Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthanasia

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Izawwlgood
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:21 pm UTC

I don't see why the 'if a cure was discovered tomorrow/week/month/years/5 years from now, we'd/they'd totally regret the choice' contingency really matters. They are suffering now, and what they want is an end to their suffering. At what point are you willing to tell someone that they have to wait x more years for the potential of a cure before you'll recognize that you're just being a coward about letting them make the choice they want to make?

You think these people have stubbed their toe and are like "Oh damn that hurts, I wish I was dead"? It's incredibly cruel to the needs of the suffering to both downplay their ailment, and to say 'well what if a cure magically happens tomorrow?'.

I guess I don't believe my squickishness about anything should interfere with someone's life decisions.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:45 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:And again, it isn't your call, it's theirs.
Does this go back to your dubious claim that humans are simply things that can be owned? Because I'm really not on board with that idea.
Izawwlgood wrote:Or are you suggesting that because YOU can't/won't end someone's life, no one should?
I'm suggesting that if an action is absolutely wrong, then it's wrong to pay someone to do it for you. I'm not going to weasel out of the ethical dilemma by pretending that hiring a doctor to slit a man's throat is ethically different from doing it myself.
Izawwlgood wrote:Killing people who want to die is actually factually reducing the suffering in the world.
How do you measure suffering? I quantify happiness, and a dead human is in fact less happy than a mentally ill human. The greatest happiness principle is a pretty silly idea, but suicide simply doesn't add up even under it's misguided system.

Also, Iz, I think it'd be in everyone's benefit if we can agree not to accuse anyone of cowardice in the course of this debate. Given the topic matter, that could get ugly fast.

Greyarcher wrote:Heck, if John Doesmith said that eating cheese each day was necessary for him to consider life worthwhile, I could accept that.
Really? I wouldn't believe that for a minute. And if he asked for me to come hold his hand while he slit his wrists, I'd get him some psychiatric help.
Greyarcher wrote:When attachment causes us to disregard the happiness of someone we supposedly love, it becomes a selfish element and cannot be called "caring" or "desiring the happiness of the other person" at all.
Killing someone does not make them happy. Killing someone reduces their happiness to zero, forever. Fighting for a loved one's life is not disregarding their happiness, it's preserving it.
Zamfir wrote:If you exclude doctors from the process at all, you won't necessarily reduce ill-considered suicide attempts. It might be better to attract suicidal people to the medical establishment, instead of pushing them away.
However, as has been linked earlier in the thread, unassisted suicide attempts are prone to failure. So more people may survive to get the care they need if they don't get assistance.

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby somehow » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:58 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Greyarcher wrote:When attachment causes us to disregard the happiness of someone we supposedly love, it becomes a selfish element and cannot be called "caring" or "desiring the happiness of the other person" at all.
Killing someone does not make them happy. Killing someone reduces their happiness to zero, forever. Fighting for a loved one's life is not disregarding their happiness, it's preserving it.


It only reduces it to zero if it was positive (on average) while they were alive. You seem to be convinced that that is always the case?
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:05 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Does this go back to your dubious claim that humans are simply things that can be owned? Because I'm really not on board with that idea.
Der... wat?
Heisenberg wrote:I'm suggesting that if an action is absolutely wrong, then it's wrong to pay someone to do it for you. I'm not going to weasel out of the ethical dilemma by pretending that hiring a doctor to slit a man's throat is ethically different from doing it myself.
And on a few occasions in this very thread, it's been outlined for you why ending someones life isn't absolutely wrong.
Heisenberg wrote:How do you measure suffering? I quantify happiness, and a dead human is in fact less happy than a mentally ill human. The greatest happiness principle is a pretty silly idea, but suicide simply doesn't add up even under it's misguided system.
Uh, either by the individuals perception of how bad their life is, perhaps, but not limited to, a lack of happiness? Or a negative value of happiness? I doubt you also recognize that someone can be happy with their life but still want to end it on their own terms. See perhaps, Terry Pratchett.

