Police misbehavior thread

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Forest Goose
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Forest Goose » Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:58 pm UTC

I don't have a citation, so could very well be wrong. But, in any situation I can think of where an officer should shoot is one in which it would be risky just to injure. Police can't shoot you because you are fleeing, if they have a reason to shoot, the reason should be that you are a legitimate threat. If someone has a weapon, shooting them in the feet means they can still shoot at you- and it's going to be a harder shot to make. Essentially, if they shouldn't be shooting to kill, should they really be shooting in that instance?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby skeptical scientist » Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:13 pm UTC

Forest Goose wrote:I don't have a citation, so could very well be wrong. But, in any situation I can think of where an officer should shoot is one in which it would be risky just to injure. Police can't shoot you because you are fleeing, if they have a reason to shoot, the reason should be that you are a legitimate threat. If someone has a weapon, shooting them in the feet means they can still shoot at you- and it's going to be a harder shot to make. Essentially, if they shouldn't be shooting to kill, should they really be shooting in that instance?

I've also heard that you should never shoot to wound for this reason. Firearms self-defense generally involves aiming for center-of-mass.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby bentheimmigrant » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:28 pm UTC

Forest Goose wrote:I don't have a citation, so could very well be wrong. But, in any situation I can think of where an officer should shoot is one in which it would be risky just to injure. Police can't shoot you because you are fleeing, if they have a reason to shoot, the reason should be that you are a legitimate threat. If someone has a weapon, shooting them in the feet means they can still shoot at you- and it's going to be a harder shot to make. Essentially, if they shouldn't be shooting to kill, should they really be shooting in that instance?

Well, we had an example of an officer shooting a fleeing person, and the situation calling for him to aim for the feet... just the other day.

I'm skeptical of all this talk of people presenting a major threat after being shot. Seems to me I'd grab the hole in my leg. But I understand that the general consensus might be to shoot to kill, though this brings us back to the more important point: if the officer knew he would shoot to kill, he should have done much more to establish the level of threat.

Anyway. All of this is needless. The point is that the officer did not even try to establish the level of threat. He was completely negligent and put himself in a situation where he killed a child. Blaming the kid for owning a perfectly legal toy is wrong. The cop handled it wrong in 18 different ways, and now he's got blood on his hands.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby skeptical scientist » Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:13 pm UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:Blaming the kid for owning a perfectly legal toy is wrong.

It was not a perfectly legal toy. It is likely that the "friend" who gave Andy Lopez the rifle also committed a crime.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:34 am UTC

The question here is not was he negligent. For me it is does it count as police misbehavior? In the broadest sense I say no. We gave him a gun and set the situation up. Our fear of crime has given us a police force which is heavily armed, with a mindset which will lead to these type of events. In addition allow toys which every year are more realistic. It isn't the kids fault, it is the toy manufactuer who sells the toy.


If you wish to use non leathal force, get rid of guns. They are not wounding machines, wounding is a happy accident dictated by chance. They are killing machines. Hit a man in the leg and hit a bone and you might stop him, you would certainly risk crippling him for life. When a gunman, no matter who, fires 8 rounds, he is hoping that 1 hits. Go to a range and fire off 8 rounds quickly, without lots of practice those 8 will be all over the place. When the autospy is released it will be sickenly interesting to see how many of the rounds would have killed him.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby skeptical scientist » Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:14 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:When the autospy is released it will be sickenly interesting to see how many of the rounds would have killed him.

It's already been released.
A total of eight rounds were fired, according to a statement put out Thursday by Santa Rosa Police Lt. Paul Henry, whose department is investigating the death. Seven hit the boy, and two were deemed fatal: One to the chest and the second to the hip. Other bullet wounds were found on his right wrist, left bicep, right forearm, right buttocks and hip.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby K-R » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:33 am UTC

bentheimmigrant wrote:I'm skeptical of all this talk of people presenting a major threat after being shot. Seems to me I'd grab the hole in my leg.

It's not uncommon for people to not even realise they've been shot.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:55 am UTC

K-R wrote:
Diadem wrote:A suspect that is known to be armed and dangerous running away from you is no immediate threat, but he still needs to be taken out, so shoot at the feet...A single shot aimed at a non-vital area will be enough to stop them in 99% of cases

You don't know much about guns, do you?

