1321: "Cold"

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Vrishna
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1321: "Cold"

Postby Vrishna » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:05 am UTC

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Title text: 'You see the same pattern all over. Take Detroit--' 'Hold on. Why do you know all these statistics offhand?' 'Oh, um, no idea. I definitely spend my evenings hanging out with friends, and not curating a REALLY NEAT database of temperature statistics. Because, pshh, who would want to do that, right? Also, snowfall records.'

Actually, today it snowed for the first time this winter in my hometown. Nice.
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da Doctah
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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby da Doctah » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:11 am UTC

I've lived in Phoenix for thirty years, and in that time I've seen it snow here twice. The first time was in the middle of the afternoon, not in the dark of night, and in November, not the really "cold" period in January. Nasty slushy wet stuff that you can't even do the fun stuff with, like make snowballs out of it, but it was snow, and it did stick for at least a short time.

Cats were wandering around the parking lot looking really puzzled. I can just imagine what was going through their minds: "I'm eight years old and I've never seen anything like this in my life!"

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby rhomboidal » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:15 am UTC

Maybe I'm bigoted, but I always expect ignorance to come from the mouths of people wearing pom-pom beanies.

At least I've stopped carrying that pair of pruning shears with me everywhere in winter.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby Djehutynakht » Fri Jan 24, 2014 9:50 am UTC

The little pom things are a respectable piece of winter-wear.

Once it gets warmer... ehhhh. But I'll accept it if it's cold.


Yeah... it just doesn't snow like it used to... or maybe it's just that the snow seemed higher when I was shorter. That might also account for something.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby orthogon » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:01 am UTC

Vrishna wrote:Actually, today it snowed for the first time this winter in my hometown. Nice.

It snowed in Nice? :twisted:
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby Gargravarr » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:15 am UTC

It's amazing how often this idea comes up, that a local cold snap disproves global warming. There are perfectly normal people who think it's a valid point. Didn't they learn about averages in grade 4 or something? The argument is to climatology (and maths) as "if man came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" is to biology. The only appropriate response is to groan.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby Kit. » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:30 am UTC

Gargravarr wrote:The argument is to climatology (and maths) as "if man came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" is to biology.

Humans didn't come from monkeys. Humans are apes.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby alun009 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:34 am UTC

°F? What is that, some archæic temperature scale or something?

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby Invertin » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:34 am UTC

Kit. wrote:
Gargravarr wrote:The argument is to climatology (and maths) as "if man came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" is to biology.

Humans didn't come from monkeys. Humans are apes.

I'm not sure it's good practice to correct someone's example of something that is wrong.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby PolakoVoador » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:44 am UTC

alun009 wrote:°F? What is that, some archæic temperature scale or something?


For everyone on the sensible parts of the world: 0ºF == -17,7ºC

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby orthogon » Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:57 am UTC

PolakoVoador wrote:
alun009 wrote:°F? What is that, some archæic temperature scale or something?


For everyone on the sensible parts of the world: 0ºF == -17,7ºC

For the even more sensible, 0°F is about 255K; i.e. the reference point for Fahrenheit is 0xFF K. Hence the "F". :wink:
This means you can convert easily by taking the lower 8 bits of the Kelvin temperature, interpreting it as two's complement, and then, er, ...

EDIT s/F/K
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby Kit. » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:36 am UTC

Invertin wrote:
Kit. wrote:
Gargravarr wrote:The argument is to climatology (and maths) as "if man came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" is to biology.

Humans didn't come from monkeys. Humans are apes.

I'm not sure it's good practice to correct someone's example of something that is wrong.

Actually, it's an example of an appropriate response other than groaning. Which was claimed to be non-existing.

Spoiler:
And while an argument behind the question might be stupid, the question itself is perfectly valid. When we say "A came from B", we suggest that either A is no longer B or that B does not exist anymore. If A belongs to a monophyletic group B (such as apes or simians for humans) and other members of the group still exist, we use "A is a B".

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby Gargravarr » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:43 am UTC

Kit. wrote:
Invertin wrote:
Kit. wrote:
Gargravarr wrote:The argument is to climatology (and maths) as "if man came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" is to biology.

Humans didn't come from monkeys. Humans are apes.

I'm not sure it's good practice to correct someone's example of something that is wrong.

Actually, it's an example of an appropriate response other than groaning. Which was claimed to be non-existing.

I stand corrected. But I still think that a groan is the most appropriate response.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby CigarDoug » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:52 am UTC

Gargravarr wrote:It's amazing how often this idea comes up, that a local cold snap disproves global warming.

