1190: "Time"

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby b2bomberkrh » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:21 am UTC

I thought Cueball's um was in response to what Megan was saying. Is she going to go back now later to see all the technology? Is Cueball about to try to convince her that a simpler way of life is better? Is Cueball about to admit that he stole something too?

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby yappobiscuits » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:21 am UTC

Hmm, maybe Cueball didn't do anything and he's only going to point out that they wouldn't be able to understand the Beanish...
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Moose Anus » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:23 am UTC

Um... RUN!
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby pelrigg » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:23 am UTC

ONG wrote:
Spoiler:
Image


That cliff to the right is the one they had to scramble up in Frames M2350 & M2351 (This scene is shifted to the left). The previous scene (M2335-M2348) is the one where they stopped and looked at a molpy for a few frames. Then before that is the stream where they got their water (when Megan jumped over and said "Ow.") And then we're at Lucky's cabin. (There should be a pause of some sort at the cabin, I bet.) I wonder how far will get todaycomic?

(And I wonder how many people have ninja'd me on this info?)

Edit:
Cool Beans. Several Posts, but none with this info. 8-)

Edit: multi-grammar error fixes, What happens whenItypetoofast.
Last edited by pelrigg on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:05 am UTC, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:24 am UTC

svenman wrote:Wouldn't it be sufficient to have sufficiently leak-free and incompressible big pipes laid on the sea bottom which have their ends at 1000 m depth on the Mediterranean and the Atlantic side? Pressure differential should take care of the rest, even if the pipes rise to a mere 280 m depth to cross the Camarine Sill in between. So tunneling below the seafloor would not have to be involved.

In principle, likely yes, but a bit deeper and more like the same depth on both ends. But you have to handle the pressure in the siphon. And it is a lot of pressure. And the pipes need to be BIG to make up for the current flow or something like it. The Straits are over 14km wide and 300m deep at the shallow part. Some fraction of that is outflow.

I wonder if friction starts to play a significant part in a siphon that long. To reach that depth without drilling you still have to go over 50km. Hmmm. Are you in the pipe business?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby thirds » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:27 am UTC

Blindpost from somewhere around new page 1150...

I'm currently traveling, outside, and have tried keeping up with the OTC and Ott but I just don't think I'll be able too. I feel like I'm missing out on so much, and I'm missing the everyone and the posts here. The Rosetta sequence was one if my favorites, and I got up to the change in title text, but I just won't be able to keep up for the next couple of weeks.

So, if Time Permits, I will see you all in a couple of weeks.

Molpy packed.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:27 am UTC

lgw wrote:That could actually work. Think of it as an engine. The power/heat source is the sun, which causes evaporation of the med, increasing it's salinity as a byproduct. We convert this thermal energy to mechanical energy by taking advantage of the salinity difference. Horribly inefficient, by at this scale who cares?

Problem: vast death of sea life in the turbines. Solution: new chain of sushi restaurants! Easy! Silly greens, always worrying over nothing. :p


Silly sea life! We will put signage on all laguages! Problem solved! Not being able to read? Too unevolved to live, Darwin sends his condolences.

[humor off]

Why not put a mesh/net in front of the turbine? It's also there in place to stop the debris from entering/damaging the big precious turbines. Small sea life can get through unharmed. I'm now inclined to calculate how much energy can be produced...

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Angelastic » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:30 am UTC

Cueball probably stole a telescope.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby pelrigg » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:34 am UTC

Angelastic wrote:Cueball probably stole a telescope.


I think so too.


And maybe a jar of salve.


(I think in the long run, if they (Megball) do save their tribe, they'll try to get the tribe to come with them to Beanie Land.)
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:42 am UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:
svenman wrote:Wouldn't it be sufficient to have sufficiently leak-free and incompressible big pipes laid on the sea bottom which have their ends at 1000 m depth on the Mediterranean and the Atlantic side? Pressure differential should take care of the rest, even if the pipes rise to a mere 280 m depth to cross the Camarine Sill in between. So tunneling below the seafloor would not have to be involved.

In principle, likely yes, but a bit deeper and more like the same depth on both ends. But you have to handle the pressure in the siphon. And it is a lot of pressure. And the pipes need to be BIG to make up for the current flow or something like it. The Straits are over 14km wide and 300m deep at the shallow part. Some fraction of that is outflow.

