1190: "Time"

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby higgs-boson » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:00 pm UTC

WADE IN THE WATONG...?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Dracomax » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:06 pm UTC

This will probably not end well.

It's a classic "it seemed like a good idea at the time" scenario.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby NetWeasel » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:10 pm UTC

rvloon wrote:I think someone else said that this has the feeling of a really long, drawn-out version of a what-if.

I think I just figured out where he got the idea...
We've just been through a four month long round of the cruelest GeoGuesser ever.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mindonner » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:11 pm UTC

Hard to tell exactly until the latest frame is picked up by Geekwagon, but the rate of water-level rise does not look too bad. They might be OK. At least, if their natural clumsiness does not pick this moment to rear its head again...

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby k.bookbinder » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:12 pm UTC

Dracomax wrote:This will probably not end well.

It's a classic "it seemed like a good idea at the time" scenario.


Agreed. I have a very bad feeling about this. I have to wonder if they will attempt to use ropes to aid the crossing. And will the ropes be strong enough. Although, with a rapidly "rising tide" it may make the crossing easier than if they were crossing a rapid river. Oh do be careful Cuegan!
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby kasmeneo » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:16 pm UTC

Dracomax wrote:This will probably not end well.
It's a classic "it seemed like a good idea at the time" scenario.


To me it doesn't look like a good idea, even now. Even if the sea is salty and swimming/floating is easier - considering the sea they know is already somewhat diluted and less salty, it might be difficult to get back.

And even wading through more than knee-deep water is quite a strain. Especially with a current (tidal or similar, which is what we have here).
It's cooler up here.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:20 pm UTC

Discussion about energy harvesting from a dam in the Straghts. Spoilerd for seaishness
Spoiler:
charlie_grumbles wrote:Sorry about the size of this. There are three parts. I've saved the best for last.

Neil_Boekend wrote:
Neil_Boekend wrote:
charlie_grumbles wrote:
Neil_Boekend wrote:How come the salty water is flowing back now? There must be some effect we are not considering.

Also, if the salinity of the Mediterranean sea was increased slowly enough it might not effect sealife too much. A higher salinity would mean the return pipe doesn't have to be 1 km deep.


The water is flowing west because it is heavier than the water there (more dense). So the water in the atlantic tends to float over the denser water (i.e. east) and the denser water tends to sink under the lighter water to its west. In effect, the denser water just flows downhill as it would in air, but not as quickly since it is lighter water and not very much lighter air to the west.

Do you want to bet an ecosystem on your guess about the rate of increase of salinity? Especially if you don't allow for in and outmigration of the wildlife?

Yes, higher salinity would been less depth, but it would have to be a lot to be very significant and then the ecosystem dies.

I see now how the water flows. It's flowing because the height difference now isn't 2 meters. It's a bit less. By definition it's enough less that the backflow works with the 900m height difference there is (that's almost the required 1 km).

I don't understand your 2m reference. The height difference is actually 300m at the sill, not 900.

I am clumsy with words today. The straights are 900 meters deep at the deepest point. I assume that that's where the backflow happens.
The 2 meter came from an early post. It was a result from a calculation of the salinity difference. If you want a level difference of 2 meter between both sides of the dam then you need a backflow pipe 1 km deep.
By the way: nobody said anything about blocking migration. The backflow pipe would be big enough for wildlife to swim to the atlantic and a fish ladder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_ladder) of 1.5 meters of height wouldn't be a problem. Even at the massive scale required for large fishes
charlie_grumbles wrote:
Neil_Boekend wrote:I wouldn't simply test the higher salinity in the Mediterranean. I'd start with an extensive research into the wildlife and the salinity it can accept without trouble. Then I'd increase the salinity to somewhere below that level. The increased salinity would force the wildlife to accept a higher salinity. Continuing research would indicate an allowed salinity. The salinity must be increased slowly to force the evolution.

I'd increase the salinity by building the dam, with a backflow hole on the bedrock. With the seawater level difference between the Atlantic and the Mediterranean the salinity level can be regulated.

Of course there are some snags.

Actually, I think it is all "snags". You are messing with things poorly understood with vast consequences. Again, hubris. What could possibly go wrong if we just insert a few genes into, say corn? Those genes couldn't possibly transfer to other food crops. (I was about to add "could they", but realized that question wasn't asked.

