1218: "Doors of Durin"

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1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby rhomboidal » Wed May 29, 2013 4:05 am UTC

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Title Text: If we get the doors open and plug up the dam on the Sirannon so the water rises a little, the pool will start draining into Moria. How do you think the Watcher would fare against a drenched Balrog?

I can kind of speak Elvish, but with a heavy Klingon accent.

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby thanksbastards » Wed May 29, 2013 4:19 am UTC

I know ppl were complaining about frame rates, but isn't slowing the sequal down this far a bit of an overreaction? :moray:

ah if only. And for the record, give me allllll the fps please.

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Wed May 29, 2013 4:32 am UTC

thanksbastards wrote:I know ppl were complaining about frame rates, but isn't slowing the sequal down this far a bit of an overreaction? :moray:

ah if only. And for the record, give me allllll the fps please.

The controversy was all "HURF DURF higher framerate makes things not blurry enough so it looks like shit" Give me a break.
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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby RogueCynic » Wed May 29, 2013 5:01 am UTC

I think I'd like to see The Watcher go up against a drenched Balrog. I know a pretty good recipe for Calamari. smacks lips
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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Coyne » Wed May 29, 2013 5:47 am UTC

...a drenched balrog?

*!...Don't you mean a steamed balrog?
In all fairness...

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Gauteamus » Wed May 29, 2013 7:31 am UTC

rhomboidal wrote:Title Text: If we get the doors open and plug up the dam on the Sirannon so the water rises a little, the pool will start draining into Moria. How do you think the Watcher would fare against a drenched Balrog?


Ahh, Dwarf Fortress, I have to start another fort now ...

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby RNK » Wed May 29, 2013 7:53 am UTC

I thought the way out of Moria was up, up, up from the entrance. Wouldn't it take an awful lot of water to finally flow down onto the Balrog?

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Wooloomooloo » Wed May 29, 2013 8:01 am UTC

Coyne wrote:
...a drenched balrog?

*!...Don't you mean a steamed balrog?

Yeah, that my reaction too. Now all we need is a Tuesday what-if, with accurate data plugged in for the Balrog's energy output and the presumed rate of flow into the Mines vs. the probable thermal conductivity of a steam-filled mountain. If we're lucky (and the passages have a suitably small bottleneck somewhere) we might get the whole mountain to explode. I have good information suggesting Mount St. Helens happened that way. The real question is do these guys know how to say in elvish "I swear, Sir, I found it that way...!" ?

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby side » Wed May 29, 2013 9:08 am UTC

Surely the password is in dwarvish, not elvish, as it's a dwarf city!

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Rombobjörn » Wed May 29, 2013 10:37 am UTC

Sorry, but the water would have to rise more than just a little. There's a staircase of 200 steps leading up from the doors, so it would require quite a dam.

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby EpicanicusStrikes » Wed May 29, 2013 10:43 am UTC

cjmcjmcjmcjm wrote:
thanksbastards wrote:I know ppl were complaining about frame rates, but isn't slowing the sequal down this far a bit of an overreaction? :moray:

ah if only. And for the record, give me allllll the fps please.

The controversy was all "HURF DURF higher framerate makes things not blurry enough so it looks like shit" Give me a break.

Please spend a good 100 years perfecting film imagery to match human biology, and then provide detailed technical specs of how digital processing is used to overcome this limitation before either hurfing, durfing or requesting breaks.

Film speed is not choosen by pulling numbers out of hats, asses or thin air.

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby markfiend » Wed May 29, 2013 12:00 pm UTC

side wrote:Surely the password is in dwarvish, not elvish, as it's a dwarf city!

It's the gate out onto the Elvish land of Hollin. The "speak friend and enter" bit is in Elvish (technically Sindarin) too. (pedo mellon a minno IIRC)
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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby eran_rathan » Wed May 29, 2013 12:04 pm UTC

side wrote:Surely the password is in dwarvish, not elvish, as it's a dwarf city!