I wonder if friction starts to play a significant part in a siphon that long. To reach that depth without drilling you still have to go over 50km. Hmmm. Are you in the pipe business?


OK, let's say we build a dam accross the shallowest point. We leave dozens of large cylindrical holes on the bottom, fitted with pumps (reverse-turbines). They are mechanically connected with a long shaft to turbines at sea leves. These turbines are driven by inflow of ocean water due to sea level difference. Of course, the system is not 100% efficient, so more water flows in then it gets pumped out, but the evaporation takes business of the rest.

Yeah, the outflow surface is quite big, but it's only 1 m/s. With reverse-turbine pumps I bet you can get it to move way faster.

Isn't that a much simpler way?

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Re: 1190: "Time" Final TdF Update

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:43 am UTC

Final Stage
Very short report.
Everything ended as expected. Froome in Yellow. Sagan in Green. Quintana in both Polka Dots and White. Saxo-Tinkoff gets the team award (a consolation for Contador). Marcel Kittel, who won the first stage won the last also. And Christophe Riblon wins the overall Fighting Spirit award. And Svein Tuft gets the Lantern Rouge at 4h 27'55". My memory isn't great, but I think that in the past the spread between first and last was much more.

Sadly, only 169 racers finished the tour (the most is 170) as Lieuwe Westra abandoned the race today with only 38km yet to ride. I don't know why he had to quit, but I assume some illness. Not a crash anyway. But it was expected that all 170 starters would finish to tie a record.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby hunjoh » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:44 am UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:
svenman wrote:Wouldn't it be sufficient to have sufficiently leak-free and incompressible big pipes laid on the sea bottom which have their ends at 1000 m depth on the Mediterranean and the Atlantic side? Pressure differential should take care of the rest, even if the pipes rise to a mere 280 m depth to cross the Camarine Sill in between. So tunneling below the seafloor would not have to be involved.

In principle, likely yes, but a bit deeper and more like the same depth on both ends. But you have to handle the pressure in the siphon. And it is a lot of pressure. And the pipes need to be BIG to make up for the current flow or something like it. The Straits are over 14km wide and 300m deep at the shallow part. Some fraction of that is outflow.

I wonder if friction starts to play a significant part in a siphon that long. To reach that depth without drilling you still have to go over 50km. Hmmm. Are you in the pipe business?

The pressure difference will be small. We started off this conversation trying to create a pressure differential equal to 2 meters of sea water. 10 meters of water is about an atmosphere, so we are talking 1/5 of atmospheric pressure. Also, I think that we mostly only need the part of the siphon that goes down into the Atlantic. In the Med side, I think we only need to go deep enough to make sure that the siphon is securely drawing from the pool of more saline water that accumulates in the Mediterranean basin.

My understanding is that one of the biggest obstacles to submarine power turbines is barnacles and such. Give them a hard substrate and flowing water and they will colonize all of the available surfaces in the tube and on the turbine.
Last edited by hunjoh on Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:57 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Random musings

Postby Davidy » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:45 am UTC

keshat wrote:
Davidy wrote:[...]

We haven't really pinpointed where Cuegan came from. Since they walked east (into the morning sun) for a day before turning north, I would put them somewhere near the "A" in the map's "This sea is yours".
Spoiler:
Image
This would put them probably around 200 Km southwest of Marseilles, somewhere in the vicinity of present Cap de Creus Spain. This fits in with the amount of walking they've done.


I think if you look about the space of two letters to the right of "A" you mention, you'll see a river marked with a dotted line. I think this is Megball's starting point.

I don't think we can put them too far east since the Medeterranean has a large drop off from the continental shelf pretty near the coast of Spain. That is the area covered by "their sea". The Beanies' map doesn't agree with modern sea floor soundings.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:49 am UTC

Gedeon wrote:
OK, let's say we build a dam accross the shallowest point. We leave dozens of large cylindrical holes on the bottom, fitted with pumps (reverse-turbines). They are mechanically connected with a long shaft to turbines at sea leves. These turbines are driven by inflow of ocean water due to sea level difference. Of course, the system is not 100% efficient, so more water flows in then it gets pumped out, but the evaporation takes business of the rest.