Actually, the emails admitting they are rigging the data pretty much confirmed it for me. Seriously, from a scientific point of view, starting with a premise (Man causes global warming) and rejecting all data that contradicts that premise is NOT science. Scientific endeavors do not generate heretics, religions do. Global warming is a religion.
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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby DennyMo » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:59 am UTC

I wish the St. Louis chart had extended back a few decades. The spike of <0 days inthe 80's would certainly seem to support 70's concerns about an imminent Ice Age.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby time burglar » Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:59 am UTC

Kit. wrote:
Invertin wrote:
Kit. wrote:
Gargravarr wrote:The argument is to climatology (and maths) as "if man came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?" is to biology.

Humans didn't come from monkeys. Humans are apes.

I'm not sure it's good practice to correct someone's example of something that is wrong.

Actually, it's an example of an appropriate response other than groaning. Which was claimed to be non-existing.

Spoiler:
And while an argument behind the question might be stupid, the question itself is perfectly valid. When we say "A came from B", we suggest that either A is no longer B or that B does not exist anymore. If A belongs to a monophyletic group B (such as apes or simians for humans) and other members of the group still exist, we use "A is a B".


I guess this is getting messy because of how the "if man came from monkeys..." quote is so horribly flawed in multiple ways.

My first thought on seeing this quote was to recognise the particular logical error of failing to see that species branch over time. There's this pervasive image of a fish that morphs into a crawly thing, then into some kind of primate, then a human, which conveys the impression of some single linear chain of species. So, I felt that this was the pertinent part of Gargravarr's analogy .

However, my second thought was "oh, and also that should be apes, not monkeys". This error is just a detail, but I think the impulse to correct it is understandable.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby time burglar » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:01 pm UTC

CigarDoug wrote:
Gargravarr wrote:It's amazing how often this idea comes up, that a local cold snap disproves global warming.

Actually, the emails admitting they are rigging the data pretty much confirmed it for me. Seriously, from a scientific point of view, starting with a premise (Man causes global warming) and rejecting all data that contradicts that premise is NOT science. Scientific endeavors do not generate heretics, religions do. Global warming is a religion.


Ahhhhh, let me see if I have some popcorn in the cupboard.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby CigarDoug » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:07 pm UTC

PolakoVoador wrote:
alun009 wrote:°F? What is that, some archæic temperature scale or something?


For everyone on the sensible parts of the world: 0ºF == -17,7ºC

You expect me to accept that your part of the world is sensible but uses commas for decimal points?
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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby Kit. » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:33 pm UTC

CigarDoug wrote:Actually, the emails admitting they are rigging the data pretty much confirmed it for me. Seriously, from a scientific point of view, starting with a premise (Man causes global warming) and rejecting all data that contradicts that premise is NOT science. Scientific endeavors do not generate heretics, religions do. Global warming is a religion.

Are you suggesting that scientific results should be hidden from politicians?

CigarDoug wrote:
PolakoVoador wrote:
alun009 wrote:°F? What is that, some archæic temperature scale or something?

For everyone on the sensible parts of the world: 0ºF == -17,7ºC

You expect me to accept that your part of the world is sensible but uses commas for decimal points?

Is using commas for decimal marks less sensible than using commas for thousands separators?

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby Carteeg_Struve » Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:44 pm UTC

The globe warms. The globe cools. I stand by the data that states that man's impact on the climate on a global scale is measurable but minimal at best. On more local scales however... yeah, mankind can f*** stuff up and needs to apply some common-sense in self-regulation (common-sense meaning a balance between needs to not turn every nearby river into a moving sludge pit vs. not having people unemployed and then starve to death to save the life of some obscure variation of wood-tick). Still, whatever mankind thinks it can do, mother nature can f*** us up more on scales our brains can't comprehend unless experienced directly.

I just wish the topics of climate changes would be recognized as variations in long-terms (decades and centuries) and REALLY-long-terms (tens of thousands of years) and HOLY-S***-long-terms (tens of millions of years). It's an important topic to be studied, tracked, and taken into account; but unfortunately it's being used as a political football to the point where extreme insane viewpoints on both sides are causing the understanding of what the data really means to simply be corrupted into manipulations for various political campaigns and funding of projects more meant to line pockets.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby rob » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:06 pm UTC

I am having trouble with the listed web site. Can anyone provide a link or help in obtaining daily highs and lows for the same time period? I would like to find a the temperture where the total number of days whose high temperture was higher than that point (the same as the number of days below 0) and graph the days in a simlar fashion.

I would also like to be able to do this for a longer time scale.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby sonar1313 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:21 pm UTC

I see the spikes on the graph come roughly every 11 years or so.

Sunspots. (Or, for the technical, the solar cycle.)

