Diablo III

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:15 pm UTC

I'm getting back into WD, I went with a full mana regen build. He breaks the 150 mana regen barrier which means I can pretty much spam acid cloud as a primary attack. He's only 45k DPS but when your primary attack is an AOE 230% of weapon damage bomb, it makes up for a lot ;)
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Metaphysician » Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:01 pm UTC

mosc wrote:I'm getting back into WD, I went with a full mana regen build. He breaks the 150 mana regen barrier which means I can pretty much spam acid cloud as a primary attack. He's only 45k DPS but when your primary attack is an AOE 230% of weapon damage bomb, it makes up for a lot ;)


Nice, I've been getting some decent WD drops left and right on my Monk so I've considered levelling one.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:42 am UTC

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Metaphysician » Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:11 am UTC

I have been running Tempest Rush build on my Monk and it's a lot of fun. I can average about 33-40 million xp per hour with it right now... that will go up once I am able to build the ideal build that will allow me infinite TR... that build is about 100 million or so gold away since I need an extremely sick Xeph Amulet to make it happen. I also need to get on making a build that will allow me to farm up some keys and do some ubers so I can make myself a hellfire ring.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:01 pm UTC

I've been working on making a ring as well, but it's hard because my barb can only handle key runs at mp6, and I haven't been brave enough to try ubers on anything higher than mp5. I've only done the ubers twice though, most of my time is spent doing mp1 for paragon leveling and hunting for items.

There are a couple upgrades I need for my barb before I want to put too much time into doing ubers. He's still only at 12% move speed, so I need to get him Lacuni Prowlers with at least 4% crit and at least 50 AR so I don't lose too much EHP. Tyrael's would be nice but I already have a really good IK chest. Inna's pants wouldn't be bad but I would lose well over 100k EHP with those over my current pants, which is not something I would want as EHP is essential for doing ubers. I need about 10-20 mil more gold before I can afford a good pair of Lacuni's. Though, with the rate at which item prices have been dropping maybe I'll just wait another week or two and see how much lower the prices can get...

Barb profile, for reference.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:31 pm UTC

Obby wrote:I've been working on making a ring as well, but it's hard because my barb can only handle key runs at mp6, and I haven't been brave enough to try ubers on anything higher than mp5. I've only done the ubers twice though, most of my time is spent doing mp1 for paragon leveling and hunting for items.

There are a couple upgrades I need for my barb before I want to put too much time into doing ubers. He's still only at 12% move speed, so I need to get him Lacuni Prowlers with at least 4% crit and at least 50 AR so I don't lose too much EHP. Tyrael's would be nice but I already have a really good IK chest. Inna's pants wouldn't be bad but I would lose well over 100k EHP with those over my current pants, which is not something I would want as EHP is essential for doing ubers. I need about 10-20 mil more gold before I can afford a good pair of Lacuni's. Though, with the rate at which item prices have been dropping maybe I'll just wait another week or two and see how much lower the prices can get...

Barb profile, for reference.


For rings I'd suggest grouping for the Ubers. Its much more efficient machine wise and there's more benefit having more players since they reduced the hp scaling. Either that or find a group willing to run through MP8-10 if you provide the machines. There are plenty who do it for free.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Fri Jan 04, 2013 9:57 pm UTC

I have a CM sorcy if you guys want to drop me a message ingame sometime (US servers) for ubers or keys. You won't take much damage even at mp8 if you stay close. Built her for cheap to hit 2.74 APS, 18 APOC, 40% CC, and 800 LOH. ~17m in gear total and most of that in the witching hour. Doesn't do too much damage but in a group you can use her to get people through at much higher MP levels. I like going with barbs, the +res buff is huge.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Diadem » Tue Jan 08, 2013 12:52 pm UTC

I've gone back to playing Diablo after not playing for a few months. I think I last played a month or so after release.

What are the major changes? Much better loot, paragon levels, easier mobs (haven't died once since coming back). But what else? I hear rumours about keys and ubers?

Also there seem to have been a lot of balance changes. What's the best wizard build out there these days?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:59 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:I've gone back to playing Diablo after not playing for a few months. I think I last played a month or so after release.

What are the major changes? Much better loot, paragon levels, easier mobs (haven't died once since coming back). But what else? I hear rumours about keys and ubers?

