Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:56 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:tl;dr: I like the idea, but I think it would be very hard to implement properly.
Actually, I think it's probably prudent for publishers to insert a disclaimer to the effect of 'some of the suggestions/activities in this book may be illegal in your area. Check with local law enforcement before doing anything in this book', which could be stamped on everything, is fairly unobtrusive and doesn't infringe on freedom of speech or creative license.
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Elvish Pillager » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:10 pm UTC

Well, yes, but "unobtrusive" might be the opposite of what we need here.
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Yoshisummons » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:21 pm UTC

But isn't the mere precedent of putting that kind of label on particular books that we currently think is alright to do is also breaking the very first initial barrier of entry to put warning labels on other things that people find morally repugnant. I think what I'm trying to say is that setting a bar on a form of censorship(no matter how reasonable the warning label sounds to me morally at the moment) books/ideas/memes to anything but *Do not actively inhibit sales or propagation of said material* disables a safeguard for people not to mess with media material down the line.
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Elvish Pillager » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:54 pm UTC

I think there might theoretically be a way to do it right, but I don't expect any legislature to be able to implement it without causing the problems you describe down the road.

Unless I see a concrete proposal that avoids that problem, I favor staying far away from anything that puts restrictions on speech. Government should use different interventions to deal with issues like this - such as promoting knowledge about child abuse through its own media.
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby PeteP » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:31 pm UTC

TheAmazingRando wrote:Everyone I know who was raised by parents who followed this book ended up with pretty severe emotional problems as an adult. Anything that advocates punishing your children for not looking happy enough, or punishing them for no reason other than to assert dominance...even if the punishments weren't physical and severe, it would be mental abuse.

What? You know more than one person raised with advice from that book? I would have assumed that it's a bit more obscure than that. O_o

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby davidstarlingm » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:22 pm UTC

PeteP wrote:
TheAmazingRando wrote:Everyone I know who was raised by parents who followed this book ended up with pretty severe emotional problems as an adult. Anything that advocates punishing your children for not looking happy enough, or punishing them for no reason other than to assert dominance...even if the punishments weren't physical and severe, it would be mental abuse.

What? You know more than one person raised with advice from that book? I would have assumed that it's a bit more obscure than that. O_o

It's not actually that obscure. I was raised with advice from that book. In fundivangelical circles, it's on pretty much everybody's shelves. They are passed around from family to family and given as wedding gifts and talked about at Thanksgiving dinners. Moms take their kids to the park and discuss the "discipline" challenges each of their kids are posing and what they've been doing about them. Teenagers force a grin as their parents say, "Yep, we still spank, and look how great they're turned out!"

I told my dad a few days ago that I wouldn't ever let my son stay with them alone, because I couldn't trust them not to hit him. He said, "Well, we would respect your wishes....but I guess there would be situations where we'd spank him regardless, if we thought it was serious enough."

Obviously, banning a book like this legally wouldn't do any good. But Amazon sure as hell shouldn't be carrying it.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:47 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:Obviously, banning a book like this legally wouldn't do any good. But Amazon sure as hell shouldn't be carrying it.
I actually agree with Yoshisummons now... Maybe amazon shouldn't carry books written that promote gay or Jewish or black lifestyles as well?

It is a dicey situation.
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:54 pm UTC

I'm pretty comfortable drawing the line at "beating children." The slippery slope argument seems unwarranted here.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby davidstarlingm » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:58 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:Obviously, banning a book like this legally wouldn't do any good. But Amazon sure as hell shouldn't be carrying it.
I actually agree with Yoshisummons now... Maybe amazon shouldn't carry books written that promote gay or Jewish or black lifestyles as well?

It is a dicey situation.

Yeah, I'm with Heisenberg. They've also drawn the line at books which promote pedophilia. Not to say that being beaten with plumbing line from infancy to adulthood is as bad as being sexually molested, but....it's up there.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Yoshisummons » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:27 am UTC

Using the slippery slope argument for the record puts a really dirty taste in my mouth but this is something that I'd personally wouldn't trust myself with it because once I play a scenario in my head what would come next after trying to limit these awful parenting books my dark side goes ":twisted: You know I think I can make a persuasive argument that once you do the cold calculus over the costly net utility loss in the economic policies endorsed in book x it would be best if we go limit sales of that as well :twisted:." I mean it'd be easy to set up a censoring board to limit the propagation of say self published crank books on things we can arguably prove to be false but subjects on morality? If I can think of a way it could be done without getting out of hand I'd be for it but I can't think of how it could be done(really want the solution to just be outside my current hypothesis space which is why I posted in the first place, to get the ball rolling on crafting some system).