Yeah, the outflow surface is quite big, but it's only 1 m/s. With reverse-turbine pumps I bet you can get it to move way faster.

Isn't that a much simpler way?


Hmmm. So you build all of this to do exactly what the open, natural, system does now? I don't think you have changed the water level, which was why all this was proposed. Unless I missed some key point.

On the other hand, I think you've pulled my chain.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Flado » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:51 am UTC

Wow. I'm present for the first time since the Fading (NP416). Hi, FutureFolk!
Hmm... it doesn't look like Time's end is imminent, so enough schizoblitzing (25NP, 15np). Back to NP799.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:52 am UTC

hunjoh wrote:The pressure difference will be small. We started off this conversation trying to create a pressure differential equal to 2 meters of sea water. 10 meters of water is about an atmosphere, so we are talking 1/5 of atmospheric pressure. Also, I think that we mostly only need part of the siphon that goes down into the Atlantic. In the Med side, I think we only need to go deep enough to make sure that the siphon is securely drawing from the pool of more saline water that accumulates in the Mediterranean basin.


That could also be enough, yes.


hunjoh wrote:My understanding is that one of the biggest obstacles to submarine power turbines is barnacles and such. Give them a hard substrate and flowing water and they will colonize all of the available surfaces in the tube and on the turbine.


I think there exist modern materials/coatings that repell such unholy creatures...

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby svenman » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:57 am UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:
Spoiler:
svenman wrote:Anyway, I wasn't trying to argue that such a dam would be a good idea in (heresy)real life[/heresy]. However, the premise of the OTC seems to be that a dam at Gibraltar was built (I remain unconvinced that it could have been formed accidentally through earthquakes). Working backwards from that assumption, what could have been the motivation to build the dam? And things did go wrong, at least in the very long run, so the possibility remains open that the project was ill-conceived indeed, or else had very serious but anticipated drawbacks that still seemed like the lesser evil.

ETA: Oops, I seem to have been partially vindicated by Gedeon. :-)
I think the premise of the dam is entirely OTT, not OTC. I don't recall any evidence of that. Just speculation here that the beanies are somehow responsible.

Rosetta seemed to make rockslides responsible for the closing of the Gibraltar Strait here but spoke of a dam or "berm" here which might indicate an artificial structure. Due to her language difficulties, the analysis of her words must remain ambiguous. In my view, however, a sealing off of the Strait of Gibraltar by entirely natural processes within the next 10,000 years seems less plausible than a man-made, possibly ill-conceived and megalomaniacal project being a part of the causes.

charlie_grumbles wrote:
Gedeon wrote:Like I said, if the ocean starts to rise and the rest of the world says "aww fuck it"... what else should we do? The Med is much more sensitive in this regard, because cities are very close to sea-level (about a meter above or less).

Erm... So is New York. Most of Bangladesh, Much of Northwest Europe. And on. It isn't just the cities on the Med.

Unlike coastal cities on the oceans, those on the Mediterranean are mostly not adapted to high and low tides and therefore are especially vulnerable to rising sea levels even outside of catastrophic events - I guess that is what Gedeon was trying to say.

charlie_grumbles wrote:Hmmm. Are you in the pipe business?

Not yet, but it looks like a good time to start investing. :)
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:58 am UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:
Gedeon wrote:
OK, let's say we build a dam accross the shallowest point. We leave dozens of large cylindrical holes on the bottom, fitted with pumps (reverse-turbines). They are mechanically connected with a long shaft to turbines at sea leves. These turbines are driven by inflow of ocean water due to sea level difference. Of course, the system is not 100% efficient, so more water flows in then it gets pumped out, but the evaporation takes business of the rest.

Yeah, the outflow surface is quite big, but it's only 1 m/s. With reverse-turbine pumps I bet you can get it to move way faster.

Isn't that a much simpler way?


Hmmm. So you build all of this to do exactly what the open, natural, system does now?
I don't think you have changed the water level, which was why all this was proposed. Unless I missed some key point.

On the other hand, I think you've pulled my chain.