Also there seem to have been a lot of balance changes. What's the best wizard build out there these days?


There are keywardens in acts 1-3 and a guy who drops the plans for the Infernal Machine in act 4. One key from each act combines into the machine. You then use the machine to fight a pair of uber bosses (there are 3 random pairs). Each pair can drop one organ. One of each organs combines into a hellfire ring which has ~150-200 of a prime stat (your choice), +35% bonus xp, a chance on hit to launch a hellfire ball (does ~20k damage I think) and 4 (I think) random properties. It has no level req so throwing one on a level 1 char is horribly OP. The 20k damage fireball will one shot pretty much anything for a long while too. Chance for a key or organ to drop is 5% at MP0 and 10% per MP level otherwise. You need 5 stacks of valor to get a key/organ to drop.

As for Wizards the two main builds are CM/WW and Archon. CM/WW uses critical mass passive and wicked wind and explosive blast to reset the cooldowns on diamond skin and frost nova to pretty much permanently freeze and kill everything. Can add other skills to taste like teleport-calamity, the lightning armor skill that now shocks things in range every second etc. Archon generally runs all the damage increasing skills (glass cannon, familiar-sparkflint, Magic weapon) and stays in Archon the entire time by killing the high density mobs in many act 3 areas (Craters, Rakkis, Fields of Slaughter, Keep Depths etc). Archon is generally the most efficient for farming though it needs to be done at low MP (MP0-3 depending on your dps). CM/WW is much better for running high MP key/uber runs. Lower MP seems to be much better for farming since the HP increase at high MP levels is way out of whack with the bonus xp/mf/drop chance. I run MP1-2 farming with Archon and then MP5 when farming keys. For Ubers I'll either run at MP5-6 with any normal group (each person using one machine) or I'll use all 3 of my machines and have a higher power group do most of the lifting on a higher MP level (MP8-10)

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Jan 08, 2013 2:43 pm UTC

How many times can you use an infernal machine?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:13 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:How many times can you use an infernal machine?


Its consumed when you use it. So you need to collect the keys each time you want to open a portal to an uber boss. You only need to farm the plan once though (which is good because Act 4 is a pain in the ass to farm).

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Diadem » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:20 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Diadem wrote:I've gone back to playing Diablo after not playing for a few months. I think I last played a month or so after release.

What are the major changes? Much better loot, paragon levels, easier mobs (haven't died once since coming back). But what else? I hear rumours about keys and ubers?

Also there seem to have been a lot of balance changes. What's the best wizard build out there these days?


There are keywardens in acts 1-3 and a guy who drops the plans for the Infernal Machine in act 4. One key from each act combines into the machine. You then use the machine to fight a pair of uber bosses (there are 3 random pairs). Each pair can drop one organ. One of each organs combines into a hellfire ring which has ~150-200 of a prime stat (your choice), +35% bonus xp, a chance on hit to launch a hellfire ball (does ~20k damage I think) and 4 (I think) random properties. It has no level req so throwing one on a level 1 char is horribly OP. The 20k damage fireball will one shot pretty much anything for a long while too. Chance for a key or organ to drop is 5% at MP0 and 10% per MP level otherwise. You need 5 stacks of valor to get a key/organ to drop.

As for Wizards the two main builds are CM/WW and Archon. CM/WW uses critical mass passive and wicked wind and explosive blast to reset the cooldowns on diamond skin and frost nova to pretty much permanently freeze and kill everything. Can add other skills to taste like teleport-calamity, the lightning armor skill that now shocks things in range every second etc. Archon generally runs all the damage increasing skills (glass cannon, familiar-sparkflint, Magic weapon) and stays in Archon the entire time by killing the high density mobs in many act 3 areas (Craters, Rakkis, Fields of Slaughter, Keep Depths etc). Archon is generally the most efficient for farming though it needs to be done at low MP (MP0-3 depending on your dps). CM/WW is much better for running high MP key/uber runs. Lower MP seems to be much better for farming since the HP increase at high MP levels is way out of whack with the bonus xp/mf/drop chance. I run MP1-2 farming with Archon and then MP5 when farming keys. For Ubers I'll either run at MP5-6 with any normal group (each person using one machine) or I'll use all 3 of my machines and have a higher power group do most of the lifting on a higher MP level (MP8-10)

Sounds good. Thanks for the tips.