I mean books like Mein Keimpf already are out of the socially acceptable range to read or even hint at the idea of agreeing with the ideas within by reading in public. "Oh hey Yoshisummons it is so nice to see you here for Thanksgiving hey what book are you reading? Mein Keimpf? Uh that's interesting . . . what class is it for? Reading it for pleasure and not for a history class you say? Well sorry to cut the conversation short but your aunt looks like she needs a hand with preparing that turkey." :twisted:
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:48 am UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:Obviously, banning a book like this legally wouldn't do any good. But Amazon sure as hell shouldn't be carrying it.
I actually agree with Yoshisummons now... Maybe amazon shouldn't carry books written that promote gay or Jewish or black lifestyles as well?

It is a dicey situation.

Yeah, I'm with Heisenberg. They've also drawn the line at books which promote pedophilia. Not to say that being beaten with plumbing line from infancy to adulthood is as bad as being sexually molested, but....it's up there.

You should listen to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History on raising children. I personally agree that anything that advocates for illegal activities should be subject to disclaimers, but there are places where being gay is still effectively illegal.

The slippery slope argument is very apropos here.
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby addams » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:20 am UTC

I was once given the opportunity to vote on Censorship.
I don't like being censored. I was indoctrinated with the idea of free speech.

I voted against censorship. I, now, think I was wrong.
I did not carry the day. Others voted in favor of censorship.

Open, transparent, intelligent censorship is a good thing.
When done correctly, it is protective and freeing.

When there are no limits put on what can be said nor on how loudly or how often it can be said,
The freedom to think and speak for most are infringed.

Inside the US in the early 21st century there is censorship in one of its ugly forms.
If you have Money you control the conversation. No thinking required.

Many posters have made arguments against this one book.
I am still against hiding information and burning books.

There was a time when the Government when asked, would do some public service announcements and community education in responds to this kind of book.
The governing bodies do not dare, now.

To flood the airwaves with some reasoned information about that book and what the law is and very importantly about
What child development experts have to say about Living with and Loving children.

Personally? My brother lost his temper with me one time and spanked me. I was four or five.
My grandfather yelled at me twice.

Oh. I have been hit. Not by people I respected.
As soon as someone does that the relationship has changed.

RIght? Don't you find that is the way it works?
They can make you act as if you respect them.
It is, just, an act.

I tried spanking a teen age girl, one time. Like the people reading that stupid book,
I was told a spanking made other people's children behave, It would work for me, too.
What a stupid thing to do. I swatted her on the butt. All it did was make her mad and make me feel like an idiot.

I think that is a function of government. To promote the disclosure of factual information about the challenges we face as people.
You can read any book you want. These are reasons for not acting on this one kind of book.

Good God! It seems so barbaric. Swatting a person's butt should be a Love Pat.
Those are usually fun for everyone involved.

Well... If you know them.
Don't Love Pat random strangers; No matter how tempting.
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:01 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:
PeteP wrote:
TheAmazingRando wrote:Everyone I know who was raised by parents who followed this book ended up with pretty severe emotional problems as an adult. Anything that advocates punishing your children for not looking happy enough, or punishing them for no reason other than to assert dominance...even if the punishments weren't physical and severe, it would be mental abuse.

What? You know more than one person raised with advice from that book? I would have assumed that it's a bit more obscure than that. O_o

It's not actually that obscure. I was raised with advice from that book. In fundivangelical circles, it's on pretty much everybody's shelves. They are passed around from family to family and given as wedding gifts and talked about at Thanksgiving dinners. Moms take their kids to the park and discuss the "discipline" challenges each of their kids are posing and what they've been doing about them. Teenagers force a grin as their parents say, "Yep, we still spank, and look how great they're turned out!"

I told my dad a few days ago that I wouldn't ever let my son stay with them alone, because I couldn't trust them not to hit him. He said, "Well, we would respect your wishes....but I guess there would be situations where we'd spank him regardless, if we thought it was serious enough."

Obviously, banning a book like this legally wouldn't do any good. But Amazon sure as hell shouldn't be carrying it.


*shrug* I also was. It's not that obscure, and I agree that it has significant market penetration in the fundie crowd.

