1190: "Time"

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:24 pm UTC

42 guests wrote:How much salt would have accumulated around Cugan's beach? Would it have been a thin crust, or would it have been enough to cover any sand?

Never been to a hyper-saline location like the Dead Sea, so I don't know how realistic sand would be. Wikipedia shows halite pebbles.

Would be more salt since it is the Mediterranean that has dried up. Can you build castles with damp salt?

This, too, has been discussed. It is likely a mixture of salt and gypsum, not sand. It holds together. It is probably tens of meters thick. All the salt in a salty ocean. Wikipedia will tell you more. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messinian_salinity_crisis
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jazz14456 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:27 pm UTC

Oops! See you guys some other time. Somebody answered my question on stack overflow.com XD
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby CasCat » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:27 pm UTC

Exodies wrote:Two depressing things for a kvetcheruper:
When you go to the next page and the last page number has increased by more than one.
When you see someone's centenary cake and their post count is almost at the next one.


"Kvetcher-upper" -- one who complains while ketchupping? :lol:
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby svenman » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:30 pm UTC

Eutychus wrote:
svenman wrote:In my view, these Bilby towers belong to the same category as Cuegan speaking early-21st-century English. What we are shown is as far as I'm concerned just a stand-in for a functional equivalent in Cuegan's actual "reality".


Wow. You mean the drawings might be the artistic counterpart to verbal "dynamic equivalent" translation? We're "seeing" not what Cuegan actually see, but what we would see if we were them?

That's about it, or more precisely: We are shown things that have the same meaning to us (potentially at least, because they may do so only after some research) as the "actual" things that Cuegan "see" have to them.

Eutychus wrote:That is so thought provoking I will have to go and coma on it soon (but any references to anybody else doing that kind of thing in art welcome in the meantime).

What comes to my mind first is a whole lot of religious art from the Middle Age and Renaissance. Biblical scenes were usually depicted in a setting that would have appeared contemporary and familiar to the artist and the viewers, with the protagonists wearing clothes to match (Example: the Isenheim Altarpiece by Matthias Grünewald). E. g., a painting of the birth of Christ would show a background of a medieval German or a Renaissance-era Italian town as a stand-in for Bethlehem, with the depicted persons wearing clothes from medieval Germany or Renaissance Italy, rather than a realistic town from Palestine under Roman rule with the persons wearing clothes from that time and age.

There are also examples from cinematography, like this or this Shakespeare adaptation.

Edit: Belatedly corrected quote attribution upon revisiting old posts.
Last edited by svenman on Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:17 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jazz14456 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:34 pm UTC

Change of plans, I thought of something interesting about OTC. Somebody might already have thought of this, but its worth bringing up.
Why are we assuming that they are talking American/British early 21st century English? Or even English in general?
It could just be that that is how the comic (which could be viewed as a documentary, a historic representation of the real fictional world and not the fictional world itself) displays the information, so that it is understandable by the majority of us. Orson Scott Card said something along the lines of "When you recognize any mistakes in the Enderverse, remember that real life documentaries don't display the information exactly as it happened either."
Why are we assuming that Cugan is speaking English?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jazz14456 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:35 pm UTC

EDIT: Double Posted
Last edited by jazz14456 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:37 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jazz14456 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:37 pm UTC

Svenman posted that as I was writing my post..... thats hilarious if noone has thought of this before him.
Reminds me of http://xkcd.com/626/
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby acunning40 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:38 pm UTC

jazz14456 wrote:Why are we assuming that Cugan is speaking English?

We're not. ;) That's what svenman meant:
svenman wrote:In my view, these Bilby towers belong to the same category as Cuegan speaking early-21st-century English. What we are shown is as far as I'm concerned just a stand-in for a functional equivalent in Cuegan's actual "reality".

This thread is cyclical; almost everything you can think of has already been discussed, often several different times. :D
Last edited by acunning40 on Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:39 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby NetWeasel » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:39 pm UTC

The Explain Pages...
Spoiler:
jovialbard wrote:

Woah! It's like walking into a parallel universe! Only one that's less like a cocktail party and more like a... uh... well, wiki I guess... is there a good physical metaphor for a wiki? I guess most wiki discussion pages are like a convention, where you can go to different panels and they discuss different topics. Except it feels like there's more depth of discussion here since we all have to listen to each other's jabbering instead of skimming over the bits we don't care about and might get drawn into a discussion we wouldn't ordinarily participate in! Another reason to like the OTTer party atmosphere!

That's where I got started before I found this place... It's much better over here :D
I much prefer the forum format -- there's much more give and take, better discussion. I spent years over at huffingtonpost under this same name.

What Are Little Dunes Made Of?
Spoiler:
CasCat wrote:
NetWeasel wrote:Those aren't sand dunes, are they?

Might they be salt? and therefore dissolvable?

They're probably salty sand, or sandy salt, or silty salt, or something like that. But remember that the sea is pretty well salt-saturated so it'll take some time for the dunes to dissolve. Anyway, I'm not sure what difference it makes; it'll be swept up and over regardless of what material it's made of. Unless you're imagine them floundering through ankle-deep water? I think the floods shown as comparisons in this thread are rather more violent than that; even ankle-deep you wouldn't want to be in it.

At this point the sea may be as much as half Atlantic seawater, so not quite as saturated as before...
charlie_grumbles wrote:[It is likely a mixture of salt and gypsum, not sand. It holds together. It is probably tens of meters thick. All the salt in a salty ocean. Wikipedia will tell you more. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messinian_salinity_crisis

You mean, if they are too late, they might have to escape the onrushing sea by quickly trudging through quickly dissolving mountains of water-soaked salty drywall? ew....

Beanie Technology
Spoiler:
hunjoh wrote:I just assumed that they had some knowledge of our times, and so were not re-inventing everything.

An additional point on that... Their maps showing the "new" coastline seemed really close to the "old" (20th century) shoreline -- They may not have done the calculations; they may have just looked up the old coastline in the ancient texts, and those old figures may be off by 10-20 meters. Someone has said that the Atlantic coastline looks very 20th century; someone else estimated the drop in Atlantic sea level (once this event is over) as being as much as 10 meters...
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby keithl » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:40 pm UTC

Anna-X wrote:... So basically, what could possibly have happened on Earth that would wipe out all this "basic knowledge" but not all of human kind? ...
A century of television entertainment?