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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Patrik3 » Wed May 29, 2013 12:11 pm UTC

I loved the LOTR films but I'm not so familiar with the intricate lore, so maybe I'm the only one who thinks it a little weird that the Elf word for 'friend' is Melon? There must be so many puns in the Elfish/Human bilinguals of their society (assuming that melons exist at all in Middle Earth).

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Essah » Wed May 29, 2013 12:13 pm UTC

Patrik3 wrote:I loved the LOTR films but I'm not so familiar with the intricate lore, so maybe I'm the only one who thinks it a little weird that the Elf word for 'friend' is Melon? There must be so many puns in the Elfish/Human bilinguals of their society (assuming that melons exist at all in Middle Earth).


It's mellon and pronounced more like: "mellllon"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvPWJjiDwdI

but yeah I guess you could still make jokes out of it

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby markfiend » Wed May 29, 2013 12:19 pm UTC

Patrik3 wrote:I loved the LOTR films but I'm not so familiar with the intricate lore, so maybe I'm the only one who thinks it a little weird that the Elf word for 'friend' is Melon? There must be so many puns in the Elfish/Human bilinguals of their society (assuming that melons exist at all in Middle Earth).

In-universe, the characters aren't speaking English, it's "Westron" translated (for our benefit by the good Professor Tolkien) into English.

Out-universe, Tolkien created the Elvish languages and deliberately included puns between them and English. Possibly the most famous is the tale of the drowning of Númenor, called in Quenya Atalantë. <sarcasm>The name is obviously unrelated to its sound-similarity to Atlantis; it has a perfectly good Quenya translation (the Downfallen). </sarcasm>
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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Xenomortis » Wed May 29, 2013 2:14 pm UTC

EpicanicusStrikes wrote:Film speed is not choosen by pulling numbers out of hats, asses or thin air.

No, but 24fps has little to do with human biology, other than "it's probably as low as we can get away with".
(There are, historical, technical reasons for the prevalence of 24p however.)
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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby dp2 » Wed May 29, 2013 2:16 pm UTC

markfiend wrote:In-universe, the characters aren't speaking English, it's "Westron" translated (for our benefit by the good Professor Tolkien) into English.

I thought they were speaking Rigelian.

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby davidhbrown » Wed May 29, 2013 2:37 pm UTC

Rombobjörn wrote:Sorry, but the water would have to rise more than just a little. There's a staircase of 200 steps leading up from the doors, so it would require quite a dam.

Certainly that was the only way for something hobbit-sized or larger to travel, but it's not inconceivable that there could be little cracks and fissures that water flow through.

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby BAReFOOt » Wed May 29, 2013 3:16 pm UTC

Can somebody explain this comic? What are those doors? What does saying “frenemy” do to them? Why is it funny?

No I don’t even plan on watching The Hobbit. Fantasy is to sci-fi what astrology is to astronomy and what religion is to science. Stupid fantasy is stupid. And made for stupid people. (And no, setting it in a futuristic setting doesn’t make it sci-fi. Star Wars and Dune are fantasy too. Not sci-fi.)

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby RogueCynic » Wed May 29, 2013 3:30 pm UTC

Rombobjörn wrote:Sorry, but the water would have to rise more than just a little. There's a staircase of 200 steps leading up from the doors, so it would require quite a dam.
You must remember these are dwarf stairs. They are probably half the size of human stairs.
markfiend wrote:
Patrik3 wrote:I loved the LOTR films but I'm not so familiar with the intricate lore, so maybe I'm the only one who thinks it a little weird that the Elf word for 'friend' is Melon? There must be so many puns in the Elfish/Human bilinguals of their society (assuming that melons exist at all in Middle Earth).

In-universe, the characters aren't speaking English, it's "Westron" translated (for our benefit by the good Professor Tolkien) into English.