I'm not universally against spanking in all situations, but...seriously, I get concerned with the gleefulness with which certain crowds embrace it. For instance, when physical punishment is combined with personal anger...it's a toxic mix. The same is true of other disciplinary methods, obviously, such as yelling. If you've ever seen a parent in a yelling match with their kid in a store or what not, you likely feel the same way, but of course, physical punishment has more overt potential for getting out of hand.

I don't really agree with censorship in general, but I do agree that this book is pretty bad. Not AS bad as some people make it out to be, sure...but still plenty bad. It's not that punishment and reward are not useful conditioning tools, or that kids don't need training...it's the implicit end goal that worries me. The idea that children should be subservient, and treated more like property than as individual human beings. Now, plenty of these books won't go quite so far as to say that, but they certainly uphold ideals very consistant with that.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby davidstarlingm » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:12 pm UTC

I think the most dangerous thing about this particular book is not the instructions-for-beating or the dehumanization of children, but the assurance that spanking will produce the desired outcome if applied liberally enough, GUARANTEE FROM GOD promise.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby addams » Wed Nov 27, 2013 9:13 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:I think the most dangerous thing about this particular book is not the instructions-for-beating or the dehumanization of children, but the assurance that spanking will produce the desired outcome if applied liberally enough, GUARANTEE FROM GOD promise.

God is wrong on this one.

Next question.
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby TheAmazingRando » Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:25 pm UTC

PeteP wrote:
TheAmazingRando wrote:Everyone I know who was raised by parents who followed this book ended up with pretty severe emotional problems as an adult. Anything that advocates punishing your children for not looking happy enough, or punishing them for no reason other than to assert dominance...even if the punishments weren't physical and severe, it would be mental abuse.

What? You know more than one person raised with advice from that book? I would have assumed that it's a bit more obscure than that. O_o
Growing up I went to a pretty large, denominationally vague Baptist-ish church that attracted a bunch of different crowds, the fundamentalist homeschooling movement being among them. I lost close contact with most of them during high school, since their parents generally forbade them from most social functions, church-sponsored or otherwise. It's only recently, re-connecting with some of them after college, that I've learned about all this stuff.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby curtis95112 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:00 am UTC

addams wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:I think the most dangerous thing about this particular book is not the instructions-for-beating or the dehumanization of children, but the assurance that spanking will produce the desired outcome if applied liberally enough, GUARANTEE FROM GOD promise.

God is wrong on this one.

Next question.


God usually is. Now try convincing the kind of people that would actually use this book.
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby addams » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:23 am UTC

curtis95112 wrote:
addams wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:I think the most dangerous thing about this particular book is not the instructions-for-beating or the dehumanization of children, but the assurance that spanking will produce the desired outcome if applied liberally enough, GUARANTEE FROM GOD promise.

God is wrong on this one.

Next question.


God usually is. Now try convincing the kind of people that would actually use this book.

It is possible. I have heard it done.
The conversation usually starts with The New Testament.

It is within many Bible clinging people to acknowledge the New Testament as a new deal with God.
There is the Old relationship with God and the New relationship with God.
The New relationship is gentler. That is the way I heard it.

Hey! I don't know Chapter and Verse to make this argument. I listened while it was being made. It seemed nice enough.
Sermon on the Mount and some other very sweet and kind parts of the New Testament were used. Seemed ok to me.

Gentle people will find the gentle way, if possible.
Corse people will find the corse way, if possible.

Cross my fingers. May the gentle voices be heard above the screaming and the corse voices of the Media.
Not all media is corse and violent. I have walked into the wrong rooms at the wrong time. ahhhh!

SPOILER: Scary movie trailer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQ8fsYkL2yk
As Religions go that is scary stuff.
What kind of a parent allows that to happen to a treasured child?

That God is our parental role model?
Dear God! Pray for one another. Aim those prayers somewhere else!

Religion is complex stuff. We can not outlaw a whole and functioning religion.
The way religions, work that would not work.

excuse me. I frightened myself with the trailer.
I can watch the trailer. Not the movie.
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Diadem » Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:53 am UTC

curtis95112 wrote:
addams wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:I think the most dangerous thing about this particular book is not the instructions-for-beating or the dehumanization of children, but the assurance that spanking will produce the desired outcome if applied liberally enough, GUARANTEE FROM GOD promise.

God is wrong on this one.
Next question.

God usually is. Now try convincing the kind of people that would actually use this book.