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby SinusPi » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:40 pm UTC

jazz14456 wrote:Why are we assuming that Cugan is speaking English?

No we're not, not as a whole, anyway. A pretty common notion, at one point, was to assume they speak "Unglish" (hence USB - Unglish, Squarish, Beanish - when we thought Hairypattabrundlefly still spoke proper Unglish, that is.

brundlefly This came out more wrong than I hoped Hairdo-Hypatia-Rosetta to be brundleflied into, but there it is...

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:40 pm UTC

jazz14456 wrote:Svenman posted that as I was writing my post..... thats hilarious if noone has thought of this before him.
Reminds me of http://xkcd.com/626/


There were numerous posts speculating that...

Damn, svenman is closer than me... Stuttgart, I presume?

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jazz14456 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:40 pm UTC

acunning40 wrote:
jazz14456 wrote:Why are we assuming that Cugan is speaking English?

We're not. ;) That's what svenman meant:
svenman wrote:In my view, these Bilby towers belong to the same category as Cuegan speaking early-21st-century English. What we are shown is as far as I'm concerned just a stand-in for a functional equivalent in Cuegan's actual "reality".

This thread is cyclical; almost everything you can think of has already been discussed, often several different times. :D

Sorry about that, I actually didn't read his post until I had posted. Thats really strange.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Exodies » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:43 pm UTC

yappobiscuits wrote:
BlitzGirl wrote:Now that's a flag! That could cover a HUGE raptorcat wound! :D

A huge wound or a huge raptorcat? Image

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby HES » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:43 pm UTC

b2bomberkrh wrote:(backwards ketchuping being perhaps called mayoing, or upketching, but not enough people doing it to really have a solid word for it yet.)

I refuse to accept anything other than puhctek.

Valarya wrote:I get busy for two seconds and missed it. Lame.

So, when I hear the phrase "get busy", it means, erm, ch*rping. Two seconds would be pretty lame...
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:43 pm UTC

keithl wrote:
Anna-X wrote:... So basically, what could possibly have happened on Earth that would wipe out all this "basic knowledge" but not all of human kind? ...
A century of television entertainment?

[90 point type]YES![/90 point type]

Actually, though, that's an oxymoron.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Swein » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:45 pm UTC

A quick check-in from the wilderness, and I just ... Holy f...n GLR!!! What have you done! :shock: Well, no more idle chatting about cakes and molpys while waiting for it apparently. I will miss that, but now it is the time of running, and run I'll have to do ... just to keep up! I wonder how many new posts have arrived just while I'm writing this.

My fingers itch to comment on everything going on, but I realize I have to refrain. :(
But, just to cheer up tired ketchuppers...
Spoiler:
The snacks-molpy
Image
Take a bit and send it on...
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jazz14456 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:46 pm UTC

SinusPi wrote:
jazz14456 wrote:Why are we assuming that Cugan is speaking English?

No we're not, not as a whole, anyway. A pretty common notion, at one point, was to assume they speak "Unglish" (hence USB - Unglish, Squarish, Beanish - when we thought Hairypattabrundlefly still spoke proper Unglish, that is.

brundlefly This came out more wrong than I hoped Hairdo-Hypatia-Rosetta to be brundleflied into, but there it is...

What do our labels of Unglish and Squarish mean? Beanish is the guys with beanie caps.

Another idea, that is interesting even though its very unlikely: what if the Beans weren't actually speaking the same language, or there were multiple languages that we have previously labeled as Beanish? From the view of what you guys just talked about, even if Cugan ARE speaking or aren't speaking our version of English, isn't it possible that the Beans aren't speaking the same ones? It could even be that each Bean is speaking an entirely different language. It seems pretty implausible since they all seem to be communicating.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jetpac » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:52 pm UTC

Hey, just curious (and this being the OTT, I'm sure someone has pointed it out), why doesn't the capitalization on mscha's viewer match the capitalization on the actual OTC?

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Rule110 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:54 pm UTC

NetWeasel wrote:
cryptoengineer wrote:
Rule110 wrote:
Spoiler:
Possibly relevant to the eternal "how much was planned in advance" question. Here's a list of things in the comic that, in retrospect, are consistent with (and therefore potential clues to) Megan and Cueball climbing out of a deep basin with a central salt lake.

Most of them aren't strong clues because they have other plausible explanations, including being art production limitations (e.g. not showing plants moving in the wind every frame). But still...

- Lack of waves and tide on the sea, also suggesting lack of wind.
- The sea has risen and fallen before (but not this fast). Without tides, why would it rise and fall at all? A salt lake rises and falls gradually as evaporation overtakes inflow and vice versa.
- The barrenness of the land near the sea, even at the river delta and right along the fresh-water river upstream. This is highly unusual, as I commented on at the time. The cause would most likely be salty soil from relatively recent rises and falls of the salt lake.
- The bad/salty taste of the water. Of course, normal sea water tastes bad too, but Megan's reactions to getting some in her mouth, in retrospect at least, does seem exaggerated compared to how someone familiar with normal sea water would react to getting a mouthful of normal sea water.
- It gets cooler and windier as they climb. Of course, this would be true just about anywhere, so it's hardly a clue, but it's consistent.
- Despite getting cooler and windier and the air seeming thinner (suggesting at least a couple thousand meters of elevation), it never became noticeably windy or uncomfortably cold, even at night. I commented on the strangeness of this several times (as possibly suggesting massive climate warming) especially after it became clear that they weren't at a tropical latitude. Starting in a basin explains it.
- Cuegan's reluctance to attempt to swim in fresh water. Swimmers are a little more buoyant in normal ocean water than in fresh water. The difference is noticeable, but it's not big enough to completely alter basic swimming and floating techniques. If you can swim safely in an ocean, you can almost certainly do so in a river (barring fast current, piranhas, etc.). Salt lake water, though, is very different, allowing people to float safely with no swimming technique at all. "It's extremely dangerous to try to swim in rivers" is a reasonable conclusion for them to have drawn from their likely past experiences with their sea and with their own river.
- The shapes of the land during their ascent. Basically, a series of broad stair-step plateaus at elevations in between the salt lake sea level and the "coastal" plateau at the first survey tower. This is not typical of most hill and mountain landscapes, where even low peaks have peaks. It was hard to tell this for sure from the more or less 2-D views (a plateau might look the same as a flat section of ridge) but in retrospect, things like the vineyard make more sense on wide stair-step plateaus than on some sort of col or ridge line.
- The shape of the ground on the slopes they climbed. There was lot of soil cover and not much exposed rock, compared with most mountain slopes I've seen, including very old eroded mountains like the Appalachians. Soil formation on mountains is slow and it erodes downward; there's almost always less soil farther up. In a basin (whether underwater or exposed), sediment drifts down and washes down from a wide region above.
- The "pretty crumbly" and sandy-looking rocks Cueball noted at the wowterfall. Real sandstone isn't all that crumbly, but compacted sandy sediment might still seem stone-like but erode quickly. At the time, we thought Cueball was overstating how crumbly the rock had to be for the water to cut through it, because he was unaware of geological time scales. But it turns out the wowterfall landscape really wasn't formed in geological time scales, but in a few millennia at most.
Was it possible to figure out the setting from these clues (along with the astronomical information) as a puzzle? Some people did make correct or nearly correct (e.g. the Black Sea) guesses, but no one put all the above bits and pieces together to make a strong case for the Mediterranean basin. I think it might have been solvable, but you'd have to make some fortunate assumptions about things like which of Megan and Cueball's observations are accurate (e.g. how crumbly the surrounding rocks appear from a distance) and which features of the comic images are literal and which are art conventions.
You're missing what to me is the clincher:

In 1412-1417, Cueball tells Megan that the sea (which he tasted earlier, before they left the shore) seemed to be tasting a little fresher than it had in the past.

Another one... Frames 318-320, in which Megan notices the sea level rise and then asks about the river (the only one she knows of at the time). Implying that when the river flows, the sea level rises, but at no other time.


Both good points. I'll see if there are any other contributions (or if I can think of more), and then update the list, and perhaps find a place for it on the wiki.

I'm reluctant, though, to consider any one piece of the evidence a "clincher," let alone "the" clincher. Although Cueball's observation of the water being fresher is consistent with the scenario (especially knowing that the fresher influx would tend to spread on the surface rather than mix in), like all of the other items I listed, it's individually consistent with other scenarios as well (such as an influx of fresh water into a normally salty sea). The observation itself is also not definitive; Cueball himself isn't certain, and he's biased (and aware of that) because he had been talking about rain or river water flowing into the sea as an explanation. It's clearly correct only if we follow the laws of narrative ("it was mentioned, of course it's important") instead of the laws of scientific investigation ("a single biased subjective sample is hardly definitive of anything"). It's an interesting question, given the general philosophy Randall espouses in xkcd, which set of rules he would prefer us to follow here!
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Time after Time...

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby lgw » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:57 pm UTC

jazz14456 wrote:
SinusPi wrote:
jazz14456 wrote:Why are we assuming that Cugan is speaking English?

No we're not, not as a whole, anyway. A pretty common notion, at one point, was to assume they speak "Unglish" (hence USB - Unglish, Squarish, Beanish - when we thought Hairypattabrundlefly still spoke proper Unglish, that is.

brundlefly This came out more wrong than I hoped Hairdo-Hypatia-Rosetta to be brundleflied into, but there it is...

What do our labels of Unglish and Squarish mean? Beanish is the guys with beanie caps.

Another idea, that is interesting even though its very unlikely: what if the Beans weren't actually speaking the same language, or there were multiple languages that we have previously labeled as Beanish? From the view of what you guys just talked about, even if Cugan ARE speaking or aren't speaking our version of English, isn't it possible that the Beans aren't speaking the same ones? It could even be that each Bean is speaking an entirely different language. It seems pretty implausible since they all seem to be communicating.


Unglish is just a name for whatever Cuegan speak, before it's rendered as English for our benefit, since it seems doubtful that it's actually English.

Squarish is the mystery third language that Rosetta is shown as speaking in the diagram scratched in the ground.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby 42 guests » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:58 pm UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:
42 guests wrote:How much salt would have accumulated around Cugan's beach? Would it have been a thin crust, or would it have been enough to cover any sand?

Never been to a hyper-saline location like the Dead Sea, so I don't know how realistic sand would be. Wikipedia shows halite pebbles.

Would be more salt since it is the Mediterranean that has dried up. Can you build castles with damp salt?

This, too, has been discussed. It is likely a mixture of salt and gypsum, not sand. It holds together. It is probably tens of meters thick. All the salt in a salty ocean. Wikipedia will tell you more. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messinian_salinity_crisis



I think the river that the Cuganites get their water from is unlikely to be fresh if it cuts through halite deposits that deep. Seems like it would spread out on a salt flat once it absorbs as much salt as it can.

Perhaps something in my brain's simulator not working just right. What is the link where it was discussed? I would like to see the conclusions.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby capnbuckle » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:00 pm UTC

lgw wrote:
jazz14456 wrote:
SinusPi wrote:
jazz14456 wrote:Why are we assuming that Cugan is speaking English?

No we're not, not as a whole, anyway. A pretty common notion, at one point, was to assume they speak "Unglish" (hence USB - Unglish, Squarish, Beanish - when we thought Hairypattabrundlefly still spoke proper Unglish, that is.

brundlefly This came out more wrong than I hoped Hairdo-Hypatia-Rosetta to be brundleflied into, but there it is...

What do our labels of Unglish and Squarish mean? Beanish is the guys with beanie caps.

Another idea, that is interesting even though its very unlikely: what if the Beans weren't actually speaking the same language, or there were multiple languages that we have previously labeled as Beanish? From the view of what you guys just talked about, even if Cugan ARE speaking or aren't speaking our version of English, isn't it possible that the Beans aren't speaking the same ones? It could even be that each Bean is speaking an entirely different language. It seems pretty implausible since they all seem to be communicating.


Unglish is just a name for whatever Cuegan speak, before it's rendered as English for our benefit, since it seems doubtful that it's actually English.

Squarish is the mystery third language that Rosetta is shown as speaking in the diagram scratched in the ground.