That was a known effect that they just ignored. I can't imagine that there were no biologists at Mosanta that said "Hey that may be a bad plan because..". They were silenced because of greed. Probably usually with money.
charlie_grumbles wrote:
Neil_Boekend wrote:*Greed may drive the required electrical output up, thus the level difference and thus the salinity. That may kill the project due to mass death in the Mediterranean.
*Century plans are not the forte of political parties that need to produce results before the next election. (Don't get me wrong on that one.)

Again, sorry to be Cassandra, but the world is still only a poorly understood thing, as smart as we think we are. People over the ages have thought so too and introduced pests into different ecosystems with the same reasoning: I can control this. Nothing could possibly go wrong. I understand it thoroughly. Wrong, Wrong, and wrong again.

There is a vast difference between introducing a new species into an environment not able to handle it and carefully and slowly changing the salinity of a sea. Slowly changing salinity is something evolution can work with. A new species that is completely different from what's there is much bigger.
Even fast and uncontrolled salinity has been proven to be possible (albeit lowering salinity instead of increasing it): the Ijsselmeer (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=ijsselmeer&hl=en&ll=52.787815,5.369568&spn=1.12288,2.469177&sll=51.842867,5.833131&sspn=0.149751,0.308647&t=h&hnear=IJsselmeer&z=9)is a thriving breeding ground for fishes. It lives, in a good way. It was a sea, until we dammed it off in 1932. Now it's salinity is low.
By the way: There is no way I could pull this off, because of the second snag. There is no way I would pull this off, because of the first snag.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby charlie_grumbles » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:21 pm UTC

Speculation based, I hope, on evidence from the OTC and what we know historically.

GLR seems to have settled on an intermediate scenario with more gentle inflows, at least in the short term. This might be because the blockage hasn't completely given way yet. The beanies probably don't have an accurate idea of when that will be and so assume the worst to be safe.

But it might also be that the sea level outside is lower, through glaciation, or significant water loss in the Antares incident (assuming that is even possible). If there is glaciation, the climate would be cooler. Perhaps the beanies wear hats because on the level of the Castle the climate is cold, not warm. This would make it cooler, perhaps livable at the bottom of the sink.

At the last glacial max, the sea levels might have been 135m lower than now. This time they might be lower, as our global warming currently being experienced could, conceivably, set of an oscillatory pattern making periods of hot and cold beyond what has been experienced in the past. (Yes, I said it was speculation.)

If the sea level is 200m lower that makes the depth of the sill, relative to the Atlantic, only 130m down, not 330. This would change the rate of inflow by a lot, assuming that the geology hasn't changed much. But it doesn't suggest a reason the Beanies think that the basin will fill "in days."

I don't see evidence in the conversations in the OTC that the beanies caused the problem. The queen/librarian talks about "a Rock". Only that they tried to shore it up. See the conversation stream on the wiki. There may have been seismic activity or a rock from space a thousand years ago.

I'm guessing that all will be well after a period of extreme danger. We will be sitting on the edge of our leopards for wix.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Dracomax » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:31 pm UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:Speculation based, I hope, on evidence from the OTC and what we know historically.

GLR seems to have settled on an intermediate scenario with more gentle inflows, at least in the short term. This might be because the blockage hasn't completely given way yet. The beanies probably don't have an accurate idea of when that will be and so assume the worst to be safe.

But it might also be that the sea level outside is lower, through glaciation, or significant water loss in the Antares incident (assuming that is even possible). If there is glaciation, the climate would be cooler. Perhaps the beanies wear hats because on the level of the Castle the climate is cold, not warm. This would make it cooler, perhaps livable at the bottom of the sink.

At the last glacial max, the sea levels might have been 135m lower than now. This time they might be lower, as our global warming currently being experienced could, conceivably, set of an oscillatory pattern making periods of hot and cold beyond what has been experienced in the past. (Yes, I said it was speculation.)

If the sea level is 200m lower that makes the depth of the sill, relative to the Atlantic, only 130m down, not 330. This would change the rate of inflow by a lot, assuming that the geology hasn't changed much. But it doesn't suggest a reason the Beanies think that the basin will fill "in days."

I don't see evidence in the conversations in the OTC that the beanies caused the problem. The queen/librarian talks about "a Rock". Only that they tried to shore it up. See the conversation stream on the wiki. There may have been seismic activity or a rock from space a thousand years ago.

I'm guessing that all will be well after a period of extreme danger. We will be sitting on the edge of our leopards for wix.