Can't we get him to do a press release or something? I understand God's a busy person, and he has no time to contact all of his followers individually, but surely he can do a press release about issues like these?
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:25 am UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:I think the most dangerous thing about this particular book is not the instructions-for-beating or the dehumanization of children, but the assurance that spanking will produce the desired outcome if applied liberally enough, GUARANTEE FROM GOD promise.


Well, that's just baked into religion. They're all about attributing stuff to higher authorities instead of actually taking responsibility for your own advice. If they weren't, they wouldn't be religions.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Vahir » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:49 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:I think the most dangerous thing about this particular book is not the instructions-for-beating or the dehumanization of children, but the assurance that spanking will produce the desired outcome if applied liberally enough, GUARANTEE FROM GOD promise.


Well, that's just baked into religion. They're all about attributing stuff to higher authorities instead of actually taking responsibility for your own advice. If they weren't, they wouldn't be religions.


That's quite a generalization you have there.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:56 am UTC

Vahir wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:I think the most dangerous thing about this particular book is not the instructions-for-beating or the dehumanization of children, but the assurance that spanking will produce the desired outcome if applied liberally enough, GUARANTEE FROM GOD promise.


Well, that's just baked into religion. They're all about attributing stuff to higher authorities instead of actually taking responsibility for your own advice. If they weren't, they wouldn't be religions.


That's quite a generalization you have there.


Yup. Feel free to disprove it.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Nov 29, 2013 2:20 pm UTC

I don't think paganism or wicca is based on Higher Authority.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby davidstarlingm » Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:08 pm UTC

Growing up fundamentalist, it's very hard for me to think about faith/religion in terms of anything else than a system which guarantees certain results in exchange for certain actions. Fundamentalism is attractive for many reasons, but one of the predominant reasons is that it allows you to abdicate individual responsibility for making hard choices and difficult decisions. You're promised a set of ideal responses to every situation guaranteeing eternally positive results, and all you have to do is give up personal autonomy -- a steal by any measure.

Except until you realize that the responses aren't always ideal, not every situation is covered, and the results aren't always positive.

But as I've broadened my horizons beyond fundamentalism, I've found that there are plenty of people for whom faith is not a set of function boxes. So that's positive.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Nov 29, 2013 6:48 pm UTC

Slate has a long and fairly detailed piece looking at this case specifically, as well as interviews from several adoptive children in different families with similar sorts of experiences. I'll throw on a trigger warning if you aren't really comfortable reading about stories of child abuse.

The piece makes the argument that the Williams is symptomatic of broader problems in the adoption system--parents are poorly vetted by adoption agencies and receive little-to-no pre-adoption training or support; there are no limits to the number of children an adoptive family may take, and parents may be unable to provide adequate care; there is little follow-up on the welfare of the children post-adoption by the adoption agencies, CPS, or any appropriate authorities; even when there are complaints, CPS seems reluctant to get involved; government is unable or unwilling to provide support, and nobody is collecting data about anything. It's a recipe for disaster at pretty much every level.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:07 pm UTC

But it costs $25k to adopt a kid in the US ($40k if the kid is white); where is this money going, if not background screenings?

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby davidstarlingm » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:08 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Slate has a long and fairly detailed piece looking at this case specifically, as well as interviews from several adoptive children in different families with similar sorts of experiences. I'll throw on a trigger warning if you aren't really comfortable reading about stories of child abuse.

The piece makes the argument that the Williams is symptomatic of broader problems in the adoption system--parents are poorly vetted by adoption agencies and receive little-to-no pre-adoption training or support; there are no limits to the number of children an adoptive family may take, and parents may be unable to provide adequate care; there is little follow-up on the welfare of the children post-adoption by the adoption agencies, CPS, or any appropriate authorities; even when there are complaints, CPS seems reluctant to get involved; government is unable or unwilling to provide support, and nobody is collecting data about anything. It's a recipe for disaster at pretty much every level.

I have no idea how my family was ever permitted to adopt.

My parents had already been turned down for domestic adoption. So, yay, international adoption! Get a bevy of black kids who need educated. Hurrah.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby morriswalters » Fri Nov 29, 2013 7:35 pm UTC

Welcome to the world. There aren't the resources available to do the things that need to be done. And there aren't going to be. Tyndmyr thinks that it baked into Religion, which would be acceptable as an explanation, if fundamentalists were the only ones beating children to death. They aren't. Nor is every fundamentalist beating children to death, are they? Nor is every adoptive parent. The problem is inherently one of humans.