And here's a link to said diagram...

http://xkcd.mscha.org/viewer/2735

The three shapes spoken by the hairy one are beanish, represented by a triangle, unglish, represented by a circle, and squarish...sort of a mystery language represented by the square shape...(although it's almost canted to be a diamond...but someone likened it to the USB interface symbol...so a square it became.)

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby neopifex » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:03 pm UTC

TalkONG
Image
C'mon, let's see what's through here!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Volcano99 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:03 pm UTC

delurkONG

Spoiler:
Image


damn ninjas
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:03 pm UTC

42 guests wrote:I think the river that the Cuganites get their water from is unlikely to be fresh if it cuts through halite deposits that deep. Seems like it would spread out on a salt flat once it absorbs as much salt as it can.

Perhaps something in my brain's simulator not working just right. What is the link where it was discussed? I would like to see the conclusions.

Perhaps, but time has elapsed. This isn't a freshly created environment. The river will have found its level. It has been flowing into the shrinking sea for as much as 1000 years.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby moody7277 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:06 pm UTC

It is remarkable how, it the midst of impending catastrophe, she is still curious about things.

My guess is that the people in the hills weren't making stuff, just raiding a sunken boat that was carrying stuff to a French IKEA. :P
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby jazz14456 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:07 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Rule110 wrote:
NetWeasel wrote:
cryptoengineer wrote:
Rule110 wrote:Possibly relevant to the eternal "how much was planned in advance" question. Here's a list of things in the comic that, in retrospect, are consistent with (and therefore potential clues to) Megan and Cueball climbing out of a deep basin with a central salt lake.

Most of them aren't strong clues because they have other plausible explanations, including being art production limitations (e.g. not showing plants moving in the wind every frame). But still...

- Lack of waves and tide on the sea, also suggesting lack of wind.
- The sea has risen and fallen before (but not this fast). Without tides, why would it rise and fall at all? A salt lake rises and falls gradually as evaporation overtakes inflow and vice versa.
- The barrenness of the land near the sea, even at the river delta and right along the fresh-water river upstream. This is highly unusual, as I commented on at the time. The cause would most likely be salty soil from relatively recent rises and falls of the salt lake.
- The bad/salty taste of the water. Of course, normal sea water tastes bad too, but Megan's reactions to getting some in her mouth, in retrospect at least, does seem exaggerated compared to how someone familiar with normal sea water would react to getting a mouthful of normal sea water.
- It gets cooler and windier as they climb. Of course, this would be true just about anywhere, so it's hardly a clue, but it's consistent.
- Despite getting cooler and windier and the air seeming thinner (suggesting at least a couple thousand meters of elevation), it never became noticeably windy or uncomfortably cold, even at night. I commented on the strangeness of this several times (as possibly suggesting massive climate warming) especially after it became clear that they weren't at a tropical latitude. Starting in a basin explains it.
- Cuegan's reluctance to attempt to swim in fresh water. Swimmers are a little more buoyant in normal ocean water than in fresh water. The difference is noticeable, but it's not big enough to completely alter basic swimming and floating techniques. If you can swim safely in an ocean, you can almost certainly do so in a river (barring fast current, piranhas, etc.). Salt lake water, though, is very different, allowing people to float safely with no swimming technique at all. "It's extremely dangerous to try to swim in rivers" is a reasonable conclusion for them to have drawn from their likely past experiences with their sea and with their own river.
- The shapes of the land during their ascent. Basically, a series of broad stair-step plateaus at elevations in between the salt lake sea level and the "coastal" plateau at the first survey tower. This is not typical of most hill and mountain landscapes, where even low peaks have peaks. It was hard to tell this for sure from the more or less 2-D views (a plateau might look the same as a flat section of ridge) but in retrospect, things like the vineyard make more sense on wide stair-step plateaus than on some sort of col or ridge line.
- The shape of the ground on the slopes they climbed. There was lot of soil cover and not much exposed rock, compared with most mountain slopes I've seen, including very old eroded mountains like the Appalachians. Soil formation on mountains is slow and it erodes downward; there's almost always less soil farther up. In a basin (whether underwater or exposed), sediment drifts down and washes down from a wide region above.
- The "pretty crumbly" and sandy-looking rocks Cueball noted at the wowterfall. Real sandstone isn't all that crumbly, but compacted sandy sediment might still seem stone-like but erode quickly. At the time, we thought Cueball was overstating how crumbly the rock had to be for the water to cut through it, because he was unaware of geological time scales. But it turns out the wowterfall landscape really wasn't formed in geological time scales, but in a few millennia at most.
Was it possible to figure out the setting from these clues (along with the astronomical information) as a puzzle? Some people did make correct or nearly correct (e.g. the Black Sea) guesses, but no one put all the above bits and pieces together to make a strong case for the Mediterranean basin. I think it might have been solvable, but you'd have to make some fortunate assumptions about things like which of Megan and Cueball's observations are accurate (e.g. how crumbly the surrounding rocks appear from a distance) and which features of the comic images are literal and which are art conventions.
You're missing what to me is the clincher:

In 1412-1417, Cueball tells Megan that the sea (which he tasted earlier, before they left the shore) seemed to be tasting a little fresher than it had in the past.

Another one... Frames 318-320, in which Megan notices the sea level rise and then asks about the river (the only one she knows of at the time). Implying that when the river flows, the sea level rises, but at no other time.


Both good points. I'll see if there are any other contributions (or if I can think of more), and then update the list, and perhaps find a place for it on the wiki.

I'm reluctant, though, to consider any one piece of the evidence a "clincher," let alone "the" clincher. Although Cueball's observation of the water being fresher is consistent with the scenario (especially knowing that the fresher influx would tend to spread on the surface rather than mix in), like all of the other items I listed, it's individually consistent with other scenarios as well (such as an influx of fresh water into a normally salty sea). The observation itself is also not definitive; Cueball himself isn't certain, and he's biased (and aware of that) because he had been talking about rain or river water flowing into the sea as an explanation. It's clearly correct only if we follow the laws of narrative ("it was mentioned, of course it's important") instead of the laws of scientific investigation ("a single biased subjective sample is hardly definitive of anything"). It's an interesting question, given the general philosophy Randall espouses in xkcd, which set of rules he would prefer us to follow here!