Uh, why the hell are you linking to a source confirming what I'm saying when making such a claim?

bentheimmigrant wrote:
Forest Goose wrote:I don't have a citation, so could very well be wrong. But, in any situation I can think of where an officer should shoot is one in which it would be risky just to injure. Police can't shoot you because you are fleeing, if they have a reason to shoot, the reason should be that you are a legitimate threat. If someone has a weapon, shooting them in the feet means they can still shoot at you- and it's going to be a harder shot to make. Essentially, if they shouldn't be shooting to kill, should they really be shooting in that instance?

Well, we had an example of an officer shooting a fleeing person, and the situation calling for him to aim for the feet... just the other day

At least someone is following this thread. Thank you.

CorruptUser wrote:Umm, no, you never shoot to wound. Ever. It's shoot to kill or not at all; there is absolutely no place in the human body you can be shot that may not lead to death. Think a leg isn't a vital area? Not if you hit the femural artery.

Again, you are factually incorrect. I don't know about training in the US, and it's possible that police are trained there to always shoot to kill. But that just proves that police training in the US is horrible. In my country at least, but I believe in almost all countries, police absolutely are trained to shoot to wound in some situations. And yes, every shot can be fatal. But not every shot will be fatal, and the odds of a shot not being fatal are a lot better if you aim at non-vital organs.

skeptical scientist wrote:I've also heard that you should never shoot to wound for this reason. Firearms self-defense generally involves aiming for center-of-mass.

Not every use of guns is self-defense. Stopping a suspect that is known to be armed and dangerous from fleeing is a legitimate use of guns. Even uses that are self-defense do not always always have to involve shooting to kill (like the example of a suspect with a knife who is still quite far away), or even shooting to hit. A police officer who feels threatened by an angry mob and is in no position to retreat is allowed to fire warning shots. And yes, even warning shots can be fatal, because what goes up must come down.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Nov 03, 2013 2:58 am UTC

K-R wrote:
bentheimmigrant wrote:I'm skeptical of all this talk of people presenting a major threat after being shot. Seems to me I'd grab the hole in my leg.

It's not uncommon for people to not even realise they've been shot.


Got a citation for that? I feel that this is likely a Hollywood myth, and/or typically associated with fairly extreme shock.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:05 am UTC

Diadem, in the US, the police are trained that, if they have to shoot, it's shoot until the target stop moving. There's no kill like overkill. If the police want to capture a hostile, that's what tasers and pepper spray are used for.

Yes it's shitty, and like I keep saying, the dispensers of justice should not be the police, but the courts. Again, a small to modest financial penalty for failing this...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:30 am UTC

skeptical scientist wrote:
morriswalters wrote:When the autospy is released it will be sickenly interesting to see how many of the rounds would have killed him.

It's already been released.
A total of eight rounds were fired, according to a statement put out Thursday by Santa Rosa Police Lt. Paul Henry, whose department is investigating the death. Seven hit the boy, and two were deemed fatal: One to the chest and the second to the hip. Other bullet wounds were found on his right wrist, left bicep, right forearm, right buttocks and hip.

The people, as awful as we can be, are less of a danger to the people than the Men in Blue are.
If we did not have the Police protecting us so well, we might do ok.

To relieve the Police of duty is a very bad idea.
That is what Martin Luther the first did.

The Police took off their uniforms and caused Sooo much trouble.
Those guys are experts in trouble. They have more real criminal contacts and criminal class friends than most of us do.

It is a kind of extortion. It is a very effective kind of extortion.
Are the Police bad guys to a man? No.

They are like any other non-professional group of soldiers.
Many like their jobs. It is good to like your job.

Dear World; We have problems.
We are still a first world nation; If you use the standards that were in place in 1964.

Can you almost hear the Police chatting away.
"Let them protest. They can't Do anything."

That is true. The child will be buried and the other children will be more careful and more fearful.

Has the victim blaming begun, yet?
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby K-R » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:52 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Uh, why the hell are you linking to a source confirming what I'm saying when making such a claim?

...I'm not. Calling TV Tropes a 'source' is rather overstating the subject, and in any event the page says precisely the opposite of what you think it says, pointing out that there's really no such thing as a 'non-vital' place on the body and that shooting at small, fast-moving targets is beyond idiotic.

the odds of a shot not being fatal are a lot better if you aim at non-vital organs.

Such as?