Look at this process for a security screening, and consider the difficulty as compared to vetting prospective parents. Now consider the costs to follow up during care in an era of declining budgets. Consider the difficulty in getting enough social workers to accept the conditions and the pay. And consider the high rates of burnout among those workers. For doing a job that most people couldn't and wouldn't do since they would have to deal with some of the most heartbreaking situations you are likely to experience, with the realization that most people don't care after the initial sympathetic response upon hearing about one of the more egregious cases. And then consider the numbers.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Jave D » Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:16 am UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:I think the most dangerous thing about this particular book is not the instructions-for-beating or the dehumanization of children, but the assurance that spanking will produce the desired outcome if applied liberally enough, GUARANTEE FROM GOD promise.


Yeah, but the guarantee doesn't come from God. TTUAC doesn't even quote the Bible. It's not holy writ, it's not some fundamental part of Christianity.

Blaming "religion" in this case would be like blaming "science" because the Pearls take a lot of cues from ideas in classical conditioning. Either one gives these assholes way too much credit.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby addams » Sat Nov 30, 2013 4:30 am UTC

Jave D wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:I think the most dangerous thing about this particular book is not the instructions-for-beating or the dehumanization of children, but the assurance that spanking will produce the desired outcome if applied liberally enough, GUARANTEE FROM GOD promise.


Yeah, but the guarantee doesn't come from God. TTUAC doesn't even quote the Bible. It's not holy writ, it's not some fundamental part of Christianity.

Blaming "religion" in this case would be like blaming "science" because the Pearls take a lot of cues from ideas in classical conditioning. Either one gives these assholes way too much credit.

I think you are correct.
It is not Religion.

Religion is the shield, maybe.
People sometimes hide behind something very nice to do things that are anything but nice.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby johnie104 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:20 pm UTC

Ok, so apparantly the authors have a website. This is one of the articles: http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/too-young-to-spank/?topic_slug=art-of-child-training
I must say, if you ignore the innane biblical quotations and the general feeling of "look at me, I have authority", then this advice seems "more sensible" then what the OP article seems to imply. I haven't read the whole article (I was cringing too much at the biblical stuff), but the idea that small children don't have an idea of the difference between right and wrong, is actually quite sensible.
Signature removed because of it's blinding awesomeness.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby ObsessoMom » Sun Dec 01, 2013 7:55 pm UTC

My dad's family were Catholics. Strict disciplinarians who believed in nipping "defiance" (defined loosely) with beatings with a belt. They said we kids had to learn obedience the hard way. It was for our own good.

My mom's family were stone-cold atheists. Strict disciplinarians who believed in nipping "defiance" (defined loosely) with beatings with a belt. They said we kids had to learn obedience the hard way. It was for our own good.

My conclusion:

The problem with overenthusiastic child discipline is not religion. The problem is sadomasochism that can't find an appropriate, consensual adult outlet, so that fetish/obsession gets indulged at the expense of kids.

There's nothing wrong with sadomasochistic sexual play per se. In fact, it's helpful to many survivors of child abuse. (Not me, but I have a few friends who are into it--again, only in a consensual, adult context; it is an important part of their sexual identities, that gets exercised in a beautiful, healing way with a loving and understanding partner.)

That said, it's very important for that sadomasochistic energy to be released in a positive way that does not exploit people who have no say in the matter. Some abusive disciplinary techniques are patently sexual, particularly when a child's buttocks are involved, and to a neutral observer they are often much more about meeting the adult's wants and needs than about educating or otherwise benefitting the child.

Religion may be used to justify abusive disciplinary techniques, but religion can be used to justify just about anything. Hence all those Biblical caveats about false prophets, the need to apply critical thinking to what you hear instead of blindly following what a (potentially hypocritical) religious figure tells you, testing "prophecies" to make sure the "prophet" isn't just delusional or lying, etc. Hence also that commandment in The Big Ten about not using the Lord's name in vain--i.e., hanging it on your own prejudices and agendas as the ultimate celebrity endorsement, making stuff up and claiming God said it, using religion as a tool to manipulate good people into doing evil things like withholding mercy from their weeping children, etc.

Many people hate living in a world in which things are complicated and decisions are difficult. They desperately want to delegate that decision-making responsibility to some other authority, because it's easier not having to think about this stuff. And plenty of religious and political figures are happy to step in and tell them what to do, and--SHAZAM!!!--simplify every nuanced moral choice to something clearly black-and-white. Don't think for yourself, just do what I'm telling you the Bible says. That bit about "Spare the rod and spoil the child"? I won't confuse you with the notion that the rod of leadership was used for guidance and protection, as in "Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me". I won't confuse you by explaining that an ancient shepherd would never risk injuring or frightening off his sheep by hitting them. Instead I'll just tell you that the Bible says to beat your kids, and you'll love me for letting you get your sadomasochistic jollies in a socially-approved way. Yeah! Let's bring ORDER to society, starting at home!