What kind of gear level do I need for all this? Currently I have about 50K dps and 46K life. Not a very high crit chance though, I'm not geared for that.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:39 pm UTC

Both builds benefit from attack speed and crit chance at the expense of all other stats if nessisary. CM wizards need good resistances and LOH as well.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:54 pm UTC

To comfortably keep Archon up 100% I'd want somewhere near 100k dps with buffs. You could probably manage with 75k on MP0 though you might end up with downtime if you don't plan your armor/magic weapon/familiar refreshes well. For Archon sheet DPS is all you need. You don't use up any Arcane power so everything that increases DPS will increase your killing speed with Archon. 46k HP is a lot, probably more than you'd need for Archon (depending on your resists). I think I was able to comfortably keep Archon up 100% of the time on MP1 with ~125k dps, 400 all res (pre-archon) and about 30k health.

CM needs high crit and attack speed so you can keep refreshing your abilities. All res, HP and LOH are needed (as Mosc said) since you WILL take hits and die pretty quickly without. For Archon I'm finding Blood Magic on Magic weapon sufficient to keep me alive, though a weapon with life steal would make it even easier (but a good 1 handed, life steal, socket, crit damage weapon is ABSURDLY expensive).

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:21 pm UTC

Archon at mp0 is easy with even 50k DPS if you have enough crit chance and attack speed. You prot often enough, you can get archon up in a few seconds. It limits you to the more densely populated areas of act 3, but if you're just getting started it works very well.

course, if you really want to level a character fast and make some gold, make a monk. Nothing clears low mp like a monk, especially if you have a total gear price in the 1-10m range.

On the one handed weapon front, you can get whatever you want if you compromise on damage. Average damage jewelry can make a big difference making some 700dps cd/os/ls weapon into something godly if you have >100 pts of it. It's generally an under priced mod these days, something to think about. You might look at some 1200 damage 1 hander and think it would do more but if your CC and average damage is high enough, it won't. This effect is magnified for monks and barbs that use 2x weapons. The weapon damage is half as important in comparison to the other stats. My monk reaches 100k DPS with two weapons that have below 760 dps each.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:08 pm UTC

Snapshotting on a Monk makes it absurdly easy to hit high DPS numbers. Calculated out, my monk averages around 400k DPS when I snapshot properly, and that's without any gear swaps, even though his sheet DPS is only around 70k. The only problem with that is his EHP is absurdly low, so he can't live long enough to deal that kind of damage. Solely relegated to MP0 until I can get some more life and AR on him.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:22 pm UTC

May be too late now but some Blue posts mentioned that Brimstones would be used in the new BoA amulet crafting. As such Brimstones have once again doubled in price. Similarly the gloves seem to need the regular inferno level essences to craft (from some datamined post on reddit). If people have money to risk investing in these now could be good, though it was mentioned these costs are subject to change.

Last week with the 1.07 announcement flawless square amethysts and topazes almost tripled in price and flawless square rubies increased 10x in price. Woulda been a good time to invest in those. I suspect amethysts will continue increasing in price after the patch with the new dueling since people will want more HP.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Lostdreams » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:28 pm UTC

No more Jay Wilson in my D3, glorious.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Diadem » Fri Jan 18, 2013 11:07 pm UTC

Is Jay Wilson really to blame for the poor support and pace of development so far in the game? It's a huge game, he does't make all the decisions alone, does he?


By the way: I could use some people to play with. Anyone playing in Europe?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Menacing Spike » Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:40 am UTC

Diadem wrote:Is Jay Wilson really to blame for the poor support and pace of development so far in the game? It's a huge game, he does't make all the decisions alone, does he?


well he was the director

that was kind of his, you know, responsibility

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:58 pm UTC

I'm still enjoying the game fine. Its the standard grind your ass for loot game. I haven't played the newer patches for D2 but I remember getting just as much shitty loot there as I did in D3. Sure you'd have uniques and set pieces dropping left and right, but getting sigon's gloves from Hell Mephisto for the nth time is just as frustrating as getting that rare with 20 Str on it in D3. I gotta wonder what % of the playes actually disliked the game compared to what I'm reading on the net. I mean the AHs are still completely full of stuff so clearly people are still playing.

