1190: "Time"

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Pikrass » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:00 pm UTC

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby foilman » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:00 pm UTC

That was a very sudden disappearance of the stars.

Edit: ok they are there, just very faint.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Wildhound » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:06 pm UTC

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby k.bookbinder » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:35 pm UTC

Are we experiencing some kind of Time dilation? Did Time slow down on Cueball's watch, but then return to "normal" rate on Megan's? Or can we assume that Cueball stayed up much later than we have calculated? I was under the impression that astro-analysis of the stars was fairly certain regarding the passage of time in Time, as indicated by their relative movements.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby VoronX » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:35 pm UTC

Greetings from NP 956!
Kieryn wrote:
Spoiler:
eta oin shrdlu wrote:
MattTheTubaGuy wrote:Just a random thought, if Randall drew the star super accurate, then I am thinking this may be some time in the future.
My reasoning: where the hell is Antares?!
Image
Eta Scorpii is another star that seems to have disappeared.
also, several other stars seem to be placed in slightly different places.
I had the same thought. With Stellarium I get a better match to the shapes (in particular, looking at the shape of Corona Australis and the angle between the bow stars Kaus Borealis/Media/Australis) at about 20000 +- 5000 AD. I'm going to try a better fit later.

I think you are right. The current exact position of Venus and us seeing no moon yet I think has now totally ruled out 2013. I also notice many of the stars are in not-quite-right positions. I think it's safe to say that this is likely to be thousands of years distant from the present. Not sure about past or future - I don't know where stars are heading. Oh Custard!

So what was with the mustard sparkle then??? Why correct something if it is intended to be nowhere near the present???

Randall is totally messing with us and I love it.

EDIT: I am scrolling through the years like crazy... the moon path never crosses Antares


I wouldn't say never, unless you mean on Nov 7th specifically. This is highly relevant. The moon crosses Antares' path regularly, just in cycles. Given occultations near that date within the 100 yr period described, I'm sure there's a Nov 7th occultation sometime. Though at Sunset? And regardless, where's the limb of the moon? That would be hard to miss.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby taixzo » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:41 pm UTC

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@BlitzGirl - Temporal Knighthood
@edfel - terraforming
@higgs-boson - satellites
@Rule110 - "paw-mangled banner"
@Ashaman - satellites again


Spoiler:
BlitzGirl wrote:I'm leaning toward 11,000. Just to be safe.
Oh, and I think the night sky is a bit lighter. The gradient shifted on my browser between newpix.

taixzo wrote:
BlitzGirl wrote:"They" must be the nightchirpies we can't see. Image

jjjdavidson wrote:
Latent22 wrote:
ZoomanSP wrote:P.S.: This reminds me that I always wanted to become a Knight Temporal. Who do I have to bribe ask for an appointment these dix?

I think you can only get appointed to be a Knight Temporal by your future self who already is a Knight Temporal. Thus proving your worthiness and skillful use of Time.

Well, c─p. I've been meaning to ask BlitzGirl if, as the first Knight Temporal, she'd consider knighting me, if she thinks a lowly clerk is worthy of such an honor. Now what?

Oh, missed this the first time round (distracted by mome-doings). The custom of self-knighting is actually outdated, a relic from the pix before my blitz ended. The practice was ceased because of worries it could be exploited. I'm pretty sure the current custom is that any Knight Temporal can knight others, though nobody has actually asked to be knighted on a newpage since the mid-500s. I was the one to knight mathrec and Angelastic, and I think that StratPlayer did a knighting for someone at one point, too.

So, if any of y'all want to be Knights Temporal, just let me or one of the other Knights know. :)

Oh! Could I be Knighted?

Certainly!

I, BlitzGirl, Knight Temporal of the One True Comic, bestow upon thee, taixzo, BlitzGirl the Next and Fast, the Knighthood Temporal, in recognition of awefulsome prognostication, speedy yet accurate blitzing, and promotion of flameless OTTery. Arise, and continue Waiting for it!


Hooray! *dons knight suit and Waits*

edfel wrote:
LoonieSpace wrote:Hi xkcd Timers. Been following most of the discussion here and especially like the astronomical / astrophysical analysis. But curious if anyone ever ruled out the possibility that cuegan are on a distant-future terraformed Mars or Venus. Curious if the axis of rotation and other observations could fit.