I understand you don't feel suicide 'adds up', but again, the important thing is to recognize that something simply being squickish to you doesn't mean no one should be allowed to pursue it.

Heisenberg wrote:Also, Iz, I think it'd be in everyone's benefit if we can agree not to accuse anyone of cowardice in the course of this debate. Given the topic matter, that could get ugly fast.
No, I stand by my assertion that denying someone freedom because it upsets your precious sensibilities is pretty cowardly. You can allude to the fact that you find suicide to be cowardly all you want, but that's your can of worms to open if you wish. I will be very quick to call you all manner of different things if you do.

EDIT: Again, I have zero problem with you asserting that you find it morally objectionable and personally wouldn't be able to do so, or assist in, or whatever. But from the get go, you've been arguing against medically assisted suicide as being permissible.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby zmic » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:15 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I don't see why the 'if a cure was discovered tomorrow/week/month/years/5 years from now, we'd/they'd totally regret the choice' contingency really matters. They are suffering now, and what they want is an end to their suffering. At what point are you willing to tell someone that they have to wait x more years for the potential of a cure before you'll recognize that you're just being a coward about letting them make the choice they want to make?


Now you make it sound as if a person needs my permission to commit suicide, which is not the case. People don't need my permission, and they're certainly not getting it.

I don't relish being called a coward for nothing more than being opposed to suicide and wanting to dissuade anyone from doing it. Am I actually allowed to be opposed to suicide here?

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby zmic » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:25 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I don't see why the 'if a cure was discovered tomorrow/week/month/years/5 years from now, we'd/they'd totally regret the choice' contingency really matters. They are suffering now, and what they want is an end to their suffering.


Besides, what makes you so sure that suicide ends suffering. Do you have certainty that no aspect of our being goes on beyond death?

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Xeio » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:56 am UTC

zmic wrote:Besides, what makes you so sure that suicide ends suffering. Do you have certainty that no aspect of our being goes on beyond death?
About as certain as you can be about anything. Yes.

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby addams » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:07 am UTC

Xeio wrote:
zmic wrote:Besides, what makes you so sure that suicide ends suffering. Do you have certainty that no aspect of our being goes on beyond death?
About as certain as you can be about anything. Yes.

Yes. So?
Everyone dies.

Not everyone suffers.
Not everyone suffers the same.

It is not for you nor I to judge.
Eternity will have its way with each of us.

The way the Dutch arrive at an answer that is Peaceful, Dignified and Kind;
I am taking on Faith. Who knows if the Rumors are true?

Leave it up to the Dutch to stretch our hearts and minds.
They have a way about them. I went to a Musem of their's one time.

It left me Speechless.
Can you imagine?

The Issue of the Day, that day was Censorship.
As a knee-jerk responds I said, "No."

They disagreed.
They were correct,
Spoiler:
as fucking usual.


I think they are, most likely, correct on this one, too.
Spoiler:
Dang. Am I wrong, again?
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:58 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:Does this go back to your dubious claim that humans are simply things that can be owned? Because I'm really not on board with that idea.


Der... wat?


I think Heisenberg is referring to a discussion I had with him earlier where I argued that self-ownership is a core concept in understanding natural rights. Apparently I didn't do a very good job of explaining it.

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Thirty-one » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:14 pm UTC

zmic wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:I don't see why the 'if a cure was discovered tomorrow/week/month/years/5 years from now, we'd/they'd totally regret the choice' contingency really matters. They are suffering now, and what they want is an end to their suffering.


Besides, what makes you so sure that suicide ends suffering. Do you have certainty that no aspect of our being goes on beyond death?


This strikes me as a gamble to make for each individual. You might not want to try it, I might.

zmic wrote:Am I actually allowed to be opposed to suicide here?


