullying.

[kiklion]

This school district received national coverage for its ineptitude in handling student misbehavior. I highly doubt they're going to continue to let it happen (at least for a while until they're out of the spotlight).

I don't share your beliefs. I don't think the school just let it happen before. The powers that be probably are constrained with virulent parents just as much as the bus monitor was limited by virulent kids. There is no real way to punish a kid if they don't choose to follow your beliefs. You can yell and berate them, but at this point they don't care about you or your opinions. Violence is looked down on and there are fears about the CPA.

Bullying was incredibly minor at my school due to a small school size and a varied student population. (Well we were almost all white, but varied interests and wealth.) Kids ranged from living out of a boat to being the son of a multi-millionaire (possibly billions by now). The glue that kept the kids from fighting was how interconnected the students were. Every clique or group had overlap with other groups. You make fun of the hall monitor? Well that was timmy's mother and everyone on the soccer/winter track/lacrosse team would abandon you. Make fun of the goth's/anime crowd and you shouldn't expect that last leg of the relay to do well in the 4x400 out of spite.

[The Great Hippo]

Bullying was incredibly minor at my school due to a small school size and a varied student population. (Well we were almost all white, but varied interests and wealth.)

Are you sure this was the case? Part of the problem with bullying is our inability to correctly measure it--we often assume that because we aren't bullied (and it appeared none of our friends are bullied)--and because no one complains about bullying--that there isn't a problem. But a lot of people who are bullied quickly learn that attention leads to an increase in bullying, not a decrease--so they do everything in their power to not draw attention to themselves. Including not reporting bullying when it happens.

This basically means you're trying to measure a phenomenon where all involved parties (bullies and the victims) have an incentive to not report the phenomenon. Accurately measuring the scope of the problem is complex, and requires a lot of work.

EDIT:

There is no real way to punish a kid if they don't choose to follow your beliefs.

Also, I disagree with this sentiment--there are ways to punish kids (and adults) who disagree with your beliefs. You just increase the cost of the behavior until the cost is higher than the reward for the behavior. I mean, there are people who put a lot of value on a certain type of behavior--and there are people who don't care about the cost in the short-term ("I'm gonna do X, and worry about the consequences of X when they happen rather than now"), but part of education is teaching children not to think like that--demonstrating to them that long-term cost analysis is something they should be interested in. And one way we can do that is by giving them examples: Like showing them what the cost of continued bullying will be, and why that cost is relevant to them.

If we encounter children who remain bullies regardless of our attempts to change their behavior, well--that's something we'll have to deal with, obviously. I don't think these children are in the majority, though. I suspect bullying represents a lack of adequate education (in respects to emotional maturity and critical thinking skills--two areas that are woefully underrepresented in our schools), and while there are some bullies we can't 'teach' out of their behavior, there are probably many more we can.

Making children into better people--more reasonable, more critical, more emotionally stable human beings--that's what schools are (or should be) all about. To me, bullying represents a sign of inadequate instruction and leadership.

[hawkinsssable]

This is one of those rare scenarios where the universe just works. Thank you, internet, for making me happy for once.

[kiklion]

Spoiler:

Bullying was incredibly minor at my school due to a small school size and a varied student population. (Well we were almost all white, but varied interests and wealth.)

Are you sure this was the case? Part of the problem with bullying is our inability to correctly measure it--we often assume that because we aren't bullied (and it appeared none of our friends are bullied)--and because no one complains about bullying--that there isn't a problem. But a lot of people who are bullied quickly learn that attention leads to an increase in bullying, not a decrease--so they do everything in their power to not draw attention to themselves. Including not reporting bullying when it happens.

This basically means you're trying to measure a phenomenon where all involved parties (bullies and the victims) have an incentive to not report the phenomenon. Accurately measuring the scope of the problem is complex, and requires a lot of work.

EDIT:

There is no real way to punish a kid if they don't choose to follow your beliefs.

Also, I disagree with this sentiment--there are ways to punish kids (and adults) who disagree with your beliefs. You just increase the cost of the behavior until the cost is higher than the reward for the behavior. I mean, there are people who put a lot of value on a certain type of behavior--and there are people who don't care about the cost in the short-term ("I'm gonna do X, and worry about the consequences of X when they happen rather than now"), but part of education is teaching children not to think like that--demonstrating to them that long-term cost analysis is something they should be interested in. And one way we can do that is by giving them examples: Like showing them what the cost of continued bullying will be, and why that cost is relevant to them.

If we encounter children who remain bullies regardless of our attempts to change their behavior, well--that's something we'll have to deal with, obviously. I don't think these children are in the majority, though. I suspect bullying represents a lack of adequate education (in respects to emotional maturity and critical thinking skills--two areas that are woefully underrepresented in our schools), and while there are some bullies we can't 'teach' out of their behavior, there are probably many more we can.