Hi! Good question.
- Mercury: if it was ever possible to terraform Mercury, the tilt would be too small (1/2 degree)
- Venus: rotates backwards, so no (unless it has been terraformed and accelerated with the same rotation axis as Earth).
- Moon: a moon night lasts 14 days (let's assume that we have a few hours per newpix). They wouldn't see the earth from the hidden face of the moon. They also need to find a way to make an atmosphere stay on it. I like this option :)
- Mars: Axial tilt=25.19°. Check. Sideral rotation period=24.6h. Check. Terraformable=maybe. Check. Stars positions: can't see the difference with Earth. Check. Planets positions: there must be a night in 2000 years where two planets are in what we assume to be Venus and Jupiter positions. Check. No artificial satellite (or very few). Check. Sea, baobab, squirpies, etc. That's a loooot of work, which would take a looooong time. 10,000 years? Maybe. My favorite "non-earth" option
- An asteroid: hmmm, I know nothing of asteroids, except that it'd be far too hard to make an atmosphere stay on most of them
- Any other moon in the solar system (Europa, Titan,...) Er... not an expert either. Titan has a nice climate when you like ice creams...
- Any other planet out of the Solar system (like the ones discovered near alpha centuri)? Hmm, I'll need to check how much the star positions change... but I feel it should have been noticed (and, alpha century is a several-stars system, we already talked about it, I'm not sure if it's possible or not).


Two things here - if they are on the Moon, then that would mean that the six-minute newpix were actually 84 minutes. If so, those were awfully slow conversations between Megan and Cueball (they lasted for at least five hours!) Mars seems like a good option, except for the baobabs. Mars is further away from the Sun than Earth is; while possible to terraform, it's unlikely that the temperature could be warm enough to support baobabs.

higgs-boson wrote:
edfel wrote:- Mars: Axial tilt=25.19°. Check. Sideral rotation period=24.6h. Check. Terraformable=maybe. Check. Stars positions: can't see the difference with Earth. Check. Planets positions: there must be a night in 2000 years where two planets are in what we assume to be Venus and Jupiter positions. Check. No artificial satellite (or very few). Check. Sea, baobab, squirpies, etc. That's a loooot of work, which would take a looooong time. 10,000 years? Maybe. My favorite "non-earth" option


(emphasis added)
Noting this, I've to question the whole 13000-proof-chain, for it shows at least some circumstancial counter-evidence: In a world thirteen thousand years into the future, I would expect a crazy lot of artificial satellites in the sky. We'd have to develop some theories for not having crowded the sky with satellitesNSA, therefore putting some stress on Occam's razor.

NSAThe currently emerging efforts for complete monitoring are not neccessarily taken into account.


Actually, satellites in low Earth orbit do experience atmospheric drag even in orbit; without periodic boosts from station-keeping engines, they will eventually fall back to Earth. (This is what happened to Skylab, for example.) Theoretically however there should be no drag by the time you get to geostationary orbit (because the air molecules would be going as fast as the satellite), so geostationary comsats would still be there (although, 10,000 years is probably long enough for the Moon to perturb them out of perfect geostationary orbits.)

Rule110 wrote:
ucim wrote:Anybody notice the beesnake constellation in
Image
?
It probably has a real name, but to me it's a giant beesnake. I wonder if an even gianter stellarraptor is coming up behind it. Of course, with the sun on the way, we'll probably never see it coming.

I believe pretty much everything to the right of Cuegan is Pegasus, and everything to their left is Andromeda.

Back from coma, and say -- I can see, by the dawn's early light, what so roundly was veiled at the twilight's last gleaming, whose round heads and stick bods, through the perlious night, in the comic we watched, took turns valiantly dreaming. And the meteor's glare, molpies CHIRPing in air, gave proof through the night that we still don't know where. Oh, say -- does that paw-mangled banner still wrap 'round the leg of the girl who's expanding the map?


I read almost to the end of this, and didn't realize it was a filk until I reached "paw-mangled banner". Great work! :D

Ashaman wrote:
higgs-boson wrote:Noting this, I've to question the whole 13000-proof-chain, for it shows at least some circumstancial counter-evidence: In a world thirteen thousand years into the future, I would expect a crazy lot of artificial satellites in the sky. We'd have to develop some theories for not having crowded the sky with satellitesNSA, therefore putting some stress on Occam's razor.


Actually, the theory is well known, and Occam's razor is unstressed. All the satellites you can see moving in the sky are in low earth orbit (the ones way up in geosynchronous orbit are too dim and slow to see with the naked eye). And in low earth orbit, you aren't really in a vacuum, it's just an extremely thin atmosphere. There is still drag going on. This is why they keep having to boost the ISS into higher orbits periodically, atmospheric drag slows it down and brings it low. So over 10,000 years, without periodic maintenance or replacement, we can expect all the satellites currently in low earth orbit to have fallen to earth.


Erm, I guess I was ninja'd. But my explanation isn't exactly the same, so I'm leaving it.