Stopping a suspect that is known to be armed and dangerous from fleeing is a legitimate use of guns.

Even assuming this is true, the difference between firing at said suspect's feet and not firing at all is, in 99% of cases, precisely zero, on account of a small target moving at that pace being impossible to hit. And in half the remaining cases, you hit the femoral artery and it's a fatal shot anyway.



Izawwlgood wrote:
K-R wrote:
bentheimmigrant wrote:I'm skeptical of all this talk of people presenting a major threat after being shot. Seems to me I'd grab the hole in my leg.

It's not uncommon for people to not even realise they've been shot.


Got a citation for that? I feel that this is likely a Hollywood myth, and/or typically associated with fairly extreme shock.

No. Off the top of my head, Perry Saturn got shot and didn't notice, and I've spent a bit of time googling and got nothing but vaccination-related pages, or articles on how to treat bullet wounds. However, it generally comes up in the context of disproving the Hollywood notion of instant kills, so for it to be a Hollywood myth makes little sense. I'd imagine a lot of situations in which one could get shot would also involve a lot of adrenaline, which is likely the cause.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:25 pm UTC

Yeah I too found mostly vaccination stuff, and a story about a guy who was discovered to have a gun shot after getting into a car accident. Potentially supporting the deep shock line, but who knos. My sense is the Hollywood myth side is the whole people not realizing they've been shot and discovering a gut wound in a moment of calm. I don't think that's a thing unless its concomitant with deep shock, which isn't really what you're talking about.

Considering the stopping power of guns includes a proclivity to fall to the ground or jump backwards after getting shot. I would truthfully be surprised that being aware of getting shot was really a thing. But like I said, I'm curious to see evidence for it, as weirder things have been shown.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:31 pm UTC

skeptical scientist wrote:
bentheimmigrant wrote:Blaming the kid for owning a perfectly legal toy is wrong.

It was not a perfectly legal toy. It is likely that the "friend" who gave Andy Lopez the rifle also committed a crime.


All that says is that giving the kid a bb gun must be approved by parents. Not doing so is a misdemeanour. While that law is reasonable, it hardly justifies anything about the shooting decision.

As for people not noticing they've been shot...that can happen for a short period of time. Same thing can happen if you cut yourself. Depending on the details of where and how, it may take a few seconds for the "ow" to kick in. It's not a long term thing, though, and hollywood often does oversell it.

Also, yeah, TV Tropes is kind of dodgy as a source. Maybe useful for it's domain, and demonstrating that x is a popular idea...but not a particularly scientific source.

Shooting to wound can be done. Statistically, the safest place to take a bullet is your arm. That said, shooting people is inherently damaging, and center of mass shots are much easier to make in most situations. It is reasonable to expect people shooting to consider that their target may die. This is particularly true when firing a number of rounds at center of mass. There are situations when skilled shooters have been able to take unusual shots, like shooting to disable a gun in someone's hands...but these are extremely rare and situational.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby K-R » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:33 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Considering the stopping power of guns includes a proclivity to...jump backwards after getting shot.

That one's definitely a Hollywood myth. Thoroughly busted by Mythbusters, probably other more readily available sources out there.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby engr » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:50 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Anyone know if it's SOP for autopsies to keep organs, especially when 'no foul play' is suspected?


They can be either returned or incinerated.

http://www.mtdaily.com/mt1/auto86.html

In many institutions, the sliced organs are just poured back into the open body cavity. In other places, the organs are not replaced but just incinerated at the facility. In either case, the chest plate is placed back in the chest, and the body wall is sewn back up with baseball stitches, so that the final wound again resembles a "Y."

So the media is being, well, media, as usual. "The organs were missing! Surely they must have been covering for something!"
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby engr » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:01 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Diadem, in the US, the police are trained that, if they have to shoot, it's shoot until the target stop moving. There's no kill like overkill. If the police want to capture a hostile, that's what tasers and pepper spray are used for.

Yes it's shitty, and like I keep saying, the dispensers of justice should not be the police, but the courts. Again, a small to modest financial penalty for failing this...


