1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

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1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:53 am UTC

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Mouseover caption: Theory: Smugness is proportional to the negative second derivative of TV ownership rate with respect to time.

So the rise would be attributed to people like Ray Bradbury or Bill Watterson, who thought TV was making us stupid, and fundamentalists who thought it was making us evil. Then around 2000 you had your nerdy types who sought out alternative forms of entertainment. And now with the rise of Netflix, iTunes... uh, Hulu I guess... you're starting to get people who just plain don't need one and aren't missing out on much either. I dunno; I think the smugness shouldn't start going down until around 2008 or so when those services hit the mainstream in earnest; pirates and people who think YouTube is better than everything on TV are pretty damn smug.
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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby rhomboidal » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:00 am UTC

It peaked around 2001 -- clearly, anti-Western-technology No-TV-elitist terrorist sleeper cells at work.

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby cjmcjmcjmcjm » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:14 am UTC

The difference between selling cable TV and insurance: one is a scam, but you're at least selling piece of mind, the other is simply a waste of money.
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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Wooloomooloo » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:35 am UTC

That graph might not quite be right - I can't really think of a time when proclaiming not owning a TV would have been just... neutral. I'd say there's a discontinuity there, when a vague embarrassment suddenly flipped into smugness, without passing through zero at all; or worse yet, some sort of "quantum region" when that statement was both decreasingly embarrassing (for some) AND increasingly smug (for others) at the same time - which means this isn't even a proper function at all...

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby BAReFOOt » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:38 am UTC

Correction: The upwards wave doesn’t rise as much as the downwards one, before it settles at neutral.

It was always more of a “Hmm… should I get a TV? *watches some TV* …Lol, for what? There’s only crap on TV.”.
Got a projector instead. We played Far Cry and NFS MW, etc.

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby addams » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:45 am UTC

We are going to be neutral?
For a while; maybe.

Then, the sine wave will continue with the labels changed.
Disgust to curious to fascination.

Will your children get a big kick out of watching YouTube on a Black-and-White TV monitor?
ech. That can never happen.

TV is so one way. We will soon say, "No." "No. You don't tell us what we think? Do you?"
Will we hear it on the News? So funny. What TV News Show will break the news?

"TV is unimportant. The People know. Talking Heads looking for honest work."
"This will end democracy." statement from the Orange brothers, Donny Trump and Bonner.
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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby BAReFOOt » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:47 am UTC

Wooloomooloo wrote:That graph might not quite be right - I can't really think of a time when proclaiming not owning a TV would have been just... neutral.


If you average out people who still live in the old world, and people who already lived in the future, you get zero. The graph doesn’t show an individual but the average.

But: Hallucinating smugness onto somebody because of the inability to deal with a feeling of inferiority doesn’t mean it’s real. I can’t stand losers like that, who think they have the right to project their self-hatred onto others.

The people I met who didn’t have a TV anymore in 2005 were just… “TV? Meh, let’s play this new game / watch this movie. I have some beer!” about it. Doesn’t mean there wasn’t big screens / projectors.
iTard drones on the other hand…

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Wooloomooloo » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:52 am UTC

BAReFOOt wrote:It was always more of a “Hmm… should I get a TV? *watches some TV* …Lol, for what? There’s only crap on TV.”.
Got a projector instead. We played Far Cry and NFS MW, etc.

Kinda agree on the crap part, but even handwaving certain issues like availability of a suitable projection surface, projectors seem to have certain issues that are showstoppers for me:
- I can get at least three decent TV sets for the price of one projector
- Don't fancy paying half of the original price every 1000 hours for a new bulb (and having to listen to the fan)
- I can watch TV fine in daytime - projectors can't actually project "black"

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby dalcde » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:54 am UTC

I don't own a smartphone
/me feels smug

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby BAReFOOt » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:57 am UTC

addams wrote:We are going to be neutral?
For a while; maybe.


Going to be? That supposed “smugness” was never seen around here. If Randall wasn’t British I’d say it’s an American thing again. TVs just went away, and got replaced by big PC monitors and projectors. Nobody felt the need to talk about it. Probably mainly because it wasn’t a fight of superiority, since 1. the stuff you bought was seen as something for your whole circle of friends, not just you. I mean what’s the point of having stuff if you’re all alone to enjoy it? And 2. people around here can be happy for other people, because we’re not egocentric sociopaths like people in the US. (Sadly, the cancer starts spreading around here.)


addams wrote:TV is so one way.