Edited to fix spoiler.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby moody7277 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:43 pm UTC

Latent22 wrote:verb (used with object)
1.
to have sexual intercourse with a bird


No bird chirping allowed!

[/obscure sf reference]

So it looks like night lasted exactly 100 np (a suspiciously round number), which would make it 8 hrs 20 min in comic time. That sound about right, cause people, me included, were figuring longer?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Wildhound » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:55 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:<snip>

So it looks like night lasted exactly 100 np (a suspiciously round number), which would make it 8 hrs 20 min in comic time. That sound about right, cause people, me included, were figuring longer?


To be honest I think this is just further evidence that time and location have no meaning, or at least don't map properly, between the inside and outside of the OTC. Night is about 7 hours long where I am at this time of year. Of course I am at a higher latitude than the inside appears to be and it's a different time of year. Everything appears to be designed not to make sense in outside terms and I think it was very cleverly done by GLR. He kept us guessing, but gave no answers.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Marsh'n » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:08 pm UTC

taixzo wrote:@BlitzGirl - Temporal Knighthood


In honor of your Knighthat... isn't it a Knighthat around here and not a Knighthood?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby ttscp » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:09 pm UTC

The night chirps seem to be the first time we've had a direct "payoff" where something talked about in the OTC actually happens later on. From the Wiki (frames 1830-1832):

1830.1 Megan I heard chirps from the night sky once.
1831.1 Megan I was looking at the stars one night and I heard peeping. It was very quiet. Just a single chirp now and then.
1831.2 Cueball Did you see anything?
1832.1 Megan I thought I saw a few stars flicker. Nothing else.

There have been other foreshadowing events (you can read the raptor attack on the flutterbeesnake as foreshadowing the meowlpy attack on Cuegan) but this is direct confirmation.

Not sure where to go with this, does this mean we'll understand Cueball's dream? Will La Petite finally emerge from the fade?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mscha » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:10 pm UTC

JONGLY...
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-- posted by newpixbot
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Febrion » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:15 pm UTC

Returning after a long absence, see I've missed about 200 NewPages and quite a lot of action. Looking forward to waiting with y'all once again, I haven't gone a day without wondering what I've been missing here, and seeing it all finally just makes more more eager than ever to keep up again...
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:15 pm UTC

Prediction:
Megan is going to teabag Queball to wake him up, revealing in the process that there are some misconceptions about the sex of our characters. Queball is going to bite them off and suffocate in them. Megan is going to bleed to death from the wound. Thus ends Time
Edit: Dang, I made a prediction that didn't include the end of Time. That needed a fix!
Last edited by Neil_Boekend on Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:19 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mscha » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:16 pm UTC

k.bookbinder wrote:Are we experiencing some kind of Time dilation? Did Time slow down on Cueball's watch, but then return to "normal" rate on Megan's? Or can we assume that Cueball stayed up much later than we have calculated? I was under the impression that astro-analysis of the stars was fairly certain regarding the passage of time in Time, as indicated by their relative movements.

102 frames (excluding meteor) since sunset. I think the latest estimate was 6½ minutes per frame. That's 663 frames, or about 11 hours. That seems about right for early spring.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby edo » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:17 pm UTC

Wildhound wrote:
moody7277 wrote:<snip>

So it looks like night lasted exactly 100 np (a suspiciously round number), which would make it 8 hrs 20 min in comic time. That sound about right, cause people, me included, were figuring longer?


To be honest I think this is just further evidence that time and location have no meaning, or at least don't map properly, between the inside and outside of the OTC. Night is about 7 hours long where I am at this time of year. Of course I am at a higher latitude than the inside appears to be and it's a different time of year. Everything appears to be designed not to make sense in outside terms and I think it was very cleverly done by GLR. He kept us guessing, but gave no answers.


5 min/newpix is a very lowball estimate. Since calculated estimates are in the 6 minute plus range, the night lasted between 10 hours and 11 hours 40 minutes. (I haven't had Time to recalibrate much on the stitched images, but it is possible to get a much better estimate)
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Marsh'n » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:18 pm UTC

newpixbot wrote:JONGLY...
Spoiler:
Image


Hi newpixbot! Seems quite here this Time-sunrise-time (non-heretical, now?), but at least it gives you a chance to chONG in.
And I forgot to thank Rule110 for "paw-mangled banner" subtly thrown in there. (Not to quibble, because I didn't notice this until I wrote it here, but isn't it a paw-mangled leg, or a leg-mangled banner? Admittedly I'd rather that the banner was mangled and Meg's legs were OK, but technically... (OK, maybe I just wanted to talk about Meg's legs...))