It's not a question of justice, it's a question of not getting killed yourself.
This dashcam video is a perfect illustration. The suspect opened fire at the officer and wounded him; the officer fired back.
What you probably can't tell from the video is that the suspect was shot in the chest and died a few minutes later, slumped behind the wheel.
This is why police officers - or people taking firearms self-defence classes - are typically instructed to shoot until the magazine is empty or until the attacker is no longer moving.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ameretrifle » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:06 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Yeah I too found mostly vaccination stuff, and a story about a guy who was discovered to have a gun shot after getting into a car accident. Potentially supporting the deep shock line, but who knos. My sense is the Hollywood myth side is the whole people not realizing they've been shot and discovering a gut wound in a moment of calm. I don't think that's a thing unless its concomitant with deep shock, which isn't really what you're talking about.

Considering the stopping power of guns includes a proclivity to fall to the ground or jump backwards after getting shot. I would truthfully be surprised that being aware of getting shot was really a thing. But like I said, I'm curious to see evidence for it, as weirder things have been shown.
Actually, there's a possibility that's due to the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan. The article just says that Reagan simply thought he had broken a rib, which is not the same as not noticing at all, but he was all the way into the ER before anyone realized it was actually a bullet wound. And there was definitely a significant span before anyone even thought that was a hospital-worthy injury, looking at the secret service transcripts. It seems that he definitely was not in the medical definition of "shock", either. I can say for a fact that the scene in the West Wing where no one notices that the President's been shot until he begins bleeding from the mouth was directly inspired by the incident, and it wouldn't surprise me if the ones you're thinking of were at least vaguely inspired by it. Or maybe not, who can say. If you take reddit as any source, between that and the various stories I've heard, I'd say " who the fuck knows, I bet it can happen, it depends".

Also, the wiki article on stopping power suggests that "knockback" is a psychological rather than a physical reaction in most cases, inasmuch as it exists.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:20 pm UTC

K-R wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Considering the stopping power of guns includes a proclivity to...jump backwards after getting shot.

That one's definitely a Hollywood myth. Thoroughly busted by Mythbusters, probably other more readily available sources out there.


Yeah, the jump/flung backward thing is definitely myth. Fall down, though, yeah. Sometimes the surprise will make people just collapse. It can happen even on hits to armor plate, etc that aren't actually that damaging. It's kind of weird, really. It isn't limited to people, either. I've seen deer do the exact same thing. It certainly isn't universal...it doesn't even happen the majority of the time, but it must be a strange reflex of some sort.

There is a time and a place to shoot until the target is no longer able to attack. Most self defense scenarios do fall under this heading. However, mag dump training is dubious, IMO. Focusing on unloaded all your bullets asap tends to result in accuracy going to hell. Highly trained people definitely can make very rapid shots, but not every policeman is actually that proficient with a gun. Most have never fired it in the line of duty, and practice infrequently at best. Civilian training usually revolves around firing two shots per target. Some, as per the "mozambique drill", rely on two center of mass shots, then a head shot. Obviously, this won't solve the problem of poor decision making re: shooting to begin with...but it would lessen the incidents of shooting bystanders, if it was adopted by the police.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:17 pm UTC

Curious about Reagan.

I think you all misunderstood, I'm not suggesting guns will physically fling you backwards or blast you off your feet, I'm suggesting people when shot often collapse or even leap away, as a psychological impression of what should happen. I may be remembering that wrong.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrO2 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:43 pm UTC

Some police chief somewhere thinks they have reasonable suspicion to track you down and investigate you if you disagree with them about the War on Drugs.
I'd like to not give too much weight to an anecdote about one guy on Facebook, but does anyone think this isn't representative of law enforcement's opinion of citizens and their rights?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Brace » Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:50 pm UTC

The guy who was involved in this incident was convicted of one count of assault on a law enforcement officer and one count of armed criminal action, and the jury recommended 60 years in prison. He was an outspoken critic of the police and an open carrier.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby davidstarlingm » Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:45 pm UTC

IIRC, Reagan didn't know he had been shot because the lead .22 caliber pistol round ricocheted off the inside of the bulletproof window of his car. The impact deformed it into a disc, which entered between his ribs without making a significant entry wound. A tiny tear in his suit simply wasn't noticeable.

Typically, being hit in the torso will cause a fairly noticeable entry wound as the tissue is compressed, twisted, and torn by the passage of the bullet.