No, we shall build all of this to preserve ecology and human habitat at the same time. I am an ecologist, but at the same time don't want to see half of croatian cities under water. Yes, you missed a key point. The ocean is rising. There will be a water level difference. If you want to lower the Med slightly, you just reduce inflow, the evaporation then reduces the water level. Yes, it needs to be a tightly controlled system. But if there are problems in the future, it's not that hard to blow the dam(n) thing up. That's actually a legit concern...
Last edited by Gedeon on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:03 am UTC, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:58 am UTC

hunjoh wrote:The pressure difference will be small. We started off this conversation trying to create a pressure differential equal to 2 meters of sea water. 10 meters of water is about an atmosphere, so we are talking 1/5 of atmospheric pressure. Also, I think that we mostly only need part of the siphon that goes down into the Atlantic. In the Med side, I think we only need to go deep enough to make sure that the siphon is securely drawing from the pool of more saline water that accumulates in the Mediterranean basin.

My understanding is that one of the biggest obstacles to submarine power turbines is barnacles and such. Give them a hard substrate and flowing water and they will colonize all of the available surfaces in the tube and on the turbine.


Actually you have to get (more than) deep enough to make the pressure balance. Otherwise it draws from the Atlantic into the basin. That has been calculated already to be 1km deep.

Ah yes barnacles. And zebra clams. and ... Don't forget to clean the whale filter. We can defeat barnacles with chemicals. Oh great. Next problem? Oh yes, the chemicals.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby pelrigg » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:00 am UTC

run, Run RUN RONG
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Next Stop: Lucky's Cabin!!!
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby NetWeasel » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:06 am UTC

Cartographers Ahoy!

I found another map for overlay!

Image

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby CasCat » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:07 am UTC

Hmm. They're not pausing to refill water bottles. Seems a little foolish. Runners (or, probably, joggers, given the distance they need to cover) need a lot of water.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:09 am UTC

svenman wrote:
charlie_grumbles wrote:
Gedeon wrote:Like I said, if the ocean starts to rise and the rest of the world says "aww fuck it"... what else should we do? The Med is much more sensitive in this regard, because cities are very close to sea-level (about a meter above or less).

Erm... So is New York. Most of Bangladesh, Much of Northwest Europe. And on. It isn't just the cities on the Med.

Unlike coastal cities on the oceans, those on the Mediterranean are mostly not adapted to high and low tides and therefore are especially vulnerable to rising sea levels even outside of catastrophic events - I guess that is what Gedeon was trying to say.

charlie_grumbles wrote:Hmmm. Are you in the pipe business?

Not yet, but it looks like a good time to start investing. :)



Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. The tidal difference in the Med is less than 1 meter in extreme circumstances.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Ximenez » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:11 am UTC

Prediction!:

LaPetite was sent by the Beanies to look for more people. She missed the tents, and didn't see Cuegan because they were swimming (first) or walking away (later). With her superior knowledge, she used the saltcastle IKEA materials to build a dam.

Also, LaPetite is Rosetta's daughter.

(Please, don't ask what's always happening with my predictions.)

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby ggh » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:13 am UTC

yappobiscuits wrote:Hmm, maybe Cueball didn't do anything and he's only going to point out that they wouldn't be able to understand the Beanish...

I think he was just reacting to her sudden comfort with stealing. But I'm not going to hold it against her - it's a very xkcd-ish thing to ponder.

I sure do hope that the Beanish society is good about making backups though.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby hunjoh » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:14 am UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:Actually you have to get (more than) deep enough to make the pressure balance. Otherwise it draws from the Atlantic into the basin. That has been calculated already to be 1km deep.

Could you explain this? I don't understand.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:16 am UTC

Darn, i think we have a problem!

The inflow of Rhone (the pretty neat river) is westerly to Chateau d'If!

That means, if they had come from west they should've crossed it to get to the castle! Either the castle is not Chateau d'If, Rhone has drastically changed course, or they came from the east.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:16 am UTC

Gedeon wrote:No, we shall build all of this to preserve ecology and human habitat at the same time. I am an ecologist, but at the same time don't want to see half of croatian cities under water. Yes, you missed a key point. The ocean is rising. There will be a water level difference. If you want to lower the Med slightly, you just reduce inflow, the evaporation then reduces the water level. Yes, it needs to be a tightly controlled system. But if there are problems in the future, it's not that hard to blow the dam(n) thing up. That's actually a legit concern...