Reminds me of that story of somebody’s 4-year-old daughter digging through the cables on the back of the TV… When asked what she’s doing, she said she’s trying to find the controller. (A TV channel was on.)
Kids today expect that. They stop being passive-thinkers. And that’s a beautiful thing.

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Wooloomooloo » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:02 am UTC

BAReFOOt wrote:Hallucinating smugness onto somebody because of the inability to deal with a feeling of inferiority doesn’t mean it’s real. I can’t stand losers like that, who think they have the right to project their self-hatred onto others.

Inability to deal... WTF?!? I can obviously only speak for myself, but in my experience there's absolutely smugness there. LOTS.

Answering "Umm, no, I don't have one" to the question "do you own a TV set?" in a discussion on the matter is one thing. Gleefully proclaiming "meh, I don't even have a TV" at every opportunity when people talk about some TV show is as smug as it gets; and that's the attitude I've seen every time.
Last edited by Wooloomooloo on Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:04 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby keithl » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:03 am UTC

Theory: Smugness is proportional to the negative second derivative of TV ownership rate with respect to time.

I expect to see the png digitized and doubly-integrated into a new graph of "TV ownership rate" when I wake up 8 hours from now. Perhaps the Engauge Digitizer will work. Extra points for accurately deconvolving the pixel smoothing.

Note that the red line starts out about a pixel below zero. That may represent the embarassment of uttering a phrase like "I don't own a TV" in the year 1850, when the only people who might say such a thing would be barking mad.

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Djehutynakht » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:15 am UTC

I frankly enjoy the occasional bit of TV. And I like having it to turn to at sometimes for either background noise or "I'm sitting down, let me put on some kind of stimulant".

And I guess another thing I enjoy a bit is programming, for repeats. It lets me watch something more readily/not in the chronology of a massive list of episodes when they just sort of say "this is what we're showing". The only downsides being sometimes they tend to pick a select few "favorites" and increase their frequency to the point of Ad Nauseum.

In any case, TV, when handled properly, is good. But therein lies the caveat.

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby BAReFOOt » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:16 am UTC

Wooloomooloo wrote:Kinda agree on the crap part, but even handwaving certain issues like availability of a suitable projection surface,

Hint: Every flat (apartment) wall here in Germany is white-painted ingrain wallpaper by default when you move in. Barely anybody (esp. men) bothers to change that. You don’t see the wood chips when projecting on it.

I have brought my projector to a lot of friends. I have yet to had somebody who didn’t have a free wall like that.

Wooloomooloo wrote:- I can get at least three decent TV sets for the price of one projector

Total nonsense. My projector cost 1600€ back then. A TV set did cost about the same. And I want to see a TV set that does a bright 3-meter-wide image and can be carried to your friends to play games on it.

Wooloomooloo wrote:- Don't fancy paying half of the original price every 1000 hours for a new bulb (and having to listen to the fan)

Even back then, it was 3000 hours. On a non-top-notch model. Do you know how much that is? I still have the same bulb, over 10 years later.
And prices drop after 2-3 years. You know what that bulb costs now? It did cost 100-150€, when I last checked, five years ago.
Apart from the fact that I’d just buy a new projector anyway just like you’d have to buy a new TV if you bought in 10 years ago. As it has none of the modern connectors etc.

Wooloomooloo wrote:- I can watch TV fine in daytime - projectors can't actually project "black"

Yeah, because daytime TV is totally something I want to watch intentionally! :wink:
See, there’s a difference in culture. I don’t ever watch TV, just to waste time while zapping.
We play games and watch movies in the evening when friends come over. The curtains are closed while we watch something, and when they aren’t, we’re not watching anything.
In the daytime, I use my computer monitor.

Conclusion: Seems you’re living in a bubble of willful delusions (You can’t tell me you’re that badly informed.)… inside the bubble of people who still live passive lives and vegetate in front of daytime TV.
That’s not a projector’s fault. It’s a target group thing.

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby BAReFOOt » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:27 am UTC

Wooloomooloo wrote:
BAReFOOt wrote:Hallucinating smugness onto somebody because of the inability to deal with a feeling of inferiority doesn’t mean it’s real. I can’t stand losers like that, who think they have the right to project their self-hatred onto others.

Inability to deal... WTF?!? I can obviously only speak for myself, but in my experience there's absolutely smugness there. LOTS.