It's possible that the shock of a normal impact could also cause involuntary muscle contraction around the site sufficient to cause someone to lose balance or at least feel like they've been pushed back.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby skeptical scientist » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:51 am UTC

KrO2 wrote:Some police chief somewhere thinks they have reasonable suspicion to track you down and investigate you if you disagree with them about the War on Drugs.
I'd like to not give too much weight to an anecdote about one guy on Facebook, but does anyone think this isn't representative of law enforcement's opinion of citizens and their rights?

It may be indicative of law enforcement's opinion in South Carolina. It's not indicative of their opinion everywhere.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby KrO2 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:00 pm UTC

That's good news. I'm very glad to hear that they're reasonable about that.
On the other hand, I'm a bit unwilling to declare the Seattle PD reasonable given that, well, excessive force is even worse than that.

In other news, "How do we know we won't be forcibly given anal probes, enemas, and colonoscopies?" reporter asks. "Because we follow the law," police chief lies.
I'm not sure which is worse: the fact that they did that on the authority of an expired warrant from a different county, or the fact that they got a warrant for that in the first place when the "probable cause" was that he appeared to be clenching his buttocks.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:07 am UTC

http://www.kob.com/article/stories/s320 ... nmCzr-fd6-

Good God! That happened nearly a year ago.
How we stand? I always stand funny.

If the way we stand can get these guys that dedicated to duty;
I am scared shitless to let them see me walk.

Scared shitless? With the help of the medical staff, they can fix that.


If that is not a Onion Report, then I have an opinion.
The medical staff should be slapped Down Hard!
What the fuck were they thinking?

The medical staff that refused to perform that procedure, should get a whole bunch of positive feedback.
They can not make the world what it is not. They did the Right Thing. That medical staff did the Right Thing and should be told so.

What do we have that is the opposite of punishment?
In what way can we reward that medical staff?
I know it is all in a day's work. Still.

If some medical staff don't know that;
We Have A Problem, Houston!

Mimbres Memorial Hospital
900 W. Ash Street
Deming, NM 88030
(575) 546-5800

That seems to be the land address.

http://www.mimbresmemorial.com/Contact% ... %20Us.aspx
That may contact the hospital.
Of course, it is a bad idea to slam them with messages.
That turns into a DOS attack. They are the good guys.

We don't want to attack them. I don't.
I want to say,
"It has been reported that on January 2nd, 2013, You were professional and refused to perform an invasive and unnecessary medical procedure. Thank You."

Thank God and everyone that played a part in the medical staff saying, "No."

Edit:
That link is wrong. That is not the way to contact them via internet.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby skeptical scientist » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:15 am UTC

KrO2 wrote:That's good news. I'm very glad to hear that they're reasonable about that.
On the other hand, I'm a bit unwilling to declare the Seattle PD reasonable given that, well, excessive force is even worse than that.

Fair point. I was specifically referring to their attitude in regard to marijuana. I am well aware of their excessive force issues, as I grew up in Seattle and have seen many of the news stories about one or another incident of unwarranted violence from the police.

In other news, "How do we know we won't be forcibly given anal probes, enemas, and colonoscopies?" reporter asks. "Because we follow the law," police chief lies.
I'm not sure which is worse: the fact that they did that on the authority of an expired warrant from a different county, or the fact that they got a warrant for that in the first place when the "probable cause" was that he appeared to be clenching his buttocks.

That is one of the most appalling things I have read lately (and that's saying something, given the string of NSA-related revelations in the last few months). The two anal exams and three enemas are bad enough, but I literally shouted in shock when I read that after all of those exams came up negative, they went ahead and performed surgery. I hope the damages are in the millions.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:02 pm UTC

Well, the hospital expects to be paid for all the hard work they did for the police department. Who should pay? The patient of course!
Eckert's lawsuit wrote:Defendant Gila Regional has billed Plaintiff for the “services” it provided at the request of law enforcement....Plaintiff still receives medical bills for thousands of dollars for these illegal, invasive and painful medical procedures.

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Paul in Saudi
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Paul in Saudi » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:15 pm UTC

News reports now indicate that Leo, the police dog in the ass-search case has a history of false alerts, and is not certified in the state. One of the other false alerts also resulted in ass rape.

http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S3210356.shtml?cat=520#.UnpqeZSzti4

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addams
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:31 pm UTC

Paul in Saudi wrote:News reports now indicate that Leo, the police dog in the ass-search case has a history of false alerts, and is not certified in the state. One of the other false alerts also resulted in ass rape.

http://www.kob.com/article/stories/S3210356.shtml?cat=520#.UnpqeZSzti4

#1. I am going to get my shit together and send a thank you note to the hospital that said, "No."
#2. This this tragic and I can't help but think it is funny in a twisted way.
Dogs are good for a lot of things. It is the Nature of The Beast to sniff farts.