Making children into better people--more reasonable, more critical, more emotionally stable human beings--that's what schools are (or should be) all about. To me, bullying represents a sign of inadequate instruction and leadership.

In my school, yes. There was an issue in elementary school and early middle school before sports and clubs were available. Afterwards there wasn't. Kids have bad days, kids got angry at each other, but there was very little/no bullying among the majority of the students. Meaning that it wasn't constant and consistent. The class size was about ~150, the whole high school was maybe 575 students? Between having a small school and high extracurricular activity rate, people were too ingrained to bother bullying each other. The only segment that I cannot attest to at all would be the mentally disabled students. They had their own special classes, typically didn't partake in sports or activities, and pretty much had no contact with them. They even had their own wing for most of their classes.

You just increase the cost of the behavior until the cost is higher than the reward for the behavior.
The problem being that society says that you can't increase the cost of the behavior. Being that they are kids, they have an advantage of being a protected class of society. Say some kid is shooting spitballs at the teacher, teacher orders him out of the class room and he says no. You going to call security? Who then comes and tries to forcibly remove the student and in the act the student breaks a limb/sprains a joint. That's a nice lawsuit on your hands.

The best people I have found to combat bullying is other kids. Every teacher/parent/adult is starting off losing as the child has the advantage in a perverse 'We must protect the children!' mentality. This is why my parents instructed me to intervene in bullying when I was in elementary school. I had less to lose (a days suspension or a talk with the principal MAYBE and only because of an incredibly foolish zero tolerance policy) compared to a teacher forcibly stopping a student.

[The Great Hippo]

In my school, yes. There was an issue in elementary school and early middle school before sports and clubs were available. Afterwards there wasn't. Kids have bad days, kids got angry at each other, but there was very little/no bullying among the majority of the students. Meaning that it wasn't constant and consistent. The class size was about ~150, the whole high school was maybe 575 students? Between having a small school and high extracurricular activity rate, people were too ingrained to bother bullying each other. The only segment that I cannot attest to at all would be the mentally disabled students. They had their own special classes, typically didn't partake in sports or activities, and pretty much had no contact with them. They even had their own wing for most of their classes.

What I'm asking is: How are you sure? You're quoting statistics about your school and stating that 'Because of X, there was less bullying'; but X is not evidence of less bullying--at best, it only decreases the likelihood of bullying (and you haven't offered any evidence that X actually does effectively decrease bullying--though it certainly sounds like it would!).

When people say things like 'there was very little bullying at my school', that sends up a red flag in my head. If your only context in this school was as a student--and you weren't involved in any administration-level programs to combat or measure bullying behavior--I think it's fair to say you probably don't know how much bullying was going on at all.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong--I'm just saying that if your only context was as a student, you might not have all the necessary data to make any reasonably accurate claims about the level of bullying.

You just increase the cost of the behavior until the cost is higher than the reward for the behavior.
The problem being that society says that you can't increase the cost of the behavior. Being that they are kids, they have an advantage of being a protected class of society. Say some kid is shooting spitballs at the teacher, teacher orders him out of the class room and he says no. You going to call security? Who then comes and tries to forcibly remove the student and in the act the student breaks a limb/sprains a joint. That's a nice lawsuit on your hands.

The best people I have found to combat bullying is other kids. Every teacher/parent/adult is starting off losing as the child has the advantage in a perverse 'We must protect the children!' mentality. This is why my parents instructed me to intervene in bullying when I was in elementary school. I had less to lose (a days suspension or a talk with the principal MAYBE and only because of an incredibly foolish zero tolerance policy) compared to a teacher forcibly stopping a student.

Although I'm not a professional educator (still working on it!), one of the solutions I think warrants more investigation (in my highly inexperienced view) is one that involves forming anti-bullying clubs among students and encouraging students to identify bullies and their victims and enforce social pressure to reduce bullying behavior (and support other students who regularly get bullied). This, of course, falls under 'increasing the cost of negative behavior'--by making part of the cost of bullying become a loss of social status (as an aside, I don't support violence toward bullies, except as a means to prevent violence toward victims--to me, violence always represents a failure of policy--never a reasonable expression of it).

As for the issues you bring up with security--do you work in the education industry? I don't ask to be hostile; I don't work in the industry myself (I'm working on becoming a teacher now, so I'm learning about a lot of this stuff as I go), and I'm asking because you're bringing up a very specific situation that many schools have already had to address, and have already developed a number of different answers to.