Anyway, I suspect they're going to have to upgrade the new Ruby design that is on the PTR since it is still generally inferior to the emeralds. While they're at it they should probably change the rest of the rubies too since most people can't actually afford an ~60m gem for their weapon. I haven't tried much of the PvP but its pretty much what I expected. Tons of one-two shots and hectic running around. Sorta what random dueling always ended up like in D2. Once people regear and refocus though I suspect it could be somewhat fun, though PvP never really held me interest in these games to begin with.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:11 pm UTC

The ruby will actually outdamage the emerald when the damage is applied correctly. Currently on PTR it's not working properly.

See: http://www.d3rawr.com/forum/incorrect-d ... r-t96.html

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:35 pm UTC

I can't see that link from work, but is it regarding the bug about the "minmaxdamage is not being applied correctly" that is in the known issues thread? A lot of people are actually worried this is a nerf to "black" dps weapons. Hopefully it does just have to do with gems/jewelery (where if your + max damage is less than your +min damage the max damage doesn't get applied).

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:07 pm UTC

Correct. It's just outright not being applied correctly in pretty much all circumstances. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it, but d3 rawr calculates it properly while PTR does not. It's got a link to a blue post confirming the bug on PTR.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:49 pm UTC

Mishrak wrote:Correct. It's just outright not being applied correctly in pretty much all circumstances. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it, but d3 rawr calculates it properly while PTR does not. It's got a link to a blue post confirming the bug on PTR.


The damage equation is FAR more complicated than what that post explains (I'm home now so I checked :P). There was a note in 1.03 patch that stated roughly that +2-4 damage is being changed to +2 min damage and +2 max damage. So by that logic the gem on the PTR should be adding +150 min damage and +300 max damage. Of course, the actual logic is more convoluted than that. A bigger post that explains a lot is: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593743038

Of course now that I'm looking it doesn't appear to be limited to jewelery and there is some issues it seems with weapons, but its not clear if there's going to be a buff, nerf or no change when this bug is fixed.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:59 pm UTC

Hopefully they just get their damage formula sorted so it's applied correctly. If it's applied correctly based on the maths via the d3 rawr website, it outdamages the 100% crit gem and should outdamage the 110% crit gem for me at least. So I'll be picking one up.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:56 pm UTC

Even on the rawr site I lose 3k dps changing from the 100% Emerald to the Marquise Ruby (which is pretty close to my other spreadsheet too). My attack speed is only 1.8 though so maybe if that were higher the Marquise Ruby would end up being better. The new emerald adds about 3.5k dps but I don't think that's worth the ~60 million at the moment. For 60 million I can get better bang for my buck updating a new ring or even a new weapon (may need to if they nerf the black weapons).

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:13 pm UTC

Yeah, it's probably due to attack speed. I gain a good ~9500-10k dps over the 100% emerald. Another 10% CD would only be ~3500-4k dps, so that's a good ~6k gain over the 110% emerald too. My attack speed is in the 2.4-2.6 range though, depending on my setup.

Also, what makes you think they're going to nerf black damage weapons?

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Lostdreams » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:09 pm UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:
Diadem wrote:Is Jay Wilson really to blame for the poor support and pace of development so far in the game? It's a huge game, he does't make all the decisions alone, does he?


well he was the director

that was kind of his, you know, responsibility


Not only that but his influence on the rest of the team and the approach he had to design.

During his leadership there was a total lack of content outside of monster power and legendary item graphics (both of which are at best a 2 month patch). There were zero mechanical changes to any of the skills, despite people saying some of them were broken or just not useable in their current state (not due to damage/numbers imbalance). There was only poor number twerking I could have pulled out of my ass in 5 minutes. I mean, when "Double it!" is your fucking catch phrase you're a little short in the creativity department.

Not to mention the responses he had to almost every criticizm made about those shortcomings and, more importantly, his reactions to solutions people from the playerbase were giving him to make things better. Every playerbase has bitching and whining but when the helpful players show up and are treated like shit by a developer, you need to start reassessing things and it looks like Blizzard might have started doing that.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:41 pm UTC

Mishrak wrote:Yeah, it's probably due to attack speed. I gain a good ~9500-10k dps over the 100% emerald. Another 10% CD would only be ~3500-4k dps, so that's a good ~6k gain over the 110% emerald too. My attack speed is in the 2.4-2.6 range though, depending on my setup.