Edit for blitzers!
OK, retro-apologies to Rule110. I just realize that if "mangled" is a transitive binary relation, then if mangled(paw,leg) and mangled(leg,banner) then mangled(paw,banner). Woot!
Last edited by Marsh'n on Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:44 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby edfel » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:21 pm UTC

Wildhound wrote:
moody7277 wrote:<snip>

So it looks like night lasted exactly 100 np (a suspiciously round number), which would make it 8 hrs 20 min in comic time. That sound about right, cause people, me included, were figuring longer?


To be honest I think this is just further evidence that time and location have no meaning, or at least don't map properly, between the inside and outside of the OTC. Night is about 7 hours long where I am at this time of year. Of course I am at a higher latitude than the inside appears to be and it's a different time of year. Everything appears to be designed not to make sense in outside terms and I think it was very cleverly done by GLR. He kept us guessing, but gave no answers.


Okay, first of all, GLR might be messing up with us (I mean, he definitely is), but I'm pretty sure He has a very well set idea of where and when this story happens. All the clues, stars, animals, baobabs, sand, etc. have been selected minutely to 1) fit to the best of His knowledge, 2) not give away anything too obvious and 3) make us refute eventually any "easy" theory. And the "best of His knowledge" regarding star movements is NOT something to be underestimated. That's why I consider the stars to be a clue we cannot overlook.

Also the duration of night is hard to estimate, simply because we don't see the sun rising. Has the sun just appeared over the horizon? Has it completely gone over it? etc.

And, it is possible that we don't have the right night within the "12000-14000" period. Maybe 235 years and a couple of weeks later, the planets will be in the same positions, with the sun just a tiny bit higher making the night shorter. The night duration can be estimated independently of the date, given the distance between the sun and the celestial equator. However, and even though we do have a good estimation of the angle of the equator, we only have a rough estimation of it's left-right position.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Wildhound » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:25 pm UTC

edfel wrote:
Spoiler:
Wildhound wrote:
moody7277 wrote:<snip>

So it looks like night lasted exactly 100 np (a suspiciously round number), which would make it 8 hrs 20 min in comic time. That sound about right, cause people, me included, were figuring longer?


To be honest I think this is just further evidence that time and location have no meaning, or at least don't map properly, between the inside and outside of the OTC. Night is about 7 hours long where I am at this time of year. Of course I am at a higher latitude than the inside appears to be and it's a different time of year. Everything appears to be designed not to make sense in outside terms and I think it was very cleverly done by GLR. He kept us guessing, but gave no answers.


Okay, first of all, GLR might be messing up with us (I mean, he definitely is), but I'm pretty sure He has a very well set idea of where and when this story happens. All the clues, stars, animals, baobabs, sand, etc. have been selected minutely to 1) fit to the best of His knowledge, 2) not give away anything too obvious and 3) make us refute eventually any "easy" theory. And the "best of His knowledge" regarding star movements is NOT something to be underestimated. That's why I consider the stars to be a clue we cannot overlook.

Also the duration of night is hard to estimate, simply because we don't see the sun rising. Has the sun just appeared over the horizon? Has it completely gone over it? etc.

And, it is possible that we don't have the right night within the "12000-14000" period. Maybe 235 years and a couple of weeks later, the planets will be in the same positions, with the sun just a tiny bit higher making the night shorter. The night duration can be estimated independently of the date, given the distance between the sun and the celestial equator. However, and even though we do have a good estimation of the angle of the equator, we only have a rough estimation of it's left-right position.


On the contrary, I feel that they have been carefully selected to lead us on this chase, whilst intentionally not making sense. I am now a Randallversist.

Edit: Just to clarify, I am not trying to discredit your efforts to map Time which I think have been both fantastic and worthwhile, regardless of the realness of the location.

Nor am I discrediting the work of our astronomy buffs which I think was necessary and helped me to draw my own conclusion. I am still prepared to convinced otherwise, but for now, Randalverse it is.
Last edited by Wildhound on Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:34 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Rule110 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:27 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:So it looks like night lasted exactly 100 np (a suspiciously round number), which would make it 8 hrs 20 min in comic time. That sound about right, cause people, me included, were figuring longer?


Several estimates based on measurements of the stars' movements relative to the known angular distances between stars had the timing at 6 to 6.5 minutes per newpix. That makes the night more like 10 hrs 25 min, maybe 10 hrs 45 min including the twilight hours after the sun set and before it begins to rise (the sky shading suggests the sun has not begun to rise quite yet; compare with aubronwood frame 2385) which still count as night astronomically. That's about right for early spring.

Ninja'd by... everybody, it appears. :)

@Marsh'n: The claw was indirectly responsible for the mangling of the banner, because it required Cuegan to unravel it (in some unclear way) and then get blood all over it.