P.S. Fahrenheit is incredibly more useful than Celsius for measuring weather. 0 degrees: fucking cold. 100 degrees: fucking hot. "It's in the 20s" = bundle up. "It's in the 70s" = it's pleasant. You can give a ten degree range of temperature and people know what that means and what to wear. If I go to Canada and say "it's in the 20s" you wouldn't know whether you might want a jacket for a pleasant autumn day or whether it's going to be close to sweltering.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby dawolf » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:23 pm UTC

CigarDoug wrote:
Gargravarr wrote:It's amazing how often this idea comes up, that a local cold snap disproves global warming.

Actually, the emails admitting they are rigging the data pretty much confirmed it for me. Seriously, from a scientific point of view, starting with a premise (Man causes global warming) and rejecting all data that contradicts that premise is NOT science. Scientific endeavors do not generate heretics, religions do. Global warming is a religion.



You do realise that there is actually no evidence of data rigging, right? That quotes were selectively mined from the emails and taken completely out of context? That the well known "smoking gun" regarding a fix actually turned out just to be an example of jargon?


Or that a completely independent set of work was conducted, financed largely by the Koch brothers, analysing the data (and more) completely afresh, and came up with the same answers as the work you are disparaging?

It was called the Berkeley Earth Science Temperature Project and was run by a known climate sceptic, and financed largely by $150,000 of Koch money. The lead author changed his mind based on the data the project analysed.

The work can be seen here http://berkeleyearth.org/summary-of-findings

Have fun.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby cellocgw » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:23 pm UTC

CigarDoug wrote:
Gargravarr wrote:It's amazing how often this idea comes up, that a local cold snap disproves global warming.

Actually, the emails admitting they are rigging the data pretty much confirmed it for me. Seriously, from a scientific point of view, starting with a premise (Man causes global warming) and rejecting all data that contradicts that premise is NOT science. Scientific endeavors do not generate heretics, religions do. Global warming is a religion.


The trolling is strong in this one.
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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby BlitzGirl » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:26 pm UTC

CigarDoug wrote: Global warming is a religion.

Is Al Gore its pope? There should be a pope.
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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby dawolf » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:27 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:I see the spikes on the graph come roughly every 11 years or so.


Local variance of such a limited data set would completely swamp a small signal such as the solar cycle. Also, najor peaks appear (to the naked eye) to cover the period 1977-1984 and not before or since.

I don't see any link to 11 years anywhere in the graph.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby cellocgw » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:27 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:
CigarDoug wrote:
PolakoVoador wrote:
alun009 wrote:°F? What is that, some archæic temperature scale or something?

For everyone on the sensible parts of the world: 0ºF == -17,7ºC

You expect me to accept that your part of the world is sensible but uses commas for decimal points?

Is using commas for decimal marks less sensible than using commas for thousands separators?


Actually :oops: Use of any symbol for separating each tridecade (I just made that word up, I think) is deprecated.
Proper notation uses a blank space. E.g., 43 547 361{.OR,}543 784 3 .
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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby cellocgw » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:30 pm UTC

BlitzGirl wrote:
CigarDoug wrote: Global warming is a religion.

Is Al Gore its pope? There should be a pope.


Heretic! (TM) . The FSM don't need no steenkin' popes! Not even at the top of a NewPage.
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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby -mr. bill » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:36 pm UTC

I keep looking at my hand wondering how many days I can hold.

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Last edited by -mr. bill on Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:41 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby orthogon » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:37 pm UTC

cellocgw wrote:
Kit. wrote:
CigarDoug wrote:
PolakoVoador wrote:
alun009 wrote:°F? What is that, some archæic temperature scale or something?

For everyone on the sensible parts of the world: 0ºF == -17,7ºC

You expect me to accept that your part of the world is sensible but uses commas for decimal points?

Is using commas for decimal marks less sensible than using commas for thousands separators?


Actually :oops: Use of any symbol for separating each tridecade (I just made that word up, I think) is deprecated.
Proper notation uses a blank space. E.g., 43 547 361{.OR,}543 784 3 .

The space is a bit problematic, though, because it can cause the number to break across lines. And a non-breaking space is a pain to type and is likely to get rendered as &nbsp; (if not &amp;nbsp; or worse).
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby BlitzGirl » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:38 pm UTC

Welp, I don't think I can be part of a religion if it has no pope. Adios, global warming.

Culture of lies! Global cooling trend! Carbon conspiracy! Sunspots! There are icicles on my dog! LOOK AT THIS STUDY IT'S TOTALLY A REAL STUDY.
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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby Klear » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:40 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:P.S. Fahrenheit is incredibly more useful than Celsius for measuring weather. 0 degrees: fucking cold. 100 degrees: fucking hot. "It's in the 20s" = bundle up. "It's in the 70s" = it's pleasant. You can give a ten degree range of temperature and people know what that means and what to wear. If I go to Canada and say "it's in the 20s" you wouldn't know whether you might want a jacket for a pleasant autumn day or whether it's going to be close to sweltering.


I really have no clue what to make of this post. How is this any different from Celsius?