These two men were brutalized because some Stupid Dog sniffed their seats!
That is Tragic. That makes us All look like AssHoles. That is, also, funny.
Poor men. Stupid Dog was, just, being a dog. Dogs are like that!

A person does not know what a Dog is going to find interesting.
We can make some guesses. That this is happening to men and not women makes me wonder. 'Why?'

I know for a Fact that Dogs notice the smell of menses.
I have had to look at a Dog and say, "Yeah! What of it? Back off, Buddy!"

What can you and I do? I can send a note to the hospital that said, "No."
This one man has a Justice system that will, maybe, work for him.

To make one man a millionaire, while so many others are still being brutalized away from the light of the media is not going to help us much.
The people of that jurisdiction may be forced to Pay Up. Will that change the Culture of the Men in Blue?

For the government at large to pay for the indiscretions of a few Men in Blue will not make us all safer.
What would? Maybe, if we had their reports on TV. Maybe, if we had their training on TV.

Maybe, If we can call the War on Drugs over; Complete! Done!
Humans have been using Drugs sense before we were Human.

We want Drugs. We want Drugs tasteful matched with educated, compassionate professionals.
Pharmacists! Those guys know Drugs. Ask a Pharmacist! Throw in a Nurse or two and we are Done!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Sytri
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sytri » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:21 am UTC

Father and son argue, son drives off in father's car. Father calls cops. Cops kill son.

Kid was in a wooded area, revving the engine and driving back and forth. Surely there's training to de-escalate a situation like this verbally rather than shoot into the car?
Apathy will kill us all. Or not. Whatever.

Chen
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:55 pm UTC

Sytri wrote:Father and son argue, son drives off in father's car. Father calls cops. Cops kill son.

Kid was in a wooded area, revving the engine and driving back and forth. Surely there's training to de-escalate a situation like this verbally rather than shoot into the car?


Note they did mention they tried to get him to stop the car verbally (its in one of the links in the article you linked). However, if he was blocked in by the cops in the end then shooting seems like it was too extreme, since it didn't mention anything about him trying to ram cop cars or the like, at that point. If he could still have gotten away and the rest of the story is true (that people were jumping out of the way and that he was going down streets against traffic) then I'm not so sure its unjustified to shoot someone like this if they won't listen to you telling them to stop. A car can be used as a deadly weapon. Driving into oncoming traffic is probably as dangerous to the public, if not moreso, as randomly firing a gun into the air is and I'm pretty sure you'd reasonably get shot for doing that.

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Sytri
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sytri » Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:55 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Sytri wrote:Father and son argue, son drives off in father's car. Father calls cops. Cops kill son.

Kid was in a wooded area, revving the engine and driving back and forth. Surely there's training to de-escalate a situation like this verbally rather than shoot into the car?


Note they did mention they tried to get him to stop the car verbally (its in one of the links in the article you linked). However, if he was blocked in by the cops in the end then shooting seems like it was too extreme, since it didn't mention anything about him trying to ram cop cars or the like, at that point. If he could still have gotten away and the rest of the story is true (that people were jumping out of the way and that he was going down streets against traffic) then I'm not so sure its unjustified to shoot someone like this if they won't listen to you telling them to stop. A car can be used as a deadly weapon. Driving into oncoming traffic is probably as dangerous to the public, if not moreso, as randomly firing a gun into the air is and I'm pretty sure you'd reasonably get shot for doing that.


Whilst I agree that a car is a definite weapon and that if he were driving into oncoming traffic and pedestrians then extreme force may be justified. But by all accounts that had stopped and he was cornered. The police were in cars of their own; at that point, they could have ensured he was blocked in with their vehicles and just exited them and retreated to a safe distance. The point is though, that there have been many car chases in all the years and we have developed techniques to stop these that don't involve firearms. A stinger comes to mind as the first port of call. The way it's reported it sounds like it was just one policeman, engaged in a prolonged pursuit, cornered his target and then used deadly force. I'm a brit so I am under the assumption that US police, those that drive regularly are taught techniques to stop vehicles with their own. (This largely comes from watching TV shows so apologise if that's not the case.)
Apathy will kill us all. Or not. Whatever.