Out-universe, Tolkien created the Elvish languages and deliberately included puns between them and English. Possibly the most famous is the tale of the drowning of Númenor, called in Quenya Atalantë. <sarcasm>The name is obviously unrelated to its sound-similarity to Atlantis; it has a perfectly good Quenya translation (the Downfallen). </sarcasm>
Another thing to remember is that a word in one language can mean something different in another. Take the word "Belgium". Here it is the name of a country, but in other parts of the universe, it is quite offensive. Also, the Spanish word for "pregnant" and the Portuguese word is different. One of the variations means "crazy" in the other language. Also, look up "gin and tonic".
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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby WriteBrainedJR » Wed May 29, 2013 3:33 pm UTC

rhomboidal wrote:How do you think the Watcher would fare against a drenched Balrog?

Since one of them is a Maiar who's free to use his power because he's not holding back and pretending to be some sort of human wizard, and the other is essentially a colossal squid, I'm thinking it would be less of a fight and more of a feast. A really, really gruesome feast. I mean, if the hypothetical situation were a cave troll vs. Gandalf after he'd just gotten out of the shower, would you even bother to ask?
Last edited by WriteBrainedJR on Wed May 29, 2013 3:40 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby markfiend » Wed May 29, 2013 3:37 pm UTC

BAReFOOt wrote:Can somebody explain this comic? What are those doors? What does saying “frenemy” do to them? Why is it funny?

No I don’t even plan on watching The Hobbit. Fantasy is to sci-fi what astrology is to astronomy and what religion is to science. Stupid fantasy is stupid. And made for stupid people. (And no, setting it in a futuristic setting doesn’t make it sci-fi. Star Wars and Dune are fantasy too. Not sci-fi.)

Given your second paragraph (with which I disagree, apart from the parenthetical comment) there seems little point in trying to explain.

RogueCynic wrote: Also, look up "gin and tonic".
Ah yes. I do enjoy my djinnan tonnix.
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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Роберт » Wed May 29, 2013 4:01 pm UTC

BAReFOOt wrote:Can somebody explain this comic? What are those doors? What does saying “frenemy” do to them? Why is it funny?

No I don’t even plan on watching The Hobbit. Fantasy is to sci-fi what astrology is to astronomy and what religion is to science. Stupid fantasy is stupid. And made for stupid people. (And no, setting it in a futuristic setting doesn’t make it sci-fi. Star Wars and Dune are fantasy too. Not sci-fi.)

Star Wars isn't futuristic, and that's not even the stupidest thing in your stupid post. Made for stupid people.
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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Klear » Wed May 29, 2013 4:02 pm UTC

RogueCynic wrote:
Rombobjörn wrote:Sorry, but the water would have to rise more than just a little. There's a staircase of 200 steps leading up from the doors, so it would require quite a dam.
You must remember these are dwarf stairs. They are probably half the size of human stairs.
markfiend wrote:
Patrik3 wrote:I loved the LOTR films but I'm not so familiar with the intricate lore, so maybe I'm the only one who thinks it a little weird that the Elf word for 'friend' is Melon? There must be so many puns in the Elfish/Human bilinguals of their society (assuming that melons exist at all in Middle Earth).

In-universe, the characters aren't speaking English, it's "Westron" translated (for our benefit by the good Professor Tolkien) into English.

Out-universe, Tolkien created the Elvish languages and deliberately included puns between them and English. Possibly the most famous is the tale of the drowning of Númenor, called in Quenya Atalantë. <sarcasm>The name is obviously unrelated to its sound-similarity to Atlantis; it has a perfectly good Quenya translation (the Downfallen). </sarcasm>
Another thing to remember is that a word in one language can mean something different in another. Take the word "Belgium". Here it is the name of a country, but in other parts of the universe, it is quite offensive. Also, the Spanish word for "pregnant" and the Portuguese word is different. One of the variations means "crazy" in the other language. Also, look up "gin and tonic".


Not just other parts of the universe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zHtUrtp9LpA#t=48s

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby RogueCynic » Wed May 29, 2013 4:05 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
BAReFOOt wrote:Can somebody explain this comic? What are those doors? What does saying “frenemy” do to them? Why is it funny?