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby addams » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:31 pm UTC

johnie104 wrote:Ok, so apparantly the authors have a website. This is one of the articles: http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/too-young-to-spank/?topic_slug=art-of-child-training
I must say, if you ignore the innane biblical quotations and the general feeling of "look at me, I have authority", then this advice seems "more sensible" then what the OP article seems to imply. I haven't read the whole article (I was cringing too much at the biblical stuff), but the idea that small children don't have an idea of the difference between right and wrong, is actually quite sensible.

Some small children may not know the difference between right and wrong.
To say that no small child knows is a wrong statement.

I knew. It was easy for me. My brother knew, too.
I have met small children that know.

I have met small children that don't know for sure.
They will ask, or look at an adult or other child for guidance.
But, they seem to know the difference between right and wrong.

I have seen small children that don't have a clue some lean a bit toward the wrong.
To beat that out of a child is impossible. To beat that into a child is impossible, too.

It is like attempting to beat the meaness into a dog. Some dogs will not turn mean, no matter what you do to them.
Some take to it like a duck to water. People are like that, too.

I firmly believe it is both nuture and nature.
A Large Golden Retrever is a lot of dog. They do not tend to be dangerous, under most conditions.
A Rottwiler is a lot of dog. The do not tend to be dangerous under, most conditions.
One of those Doberman Pinchers can be such a good dog. One of those will lose its temper, easy peasy.

I will mussle a Dobie to be on the safe side. I will leave a mussel on it, too.
I might take a mussel off a Goldern. I might be sorry, too.

We must get to know one another. We must have some rules that no one breaks.
Those are called Secular Laws. People break Secular Laws, but there are laws. right?

When people want to live together in Peace, they need a few Rules.
That is what Kinderdarn Rules are. Good advice for a family, an office, a town. Why not?

The following are the Kindergarden Rules.
http://www.kalimunro.com/learned_in_kindergarten.html
The first time I read them, I knew they were right, not wrong.

Of course, we must consider the conditions and not be too ridged.
The rule about flushing got edited to, 'If it's yellow its mellow; It its brown flush it down."
We had a drought. Too much flushing meant no showers.

The rule about having warm cookies and cold milk got adjusted, too.
I did want a nap. I did not get one. Not while working.

Spoiler:
All I really need to know I learned in kindergarten.
ALL I REALLY NEED TO KNOW about how to live and what to do
and how to be I learned in kindergarten. Wisdom was not
at the top of the graduate-school mountain, but there in the
sandpile at Sunday School. These are the things I learned:



Share everything.

Play fair.

Don't hit people.

Put things back where you found them.

Clean up your own mess.

Don't take things that aren't yours.

Say you're sorry when you hurt somebody.

Wash your hands before you eat.

Flush.

Warm cookies and cold milk are good for you.

Live a balanced life - learn some and think some
and draw and paint and sing and dance and play
and work every day some.

Take a nap every afternoon.

When you go out into the world, watch out for traffic,
hold hands, and stick together.

Be aware of wonder.
Remember the little seed in the styrofoam cup:
The roots go down and the plant goes up and nobody
really knows how or why, but we are all like that.

Goldfish and hamsters and white mice and even
the little seed in the Styrofoam cup - they all die.
So do we.

And then remember the Dick-and-Jane books
and the first word you learned - the biggest
word of all - LOOK.



Everything you need to know is in there somewhere.
The Golden Rule and love and basic sanitation.
Ecology and politics and equality and sane living.

Take any of those items and extrapolate it into
sophisticated adult terms and apply it to your
family life or your work or your government or
your world and it holds true and clear and firm.
Think what a better world it would be if
all - the whole world - had cookies and milk about
three o'clock every afternoon and then lay down with
our blankies for a nap. Or if all governments
had a basic policy to always put thing back where
they found them and to clean up their own mess.

And it is still true, no matter how old you
are - when you go out into the world, it is best
to hold hands and stick together.


© Robert Fulghum, 1990.
Found in Robert Fulghum, All I Really Need To Know I Learned In Kindergarten, Villard Books: New York, 1990, page 6-7.