Speaking of which, I suspect that Cuegan will have to fight the bobcat-molpy again soon, atop a flaming waterfall in order to save their people. Why a flaming waterfall? Because it would be an awesome climax to the whole "saving our people" thing. and would look really cool.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby CasCat » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:32 pm UTC

Kinjion wrote:De-lurking now, just so I can say "well, I was around before Cuegan returned to the sea" at some time in the future.

The subtleties of this thread still escape me, so if I'm missing the mark on any de-lurking etiquette right now, my apologies :lol:


Blindposting while ketchupping, but throwing first-post forward while I'm at it. Welcome, Kinjion!
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:41 pm UTC

charlie_grumbles wrote:Speculation based, I hope, on evidence from the OTC and what we know historically.

GLR seems to have settled on an intermediate scenario with more gentle inflows, at least in the short term. This might be because the blockage hasn't completely given way yet. The beanies probably don't have an accurate idea of when that will be and so assume the worst to be safe.


Rise from G 3012->3014 is 1 pixel high. Cueball is around 35 pixels high, if we assume he is around 180 cm, the rise is about 5 cm +/- 2 cm. If we assume the time difference between frames is a minute or two, this gives us daily water rise from 20 to 100 m. That is not gentle at all. :shock:

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby higgs-boson » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:43 pm UTC

k.bookbinder wrote:
Dracomax wrote:This will probably not end well.

It's a classic "it seemed like a good idea at the time" scenario.


Agreed. I have a very bad feeling about this. I have to wonder if they will attempt to use ropes to aid the crossing. And will the ropes be strong enough. Although, with a rapidly "rising tide" it may make the crossing easier than if they were crossing a rapid river. Oh do be careful Cuegan!


You don't have to force-invoke "Everybody Can Die", do you.
It is, of course, "Always Close".

Growl.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby xpatiate » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:44 pm UTC

k.bookbinder wrote:Agreed. I have a very bad feeling about this. I have to wonder if they will attempt to use ropes to aid the crossing. And will the ropes be strong enough.


I was just thinking the exact same thing. Hold on Megan or you'll fall!

charlie_grumbles wrote:We will be sitting on the edge of our leopards for wix.


How very Dionysian of us :)

Spoiler:
Image

So that's who was growing all those grapes!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby ahecht » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:48 pm UTC

That doesn't seem like "good thinking" at all!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby thegreger » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:51 pm UTC

Just convinced a friend of mine to start a fast blitz from page one! He missed out on what has happened so far, and I feel that the thread is the only way to properly understand the vastness of this thing.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Dracomax » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:53 pm UTC

thegreger wrote:Just convinced a friend of mine to start a fast blitz from page one! He missed out on what has happened so far, and I feel that the thread is the only way to properly understand the vastness of this thing.

That may just be cruel and unusual. Well, given this thread, unusual has lost all meaning but...

Making them blitz the entire thing is a bit much.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby thegreger » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:55 pm UTC

Dracomax wrote:
thegreger wrote:Just convinced a friend of mine to start a fast blitz from page one! He missed out on what has happened so far, and I feel that the thread is the only way to properly understand the vastness of this thing.

That may just be cruel and unusual. Well, given this thread, unusual has lost all meaning but...

Making them blitz the entire thing is a bit much.


Well, I did advice him to just skim through it all, not spending more than 30-60 seconds on each page. And he's a PhD student, he has years to spend on it!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Kieryn » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:56 pm UTC

k.bookbinder wrote:
Dracomax wrote:This will probably not end well.

It's a classic "it seemed like a good idea at the time" scenario.


Agreed. I have a very bad feeling about this. I have to wonder if they will attempt to use ropes to aid the crossing. And will the ropes be strong enough. Although, with a rapidly "rising tide" it may make the crossing easier than if they were crossing a rapid river. Oh do be careful Cuegan!


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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Nilpferdschaf » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:58 pm UTC

higgs-boson wrote:
k.bookbinder wrote:
Dracomax wrote:This will probably not end well.

It's a classic "it seemed like a good idea at the time" scenario.


Agreed. I have a very bad feeling about this. I have to wonder if they will attempt to use ropes to aid the crossing. And will the ropes be strong enough. Although, with a rapidly "rising tide" it may make the crossing easier than if they were crossing a rapid river. Oh do be careful Cuegan!


You don't have to force-invoke "Everybody Can Die", do you.
It is, of course, "Always Close".

Growl.