Sorry. I thought you were being snarky, not serious. I think that your design has less than 0% efficiency. You are really trying to pump the salty water uphill, in effect, using for power the less saline water falling downhill on the input side. This would seem to be impossible without additional power inputs. It is a perpetual motion machine. Friction in the system gives you negative efficiency, I think. Details spoilered.

Some power dams do, in fact, pump water back uphill in the nighttime when power is cheap and release it during the day when power is expensive. It is economically efficient, but not from a physics standpoint.

Spoiler:
At 300 meters deep, you don't have the effect of the increased density of the saline water to any appreciable extent. If your dam holds the Atlantic 3m higher than the Mediterranean, then pumping from the Med side is pumping up those 3m just as if they were a hill. The water coming in from the Atlantic side is also only falling 3m. You don't have any power gain here.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:20 am UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:Sorry. I thought you were being snarky, not serious. I think that your design has less than 0% efficiency. You are really trying to pump the salty water uphill, in effect, using for power the less saline water falling downhill on the input side. This would seem to be impossible without additional power inputs. It is a perpetual motion machine. Friction in the system gives you negative efficiency, I think. Details spoilered.

Some power dams do, in fact, pump water back uphill in the nighttime when power is cheap and release it during the day when power is expensive. It is economically efficient, but not from a physics standpoint.

Spoiler:
At 300 meters deep, you don't have the effect of the increased density of the saline water to any appreciable extent. If your dam holds the Atlantic 3m higher than the Mediterranean, then pumping from the Med side is pumping up those 3m just as if they were a hill. The water coming in from the Atlantic side is also only falling 3m. You don't have any power gain here.


I understand that!

Like I've said, it`s not 100% efficient (as in, some energy is lost on friction etc.), therefore more water flows in than it gets pumped out. But the difference is nullified by evaporation. Solar power is making it efficient. Terribly unefficiently efficient, but who cares-solar energy is free energy.
Last edited by Gedeon on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:24 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Someguy945 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:22 am UTC

CasCat wrote:Hmm. They're not pausing to refill water bottles. Seems a little foolish. Runners (or, probably, joggers, given the distance they need to cover) need a lot of water.


We're missing so much, it's entirely possible that they refilled.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby edo » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:25 am UTC

@Keiryn: I've made no secret of not being and not knowing Randall.

@CasCat: Perhaps they'll use the steam bottle.

@Gedeon: you're not thinking 4th dementionally! Oin the future, the outflow of the Rhone is southeast of the Chateau d'If
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Pikrass » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:27 am UTC

CasCat wrote:Hmm. They're not pausing to refill water bottles. Seems a little foolish. Runners (or, probably, joggers, given the distance they need to cover) need a lot of water.


They refilled at the Beanies' tower already. I guess they haven't drink a lot since then.


Prediction: they will reach the sea¹ sooner than expected. On the horizon they will then see huge boats made of baobabs with their people. Unfortunately, the baobabs were planted by the Beanies to suck the water as it reached them. The new sea level will then be a little higher than expected, drowning the Beanies and making the trip too long for the Cueganians who will all die of starvation, in a Raft-of-the-Medusa ending. Thus ends Time.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby b2bomberkrh » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:28 am UTC

I don't agree that Rosetta's language implies a dam was used to bottle up the Atlantic to create the Medi basin in the first place. I thought the dam or berm she was referring to might just as easily be there attempt to hold the water back which she said had failed. My interpretation, although no more well founded than anything else, was that the straits had been blocked in the first place by rock, a rockslide or landslide had cleared some part of the block, the Beanies tried to dam up the breach, but it didn't work, and now it's all coming crashing through.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby xpatiate » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:29 am UTC

I guess that was a rhetorical "Um...". I like that Megan is pondering stealing a guide on how to build a telescope, not a telescope itself :) I'm sure the Beanies would be happy to share that information with them.

Tatiana wrote:There's something so very convincing about our everyday lives, or something, that people just have to wave away real true dangers that we're well aware of and have the technology to prevent. So my experience is that it's going to be difficult for Cuegan to convince the Forty to run.