(Uh oh, can someone with graphic expertise issue me a poetic license before Marsh'n pulls me over to check it?)
Last edited by Rule110 on Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:36 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Flado » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:28 pm UTC

buffygirl wrote:On a similar note, we don't have the "grammar police" and "spelling police" going on that often occur in forum settings.

Well, I don't know about these, but seem to remember the Latin Police, even though I thought I have successfully suppressed any memory of that unfortunate episode... Oh well...
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby taixzo » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:31 pm UTC

Marsh'n wrote:
taixzo wrote:@BlitzGirl - Temporal Knighthood


In honor of your Knighthat... isn't it a Knighthat around here and not a Knighthood?
Anyway, I thought you might like this, to use or not as you see fit.
taixzo_hat_sword.png


Thank you for the Time sword! I will be proud to wield it.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mscha » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:32 pm UTC

A comparison of corner brightness values around sunrise with those around sunset...
Here are the recent values:
Spoiler:
newpix: top-left/top-right/bottom-right/bottom-left
np2469: 6/6/16/18
np2470: 6/6/16/18
np2471: 6/6/17/18
np2472: 6/6/17/18
np2473: 6/6/17/18
np2474: 6/6/18/18
np2475: 7/7/18/20
np2476: 8/9/24/24
np2477: 10/13/32/29
np2478: 16/18/45/41
np2479: 23/29/64/57
np2480: 32/39/85/75
np2481: 39/47/104/92
np2482: 43/53/123/107
np2483: 63/74/154/138
Around sunset, we had the following values (with those before sunset in italic):
Spoiler:
newpix: top-left/top-right/bottom-right/bottom-left
np2373: 151/145/216/231
np2374: 143/139/214/228
np2375: 130/126/209/223
np2376: 114/112/203/216
np2377: 106/105/200/211
np2378: 99/98/198/207
np2379: 90/88/192/201
np2380: 80/79/189/196
np2381: 75/75/185/193
np2382: 67/67/180/186

np2383: 51/53/176/183
np2384: 36/37/130/129
np2385: 28/31/108/103
np2386: 23/25/100/91
np2387: 21/23/84/74
np2388: 20/21/79/67
np2389: 18/20/74/63
np2390: 16/17/69/59
So, the values are now comparable to those just before or after sunset.
I'm not sure what we can tell from that, though, as we were looking straight towards the sunset, and have the sunrise behind us.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby k.bookbinder » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:43 pm UTC

mscha wrote:
k.bookbinder wrote:Are we experiencing some kind of Time dilation? Did Time slow down on Cueball's watch, but then return to "normal" rate on Megan's? Or can we assume that Cueball stayed up much later than we have calculated? I was under the impression that astro-analysis of the stars was fairly certain regarding the passage of time in Time, as indicated by their relative movements.

102 frames (excluding meteor) since sunset. I think the latest estimate was 6½ minutes per frame. That's 663 frames, or about 11 hours. That seems about right for early spring.


Right. So how long was Cueball awake for the watch? I suppose it only seems to me that Megan has not been up for very long.

Wouldn't it be marvelous if the GLR, Creator of Time, would be so kind as to rotate our view so that we may watch the sunrise with Megan?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jjjdavidson » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:51 pm UTC

Ashaman wrote:
Spoiler:
higgs-boson wrote:Noting this, I've to question the whole 13000-proof-chain, for it shows at least some circumstancial counter-evidence: In a world thirteen thousand years into the future, I would expect a crazy lot of artificial satellites in the sky. We'd have to develop some theories for not having crowded the sky with satellitesNSA, therefore putting some stress on Occam's razor.


Actually, the theory is well known, and Occam's razor is unstressed. All the satellites you can see moving in the sky are in low earth orbit (the ones way up in geosynchronous orbit are too dim and slow to see with the naked eye). And in low earth orbit, you aren't really in a vacuum, it's just an extremely thin atmosphere. There is still drag going on. This is why they keep having to boost the ISS into higher orbits periodically, atmospheric drag slows it down and brings it low. So over 10,000 years, without periodic maintenance or replacement, we can expect all the satellites currently in low earth orbit to have fallen to earth.

Also from the astronomical files: the periodic orbital cycles (Milankovitch cycles) that cause ice ages actually put us on a cooling trend about 6,000 years ago, and by 13,000 years from now we should be well into an ice age. However, man has created a massive detour on the ice age cycle, our meddling with atmospheric chemistry is about 1,000 times stronger than the orbital forcings, and we'll probably miss the next ice age entirely. This is probably why tropical plants are showing up in what we currently think of as non-tropical latitudes.
This also leads to speculation that the sea we were looking at is neither the Atlantic or Pacific, but the restoration of the vast inland sea that went from the Gulf coast up to around St Louis. Assuming several hundred feet of sea level rise due to the loss of Antarctic and Greenland ice cover, as well as a bit caused by thermal expansion of cold ocean water, the coastline of north america will have little resemblance to the landmass we now think of as home.