Or maybe just projection/hallucination.
The question is: Could you tell? ;))

But yes, e.g. in the USA I can definitely imagine pseudo-intellligent hipster types getting all smug about it.

Around here, behavior like that is pretty much unknown, since people would never get into a mindset that egocentric anyway.

Wooloomooloo wrote:Gleefully proclaiming "meh, I don't even have a TV" at every opportunity when people talk about some TV show is as smug as it gets; and that's the attitude I've seen every time.

Frankly, I have never ever in real life seen that behavior. In fact the only case of that was in that South Park episode with the Priuses in SF. I thought they were just jealous / hating Europeans again, like Americans tend to do. But I thought (and still think) most of it, being South Park, was absurd over the top humor.

If it’s not, then yes that is smug and idiotic self-harmful egocentrism indeed. (But to be fair, in the US, the other “side”, with its Ron Swanson mindset, is just as stupid.)

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I Don't Own a TV

Postby Eternal Density » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:29 am UTC

What counts as a TV anyway? My phone probably does, technically. It's certainly a superior viewing device compared to TVs of the past. But I watch what I want when I want, none of this 'live broadcast' nonsense.


There, was that properly smug?
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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby BlitzGirl » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:30 am UTC

BAReFOOt wrote:
addams wrote:We are going to be neutral?
For a while; maybe.

Going to be? That supposed “smugness” was never seen around here.

BAReFOOt wrote:Seems you’re living in a bubble of willful delusions (You can’t tell me you’re that badly informed.)… inside the bubble of people who still live passive lives and vegetate in front of daytime TV.

...Did the definition of "smugness" change while I wasn't looking?
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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby BAReFOOt » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:37 am UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:It lets me watch something more readily/not in the chronology of a massive list of episodes when they just sort of say "this is what we're showing". The only downsides being sometimes they tend to pick a select few "favorites" and increase their frequency to the point of Ad Nauseum.


And that it spoils the whole story. And that you never get to see them in order anyway, unless you actively free time for it at specific times at specific days every week, except some weeks where for some reason only films older than 30 years or grown men playing with a ball are shown. That is an insane concept to most people nowadays. “What do you mean I can’t watch it right now; best you can do is Farmer Wants a Wife??”.

Djehutynakht wrote:In any case, TV, when handled properly, is good. But therein lies the caveat.

What you just described as TV usage is self-harmful behavior in so many ways, so I’d definitely not call it good.

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Gargravarr » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:38 am UTC

I own a TV but only use it for gaming. Where does that place me on the smugness axis?

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby BAReFOOt » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:42 am UTC

BlitzGirl wrote:...Did the definition of "smugness" change while I wasn't looking?


Nah, it’s just that the whole world isn’t a copy of yours (or mine). There are nicer places. And places we can’t imagine because they sound unthinkably different. And that’s a good thing. :)

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby BAReFOOt » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:45 am UTC

Gargravarr wrote:I own a TV but only use it for gaming. Where does that place me on the smugness axis?


You own a big display, that randomly has some legacy functionality, like the ability to connect analog VCRs and non-switched-packet data protocols. Not a TV. ;)

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Gargravarr » Wed Dec 04, 2013 8:13 am UTC

BAReFOOt wrote:
Gargravarr wrote:I own a TV but only use it for gaming. Where does that place me on the smugness axis?


You own a big display, that randomly has some legacy functionality, like the ability to connect analog VCRs and non-switched-packet data protocols. Not a TV. ;)

Oh well. At least I'm on a trajectory to become less smug with time.

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby obarey » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:01 am UTC

Theory: Smugness is proportional to the negative second derivative of TV ownership rate with respect to time.


So, it is sinusoidal.

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Klear » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:09 am UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:The only downsides being sometimes they tend to pick a select few "favorites" and increase their frequency to the point of Ad Nauseum.


Not that it has much to do with anything, but I just realized "Ad Nauseam" sounds like a good phrase to describe annoyance at ads.
Last edited by Klear on Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:18 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Garnasha » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:18 am UTC

BAReFOOt wrote:Reminds me of that story of somebody’s 4-year-old daughter digging through the cables on the back of the TV… When asked what she’s doing, she said she’s trying to find the controller. (A TV channel was on.)
Kids today expect that. They stop being passive-thinkers. And that’s a beautiful thing.
Oh, hmm, wow. While I don't want to endorse TV (prefer books and other written media for non-interactive entertainment), that last bit... surprised me, let's keep it at that. Let's rephrase the last bit: Kids aren't interested in anything where they don't have a say in what happens any more. And that's a good thing?