Did GLR really think about this THIS deeply? I know this is xkcd we are talking about here.... but still, there has to be a point where we are over thinking things. I don't know if we have reached that point, if we will reach that point, or if we have a while ago, but shouldn't we take any thoughts this complex from such subtle (if present) clues with a grain of sand?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby NetWeasel » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:11 pm UTC

Rule110 wrote:
Spoiler:
NetWeasel wrote:
cryptoengineer wrote:
Rule110 wrote:Possibly relevant to the eternal "how much was planned in advance" question. Here's a list of things in the comic that, in retrospect, are consistent with (and therefore potential clues to) Megan and Cueball climbing out of a deep basin with a central salt lake.

Most of them aren't strong clues because they have other plausible explanations, including being art production limitations (e.g. not showing plants moving in the wind every frame). But still...

- Lack of waves and tide on the sea, also suggesting lack of wind.
- The sea has risen and fallen before (but not this fast). Without tides, why would it rise and fall at all? A salt lake rises and falls gradually as evaporation overtakes inflow and vice versa.
- The barrenness of the land near the sea, even at the river delta and right along the fresh-water river upstream. This is highly unusual, as I commented on at the time. The cause would most likely be salty soil from relatively recent rises and falls of the salt lake.
- The bad/salty taste of the water. Of course, normal sea water tastes bad too, but Megan's reactions to getting some in her mouth, in retrospect at least, does seem exaggerated compared to how someone familiar with normal sea water would react to getting a mouthful of normal sea water.
- It gets cooler and windier as they climb. Of course, this would be true just about anywhere, so it's hardly a clue, but it's consistent.
- Despite getting cooler and windier and the air seeming thinner (suggesting at least a couple thousand meters of elevation), it never became noticeably windy or uncomfortably cold, even at night. I commented on the strangeness of this several times (as possibly suggesting massive climate warming) especially after it became clear that they weren't at a tropical latitude. Starting in a basin explains it.
- Cuegan's reluctance to attempt to swim in fresh water. Swimmers are a little more buoyant in normal ocean water than in fresh water. The difference is noticeable, but it's not big enough to completely alter basic swimming and floating techniques. If you can swim safely in an ocean, you can almost certainly do so in a river (barring fast current, piranhas, etc.). Salt lake water, though, is very different, allowing people to float safely with no swimming technique at all. "It's extremely dangerous to try to swim in rivers" is a reasonable conclusion for them to have drawn from their likely past experiences with their sea and with their own river.
- The shapes of the land during their ascent. Basically, a series of broad stair-step plateaus at elevations in between the salt lake sea level and the "coastal" plateau at the first survey tower. This is not typical of most hill and mountain landscapes, where even low peaks have peaks. It was hard to tell this for sure from the more or less 2-D views (a plateau might look the same as a flat section of ridge) but in retrospect, things like the vineyard make more sense on wide stair-step plateaus than on some sort of col or ridge line.
- The shape of the ground on the slopes they climbed. There was lot of soil cover and not much exposed rock, compared with most mountain slopes I've seen, including very old eroded mountains like the Appalachians. Soil formation on mountains is slow and it erodes downward; there's almost always less soil farther up. In a basin (whether underwater or exposed), sediment drifts down and washes down from a wide region above.
- The "pretty crumbly" and sandy-looking rocks Cueball noted at the wowterfall. Real sandstone isn't all that crumbly, but compacted sandy sediment might still seem stone-like but erode quickly. At the time, we thought Cueball was overstating how crumbly the rock had to be for the water to cut through it, because he was unaware of geological time scales. But it turns out the wowterfall landscape really wasn't formed in geological time scales, but in a few millennia at most.
Was it possible to figure out the setting from these clues (along with the astronomical information) as a puzzle? Some people did make correct or nearly correct (e.g. the Black Sea) guesses, but no one put all the above bits and pieces together to make a strong case for the Mediterranean basin. I think it might have been solvable, but you'd have to make some fortunate assumptions about things like which of Megan and Cueball's observations are accurate (e.g. how crumbly the surrounding rocks appear from a distance) and which features of the comic images are literal and which are art conventions.
You're missing what to me is the clincher:

In 1412-1417, Cueball tells Megan that the sea (which he tasted earlier, before they left the shore) seemed to be tasting a little fresher than it had in the past.

Another one... Frames 318-320, in which Megan notices the sea level rise and then asks about the river (the only one she knows of at the time). Implying that when the river flows, the sea level rises, but at no other time.


Both good points. I'll see if there are any other contributions (or if I can think of more), and then update the list, and perhaps find a place for it on the wiki.
I'm reluctant, though, to consider any one piece of the evidence a "clincher," let alone "the" clincher. Although Cueball's observation of the water being fresher is consistent with the scenario (especially knowing that the fresher influx would tend to spread on the surface rather than mix in), like all of the other items I listed, it's individually consistent with other scenarios as well (such as an influx of fresh water into a normally salty sea). The observation itself is also not definitive; Cueball himself isn't certain, and he's biased (and aware of that) because he had been talking about rain or river water flowing into the sea as an explanation. It's clearly correct only if we follow the laws of narrative ("it was mentioned, of course it's important") instead of the laws of scientific investigation ("a single biased subjective sample is hardly definitive of anything"). It's an interesting question, given the general philosophy Randall espouses in xkcd, which set of rules he would prefer us to follow here!

It looks like he is using Mystery Writer format, in which when you look back over it, all the clues are there, and glaringly so, but your first time through you miss them. Such as when everyone was all up in arms over three grains of sand falling off the castle (which we now know wasn't sand) without noticing the river whose length varies(???).
And all the other ones you've mentioned. When looking back, it's obvious... but not when looking forwards.

He has done an excellent job.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby nerdsniped » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:13 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:It is remarkable how, it the midst of impending catastrophe, she is still curious about things.

My guess is that the people in the hills weren't making stuff, just raiding a sunken boat that was carrying stuff to a French IKEA. :P

Perhaps. "I'd love to learn how they make all that stuff" does raise a lot of questions for such a short, innocent sentence.