Ho Hum. Not to be argumentative, but some children work at learning the rules.
Other children work as showing they don't Have To!

We all have our stories.
Spoiler:
The people that are working at Not Following the rules are breaking some simple little rules.
What human being has not wanted to throw other people's stuff away? If it was in my way, I threw it away.

That does two things.
1. It gets shit out of my way.
2. It gets the attention of the owner.

If a child ends up with nothing, that child gets to start all over again.
The stupid creatures are growing. They need new shit all the time.

I will throw an adult's shit away, too.
Those people get violent, sometimes.

Do not leave it in my way. If it is in my way it is in a Public Space.
The Janitors throw stuff away or put it in the Lost and Found.

The lost and found is out by the dumpster.

Edit:
And; What the poster above this said.
Some people are, just, mean bastards.

Sometimes those people have other helpless people as victims.
Some of those victims are children. Some of those victims are adults.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Zamfir » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:04 am UTC

Ok, so apparantly the authors have a website. This is one of the articles: http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/too-yo ... d-training
I must say, if you ignore the innane biblical quotations and the general feeling of "look at me, I have authority", then this advice seems "more sensible" then what the OP article seems to imply. I haven't read the whole article (I was cringing too much at the biblical stuff), but the idea that small children don't have an idea of the difference between right and wrong, is actually quite sensible.

I am not so positive. For all the explanations, the main point of that article is still that you should swat 6-months olds with a ruler the moment they deviate from the right course of action. He talks about the differences between punishment and revenge and chastisement and training, but all seem to come down to same thing: hit them when they go wrong. Just hit the small kids quicker, because they easier forget the link.

He assures as that it works, that it produces pleasant and obedient and psychologically healthy and grateful children. Who apparently still need to be beaten for their lack of obedience into their teenage years.

So we watch him, knowing his propensity to selfish compulsion. When he seizes his bowl with intentions of dumping it, swat the offending hand with a little instrument (light wooden spoon, rubber spatula, flexible tubing less than a quarter inch in diameter, or any instrument that will cause an unpleasant sting without leaving any marks). As you swat the offending hand, say “No” in a normal commanding voice. The tone is more important than the word―not angry―but decisive. Children understand the temperament in your tone before they are born, and will recognize it. This swat is not punishment. Probably, it will not even cause the little guy to cry. He will be shocked and stop any action in which he is engaged. Explain to him that he is not to throw his food onto the floor. If he again makes an attempt, swat his hand again and say, no. The third time is the charm. He now knows that “No” uttered in a commanding tone, is something serious. He will not try that stunt again—at least not for this meal.
Understand well, if he has already dumped his food onto the floor, it is too late to swat him. He will not make the intellectual association, and any spanking would then be “punishment” for past deeds, entirely counterproductive for a small child.
Let's imagine that same scene, but without the swatting. So the parents say 'no' in a commanding voice when the kids starts to turn their plate, but quietly put the plate back when it's turned over anyway. Seems to work about as well. That is, it still requires lots of patience from the parents side, but that's clearly true for the swatting method as well. Is the swatting really there to train the kid, or to give the parent a little domain of power and authority? Calm and wise authority, even.

He talks a lot about defiance. You mention the 'look I have authority' feeling as a stylistic point, but it strikes me as more than that. The whole article is about asserting authority of parents, and assuring the obedience of children. It's a dangerous attitude, because parents are those same fallible people we know them to be in the adult world. But once defiance is the main sin to be punished/trained, it becomes a one way practice: you are always right. Even the kid had a point, they were still defiant, and therefore wrong anyway.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:45 pm UTC

Side conversation: Wicca has dieties and rules. Maybe not nearly so many(or as standardized) as more established religions, but some nonetheless. I'm not really an expert on non-wiccan pagan religions. They seem to be extremely niche and varied. *shrug*

davidstarlingm wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Slate has a long and fairly detailed piece looking at this case specifically, as well as interviews from several adoptive children in different families with similar sorts of experiences. I'll throw on a trigger warning if you aren't really comfortable reading about stories of child abuse.

The piece makes the argument that the Williams is symptomatic of broader problems in the adoption system--parents are poorly vetted by adoption agencies and receive little-to-no pre-adoption training or support; there are no limits to the number of children an adoptive family may take, and parents may be unable to provide adequate care; there is little follow-up on the welfare of the children post-adoption by the adoption agencies, CPS, or any appropriate authorities; even when there are complaints, CPS seems reluctant to get involved; government is unable or unwilling to provide support, and nobody is collecting data about anything. It's a recipe for disaster at pretty much every level.