Call me old-fashioned, but I think there's something positive/character-building about sitting back and just watching things unfold. It's how we react to most events in real life, unless you butt into every conversation you hear, every activity you see. If you get bored the moment you aren't participating, you're going to become very pushy and needy for attention, very fast. Bad idea.

Similarly, although I despise the christian cult (some of the saner subcults excepted), their church ritual did serve one purpose: children were forced to shut up and listen to something they didn't choose to. Patience, discipline and the art of being bored. Useful skills no matter what the setting. School, of course, follows similar patterns, but is more interactive (thankfully), so having a regular activity which purely forced you to learn to sit through it? Not essential, but certainly not bad either.

Note, all this might sound like a "kids these days" argument, which it shouldn't be, since those get refuted by simple meta-induction (it's ALWAYS kids these days, from the Roman days till now). So I'm not saying kids get those skills nowadays less than they did before. I do say they could do with more (not just kids, for that matter, but everyone).

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby time burglar » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:42 am UTC

Here in the UK we have our own special brand of smugness for people who have a tv, but no tv licence.

For those who don't understand the system (including most people in the uk, actually) the licence is required for the receiving of broadcast tv signals in real-time, whether it's to watch something immediately or to record it. So, if you only want to watch programs on iPlayer, or play dvds and video games then you can legally avoid this ~£150 a year fee. However, you will be treated as a terrorist for doing this - we have had letters from the licensing agency ominously informing us we are "officially under investigation". This agency has always tried to pretend to be some sort of official government body (they're just a subsidiary company of the BBC), so people tend to assume they have special powers and are allowed to barge their way into your house and poke around your stuff without a court order.

So yeah, I know the facts and I'm very smug about it :D

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Klear » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:57 am UTC

Garnasha wrote:Call me old-fashioned, but I think there's something positive/character-building about sitting back and just watching things unfold. It's how we react to most events in real life, unless you butt into every conversation you hear, every activity you see. If you get bored the moment you aren't participating, you're going to become very pushy and needy for attention, very fast. Bad idea.


So you're basically saying "Kids these days don't watch enough television"? O.o

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Xenomortis » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:59 am UTC

time burglar wrote: However, you will be treated as a terrorist for doing this - we have had letters from the licensing agency ominously informing us we are "officially under investigation".

You can inform them you don't need one.
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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby orthogon » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:11 am UTC

obarey wrote:
Theory: Smugness is proportional to the negative second derivative of TV ownership rate with respect to time.


So, it is sinusoidal.

Not necessarily. For Simple Harmonic Motion (i.e. sinusoidal variation), it has to be proportional to the negative second derivative of itself, not some other variable.

In this case it would be sinusoidal iff the tv ownership were sinusoidal, which seems unlikely. My guess is that Randall is assuming a sigmoidal uptake curve, with roughly Gaussian first derivative.
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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Monika » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:27 am UTC

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Garnasha » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:43 am UTC

Klear wrote:
Garnasha wrote:Call me old-fashioned, but I think there's something positive/character-building about sitting back and just watching things unfold. It's how we react to most events in real life, unless you butt into every conversation you hear, every activity you see. If you get bored the moment you aren't participating, you're going to become very pushy and needy for attention, very fast. Bad idea.


So you're basically saying "Kids these days don't watch enough television"? O.o
Refer to what I write above that. No, I don't think kids should watch more television. But video games are hardly better, and "they don't understand the concept of non-interactive entertainment" doesn't sound like cause for celebration to me. On the other hand, a kid saying "I'm looking for the deeper plot", with the implication "they don't understand the concept of entertainment consisting solely of easy plots, cheap laughs and bright lights", would be cause for celebration to me.

TV and video games are both easy forms of entertainment, and neither are likely to give good food for thought. But if barefoot's analysis is right (instead of, say, the girl having a game console at home, being bored of the TV show and wanting to switch to gaming without realizing the console and the TV are separate things, and not all TVs are hooked up to a console), if kids really can't deal with the concept of being non-interactive, that's worrisome in my book, regardless of the desirability of the particular non-interactive entertainment where that was first apparent.

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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Plasma Mongoose » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:40 am UTC

A lot of people still have televisions but not for the traditional reason of watching TV channels, these days, a TV especially if it's a big screen is used for watching bluray, video games or even as a computer screen.
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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby cellocgw » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:14 pm UTC

BlitzGirl wrote:
BAReFOOt wrote:
addams wrote:We are going to be neutral?
For a while; maybe.