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addams
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:37 pm UTC

A tyrant will always find an excuse.
The victim always Has It Coming.

The victim always deserves the behavior of the tyrant; If you interview the Tyrant.
That has been true sense before Aasop sat in his Master's house and wrote about the Human Condition.

Spoiler:
Once upon a time a Wolf was lapping at a spring on a hillside, when, looking up, what should he see but a Lamb just beginning to drink a little lower down. "There's my supper," thought he, "if only I can find some excuse to seize it." Then he called out to the Lamb, "How dare you muddle the water from which I am drinking?"

"Nay, master, nay," said Lambikin; "if the water be muddy up there, I cannot be the cause of it, for it runs down from you to me."

"Well, then," said the Wolf, "why did you call me bad names this time last year?"

"That cannot be," said the Lamb; "I am only six months old."

"I don't care," snarled the Wolf; "if it was not you it was your father;" and with that he rushed upon the poor little Lamb and ate her all up. But before she died she gasped out:

Moral of Aesops Fable: "Any excuse will serve a tyrant."


Once upon a time a very long time ago, Germany had similar problems.
Germany has had similar problems over and over, again.

Many Americans are of Western European decent.
Maybe it is in The Blood to be a little Ruthless and BloodThirsty.

Yep. A quick Google Search backs that last statement up.
It runs in the Family; The Human Family!

It can be encouraged. It can be discouraged.
It is not present in all persons.

Many, if not most, can be trained to be AssHoles.
Mix AssHoles with idiots and what do you get?

USA! USA! USA!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:42 pm UTC

Sytri wrote:Whilst I agree that a car is a definite weapon and that if he were driving into oncoming traffic and pedestrians then extreme force may be justified. But by all accounts that had stopped and he was cornered. The police were in cars of their own; at that point, they could have ensured he was blocked in with their vehicles and just exited them and retreated to a safe distance. The point is though, that there have been many car chases in all the years and we have developed techniques to stop these that don't involve firearms. A stinger comes to mind as the first port of call. The way it's reported it sounds like it was just one policeman, engaged in a prolonged pursuit, cornered his target and then used deadly force. I'm a brit so I am under the assumption that US police, those that drive regularly are taught techniques to stop vehicles with their own. (This largely comes from watching TV shows so apologise if that's not the case.)


One of the articles did mention the officer tried to use his car to stop the truck but failed to do so. I don't know what else was attempted though. I'm not really sure how a Stinger would have worked if this person was driving through a random forested area. Don't you need to empty a street and then drop the Stinger to make it useful? If you don't know the route the person is taking it seems like it'd be impossible to use something like that.

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Sytri
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sytri » Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:53 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Sytri wrote:~~~My Stuff~~~~


One of the articles did mention the officer tried to use his car to stop the truck but failed to do so. I don't know what else was attempted though. I'm not really sure how a Stinger would have worked if this person was driving through a random forested area. Don't you need to empty a street and then drop the Stinger to make it useful? If you don't know the route the person is taking it seems like it'd be impossible to use something like that.


Agreed that it can't be used in a forested area, although I think that's mainly down to the fact it's easier to avoid it than it doesn't work. My problem with it all is that it seems like this was quite a long chase yet there was just one car trying to stop them. I don't know police tactics but I would think that after being rammed and watching them drive dangerously there would be more than one person trying to bring them to a halt.

My view on this is that in Britain, as far as I understand, if a person starts driving erratically in a built up area and becomes a danger to themselves and others then the police stand down. Either completely or try to get a police helicopter out to track them until they've stopped and exited the car. The idea being it's better to have everyone safe and not injured and catch them later than it is to try and bring them to justice and end up with a severe injury or death.
Apathy will kill us all. Or not. Whatever.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:01 pm UTC

Sytri wrote:
Chen wrote:
Sytri wrote:~~~My Stuff~~~~


One of the articles did mention the officer tried to use his car to stop the truck but failed to do so. I don't know what else was attempted though. I'm not really sure how a Stinger would have worked if this person was driving through a random forested area. Don't you need to empty a street and then drop the Stinger to make it useful? If you don't know the route the person is taking it seems like it'd be impossible to use something like that.