Also, what makes you think they're going to nerf black damage weapons?


So a weapon's damage range as calculated as:

Min base damage = weapon_min
Max base damage = weapon_min + weapon_delta

When you see + min damage on an item it is bonus_min. + max damage on an item is bonus_delta

Currently min damage is calculated as:

minDamage = weapon_min + bonus_min

Max damage is somewhat convoluted though:

if weapon_min + bonus_min > weapon_min + weapon_delta then:
maxDamage = weapon_min + bonus_min + bonus_delta + 1
else
maxDamage = weapon_min + weapon_delta + bonus_delta

Looking at this now its fairly counter-intuitive as to what is going on. It looks like the if statement is comparing if modified minDamage is greater than the base weapon max damage. If its not true, we just take the max base damage + bonus_delta to get our max damage. If it IS true, however, it appears we change max base damage to be equal to (modified min damage +1) and THEN add the bonus_delta on top of it.

The worry is that the if statement is wrong and the intent of it is to simply prevent the final max damage of the weapon from being higher than the min damage. People have speculated that the if statement should be

if (weapon_delta + bonus_delta) < bonus_min
maxDamage = weapon_min + bonus_min +1

But after writing it all out just now, this doesn't really make sense. You completely lose the effect of +max damage then making it a useless affix in some cases (notably when it is low compared to +min damage). The way blizzard has it now, although somewhat counter-intuitive, always ensure +max damage is fully utilized by your weapon, regardless of how big it is compared to the + min damage.

Lostdreams wrote:During his leadership there was a total lack of content outside of monster power and legendary item graphics (both of which are at best a 2 month patch). There were zero mechanical changes to any of the skills, despite people saying some of them were broken or just not useable in their current state (not due to damage/numbers imbalance). There was only poor number twerking I could have pulled out of my ass in 5 minutes


Weren't the uber bosses and Hellfire rings added before he left? And I know at least Storm armor for the Wizard was mechanically changed a patch or two ago, so I'd have to say your sweeping statements are just plain wrong. Now I do grant a lot of the skill changes were just number changes but in at least one case I've experienced that number change was all that was needed to fix the skill (hydra). HOTA too I believe just needed the number change to make it a completely viable skill to base a build around. As to content, I'm not sure why people are actually expecting more free content. I'm actually surprised as hell they added the Ubers to the game pre-expansion. Their official statement was there would NOT be regular content updates, its not an MMO.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:53 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:During his leadership there was a total lack of content outside of monster power and legendary item graphics (both of which are at best a 2 month patch). There were zero mechanical changes to any of the skills, despite people saying some of them were broken or just not useable in their current state (not due to damage/numbers imbalance). There was only poor number twerking I could have pulled out of my ass in 5 minutes


Weren't the uber bosses and Hellfire rings added before he left? And I know at least Storm armor for the Wizard was mechanically changed a patch or two ago, so I'd have to say your sweeping statements are just plain wrong. Now I do grant a lot of the skill changes were just number changes but in at least one case I've experienced that number change was all that was needed to fix the skill (hydra). HOTA too I believe just needed the number change to make it a completely viable skill to base a build around. As to content, I'm not sure why people are actually expecting more free content. I'm actually surprised as hell they added the Ubers to the game pre-expansion. Their official statement was there would NOT be regular content updates, its not an MMO.


Hellfire rings are on a lower level than the other legendaries, they dont even have models/particle effects/etc. because they're rings; they only have an icon. Uber bosses were already in game, they just took the amount of bosses in a room, along with their damage, and doubled it. Keywardens are recolors using existing models and they use existing spells. The only new content is the legendary items and only the models are new, spells and spell effects from those were in game already too.

I never said some of the skills didn't benefit from number twerking or that others weren't working properly altogether. That doesn't fix the ones that aren't.

It doesn't metter what their original statement regarding content was, there had to be content additions because they had no endgame content at all. The state of the game was such that leaving it as-is until the expansion would have left them with an even smaller playerbase than they are left with now and there would be few people left to buy the expansion.

As it is now, I plan to keep tabs on the game and wait until about a month or so after the expansion is released to pick it up again, if at all. I hope it recovers but at this point, even if they manage to get all the right ideas and all the right execution, it's still going to be 6 months or better before we see anything happen.
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TrlstanC wrote:But, I'm still curious, did no one else ever learn about creationism in science class at some point, at least those who went to public school?