I have no idea how my family was ever permitted to adopt.

My parents had already been turned down for domestic adoption. So, yay, international adoption! Get a bevy of black kids who need educated. Hurrah.


My family did fostering, and ya, they followed this sort. My mom liked to cook, and the assigned social worker was...very fat. They got along famously. I would not describe my family as an ideal foster family, really.

CorruptUser wrote:But it costs $25k to adopt a kid in the US ($40k if the kid is white); where is this money going, if not background screenings?


Well, as for where the money goes...beauracracy, mostly. That's easy. Lots of mostly useless beauracracy.

However, it isn't quite as simple as just background screenings, either. There's still the issue of there being a lot of messed up families out there, too. Is it moral to stick a kid in a problematic family if that's what's available right now, and where he's coming from is even worse? Or do you leave him there and hope for a more ideal situation down the road? Sometimes you have to work with what you've got.

The issue of underpaid social workers is there, to be sure...but how does it cost 25-40k and the social workers are being paid...possibly less than that? That implies utterly terrible efficiency.

johnie104 wrote:Ok, so apparantly the authors have a website. This is one of the articles: http://nogreaterjoy.org/articles/too-young-to-spank/?topic_slug=art-of-child-training
I must say, if you ignore the innane biblical quotations and the general feeling of "look at me, I have authority", then this advice seems "more sensible" then what the OP article seems to imply. I haven't read the whole article (I was cringing too much at the biblical stuff), but the idea that small children don't have an idea of the difference between right and wrong, is actually quite sensible.


It isn't AS terrible as some have made it out to be, yeah. However, some of the stuff is still bad enough as is. The heavy emphasis on authority promotes an authoritarian view where disobeying you is intrinsicly wrong...and you are automatically justified in "correcting" them. The attitude that authority justifies itself is a very dangerous one. Imagine if we took that view with government...well, some do, and the results are pretty horrible. You need moderation. You need the concept of justified disobedience. You want to eventually train functional adults who do not rely on external guidance, not merely instill a willingness to follow orders. Punishment can be a part of teaching, but if it's the primary part, you're a crappy teacher.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby leady » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:46 pm UTC

I'm quite happy for parents to use this book, so long as when they are elderly and addled they are happy for the same treatment from their children...

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby sardia » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:54 pm UTC

leady wrote:I'm quite happy for parents to use this book, so long as when they are elderly and addled they are happy for the same treatment from their children...

That line never works out like we expect, for one thing, the future is so far away, and then it'll be someone else's problem.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby leady » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:16 pm UTC

Its quite possible I wasn't putting it forward as a real suggestion, but rather an extension of principle :)

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby davidstarlingm » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:19 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:Many people hate living in a world in which things are complicated and decisions are difficult. They desperately want to delegate that decision-making responsibility to some other authority, because it's easier not having to think about this stuff. And plenty of religious and political figures are happy to step in and tell them what to do, and--SHAZAM!!!--simplify every nuanced moral choice to something clearly black-and-white. Don't think for yourself, just do what I'm telling you the Bible says.

This, this, 1000 times this.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby cphite » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:16 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:How would you feel about a book called "Steal This Book" or "The Anarchists Cookbook"?


Both interesting reads. It's just information; what people do with that information is entirely up to them.

Or "Mein Kampf"?


Tedious, and the guy who wrote it was a real piece of shit. That being said, books like this should be available and read by at least some people because it's important that we have a reminder of what one evil madman can accomplish if people let him.

All three are available and legal.


As well they should be. The first two are interesting from an academic sense, and the third is - while less interesting in my view - important in a "we need to make sure this never happens again" sense.

The first two are explosives cookbooks, among other things, and I guess you know what the last is.


In regards to the first two, if someone is intent on using explosives in evil ways, there are plenty of sources of information. You can find almost anything in those books on the internet; or you can use almost any high-school level chemistry book. Personally, I think the type of person who's going to use the information isn't going to be swayed one way or the other by whether or not the information comes in a book.

At least in the US the preference is given to the widest freedom. This allows Snowdens leaks to be published in the New York Times, but also allows crap like that book to be published.


Given the choice between the government telling me what I can and cannot read, and the potential of dangerous information being out there, I'll take the latter every day of the week. In my opinion, having the government decide what information is good and what information is bad is far more dangerous.


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