I think we have confirmation now that the "hill people" knew about the evacuation, and didn't tell the Cueganites. I'm a bit confused by "I don't see anyone", though. I'd think that you'd have to be pretty close to tell whether people are around or not. A mile? Closer? I guess they must already be approaching an occupied section of "the hills", seeing buildings or other evidence of habitation, but no people. Presumably the occupied area of the hills is fairly large; if there was just a single "hill people" village, it seems unlikely that they'd be heading straight through it.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby svenman » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:13 pm UTC

Eutychus wrote:(And I see svenman is nearer to the Château d'If than me. Boohoo!!)

You must be from northern or north-western France then. But don't be sad, at least you're in the same country which I'm not! (Although I guess it won't matter a lot 11,000 years from now.)

Gedeon wrote:Damn, svenman is closer than me... Stuttgart, I presume?

Karlsruhe, actually, but close enough. :-) Your location seems to be somewhere slightly east of Zagreb?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:14 pm UTC

jazz14456 wrote:
Spoiler:
Rule110 wrote:
NetWeasel wrote:
cryptoengineer wrote:
Rule110 wrote:Possibly relevant to the eternal "how much was planned in advance" question. Here's a list of things in the comic that, in retrospect, are consistent with (and therefore potential clues to) Megan and Cueball climbing out of a deep basin with a central salt lake.

Most of them aren't strong clues because they have other plausible explanations, including being art production limitations (e.g. not showing plants moving in the wind every frame). But still...

- Lack of waves and tide on the sea, also suggesting lack of wind.
- The sea has risen and fallen before (but not this fast). Without tides, why would it rise and fall at all? A salt lake rises and falls gradually as evaporation overtakes inflow and vice versa.
- The barrenness of the land near the sea, even at the river delta and right along the fresh-water river upstream. This is highly unusual, as I commented on at the time. The cause would most likely be salty soil from relatively recent rises and falls of the salt lake.
- The bad/salty taste of the water. Of course, normal sea water tastes bad too, but Megan's reactions to getting some in her mouth, in retrospect at least, does seem exaggerated compared to how someone familiar with normal sea water would react to getting a mouthful of normal sea water.
- It gets cooler and windier as they climb. Of course, this would be true just about anywhere, so it's hardly a clue, but it's consistent.
- Despite getting cooler and windier and the air seeming thinner (suggesting at least a couple thousand meters of elevation), it never became noticeably windy or uncomfortably cold, even at night. I commented on the strangeness of this several times (as possibly suggesting massive climate warming) especially after it became clear that they weren't at a tropical latitude. Starting in a basin explains it.
- Cuegan's reluctance to attempt to swim in fresh water. Swimmers are a little more buoyant in normal ocean water than in fresh water. The difference is noticeable, but it's not big enough to completely alter basic swimming and floating techniques. If you can swim safely in an ocean, you can almost certainly do so in a river (barring fast current, piranhas, etc.). Salt lake water, though, is very different, allowing people to float safely with no swimming technique at all. "It's extremely dangerous to try to swim in rivers" is a reasonable conclusion for them to have drawn from their likely past experiences with their sea and with their own river.
- The shapes of the land during their ascent. Basically, a series of broad stair-step plateaus at elevations in between the salt lake sea level and the "coastal" plateau at the first survey tower. This is not typical of most hill and mountain landscapes, where even low peaks have peaks. It was hard to tell this for sure from the more or less 2-D views (a plateau might look the same as a flat section of ridge) but in retrospect, things like the vineyard make more sense on wide stair-step plateaus than on some sort of col or ridge line.
- The shape of the ground on the slopes they climbed. There was lot of soil cover and not much exposed rock, compared with most mountain slopes I've seen, including very old eroded mountains like the Appalachians. Soil formation on mountains is slow and it erodes downward; there's almost always less soil farther up. In a basin (whether underwater or exposed), sediment drifts down and washes down from a wide region above.
- The "pretty crumbly" and sandy-looking rocks Cueball noted at the wowterfall. Real sandstone isn't all that crumbly, but compacted sandy sediment might still seem stone-like but erode quickly. At the time, we thought Cueball was overstating how crumbly the rock had to be for the water to cut through it, because he was unaware of geological time scales. But it turns out the wowterfall landscape really wasn't formed in geological time scales, but in a few millennia at most.
Was it possible to figure out the setting from these clues (along with the astronomical information) as a puzzle? Some people did make correct or nearly correct (e.g. the Black Sea) guesses, but no one put all the above bits and pieces together to make a strong case for the Mediterranean basin. I think it might have been solvable, but you'd have to make some fortunate assumptions about things like which of Megan and Cueball's observations are accurate (e.g. how crumbly the surrounding rocks appear from a distance) and which features of the comic images are literal and which are art conventions.
You're missing what to me is the clincher:

In 1412-1417, Cueball tells Megan that the sea (which he tasted earlier, before they left the shore) seemed to be tasting a little fresher than it had in the past.

Another one... Frames 318-320, in which Megan notices the sea level rise and then asks about the river (the only one she knows of at the time). Implying that when the river flows, the sea level rises, but at no other time.


Both good points. I'll see if there are any other contributions (or if I can think of more), and then update the list, and perhaps find a place for it on the wiki.

I'm reluctant, though, to consider any one piece of the evidence a "clincher," let alone "the" clincher. Although Cueball's observation of the water being fresher is consistent with the scenario (especially knowing that the fresher influx would tend to spread on the surface rather than mix in), like all of the other items I listed, it's individually consistent with other scenarios as well (such as an influx of fresh water into a normally salty sea). The observation itself is also not definitive; Cueball himself isn't certain, and he's biased (and aware of that) because he had been talking about rain or river water flowing into the sea as an explanation. It's clearly correct only if we follow the laws of narrative ("it was mentioned, of course it's important") instead of the laws of scientific investigation ("a single biased subjective sample is hardly definitive of anything"). It's an interesting question, given the general philosophy Randall espouses in xkcd, which set of rules he would prefer us to follow here!


Did GLR really think about this THIS deeply? I know this is xkcd we are talking about here.... but still, there has to be a point where we are over thinking things. I don't know if we have reached that point, if we will reach that point, or if we have a while ago, but shouldn't we take any thoughts this complex from such subtle (if present) clues with a grain of sand?