I think the purpose of the incredibly slow frame rate is to have everyone who's following the comic think in all possible directions based on the previous frames. He gives us time to figure out the best and worst possible outcome of every miniscule plotline. We're basically a narrative device he's using to generate tension.

The only logical conclusion is OH MY GOD, THEY'RE GOING TO DIE, THEY DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THE SALINITY MUST HAVE CHANGED. THEY'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO SWIM IN IT! THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT SWIMMING IS, THE ONLY KNOW HOW TO FLOAT!

So be a good narrative device and PANIC ALREADY! :)

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby higgs-boson » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:00 pm UTC

GOOD THINKONG OR GOOD SINKONG?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby lunait » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:02 pm UTC

thegreger wrote:Just convinced a friend of mine to start a fast blitz from page one! He missed out on what has happened so far, and I feel that the thread is the only way to properly understand the vastness of this thing.

I'm the friend he's talking about. Just registered on the forums. I read xkcd regularly but haven't kept up to date with this particular comic since it started.

Commencing blitz in 3, 2, 1, ...

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mindonner » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:02 pm UTC

OH MY GOD THEY'RE GOING TO DIE!!!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Montov » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:03 pm UTC

He is going to taste the water.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Angelastic » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:03 pm UTC

Nilpferdschaf wrote:The only logical conclusion is OH MY GOD, THEY'RE GOING TO DIE, THEY DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THE SALINITY MUST HAVE CHANGED. THEY'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO SWIM IN IT! THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT SWIMMING IS, THE ONLY KNOW HOW TO FLOAT!

THEY'RE NOT EVEN AFRAID OF THE SEA! THEY THOUGHT THEY WOULD ONLY LOSE THEIR HOMES! THEY THINK THEY WILL JUST FLOAT UP A FEW km AND THEN PADDLE TO SHORE! :o :cry:
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Nilpferdschaf » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:04 pm UTC

higgs-boson wrote:GOOD THINKONG OR GOOD SINKONG?
Spoiler:
Image


Must be the change in salinity, he feels heavier than usual. What's Megan looking at? It looks like she spotted something in the water.

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:05 pm UTC

higgs-boson wrote:GOOD THINKONG OR GOOD SINKONG?
Spoiler:
Image

Those are the tentackes of the Kaiju that broke through the Wall at the Straights. Run Queball, RUN! You're all going to DIE! Hide in the Alps. Build Jaegers! Nuke the basters while they cross the Straights!
Nilpferdschaf wrote:So be a good narrative device and PANIC ALREADY! :)

ok.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby xpatiate » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:05 pm UTC

Is that Chekhov's gun Cueball is getting out of his backpack?

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Gedeon » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:06 pm UTC

Angelastic wrote:
Nilpferdschaf wrote:The only logical conclusion is OH MY GOD, THEY'RE GOING TO DIE, THEY DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THE SALINITY MUST HAVE CHANGED. THEY'LL NEVER BE ABLE TO SWIM IN IT! THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT SWIMMING IS, THE ONLY KNOW HOW TO FLOAT!

THEY'RE NOT EVEN AFRAID OF THE SEA! THEY THOUGHT THEY WOULD ONLY LOSE THEIR HOMES! THEY THINK THEY WILL JUST FLOAT UP A FEW km AND THEN PADDLE TO SHORE! :o :cry:


THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW THEY ARE TWO DIMENSIONAL!!!!!111 AND TRAPPED IN FRAMES

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mindonner » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:07 pm UTC

They don't know about salinity. They don't know about tides. They need to stop mucking about and

Spoiler:
RUN!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby CasCat » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:13 pm UTC

thegreger wrote:Just convinced a friend of mine to start a fast blitz from page one! He missed out on what has happened so far, and I feel that the thread is the only way to properly understand the vastness of this thing.


You do realize that, assuming your friend is either employed or going to school, that it'll take your friend about two [heresy] weeks [/heresy] to do this, don't you? More, if page traffic stays as high as it's been?
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:14 pm UTC

There is no new What if yet. Randall has died and we are only watching the frames he put on his server before he died
Mikeski wrote:A "What If" update is never late. Nor is it early. It is posted precisely when it should be.

patzer's signature wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:I'm being quoted too much!