No I don’t even plan on watching The Hobbit. Fantasy is to sci-fi what astrology is to astronomy and what religion is to science. Stupid fantasy is stupid. And made for stupid people. (And no, setting it in a futuristic setting doesn’t make it sci-fi. Star Wars and Dune are fantasy too. Not sci-fi.)

Star Wars isn't futuristic, and that's not even the stupidest thing in your stupid post. Made for stupid people.
Star Wars is not futuristic. The first three words of the movie are "A long time ago". And that movie came out "A long time ago".
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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby RogueCynic » Wed May 29, 2013 4:09 pm UTC

Klear wrote:
RogueCynic wrote:
Rombobjörn wrote:Sorry, but the water would have to rise more than just a little. There's a staircase of 200 steps leading up from the doors, so it would require quite a dam.
You must remember these are dwarf stairs. They are probably half the size of human stairs.
markfiend wrote:
Patrik3 wrote:I loved the LOTR films but I'm not so familiar with the intricate lore, so maybe I'm the only one who thinks it a little weird that the Elf word for 'friend' is Melon? There must be so many puns in the Elfish/Human bilinguals of their society (assuming that melons exist at all in Middle Earth).

In-universe, the characters aren't speaking English, it's "Westron" translated (for our benefit by the good Professor Tolkien) into English.

Out-universe, Tolkien created the Elvish languages and deliberately included puns between them and English. Possibly the most famous is the tale of the drowning of Númenor, called in Quenya Atalantë. <sarcasm>The name is obviously unrelated to its sound-similarity to Atlantis; it has a perfectly good Quenya translation (the Downfallen). </sarcasm>
Another thing to remember is that a word in one language can mean something different in another. Take the word "Belgium". Here it is the name of a country, but in other parts of the universe, it is quite offensive. Also, the Spanish word for "pregnant" and the Portuguese word is different. One of the variations means "crazy" in the other language. Also, look up "gin and tonic".


Not just other parts of the universe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zHtUrtp9LpA#t=48s
Maybe that's where the joke came from.
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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed May 29, 2013 4:14 pm UTC

BAReFOOt wrote:Can somebody explain this comic? What are those doors? What does saying “frenemy” do to them? Why is it funny?

No I don’t even plan on watching The Hobbit. Fantasy is to sci-fi what astrology is to astronomy and what religion is to science. Stupid fantasy is stupid. And made for stupid people. (And no, setting it in a futuristic setting doesn’t make it sci-fi. Star Wars and Dune are fantasy too. Not sci-fi.)


Star Wars, I'll grant you; Dune (the book) I'll argue.

In the second book of Lord of the Rings (the second half of Fellowship of the Ring), the Fellowship is driven to seek refuge in the Dwarrowdelf, the ancient dwarvish city of Khazad-Dum, known in latter days as Moria. On the doors are scribed in elven runes "The Doors of Durin, Lord of Moria. Speak, friend and enter." also translated as "Say 'friend' and enter". In the book, Gandalf takes some time to realise that the latter translation is the intended meaning and say the magic word; in the movie, Frodo has a moment of inspiration and solves the "riddle".

Morgoth is the Sindarin name for the Great Enemy (the guy Sauron was a sidekick of), so Mellogoth is an attempted portmanteau of Mellon and Morgoth.

Part of the joke is that, having found the password to gain entry, rather than pressing on with their journey, they start looking for other keywords - typical geek behaviour.

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Gadfly » Wed May 29, 2013 4:16 pm UTC

side wrote:Surely the password is in dwarvish, not elvish, as it's a dwarf city!


Celebrimor of Hollin, an Elf, is actually the one who made the writing on the door. In those days, the friendship between elves and dwarves had not yet begun to wane. (Fellowship, "The Ring Goes South.")


BaReFOOt wrote:No I don’t even plan on watching The Hobbit. Fantasy is to sci-fi what astrology is to astronomy and what religion is to science. Stupid fantasy is stupid. And made for stupid people. (And no, setting it in a futuristic setting doesn’t make it sci-fi. Star Wars and Dune are fantasy too. Not sci-fi.)