Master Randall is very clever and very meticulous, which you know if you read xkcd regularly. My own view is that he has worked it all out in detail (maybe moderately fuzzy detail), but the story line at least. He drops hints, he teases the reader. I don't expect that he put it all on a server to be distributed automatically, but that he watches over it a bit.

The mustard at the beginning that has been noted (especially by micha, I think) can be explained by server glitches that showed up when it went live that required some quick intervention to solve. Back when he did Click and Drag we were all in awe. I suspect he said to himself "Self, how will I ever top this?" Here we have the answer.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby f0rmicUla » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:16 pm UTC

Anna-X wrote:(snip) So basically, what could possibly have happened on Earth that would wipe out all this "basic knowledge" but not all of human kind? Even if there were to be some sort of apocalypse that would nuke us back to the stone age, I find it hard to believe that general knowledge, technology wouldn't survive? (snip)

This does remind me of a SF story- I read only one part of a series- where people had hightech but barely understood how it worked, let alone how to build or repair any of the stuff they used. They had exo skeletons and navigation and even the consciousnesses of their ancestors implanted (some of them were incomplete or unstable).
charlie_grumbles wrote:Also, Read Riddley Walker by Russell Hoban. You'll like it. Read it twice. Ponder the ending.

I'll do, someday. I guess it'll be very hard, though. Always a struggle for me to read non-german literature, esp when it'so playful language-wise. I'm currently struggling with "Canticle for Leibowitz". Maybe you, dear charlie, have an idea what I was reading? It seems like you read some SF.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby ttscp » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:22 pm UTC

jazz14456 wrote:
Spoiler:
Rule110 wrote:
NetWeasel wrote:
cryptoengineer wrote:
Rule110 wrote:Possibly relevant to the eternal "how much was planned in advance" question. Here's a list of things in the comic that, in retrospect, are consistent with (and therefore potential clues to) Megan and Cueball climbing out of a deep basin with a central salt lake.

Most of them aren't strong clues because they have other plausible explanations, including being art production limitations (e.g. not showing plants moving in the wind every frame). But still...

- Lack of waves and tide on the sea, also suggesting lack of wind.
- The sea has risen and fallen before (but not this fast). Without tides, why would it rise and fall at all? A salt lake rises and falls gradually as evaporation overtakes inflow and vice versa.
- The barrenness of the land near the sea, even at the river delta and right along the fresh-water river upstream. This is highly unusual, as I commented on at the time. The cause would most likely be salty soil from relatively recent rises and falls of the salt lake.
- The bad/salty taste of the water. Of course, normal sea water tastes bad too, but Megan's reactions to getting some in her mouth, in retrospect at least, does seem exaggerated compared to how someone familiar with normal sea water would react to getting a mouthful of normal sea water.
- It gets cooler and windier as they climb. Of course, this would be true just about anywhere, so it's hardly a clue, but it's consistent.
- Despite getting cooler and windier and the air seeming thinner (suggesting at least a couple thousand meters of elevation), it never became noticeably windy or uncomfortably cold, even at night. I commented on the strangeness of this several times (as possibly suggesting massive climate warming) especially after it became clear that they weren't at a tropical latitude. Starting in a basin explains it.
- Cuegan's reluctance to attempt to swim in fresh water. Swimmers are a little more buoyant in normal ocean water than in fresh water. The difference is noticeable, but it's not big enough to completely alter basic swimming and floating techniques. If you can swim safely in an ocean, you can almost certainly do so in a river (barring fast current, piranhas, etc.). Salt lake water, though, is very different, allowing people to float safely with no swimming technique at all. "It's extremely dangerous to try to swim in rivers" is a reasonable conclusion for them to have drawn from their likely past experiences with their sea and with their own river.
- The shapes of the land during their ascent. Basically, a series of broad stair-step plateaus at elevations in between the salt lake sea level and the "coastal" plateau at the first survey tower. This is not typical of most hill and mountain landscapes, where even low peaks have peaks. It was hard to tell this for sure from the more or less 2-D views (a plateau might look the same as a flat section of ridge) but in retrospect, things like the vineyard make more sense on wide stair-step plateaus than on some sort of col or ridge line.
- The shape of the ground on the slopes they climbed. There was lot of soil cover and not much exposed rock, compared with most mountain slopes I've seen, including very old eroded mountains like the Appalachians. Soil formation on mountains is slow and it erodes downward; there's almost always less soil farther up. In a basin (whether underwater or exposed), sediment drifts down and washes down from a wide region above.
- The "pretty crumbly" and sandy-looking rocks Cueball noted at the wowterfall. Real sandstone isn't all that crumbly, but compacted sandy sediment might still seem stone-like but erode quickly. At the time, we thought Cueball was overstating how crumbly the rock had to be for the water to cut through it, because he was unaware of geological time scales. But it turns out the wowterfall landscape really wasn't formed in geological time scales, but in a few millennia at most.
Was it possible to figure out the setting from these clues (along with the astronomical information) as a puzzle? Some people did make correct or nearly correct (e.g. the Black Sea) guesses, but no one put all the above bits and pieces together to make a strong case for the Mediterranean basin. I think it might have been solvable, but you'd have to make some fortunate assumptions about things like which of Megan and Cueball's observations are accurate (e.g. how crumbly the surrounding rocks appear from a distance) and which features of the comic images are literal and which are art conventions.
You're missing what to me is the clincher:

In 1412-1417, Cueball tells Megan that the sea (which he tasted earlier, before they left the shore) seemed to be tasting a little fresher than it had in the past.

Another one... Frames 318-320, in which Megan notices the sea level rise and then asks about the river (the only one she knows of at the time). Implying that when the river flows, the sea level rises, but at no other time.


Both good points. I'll see if there are any other contributions (or if I can think of more), and then update the list, and perhaps find a place for it on the wiki.

I'm reluctant, though, to consider any one piece of the evidence a "clincher," let alone "the" clincher. Although Cueball's observation of the water being fresher is consistent with the scenario (especially knowing that the fresher influx would tend to spread on the surface rather than mix in), like all of the other items I listed, it's individually consistent with other scenarios as well (such as an influx of fresh water into a normally salty sea). The observation itself is also not definitive; Cueball himself isn't certain, and he's biased (and aware of that) because he had been talking about rain or river water flowing into the sea as an explanation. It's clearly correct only if we follow the laws of narrative ("it was mentioned, of course it's important") instead of the laws of scientific investigation ("a single biased subjective sample is hardly definitive of anything"). It's an interesting question, given the general philosophy Randall espouses in xkcd, which set of rules he would prefer us to follow here!