So they could be up in the Ozarks? Cool! I like the idea of baobabs in the Boston Mountains. But that does lead to some interesting possibilities about what they see up on the mountaintop.

edfel wrote:Also the duration of night is hard to estimate, simply because we don't see the sun rising. Has the sun just appeared over the horizon? Has it completely gone over it? etc.

Bear in mind also that they are in the mountains; the sun could have set behind a taller peak, or they could be in the shadow of a taller peak now. Atmospheric scattering of sunlight is fairly local.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Marsh'n » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:53 pm UTC

Rule110 wrote:(Uh oh, can someone with graphic expertise issue me a poetic license before Marsh'n pulls me over to check it?)

Flado wrote:
buffygirl wrote:On a similar note, we don't have the "grammar police" and "spelling police" going on that often occur in forum settings.


No worries, I'm not licensed (poetic, grammar, Latin, or otherwise) to pull people over in this thread. Someday perhaps I'll earn a badge (of honor, your honor) but for now, carry on... :)

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby nsub1 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:54 pm UTC

Rule110 wrote:
ucim wrote:Anybody notice the beesnake constellation in {removed image}?
It probably has a real name, but to me it's a giant beesnake. I wonder if an even gianter stellarraptor is coming up behind it. Of course, with the sun on the way, we'll probably never see it coming.

I believe pretty much everything to the right of Cuegan is Pegasus, and everything to their left is Andromeda.

I dunno, it looked a lot like Apiserpens to me. :wink:

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby VoronX » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:59 pm UTC

BlitzGirl wrote:It's nice to have more Knights Temporal about. And fitting that the knightings should happen during the Long Night of the OTC. Image


So, does that mean that Kdawnings are in order now?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jjjdavidson » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:00 pm UTC

Flado wrote:
buffygirl wrote:On a similar note, we don't have the "grammar police" and "spelling police" going on that often occur in forum settings.

Well, I don't know about these, but seem to remember the Latin Police, even though I thought I have successfully suppressed any memory of that unfortunate episode... Oh well...

Well, I've had a bit of what I thought was dog-Latin in my sig for months, and nobody's said a word, so either the Latin Police have retired or I accidentally got the declension right.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mscha » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:10 pm UTC

RUSHONGS...
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-- posted by newpixbot
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby ucim » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:13 pm UTC

jjjdavidson wrote:Well, I've had a bit of what I thought was dog-Latin in my sig for months, and nobody's said a word, so either the Latin Police have retired or I accidentally got the declension right.
It wasn't dog-latin. It was the ancient language of the scribes and clerics. It sounds a little bit like Latin, but the grammar is different and some of the words clearly have other origins.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mscha » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:15 pm UTC

Here's a finalA “dusk to dawn” animation:
Image

A: unless Randall fixes the ch*rpin' m*stard – which He still hasn't – in which case I'll regenerate it.

Edit: include three more “dusk” frames for symmetry.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby BlueCrab » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:16 pm UTC

edfel wrote:
LoonieSpace wrote:Hi xkcd Timers. Been following most of the discussion here and especially like the astronomical / astrophysical analysis. But curious if anyone ever ruled out the possibility that cuegan are on a distant-future terraformed Mars or Venus. Curious if the axis of rotation and other observations could fit.


Hi! Good question.
- Mercury: if it was ever possible to terraform Mercury, the tilt would be too small (1/2 degree)
- Venus: rotates backwards, so no (unless it has been terraformed and accelerated with the same rotation axis as Earth).
- Moon: a moon night lasts 14 days (let's assume that we have a few hours per newpix). They wouldn't see the earth from the hidden face of the moon. They also need to find a way to make an atmosphere stay on it. I like this option :)
- Mars: Axial tilt=25.19°. Check. Sideral rotation period=24.6h. Check. Terraformable=maybe. Check. Stars positions: can't see the difference with Earth. Check. Planets positions: there must be a night in 2000 years where two planets are in what we assume to be Venus and Jupiter positions. Check. No artificial satellite (or very few). Check. Sea, baobab, squirpies, etc. That's a loooot of work, which would take a looooong time. 10,000 years? Maybe. My favorite "non-earth" option
- An asteroid: hmmm, I know nothing of asteroids, except that it'd be far too hard to make an atmosphere stay on most of them
- Any other moon in the solar system (Europa, Titan,...) Er... not an expert either. Titan has a nice climate when you like ice creams...
- Any other planet out of the Solar system (like the ones discovered near alpha centuri)? Hmm, I'll need to check how much the star positions change... but I feel it should have been noticed (and, alpha century is a several-stars system, we already talked about it, I'm not sure if it's possible or not).