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby CharlieP » Fri Jan 24, 2014 1:55 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:I see the spikes on the graph come roughly every 11 years or so.

Sunspots. (Or, for the technical, the solar cycle.)

P.S. Fahrenheit is incredibly more useful than Celsius for measuring weather. 0 degrees: fucking cold. 100 degrees: fucking hot. "It's in the 20s" = bundle up. "It's in the 70s" = it's pleasant. You can give a ten degree range of temperature and people know what that means and what to wear. If I go to Canada and say "it's in the 20s" you wouldn't know whether you might want a jacket for a pleasant autumn day or whether it's going to be close to sweltering.


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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby drachefly » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:02 pm UTC

Klear wrote:
sonar1313 wrote:P.S. Fahrenheit is incredibly more useful than Celsius for measuring weather. 0 degrees: fucking cold. 100 degrees: fucking hot. "It's in the 20s" = bundle up. "It's in the 70s" = it's pleasant. You can give a ten degree range of temperature and people know what that means and what to wear. If I go to Canada and say "it's in the 20s" you wouldn't know whether you might want a jacket for a pleasant autumn day or whether it's going to be close to sweltering.


I really have no clue what to make of this post. How is this any different from Celsius?


You get almost an extra bit of information from a range-of-ten rough temperature. This bit can be important for choosing what to wear. That is all.

orthogon wrote:
PolakoVoador wrote:
alun009 wrote:°F? What is that, some archæic temperature scale or something?


For everyone on the sensible parts of the world: 0ºF == -17,7ºC

For the even more sensible, 0°F is about 255K; i.e. the reference point for Fahrenheit is 0xFF K. Hence the "F". :wink:
This means you can convert easily by taking the lower 8 bits of the Kelvin temperature, interpreting it as two's complement, and then, er, ...

EDIT s/F/K


bitwise right shift? A Kelvin is almost 2 degrees Fahrenheit.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby CharlieP » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:05 pm UTC

I invented (or, more likely, co-invented later) a new temperature scale, where 0 <unit> is absolute zero and 1 <unit> is the triple-point of water. So, for example, a temperature of 20 C (68 F) would be 1073.2 milli<unit>s. It has the scientific advantages of Kelvin, twice the "granularity" of Fahrenheit, and freezing and non-freezing temperatures are as obvious as in Celsius. I just need a catchy unit name.
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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby jigawatt » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:08 pm UTC

It's neat how if you look at the number of days below 32F, it's not nearly so interesting. More from about 1930 to 1980, then since the 80's it's been near, but a little higher than before the 1930's. crh.noaa.gov

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby CiDhed » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:10 pm UTC

I was born in 1984, lived in STL for most of my life. Screw this cold. Reminds me of that year I lived in WI. :evil:

-17*F a few weeks ago. Power went out, my house was 30*F before the power kicked back on. What a horrible day.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby Rombobjörn » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:16 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
Vrishna wrote:Actually, today it snowed for the first time this winter in my hometown. Nice.

It snowed in Nice? :twisted:

Nice. :-)

Kit. wrote:When we say "A came from B", we suggest that either A is no longer B or that B does not exist anymore.

White Beanie Guy came from St. Louis, so either White Beanie Guy is no longer St. Louis or else St. Louis does not exist anymore? :-P

CigarDoug wrote:
PolakoVoador wrote:For everyone on the sensible parts of the world: 0ºF == -17,7ºC

You expect me to accept that your part of the world is sensible but uses commas for decimal points?

The only things that aren't sensible in PolakoVoador's statement are the C equality operator, which isn't sensible even in its correct context, and the use of U+00BA masculine ordinal indicator instead of U+00B0 degree sign. :-P

By the way, "It is too cold." is a way of saying "I didn't put enough clothes on." without sounding like it's your fault.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby orthogon » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:22 pm UTC

drachefly wrote:
orthogon wrote:
PolakoVoador wrote:
alun009 wrote:°F? What is that, some archæic temperature scale or something?


For everyone on the sensible parts of the world: 0ºF == -17,7ºC

For the even more sensible, 0°F is about 255K; i.e. the reference point for Fahrenheit is 0xFF K. Hence the "F". :wink:
This means you can convert easily by taking the lower 8 bits of the Kelvin temperature, interpreting it as two's complement, and then, er, ...

EDIT s/F/K


bitwise right shift? A Kelvin is almost 2 degrees Fahrenheit.

I think it's a left shift, because I was going from Kelvin to Fahrenheit. Also I think a Kelvin is exactly 2.4ºF, so for increased precision you can right-shift as well and add the results. EDIT: sorry, it's 1.8ºF. As you were.
Last edited by orthogon on Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:45 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1321: "Cold"

Postby pixeldigger » Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:27 pm UTC

but i don't WANt to wear any clothes!


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