Sorry, we just learned science.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:01 pm UTC

It's hilarious to me that the people who complain about the game being broken or sucking or needing x, y, or z, are the people who have been playing 4-6 hours a day since release.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Lostdreams » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:26 pm UTC

I played Diablo 1&2 that much for a long time. I was doing that initially with Diablo 3 until I completed nightmare and most of the poorly written story was already worn thin. By the time I got to inferno it was a chore to play but I held out hope because it was Blizzard and they fix shit like this when it goes awry. I didn't want to be at the back of the curve when things got better and spend forever trying to catch up before I could get to the goodies.

When the class changes patch was released I realized there wasn't going to be any changes for a while and started playing less and less. After Ubers and monster power was released I gave it the benefit of the doubt, logged on to try it, saw nothing new of value, and promptly quit.

For the almost 20 years of solid gaming they provided I gave it as much of a go as I could but I'm not coming back until I see something worth playing.
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:
TrlstanC wrote:But, I'm still curious, did no one else ever learn about creationism in science class at some point, at least those who went to public school?

Sorry, we just learned science.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:27 pm UTC

Lostdreams wrote:Hellfire rings are on a lower level than the other legendaries, they dont even have models/particle effects/etc. because they're rings; they only have an icon. Uber bosses were already in game, they just took the amount of bosses in a room, along with their damage, and doubled it. Keywardens are recolors using existing models and they use existing spells. The only new content is the legendary items and only the models are new, spells and spell effects from those were in game already too.


So none of that was new content because it used existing graphics and whatnot? That is absurd logic. They added a new thing to do. Kill keywardens -> get keys -> kill ubers get organs -> make rings. I don't understand how you can't consider this new content.

I never said some of the skills didn't benefit from number twerking or that others weren't working properly altogether. That doesn't fix the ones that aren't.


You said there were no mechanical changes at all to any skills. I refuted that since I KNOW storm armor was changed mechanically. You then said there was poor number twerking that was done. To which I commented on the fact that that "poor" number twerking actually made several skills (hydra, HOTA) perfectly viable to use, thus fixing them.

It doesn't metter what their original statement regarding content was, there had to be content additions because they had no endgame content at all. The state of the game was such that leaving it as-is until the expansion would have left them with an even smaller playerbase than they are left with now and there would be few people left to buy the expansion.


Endgame content in Diablo has always been grinding away for better and better gear. Perhaps its an expectations thing? Did people expect more than that? I remember doing boss run after boss run in D2 just to get some new Shako that might be a LITTLE bit better than my old Shako. Or grinding out the Countess for high runes I could trade for other high runes to make an Engima. In D3 its more or less the same. Grind out act 3 for decent drops that sell for gold I can use to buy better gear. I don't have to barter anymore which means I can actually slowly (very slowly) build my way up to that piece of gear instead of just waiting for a great drop and trading it for that piece of gear. At the high end its pretty much exactly the same as D2 since you NEED a good drop to afford a piece of high gear (the money you pick up is fairly negligible unless you're botting).

As to player base I'm very curious as to what the number actually is. Apparently in the 1.07 notes they said they're going to be showing the number of players online in the UI. I have to assume this means the number is actually pretty damn high otherwise it wouldn't be in their interests to actually announce this. We'll see when its released I guess.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:58 pm UTC

To be fair, a lot of people are upset that PvP has taken this long to implement given what it's turned out to be, especially since that's what a lot of the hardcore D2 crowd would consider an end game. I don't have a problem with it essentially being dueling, as that's what PvP in D2 was and I loved it, but it's frustrating to wait 8-9 months for something that they already had from day 1. The more frustrating thing is that all of my friends have stopped playing, so dueling is essentially pointless since the public game system is so terrible.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:43 pm UTC

Obby wrote:To be fair, a lot of people are upset that PvP has taken this long to implement given what it's turned out to be, especially since that's what a lot of the hardcore D2 crowd would consider an end game. I don't have a problem with it essentially being dueling, as that's what PvP in D2 was and I loved it, but it's frustrating to wait 8-9 months for something that they already had from day 1. The more frustrating thing is that all of my friends have stopped playing, so dueling is essentially pointless since the public game system is so terrible.