Yes indeed, as this excerpt from a recent book makes clear:

Forensic reconstruction after a famous restaurant fire in the Beverly Hills Supper Club in Kentucky confirmed that many of the victims sought to pay before leaving, and so died in a queue.
...
After twenty-five years as a psychoanalyst, I can’t say that this surprises me. We resist change. Committing ourselves to a small change, even one that is unmistakably in our best interest, is often more frightening than ignoring a dangerous situation.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jjjdavidson » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:30 am UTC

Gedeon wrote:
lgw wrote:
Spoiler:
That could actually work. Think of it as an engine. The power/heat source is the sun, which causes evaporation of the med, increasing it's salinity as a byproduct. We convert this thermal energy to mechanical energy by taking advantage of the salinity difference. Horribly inefficient, by at this scale who cares?

Problem: vast death of sea life in the turbines. Solution: new chain of sushi restaurants! Easy! Silly greens, always worrying over nothing. :p
Why not put a mesh/net in front of the turbine? It's also there in place to stop the debris from entering/damaging the big precious turbines. Small sea life can get through unharmed. I'm now inclined to calculate how much energy can be produced...

Any system like that requires maintenance, sometimes of an unexpected sort. When they built Arkansas Nuclear One, they used a cooling tower for one reactor but used the Arkansas River to cool the other. One consequence: Fishermen gathered downriver, because the warmer water from the outflow increased the fish population. :) Another consequence: Baby mussels attached themselves to the inflow filters, requiring much more frequent cleaning than the designers had planned. :(

The Law of Unintended Consequences is scary. I was told a story once about a river bridge in Phoenix. The engineers planned it carefully, analyzing the river currents, probably even planning for barge impacts. Still, one morning a state trooper was driving over the bridge when his car went airborne, launched by a new hump in the roadbed. What the engineers didn't plan on was some idiot issuing a dredging license to a gravel company just upstream of the bridge. The dredging shifted the river currents enough that the river shifted a bridge pillar, buckling the road.

Gedeon wrote:
Spoiler:
svenman wrote:
charlie_grumbles wrote:
Gedeon wrote:Like I said, if the ocean starts to rise and the rest of the world says "aww fuck it"... what else should we do? The Med is much more sensitive in this regard, because cities are very close to sea-level (about a meter above or less).

Erm... So is New York. Most of Bangladesh, Much of Northwest Europe. And on. It isn't just the cities on the Med.

Unlike coastal cities on the oceans, those on the Mediterranean are mostly not adapted to high and low tides and therefore are especially vulnerable to rising sea levels even outside of catastrophic events - I guess that is what Gedeon was trying to say.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. The tidal difference in the Med is less than 1 meter in extreme circumstances.

Many U.S. cities are not that far above high tide; witness how much flooding there's been around the Gulf Coast and the Florida peninsula in recent storms ─ in spite of centuries of history of hurricane-driven flooding. (Heck, most of Florida is barely above high tide...)
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:31 am UTC

hunjoh wrote:
charlie_grumbles wrote:Actually you have to get (more than) deep enough to make the pressure balance. Otherwise it draws from the Atlantic into the basin. That has been calculated already to be 1km deep.

Could you explain this? I don't understand.

Ignore for a moment the salinity question (saline is denser than fresh). A siphon pumps water from the "short" side to the "long" side because of the extra water's weight in the longer "long" side tube. That is why you can't siphon uphill, only downhill. So, if you throw a siphon over a dam, water will run from the high water side of the dam to the low. If you make the siphon tubes longer (on either side) below the water line, it won't change that. And that is what you get if you just put the Med side of the siphon a bit below sea level.

So, to make this whole saline siphon work, you have to get the "high" side on the Med side. But it doesn't have to be high in altitude, just high in pressure. So make your tubes really long on both sides, so that on the Med side you reach heavier, denser water, but not on the Atlantic side. That gives you the higher pressure to overcome the difference in height since you have "lighter" water in the Atlantic. But it takes (apparently, I'm trusting the estimates given earlier) 1km of depth to get there. But you have to balance that on the Atlantic side as well.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby pelrigg » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:32 am UTC

Someguy945 wrote:
CasCat wrote:Hmm. They're not pausing to refill water bottles. Seems a little foolish. Runners (or, probably, joggers, given the distance they need to cover) need a lot of water.


We're missing so much, it's entirely possible that they refilled.


It's also possible that they haven't taken a drink yet*, so their water bottles are still full from the 2nd Beanie tower.