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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Wnderer » Wed May 29, 2013 4:33 pm UTC

Essah wrote:
Patrik3 wrote:I loved the LOTR films but I'm not so familiar with the intricate lore, so maybe I'm the only one who thinks it a little weird that the Elf word for 'friend' is Melon? There must be so many puns in the Elfish/Human bilinguals of their society (assuming that melons exist at all in Middle Earth).


It's mellon and pronounced more like: "mellllon"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvPWJjiDwdI

but yeah I guess you could still make jokes out of it


What does Carnegie mean in Elven?

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby adavies42 » Wed May 29, 2013 4:51 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Morgoth is the Sindarin name for the Great Enemy (the guy Sauron was a sidekick of), so Mellogoth is an attempted portmanteau of Mellon and Morgoth.


"Mor" is the root for "black" (cf. "Mordor" and "Morgul"); the other half, "enmity", is apparently "koth" in its basic form.1 (I think I vaguely remember the Elvish languages having consonant shifts like k->g under some circumstances.)

So while I can't really vouch for the etymologic accuracy of "mellogoth", but it seems at least plausible as a compound meaning "friend-enemy". I don't remember if the Elvish languages are big on dvandvas....

(Should I be worried that only part of that I had to look up was the exact meaning of "-goth"?)

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Carlomagno » Wed May 29, 2013 5:06 pm UTC

BAReFOOt wrote:Can somebody explain this comic? What are those doors? What does saying “frenemy” do to them? Why is it funny?

No I don’t even plan on watching The Hobbit. Fantasy is to sci-fi what astrology is to astronomy and what religion is to science. Stupid fantasy is stupid. And made for stupid people. (And no, setting it in a futuristic setting doesn’t make it sci-fi. Star Wars and Dune are fantasy too. Not sci-fi.)


I think you should try taking a class on film or modern literature at a nearby university. I think you are missing key points of what entertainment is supposed to be. Also, there isn't any sci-fi that isn't also fantasy. It's just about how much imagination is put into the film. Even for what you would consider to be sci-fi and not fantasy, that is a nonzero amount of imagination.

I'm getting a lot of hostility and anger out of your post. I don't see much point in explaining this joke to you, as you would probably just respond with more anger and hostility. As for your statement that fantasy is "made for stupid people," I'd simply ask you to avoid discussions wherein people might be discussing fantasy. With that one nasty remark, you've insulted everyone in this thread and possibly also the comic author himself. Did you intend to sound superior to those who enjoy The Lord of the Rings? Why would you do that in a community like this, that values geekdom of all flavors? Did you intend to push an agenda whereby all non-science related topics are shunned? Why would you force such a bland and dry world on others?

From me personally, I would recommend that you reconsider those things you are so inherently hostile toward. Perhaps you could take an anger management class. Let me be clear: I just finished one such class. It hasn't changed who I am, but it has made me reconsider things I wouldn't have before.

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Klear » Wed May 29, 2013 5:20 pm UTC

RogueCynic wrote:
Роберт wrote:
BAReFOOt wrote:Can somebody explain this comic? What are those doors? What does saying “frenemy” do to them? Why is it funny?

No I don’t even plan on watching The Hobbit. Fantasy is to sci-fi what astrology is to astronomy and what religion is to science. Stupid fantasy is stupid. And made for stupid people. (And no, setting it in a futuristic setting doesn’t make it sci-fi. Star Wars and Dune are fantasy too. Not sci-fi.)

Star Wars isn't futuristic, and that's not even the stupidest thing in your stupid post. Made for stupid people.
Star Wars is not futuristic. The first three words of the movie are "A long time ago". And that movie came out "A long time ago".


The fact that it's set "a long time ago" doesn't mean it's not futuristic. It works the other way around too - the fact that a movie/book/story is not futuristic doesn't mean that it is not sci-fi.

That said, Star Wars is a fantasy story in a sci-fi setting.