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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby higgs-boson » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:15 pm UTC

I have encountered several devastating problems on a mashup based on this:
Image
(try to draw gnawed legs on a stick figure)


Redundancy:
Spoiler:
dumbwaystodie.png
dumbwaystodie.png (26.83 KiB) Viewed 9513 times
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby CasCat » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:16 pm UTC

Neil_Boekend wrote:There is no new What if yet. Randall has died and we are only watching the frames he put on his server before he died


But he'll just take a page from YOU, and keep working anyway! :mrgreen:
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Eutychus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:19 pm UTC

Yup, I think the salinity theorists are right about th<glub>
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby cellocgw » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:20 pm UTC

luckylure.jpg
Just happened to find this, stuck to the side of our stove vent hood. I don't know its origin, but clearly it suggests some higher intelligence in large meowlpies.
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Dracomax » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:21 pm UTC

CasCat wrote:
thegreger wrote:Just convinced a friend of mine to start a fast blitz from page one! He missed out on what has happened so far, and I feel that the thread is the only way to properly understand the vastness of this thing.


You do realize that, assuming your friend is either employed or going to school, that it'll take your friend about two [heresy] weeks [/heresy] to do this, don't you? More, if page traffic stays as high as it's been?

On average, I figured out a Wip ago or so that you need to read approximatly 10 pages a day just to keep up with what is added. You must read more than 10 pages each day to begin to catch up. reading at 20 pages a day it would take more than 100 days to catch up.
“have i gone mad?
im afraid so, but let me tell you something, the best people usualy are.”
― Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

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mikro2nd
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby mikro2nd » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:22 pm UTC

Neil_Boekend wrote:There is no new What if yet. Randall has died and we are only watching the frames he put on his server before he died

Thus ends time.

ftfy
One world, one soul
Time pass, the river rolls

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cellocgw
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby cellocgw » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:24 pm UTC

Montov wrote:He is going to taste the water.


Followed by his exclaiming, " Oh my God, It's full of stars!"

Or maybe ,"Mmmmm, chocolate."
https://app.box.com/witthoftresume
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"The Planck length is 3.81779e-33 picas." -- keithl
" Earth weighs almost exactly π milliJupiters" -- what-if #146, note 7

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Neil_Boekend
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:27 pm UTC

CasCat wrote:
Neil_Boekend wrote:There is no new What if yet. Randall has died and we are only watching the frames he put on his server before he died


But he'll just take a page from YOU, and keep working anyway! :mrgreen:

Sadly He isn't as addicted to the OTT as I am, since He doesn't read the forums. It takes a powerful connection to get back.
Spoiler:
It was just meant to increase the panicking and help people obeying the request
Nilpferdschaf wrote:So be a good narrative device and PANIC ALREADY! :)
The What If forum topic is usually made a bit before 3:00 UTC and it's 1:26 UTC now so it's a bit early to panic. Unless I messed my research up.
Mikeski wrote:A "What If" update is never late. Nor is it early. It is posted precisely when it should be.

patzer's signature wrote:
flicky1991 wrote:I'm being quoted too much!

he/him/his

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thegreger
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Re: 1190: "Time"

Postby thegreger » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:29 pm UTC

Dracomax wrote:
CasCat wrote:
thegreger wrote:Just convinced a friend of mine to start a fast blitz from page one! He missed out on what has happened so far, and I feel that the thread is the only way to properly understand the vastness of this thing.


You do realize that, assuming your friend is either employed or going to school, that it'll take your friend about two [heresy] weeks [/heresy] to do this, don't you? More, if page traffic stays as high as it's been?

On average, I figured out a Wip ago or so that you need to read approximatly 10 pages a day just to keep up with what is added. You must read more than 10 pages each day to begin to catch up. reading at 20 pages a day it would take more than 100 days to catch up.


[lazy heresy tag]I think that 10 pages a day is quite a low number, if one is only skimming through it the way one would do with a newspaper. I tried re-reading the first 5 or 10 pages, and I think that an estimate of 30-60 seconds per page is enough to understand what's going on, and understand most details and in-jokes of this thread. In that case, the entire thread would currently take 10-20 hours (slightly more due to the thread growing, but the pace is much lower now than it used to be). Even though you wouldn't catch as much with that reading style as you would by reading it carefully, I think that spending two hours every evening for the next five or ten days is by far a better way of gaining an appreciation of the OTC and the OTT than simply watching a full gif as a movie being played out.[/lazy heresy tag]

Edit: Sincerely hope that no-one caught the spelling error I just corrected...
Last edited by thegreger on Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:46 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.


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