I keep wondering about Mars in particular, but the apparent size of the sun from there throws me even more than the flora and fauna: about 2/3 the apparent size of the sun from earth.

Venus is the only other real possibility I see, because the sun looks so much smaller from the other planets. Our location being Venus would account for the sun appearing to be larger than expected during the sunset, but the atmosphere! Terraforming that hot mess boggles my mind.

On the other hand, from the Extraterrestrial Skies entry in Wikipedia:

Venus
The atmosphere of Venus is so thick that the Sun is not distinguishable in the daytime sky, and the stars are not visible at night. Color images taken by the Soviet Venera probes suggest that the sky on Venus is orange-red.[3] If the Sun could be seen from Venus's surface, the time from one sunrise to the next (a solar day) would be 116.75 Earth days. Because of Venus's retrograde rotation, the Sun would appear to rise in the west and set in the east.[4]
An observer aloft in Venus's cloud tops, on the other hand, would whip around the planet in about four days and be treated to a sky in which Earth and the Moon shine brightly (about magnitudes −6.6[2] and −2.7, respectively) because their maximum approach occurs at opposition. Mercury would also be easy to spot, because it is closer and brighter, at up to magnitude −2.7,[2] and because its maximum elongation from the Sun is considerably larger (40.5°) than when observed from Earth (28.3°).

Emphasis added, because Wow! Hmm. How many days has the OTC been? If we get another night in about three Outside MIPS, Venus looks really likely. :D

Any opinions on which atmosphere would take more time, and more effort, to terraform? My money's on Mars being faster, but I have no real basis for thinking that.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby edo » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:28 pm UTC

BlueCrab wrote:
Spoiler:
edfel wrote:
LoonieSpace wrote:Hi xkcd Timers. Been following most of the discussion here and especially like the astronomical / astrophysical analysis. But curious if anyone ever ruled out the possibility that cuegan are on a distant-future terraformed Mars or Venus. Curious if the axis of rotation and other observations could fit.


Hi! Good question.
- Mercury: if it was ever possible to terraform Mercury, the tilt would be too small (1/2 degree)
- Venus: rotates backwards, so no (unless it has been terraformed and accelerated with the same rotation axis as Earth).
- Moon: a moon night lasts 14 days (let's assume that we have a few hours per newpix). They wouldn't see the earth from the hidden face of the moon. They also need to find a way to make an atmosphere stay on it. I like this option :)
- Mars: Axial tilt=25.19°. Check. Sideral rotation period=24.6h. Check. Terraformable=maybe. Check. Stars positions: can't see the difference with Earth. Check. Planets positions: there must be a night in 2000 years where two planets are in what we assume to be Venus and Jupiter positions. Check. No artificial satellite (or very few). Check. Sea, baobab, squirpies, etc. That's a loooot of work, which would take a looooong time. 10,000 years? Maybe. My favorite "non-earth" option
- An asteroid: hmmm, I know nothing of asteroids, except that it'd be far too hard to make an atmosphere stay on most of them
- Any other moon in the solar system (Europa, Titan,...) Er... not an expert either. Titan has a nice climate when you like ice creams...
- Any other planet out of the Solar system (like the ones discovered near alpha centuri)? Hmm, I'll need to check how much the star positions change... but I feel it should have been noticed (and, alpha century is a several-stars system, we already talked about it, I'm not sure if it's possible or not).

I keep wondering about Mars in particular, but the apparent size of the sun from there throws me even more than the flora and fauna: about 2/3 the apparent size of the sun from earth.

Venus is the only other real possibility I see, because the sun looks so much smaller from the other planets. Our location being Venus would account for the sun appearing to be larger than expected during the sunset, but the atmosphere! Terraforming that hot mess boggles my mind.

On the other hand, from the Extraterrestrial Skies entry in Wikipedia:

Venus
The atmosphere of Venus is so thick that the Sun is not distinguishable in the daytime sky, and the stars are not visible at night. Color images taken by the Soviet Venera probes suggest that the sky on Venus is orange-red.[3] If the Sun could be seen from Venus's surface, the time from one sunrise to the next (a solar day) would be 116.75 Earth days. Because of Venus's retrograde rotation, the Sun would appear to rise in the west and set in the east.[4]
An observer aloft in Venus's cloud tops, on the other hand, would whip around the planet in about four days and be treated to a sky in which Earth and the Moon shine brightly (about magnitudes −6.6[2] and −2.7, respectively) because their maximum approach occurs at opposition. Mercury would also be easy to spot, because it is closer and brighter, at up to magnitude −2.7,[2] and because its maximum elongation from the Sun is considerably larger (40.5°) than when observed from Earth (28.3°).