Did GLR really think about this THIS deeply? I know this is xkcd we are talking about here.... but still, there has to be a point where we are over thinking things. I don't know if we have reached that point, if we will reach that point, or if we have a while ago, but shouldn't we take any thoughts this complex from such subtle (if present) clues with a grain of sand?

Most of Rule110's items are the kind of thing any author puts in a story. Once the author has decided on where the story is taking place, those details are almost automatic.

If you want to look at obsessive attention to detail look at the astronomy during the long night or the topographical map of the Meditteranean.

The astronomy otters were able to match the constellations and planets to the sky on 10 Apr 13291. GLR kept the sky rotating for quite a few frames, bringing in more stars, consistent with the view that he started with.

The topographical map of the Mediterranean matches very closely with the Rosetta's map.

On the other hand, one of the otter's sigs (SBN?) questions whether we are overthinking or overanalyzing things.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby nerdsniped » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:24 pm UTC

f0rmicUla wrote:
Anna-X wrote:(snip) So basically, what could possibly have happened on Earth that would wipe out all this "basic knowledge" but not all of human kind? Even if there were to be some sort of apocalypse that would nuke us back to the stone age, I find it hard to believe that general knowledge, technology wouldn't survive? (snip)

This does remind me of a SF story- I read only one part of a series- where people had hightech but barely understood how it worked, let alone how to build or repair any of the stuff they used. They had exo skeletons and navigation and even the consciousnesses of their ancestors implanted (some of them were incomplete or unstable).
charlie_grumbles wrote:Also, Read Riddley Walker by Russell Hoban. You'll like it. Read it twice. Ponder the ending.

I'll do, someday. I guess it'll be very hard, though. Always a struggle for me to read non-german literature, esp when it'so playful language-wise. I'm currently struggling with "Canticle for Leibowitz". Maybe you, dear charlie, have an idea what I was reading? It seems like you read some SF.

Maybe Great Sky River by Gregory Benford?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:25 pm UTC

f0rmicUla wrote:
charlie_grumbles wrote:Also, Read Riddley Walker by Russell Hoban. You'll like it. Read it twice. Ponder the ending.

I'll do, someday. I guess it'll be very hard, though. Always a struggle for me to read non-german literature, esp when it'so playful language-wise. I'm currently struggling with "Canticle for Leibowitz". Maybe you, dear charlie, have an idea what I was reading? It seems like you read some SF.

Ah yes, Riddley Walker would be a pretty steep climb for a non native speaker. It is rough going even for those who do learned it at their mother's breast. I can't imagine a translation that keeps the flavor of the language, though the power of the story could still come through. I did like Canticle and his follow up (which is hard to find, but worth the try). I read a lot of sci fy. I especially like Gene Wolfe and others who can build a complex world and not tell me (too much) about it. It is like 1190, in fact, where we get the slow reveal. Send a PM if you want to talk books.
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Random832
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Random832 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:25 pm UTC

42 guests wrote:Can you build castles with damp salt?


Has anyone attempted this experiment? I have acquired a container of Morton's Natural Sea Salt, though I won't actually do anything with it until probably later this week if I can get my brother to take pictures (I don't have a digital camera, and if I did I wouldn't want to handle it with wet salty hands)

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charlie_grumbles
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:30 pm UTC

Random832 wrote:
42 guests wrote:Can you build castles with damp salt?


Has anyone attempted this experiment? I have acquired a container of Morton's Natural Sea Salt, though I won't actually do anything with it until probably later this week if I can get my brother to take pictures (I don't have a digital camera, and if I did I wouldn't want to handle it with wet salty hands)

This isn't refined salt we have here. But see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wieliczka_Salt_Mine. A truly amazing place.
Lurking. Watching. Thinking. Writing. Waiting.
-- Charlie Grumbles

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CasCat
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby CasCat » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:32 pm UTC

NetWeasel wrote:It looks like he is using Mystery Writer format, in which when you look back over it, all the clues are there, and glaringly so, but your first time through you miss them. Such as when everyone was all up in arms over three grains of sand falling off the castle (which we now know wasn't sand) without noticing the river whose length varies(???).
And all the other ones you've mentioned. When looking back, it's obvious... but not when looking forwards.

He has done an excellent job.


I do remember discussion on the OTT at the time about seasonal rivers, that flow part of the year and dry up the rest of the year.

moody7277 wrote:It is remarkable how, it the midst of impending catastrophe, she is still curious about things.


I love Megan's curiosity. If not her tendency towards kleptomania. :wink: (The map, I agree, was justified under the circumstances, especially if she manages to give it back.)

nerdsniped wrote:I think we have confirmation now that the "hill people" knew about the evacuation, and didn't tell the Cueganites. I'm a bit confused by "I don't see anyone", though. I'd think that you'd have to be pretty close to tell whether people are around or not. A mile? Closer? I guess they must already be approaching an occupied section of "the hills", seeing buildings or other evidence of habitation, but no people. Presumably the occupied area of the hills is fairly large; if there was just a single "hill people" village, it seems unlikely that they'd be heading straight through it.


I agree that the hill people apparently didn't tell the Forty (at least, not until after Cuegan left, which would be cutting things pretty fine) but on further consideration I'm not absolutely sure it was malicious. "Oh, no! Run for the mountains!" (with no thought at all about anyone else). Of course, in order of increasing malice, it could also have been "Oh, those funny people with Beanies are telling everyone, so we don't need to worry about sending word to those Shore people" or even "We'd better not tell those nasty Shore people; after all, they steal anything that isn't nailed down..."
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Random832
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Random832 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:37 pm UTC

neopifex wrote:TalkONG


The hill people knew. Or they figured it out themselves, I guess.

At the back of my mind, I've been wondering if the beanie people told the hill people and the hill people didn't tell them about the Cuegan people, out of spite.

Also, apparently the hill people are a somewhat advanced civilization.


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