Agreed that it can't be used in a forested area, although I think that's mainly down to the fact it's easier to avoid it than it doesn't work. My problem with it all is that it seems like this was quite a long chase yet there was just one car trying to stop them. I don't know police tactics but I would think that after being rammed and watching them drive dangerously there would be more than one person trying to bring them to a halt.

My view on this is that in Britain, as far as I understand, if a person starts driving erratically in a built up area and becomes a danger to themselves and others then the police stand down. Either completely or try to get a police helicopter out to track them until they've stopped and exited the car. The idea being it's better to have everyone safe and not injured and catch them later than it is to try and bring them to justice and end up with a severe injury or death.

That sounds correct.
That is, most likely, the way it works in Britain.

As we see, that is not the way it works in the USA.
Trigger Happy? It seems so.

To kill others is not that big a deal for some people.
It is neither a good thing nor a bad thing in the hearts and minds
of people that have been trained how to think about it.

I know for a Fact some people are alive,
because other people are lazy and don't want to do the paperwork.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

engr
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby engr » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:53 am UTC

Here's the dashcam video of the chase.
The driver rammed police multiple times with his truck, not to mentioning nearly killing bystanders by driving like through the campus.
Watch and decide for yourself.
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions. Gilbert K. Chesterton

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addams
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby addams » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:34 am UTC

engr wrote:Here's the dashcam video of the chase.
The driver rammed police multiple times with his truck, not to mentioning nearly killing bystanders by driving like through the campus.
Watch and decide for yourself.

The dash cam did not show the shooting.

What I think?
I think that was a panicked driver.
That driver was a teenager. Teenagers have some bad moments. It is the Nature of the Beast.

What I think?
Don't run from animals and don't chase panicked drivers.

Did you hear the radio? Do you see the screen in front of you?
He can run. Where the Hell is he going to go in the 21st century?

Of course, the argument can be made that he would have messed up even more lawn and destroyed even more temporary artwork.
They shot him? They chased him and shot him? He was not going anywhere. Once he was in the trees it was all over.

His poor family. He was having a bad day. Teens are horrible. They, really, can't help it.
To chase that truck with the siren on was such a bad idea. I know that siren is the Best Thing Ever to some guys.

It frightens people. Frightened people are like any animal, they will do the strangest things.
I think that young driver did not commit a capital crime.

What the Police did may have been standard operation procedure. That does not make it Right.

Yes. It is true that we may have too many people on the planet. 17 years old is too late for a state enforced abortion.
That is what I think.

That young man could have been walked back to his father.
That young man and his father could have been required to spend time with a Talkative Nosy State Worker.

Family and individual therapy does not fix everything. It is entertaining for the therapists.
Now; That family has some grieving to do. We don't know that young man. He was having a bad day.

It did not have to end that way. It is cheeper for the state for it to end that way.
A little paperwork and we will move on to the next event.

Once that truck was in the trees, unless he was heavily armed and experienced, he was out maned.
He did not need to be out gunned. Did he have a gun?

Do the Police from other nations look at that shit and think?
What do they think? Of course, they think "He must have had it coming."

Are any beginning to think, "That is poor, Police work."
I keep thinking. I read this forum and think and say any dang thing I want to say.

The Police guys always look so frightened. Why? They have the fancy equipment. They have guns. They have back-up.
That clip had two Police cars and a third one showed up? That was three, four men. Big boys, too.

They could not 'take' a frightened mildly psychotic teenager? Why?
Have you ever heard anyone say, "Use your words." ?

Have you ever heard Report? It is like any other kind of shift work that involves working with people.
Those men may be frightened because of what they hear in Report. What are they being told?

How much education do those guys have? What a nightmare for the family.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Thesh
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Thesh » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:47 am UTC

engr wrote:Here's the dashcam video of the chase.
The driver rammed police multiple times with his truck, not to mentioning nearly killing bystanders by driving like through the campus.
Watch and decide for yourself.


Yeah, I'm not sure I can call this one misbehavior. His first action was to ram a police officer; a vehicle is a deadly weapon, and when you have an out of control person with a deadly weapon, it's a very shitty situation. Was there something else that could have been done? Maybe, I really don't know; he was acting very dangerously, running red lights, wrong way down one way streets, doing nothing could have just as easily resulted in someone else getting killed.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.


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