This is a reasonable complaint. It has taken far too long for PvP to come out. Now granted I hate PvP so it doesn't affect me, but I can certainly understand why people would be upset about the time its taking. Apparently its horribly imbalanced at the moment, but I wouldn't really expect anything else from Diablo PvP.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:00 pm UTC

I get the D3 complaints sometimes, others I do not. People often are not very objective about their rage threads. There are certainly lots of criticisms to be made and lots of design decisions I think were mistakes, but sometimes I just hear head scratchers.

The economy in D2 was horribly un-functional. Any similarity to the D2 economy would be a mistake. Currency over bartering is a GOOD thing. Increased variation in items is a GOOD thing. Having items sell for 10k gold and others for 2billion gold is a GOOD thing. The RMAH is not much of an addition in terms of economic forces. People already bought gold by the ton from outside resources. The RMAH brings it above board. The RMAH doesn't create currency, it just allows people to buy it from other players if they want. It doesn't ADD currency to the system, it doesn't inflate or deflate the price of items. It doesn't make the game "pay to win", it makes it "pay if you're lazy and want to win anyway so the rest of us don't have to pay monthly fees". People getting mad that they spent all day farming and have only a fraction of the gold necessary to buy the best items are not understanding the entire purpose of the game but worse, they are not understanding the underlying causes of that phenomenon. They are 1) variation in items and 2) the amount of playtime people put into killing monsters. You got lots and lots and lots of items in your "all day farming", they just mostly sucked. That's on purpose. Also, guys who farmed 10x more than you have seen considerably more drops and have generated considerably more valuable items on average.

Item variation leads to a continual gear upgrade system. A lack of variation leads to a tiered system of gear with set upgrade paths and a finite top. In a continual ugprade system, there is always somebody with better gear than you unless you generate the most gold in the game, not once, but on an ongoing basis day in and day out. In a tiered system, you go from A to B, taking a fairly deterministic time, and you will be at the top.

D3 has many flaws, but the economy is not one of them. I don't think many gamers understand how economies work (ingame or otherwise) and are frustrated with their lower standing in them not looking at the implications to what they are saying. Tiered gear is socialism. It is a fixed reward for a fixed action. Gear variation means noticeable difference between characters based largely on activity level and comprehension of the game mechanics. It is competitive.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Diadem » Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:10 pm UTC

Lack of PvP is a valid complaint. Lack of itemization and skill selection as well. In theory there are more skills than in D2, and being able to reset them at will is also a huge improvement. But there are quite a few useless skills, and a few overpowered ones. Most classes are pushed into one or two optimal builds, with very little variation. Same for items. Many slots have pretty much obligatory items, with very little variation.

What people often forget is that D2 was not better in this regard. For example as a Paladin in D2 you were either a hammerdin or clueless. And as for itemization. The only viable chest piece for most characters was an enigma. You either had one or couldn't afford one. So D3 doesn't compare unfavourably with D2 in this regard. I guess people have either forgotten what D2 was really like, or they hoped for improvements.

Same for the gameplay. People complain they only play A3 all the time. Well sure. But in D2 people just did endless mephisto or pindleskin runs. Or Baal for experience. And they teleported through all the trashmobs too. So even if only 4-5 zones in A3 are viable, that's still more than D2. Still though, would be nice if all zones were viable.

Though there's a few things that could easily be improved that would add a lot to the game. I want to auto-skip all cutscenes. I want to be able to go from act to act. I don't want to die every time I join a new game because it freezes for 20 seconds after meeting the first monsters.

So bottomline: Plenty of valid complaints, and some stuff that absolutely should have been added or fixed ages ago. But also a lot of unfair complaints.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:08 pm UTC

I agree with all of that Diadem. I didn't want to get into specific complaints. I think there are so many that are justified, Diablo 3 is really a very flawed game. All that said, the economy is the central focus of the game and is far and away superior to anything else done in a video game to date.

I tend to look at D3 and see more right than wrong. The ambitious parts of D3 really did come through and work great. The amazing part though is that so many seemingly easy things (or just straight up copy things from D2 if you had to) were complete failures.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:35 pm UTC

mosc wrote:All that said, the economy is the central focus of the game and is far and away superior to anything else done in a video game to date.

Waaaat? A ) The economy is certainly not the central focus of the game, and B ) you obviously haven't played... any other game with a viable economy?
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