*Which is also a problem. (However, there are stories about American Indians being able to travel a long ways without stopping for water. {Anybody seen or read "Tell Them Willie Boy Was Here**"?})

**Edit:
Sorry; "Tell Them Willie Boy Is Here" is the correct title.
Last edited by pelrigg on Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:50 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random musings

Postby tavella » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:40 am UTC

Davidy wrote:
keshat wrote:
Davidy wrote:[...]We haven't really pinpointed where Cuegan came from. Since they walked east (into the morning sun) for a day before turning north, I would put them somewhere near the "A" in the map's "This sea is yours".
Spoiler:
Image
This would put them probably around 200 Km southwest of Marseilles, somewhere in the vicinity of present Cap de Creus Spain. This fits in with the amount of walking they've done.


I think if you look about the space of two letters to the right of "A" you mention, you'll see a river marked with a dotted line. I think this is Megball's starting point.

I don't think we can put them too far east since the Medeterranean has a large drop off from the continental shelf pretty near the coast of Spain. That is the area covered by "their sea". The Beanies' map doesn't agree with modern sea floor soundings.


This is where they are:

Image

and the red line is the fastest way to climbable high ground. If they can make it up to the ridge the line follows , they'll be safe enough -- they should be able to advance faster than the water rises, especially as it slows as it spills over the Sicily Sill. The problem is, where they will logically take refuge is in the hills, and from this:

Image

You can see that by the time they realize the water is going to cover the hills (some are visible in the bottom corner) as well, they will be separated by miles of sea from the path to safety. So Megan and Cueball are going to try to cut straight from the bottom of the cliff across to the tents. Odds are, that's already underwater, but they may meet up with their people in the hills. Especially if Cueball did steal a telescope.

I feel since rafts were hung over the mantelpiece early in their journey, they will then have to build rafts to cross the rising water to the ridge.

Or they are all already dead and Megball will die as they search the hills for them and linger too long and are drowned, but that seems a little nihilistic for Randall.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby cryptoengineer » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:42 am UTC

Undoubtedly I'll be ninja'd here, but I have a lot of problems with this.

The Med has more evaporation than is made up by rain and inflowing rivers. Thus, sea water flows in from the Atlantic, and evaporates. Denser brine flows out along the floor of the Straits of Gibraltar. During WW2, submarines used this fact to drift silently through the Strait in both directions, with their engines off.

The siphon idea relies on the average density of the water in the Med being higher than that in the Atlantic. If that's the case, below a certain depth (as measured from the center of the earth) the water on the Med side is at a higher pressure than that on the Atlantic side at the same depth, measured the same way. In that case, the siphon would move deep brine from the Med to that Atlantic, despite the water being higher than on Atlantic side.

It might work, but you'd have to run the numbers to convince me - how much saltier does the Med have to be to counter balance a few meters of water? What does that do to the near-surface ecology?

The turbine idea uses the drop of water into the Med from the Atlantic to run pumps moving deep brine back to the Atlantic. Again, without running the numbers this is impossible to judge - you certainly have less mass to move back (same salt in less water), but efficiencies count in the real world, as do barnacles.

Both depend deeply on how salty the deep brine is. Until we run the numbers, we're just making noise.

As McCarthy said: "He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to speak nonsense."

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 1:44 am UTC

xpatiate wrote:I guess that was a rhetorical "Um...". I like that Megan is pondering stealing a guide on how to build a telescope, not a telescope itself :) I'm sure the Beanies would be happy to share that information with them.

Tatiana wrote:There's something so very convincing about our everyday lives, or something, that people just have to wave away real true dangers that we're well aware of and have the technology to prevent. So my experience is that it's going to be difficult for Cuegan to convince the Forty to run.


Yes indeed, as this excerpt from a recent book makes clear:

Forensic reconstruction after a famous restaurant fire in the Beverly Hills Supper Club in Kentucky confirmed that many of the victims sought to pay before leaving, and so died in a queue.
...
After twenty-five years as a psychoanalyst, I can’t say that this surprises me. We resist change. Committing ourselves to a small change, even one that is unmistakably in our best interest, is often more frightening than ignoring a dangerous situation.



Wow, a really neat excerpt. I know of this, and I always try to act swiftly when I face danger, but I have still fallen victim to that principle. :(


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