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby dp2 » Wed May 29, 2013 5:40 pm UTC

BAReFOOt wrote: Stupid fantasy is stupid.

And obvious troll is obvious.

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby AlexTheSeal » Wed May 29, 2013 6:45 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
BAReFOOt wrote: Star Wars and Dune are fantasy too. Not sci-fi.


Star Wars, I'll grant you; Dune (the book) I'll argue.


Agreed. I think part of the reason for Dune's appeal is that it is an unusual mixture of hard SF with space opera elements. Frank Herbert was educated in biology and took pains to make the ecology of the planet Arrakis seem internally consistent and plausible. Yet this realism is a backdrop for an engaging plot full of Joseph-Campbell-style archetypes--the fate of the galaxy hangs in the balance as prophecies are fulfilled in unexpected ways, alliances are forged and broken through politics and love, and characters fall from grace only to be redeemed at the last moment.

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40 GOTO 10

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby cream wobbly » Wed May 29, 2013 8:03 pm UTC

Mellogoth is how an English speaker might conjure a portmanteau of mellon and the kot- component of Morgoth. Firstly, the agental suffix -on would not be absorbed into a neologism, but would be pushed to the end: it's a suffix. Second, there are two clearly documented roots here: MEL and KOT (pp. 372 and 365 respectively in my copy of Lost Road). These would combine in Sindarin as melgoth-, (the -k- turning to -g- because it follows -l-, just as in Morgoth the -k- harmonizes with -r-). Adding the agental suffix back produces *melgothon.

There. I made an etymologically correct neologism for "frenemy" in an artificial language.

In fact, mellogoth would be more likely derived from MEL plus LOK plus OS, which would mean something like "friendly dragon neighbourhood". (And you're welcome to use this as your passphrase now that "correct horse battery staple" is being used by everyone.)

Still, I bet this didn't annoy me as much as it would Randall to be told 1 is a prime and he's just being silly.

[Edit: Crap. I just realized the suffix probably nullifies the aspiration: *melgotton.]

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby orthogon » Wed May 29, 2013 10:07 pm UTC

Xenomortis wrote:
EpicanicusStrikes wrote:Film speed is not choosen by pulling numbers out of hats, asses or thin air.

No, but 24fps has little to do with human biology, other than "it's probably as low as we can get away with".
(There are, historical, technical reasons for the prevalence of 24p however.)

But it was "probably as low as [they could] get away with" as a result of human biology. Flies would presumably be underwhelmed by the motion portrayal in The Hobbit.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby Xenomortis » Wed May 29, 2013 10:39 pm UTC

Yes, but that's missing the point.
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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby dtilque » Thu May 30, 2013 1:54 am UTC

What would the door have done if they'd said "O M G BFF LOL" in Sindarin?
Last edited by dtilque on Thu May 30, 2013 7:44 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1218: "Doors of Durin"

Postby ps.02 » Thu May 30, 2013 2:53 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
BAReFOOt wrote:(And no, setting it in a futuristic setting doesn’t make it sci-fi. Star Wars and Dune are fantasy too. Not sci-fi.)


Star Wars, I'll grant you; Dune (the book) I'll argue.
Nah, he's right. Dune is fantasy. Maybe you just mean it isn't secondary world fantasy? Sure. But it is chock full of magic, even if Herbert didn't call it that. Guild navigation, cellular memories (the many Duncan Idahos), ancestral memories and telepathis memory transfer (Reverend Mothers), Leto II's transformation ... none of this is even a tiny bit scientifically plausible, nor does Herbert make any effort to explain it except "because Spice".

Now whether it makes sense for a SF fan to sneer at fantasy is a separate question.
AlexTheSeal wrote:Frank Herbert was educated in biology and took pains to make the ecology of the planet Arrakis seem internally consistent and plausible.
I guess you are saying ecological realism is characteristic of hard SF, but not of fantasy? I have to wonder what fantasy books you're thinking of. The ones I can think of at least aim for internally consistent world-building, including ecology.


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