Emphasis added, because Wow! Hmm. How many days has the OTC been? If we get another night in about three Outside MIPS, Venus looks really likely. :D

Any opinions on which atmosphere would take more time, and more effort, to terraform? My money's on Mars being faster, but I have no real basis for thinking that.

http://earthsky.org/space/mars-north-south-star

If first the planet we saw were the earth, we would have seen the moon. I think the procession on Mars is very slow. (can stellerium show this?)
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Valarya » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:30 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
k.bookbinder wrote:Too be honest, I sometimes feel guilty that I do not contribute more. But alas, I feel I've neither the...
You contribute plenty; more than you are aware of! Think of it as coming to a potluck for a thousand. You don't have to feed a thousand; that would be absurd. You bring enough of one course for six, and it looks like not much, but a thousand people are doing the same thing and there is such a feast that you end up taking food home after being stuffed. "What, nobody liked my whatever?" Not the case - everyone is taking some of their food home, just because there is so chirpy much!

Oh awesomeful analogy, Jose! Image

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mscha » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:37 pm UTC

BlueCrab wrote:Venus is the only other real possibility I see, because the sun looks so much smaller from the other planets. Our location being Venus would account for the sun appearing to be larger than expected during the sunset, but the atmosphere! Terraforming that hot mess boggles my mind.
Spoiler:
On the other hand, from the Extraterrestrial Skies entry in Wikipedia:

Venus
The atmosphere of Venus is so thick that the Sun is not distinguishable in the daytime sky, and the stars are not visible at night. Color images taken by the Soviet Venera probes suggest that the sky on Venus is orange-red.[3] If the Sun could be seen from Venus's surface, the time from one sunrise to the next (a solar day) would be 116.75 Earth days. Because of Venus's retrograde rotation, the Sun would appear to rise in the west and set in the east.[4]
An observer aloft in Venus's cloud tops, on the other hand, would whip around the planet in about four days and be treated to a sky in which Earth and the Moon shine brightly (about magnitudes −6.6[2] and −2.7, respectively) because their maximum approach occurs at opposition. Mercury would also be easy to spot, because it is closer and brighter, at up to magnitude −2.7,[2] and because its maximum elongation from the Sun is considerably larger (40.5°) than when observed from Earth (28.3°).

That retrograde rotation is a bit of a showstopper. Not for the sun – we might be facing east, and be on the southern hemisphere – but for the stars. We see the stars rotating, and not retrogradely (if that's a word). In fact, because of the stars, we know that the sun did, in fact, set approximately west.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby thirds » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:42 pm UTC

I stealth-ketchupped over the weekend and am finished now. I have to say, putting this in some apparently random date like 13xxx feels unsettling. Chirps, I just don't like it.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby akacat » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:51 pm UTC

jjjdavidson wrote:I confess I also skip many of the timeodies posted herein. I also have to follow them in real time in my head and, besides, I really can't appreciate ones where I have no idea of the original tune─a shame, because I can appreciate how much work goes into some of them.

This neatly sums up the reason(s) I rarely read the timeodies of the OTT. And I simply don't have the Time to read most of the fiction.

Fanart, however, is quite doable.

Marsh'n wrote:What If - I have always wondered what it would be like if instead of having sharp time zone boundaries, we had watches that corrected for longitude and had a continuous gradient of time. It always seemed impractical because how would you communicate about it, except that now with smart phones it seems like we could just have filters that translate back and forth from UTC using the GPS.

It seems like that would make scheduling phone appointments quite difficult, unless you only did business with people directly north and south of you.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby BigDaddy » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:00 pm UTC

Congrats Azule! Enjoy the calm before the storm. Poop everywhere. My little molpy is nearly 6 months.

(During the first few weeks)
Wife: Awww I think he's smiling at me.
Me: Dear, I think he just trying too...
Wife: Ugh he just pooped!

Light dawns on marble head! What is Cueball gonna babble in his sleep this time?

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby edo » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:01 pm UTC

still sleepONG
Image

Edit 1: Congrats, Azule! be sure to coma when the little cub comas :)

Edit 2: So what was that last bright star to come into frame 2482?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mscha » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:10 pm UTC

I think the sun has now risen above the (eastern) horizon. For the first time, Megan's face is significantly brighter than the background, so probably in the sun.
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