We've got a lot of options as far as addressing the problem of bullies go, and I think while part of the problem might be our unwillingness to roll up our sleeves and 'get our hands dirty' (i.e., stop treating children like they're made out of magical fairy dust), I also think part of the problem is a desire to sweep bullying under the rug so our schools look nicer than they actually are--that, along with a mentality that the people who get bullied deserve it, or should have taken actions to make themselves less vulnerable to bullying (a perspective we've seen expressed in this very thread).

[Kaiyas]

Although I'm not a professional educator (still working on it!), one of the solutions I think warrants more investigation (in my highly inexperienced view) is one that involves forming anti-bullying clubs among students and encouraging students to identify bullies and their victims and enforce social pressure to reduce bullying behavior (and support other students who regularly get bullied). This, of course, falls under 'increasing the cost of negative behavior'--by making part of the cost of bullying become a loss of social status (as an aside, I don't support violence toward bullies, except as a means to prevent violence toward victims--to me, violence always represents a failure of policy--never a reasonable expression of it).

I think this is an awesome idea, and I think if you could set up such a system it would work brilliantly; it's basically peer pressure for a beneficial effect. I just have have a few questions about how one would establish this sort of system.

If bullying is common in a school, how do you keep the kids who join first from being socially stigmatized as well? Nobody likes a tattler, as they say.
Any idea what a "critical mass" for the size of such a club would be?
Kids can be subject to mob mentality/overzealousness. How do we maintain a system like this? I'm thinking some sort of staff advisor would be the norm for this, but I don't actually have a clue and would like to know any other methods that can/have been used.

[Chen]

I think this is an awesome idea, and I think if you could set up such a system it would work brilliantly; it's basically peer pressure for a beneficial effect. I just have have a few questions about how one would establish this sort of system.

If bullying is common in a school, how do you keep the kids who join first from being socially stigmatized as well? Nobody likes a tattler, as they say.
Any idea what a "critical mass" for the size of such a club would be?
Kids can be subject to mob mentality/overzealousness. How do we maintain a system like this? I'm thinking some sort of staff advisor would be the norm for this, but I don't actually have a clue and would like to know any other methods that can/have been used.

The issue is getting the initial momentum I'd think. Its rare for bullies to be bullying the popular kids. They'll likely target the ones who don't have large social support structures from other students. There needs to be a way to get the popular bully targets together in a way that they can enforce the social pressure that will get the bullies to stop. This to me seems like the difficult part. How do you get the socially unpopular kids together so that they can enforce social pressure? And how do you ensure the grouping (anti-bullying club or whatnot) isn't ostracized in and of itself? To play on stereotypes for a moment, if all the jocks think the club is for losers, what's to prevent them from continuing to bully?

[darkone238]

Looks like the kids are getting at least some punishment http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/29/us/new-yo ... ?hpt=hp_t2

[Pez Dispens3r]

Although I'm not a professional educator (still working on it!), one of the solutions I think warrants more investigation (in my highly inexperienced view) is one that involves forming anti-bullying clubs among students and encouraging students to identify bullies and their victims and enforce social pressure to reduce bullying behavior (and support other students who regularly get bullied). This, of course, falls under 'increasing the cost of negative behavior'--by making part of the cost of bullying become a loss of social status (as an aside, I don't support violence toward bullies, except as a means to prevent violence toward victims--to me, violence always represents a failure of policy--never a reasonable expression of it).

I've seen this, just as an FYI. I was a student teacher a couple of years ago, and we had this group of grade 8's and 9's who would tend to hang-out in large groups, would hug each other quite a lot, and when someone tried to bully an individual kid it was like watching a flock of birds swoop on an intruder. It was bemusing for the staff, because it was great but no one could figure out how to reproduce it. The staff who cared, I should say; there were a few teachers there who didn't think much of the students at all and used the term 'no-hoper' quite a lot. (Is that a term Americans use? It means someone beyond help, likely to become a homeless drug-addict or whatever other social bogeyman you can imagine.)

I had the privilege of being a student teacher in another school where the staff were very savvy to bullying, and worked hard to help students in crisis, but it wasn't enough to stop the bullying. It just encouraged a climate where the bullies worked very hard to be cosy with the teachers. (Which the teachers were also savvy to, but my god it made for a delicate mess.)

If there's a take-home message I have to offer, assuming you hadn't realized it already a long time ago, it's that you should look for groups of students who are already overflowing with social capital (kids who hug each other, for example) and foster the shit out of that, making them the example other kids will want to emulate. Further, I was a victim of bullying for most of my formative years, and as a student-teacher I was available to develop some insights as a fresh-faced outsider that might escape the notice of institutionalized staff. I'd welcome the opportunity to be CC'd into any further brainstorms you have on this topic.