Going to be? That supposed “smugness” was never seen around here.

BAReFOOt wrote:Seems you’re living in a bubble of willful delusions (You can’t tell me you’re that badly informed.)… inside the bubble of people who still live passive lives and vegetate in front of daytime TV.

...Did the definition of "smugness" change while I wasn't looking?


Yep, it sure did (he said smugly).

Maybe "SMUG" stands for "Smug Means Unjustified Glee"
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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby cellocgw » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:55 pm UTC

Plasma Mongoose wrote:A lot of people still have televisions but not for the traditional reason of watching TV channels, these days, a TV especially if it's a big screen is used for watching bluray, video games or even as a computer screen.


But... given that "television" as a word was coined to indicate a *system* which collects images in one place and broadcasts them to many remote places for viewing, it's really a misnomer to refer to a video display unit (often, these days, without even an RF receiver/converter included) as a television. Maybe we need to assign smugness ratings to people who have neither an antenna nor a cable data hookup.
Except nobody sounds smug saying "I don't have an internet connection in my house." They just sound lame (or paranoid :mrgreen: )
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Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Barstro » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:01 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:Maybe "SMUG" stands for "Smug Means Unjustified Glee"

I feel that the general popularity for the show "Glee" is unjustified. Having that opinion makes me smug.

sotanaht
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Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:14 am UTC

Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby sotanaht » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:33 pm UTC

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding a less common use of the term, but "Ownership RATE" sounds wrong to me. I would have just said "TV ownership with respect to time".

Anyway, I don't think the alt text is exactly accurate. Peak embarrassment in an individuals response should occur during a time period where everybody else is getting TVs and they feel left out. The greatest positive rate of change of the rate of change of TV ownership, or in practical terms the fastest increase in TV sales to new customers per capita, would have been when TVs first entered the mass market, as sales would have gone from "near zero" to "lots" almost overnight. People would not be embarrassed not to own a TV yet. Those who did own one at this time would possibly be smug for having the new thing before everybody else but since it would not be unusual to not own a TV would be very embarrassed.

That only makes the statement wrong however if we assume "embarrassment" is the negative of "smugness". Attacking only the smug half of the equation we need to look at where sales to new customers dropped the quickest. This most likely would have occurred when the market reached a saturation point where few people who could afford TVs didn't already own at least one. That "who could afford one" part leads me to believe that this point in history leads me to believe that this should result in peak embarrassment, that's usually the response when all your peers have something you are expected to have but can't afford.
Last edited by sotanaht on Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:51 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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davidstarlingm
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:33 am UTC

Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby davidstarlingm » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:44 pm UTC

My parents raised us without TV for religious and sensibility reasons, and I now find it incredibly difficult not to be riveted to a TV screen whenever one is visible. Everyone around me can walk by a TV without looking at it....but I can't.

I was still always smug about it, though.

ChaosEngineer
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:16 pm UTC

Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby ChaosEngineer » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:47 pm UTC

Why is it going down again at the end?


From the 70's-90's, almost all TV was formulaic crap and you weren't missing anything by not watching it. This was partly because of the nature of TV viewing: You couldn't count on people watching every episode, so you had to write shows so that the episodes were all self-contained and could be watched in any order. (TV of the 50's and 60's was also episodic, but back then the ideas were original...it took a while for the formulas to become overused and tired.) So it was reasonable for people of that era to say, "Nothing on TV is worth watching. I don't even own a TV anymore."

This changed around 2000, when the writers realized that they didn't need to follow the old rules - they could assume that viewers had the ability to watch the episodes in order, either by taping them to watch later or by buying a DVD box set of the season. This freed them to write more complicated and original stories. The shift arguably happened in 1999, with the airing of "The Sopranos", and then accelerated when streaming on-demand video became feasible.

Patrik3
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:45 pm UTC

Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby Patrik3 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:50 pm UTC

BAAAAAAAH I'm not sick, but I'm not well...!

inquestos
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:14 pm UTC

Re: 1299: "I Don't Own a TV"

Postby inquestos » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:21 pm UTC

Replace TV, with facebook/Smartphone, 1950 with 2005, 2000 with 2010, and you get the same result.

Needless to say I don't have TV/smartphone/facebook. I even registered here to say this. Who beats my smugness?


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