Of course, but please realize that the people you want to dissuade from committing suicide are the people who will have to live the lives that they obviously felt were too painful or meaningless to carry on living. You're not the one "paying the price" for the continued life.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:26 pm UTC

EDIT: Link may be NSFW, contains racism.This line of argument reminds me so very much of this. You are of course entitled your opinion; as soon as you want your opinion to infringe on someones rights if when we have a problem. Perhaps I should remind speising and Heisenberg and zmic that medically assisted suicide being a thing doesn't mean 'as soon as a patient is unhappy we throw them in a blender'.

zmic wrote:Besides, what makes you so sure that suicide ends suffering. Do you have certainty that no aspect of our being goes on beyond death?
You can threaten my aura all you want. I'll again side with 'let the patient decide' and 'medically this is what we know, so hypothesizing without data is fine so long as you make no decisions on it'. That said, if a patient holds that suicide will take them to purgatory, only a very rule bending individual would hold that letting someone that they've given consent to terminate their life represent not suicide. Out of curiosity, do you feel spiritually responsible to convert everyone you know to Christianity? I wager no, but I'm curious.

I've always found that to be hilarious; when people follow the letter but not spirit of the law. Not hilarious, the other thing.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:04 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Uh, either by the individuals perception of how bad their life is, perhaps, but not limited to, a lack of happiness?

A depressed individual's perception of the value of their life is clouded by the disease affecting their brain. Why are you prioritizing the diseased brain's judgement over the healthy brain's?
Izawwlgood wrote:Or a negative value of happiness?

Happiness is aggregated over the course of one's life. Once experienced, it cannot be un-experienced. You can't have negative happiness.
Izawwlgood wrote:I doubt you also recognize that someone can be happy with their life but still want to end it on their own terms. See perhaps, Terry Pratchett.

I recognize that many people want to end their lives. I just don't believe they should.
Izawwlgood wrote:I understand you don't feel suicide 'adds up', but again, the important thing is to recognize that something simply being squickish to you doesn't mean no one should be allowed to pursue it.

If you feel bad about killing people, you may want to consider that your conscience is indicating that your moral framework needs adjusting. Having an adverse reaction to murder is not some sort of cultural taboo that needs suppressing, it's a moral imperative all humans possess.

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Mar 05, 2014 3:49 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:A depressed individual's perception of the value of their life is clouded by the disease affecting their brain. Why are you prioritizing the diseased brain's judgement over the healthy brain's?
Because we're not only talking about depressed people here, again, see Terry Pratchett. But also because depression is also a condition, not just a symptom, and againsauce, we should let the individuals decide what's best for them, of course, with counseling.
Heisenberg wrote:Happiness is aggregated over the course of one's life. Once experienced, it cannot be un-experienced. You can't have negative happiness.
You are free to use the terms the way you want, but none of what you just said sounds like a given to me. But sure; suffering is also aggregated over the course of one's life.
Heisenberg wrote:I recognize that many people want to end their lives. I just don't believe they should.
And you are completely within your rights to hold that belief. I'm not telling you to be happy about it or even to be the one ending their lives. I'm telling you to recognize their right to do so, their right to choose.
Heisenberg wrote:If you feel bad about killing people, you may want to consider that your conscience is indicating that your moral framework needs adjusting. Having an adverse reaction to murder is not some sort of cultural taboo that needs suppressing, it's a moral imperative all humans possess.
I'm not sure why you're being so obtuse about this; if someone was trying to kill me or mine, I would probably have very few to zero moral compunctions about killing them first, and I'm going to go out on a limb and wager that based on your post history you wouldn't either. Our cultural taboo against suicide is actually, I would say, a religious taboo. Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you are in favor of capital punishment?

Lets again be clear about this; medically assisted suicide isn't the same as murder.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:50 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Because we're not only talking about depressed people here, again, see Terry Pratchett.
Yeah, we are. As wikipedia says: "up to 60% of people who commit suicide had depression or another mood disorder." This thread is about helping not just Terry Pratchett kill himself, but also anyone with a mental condition, including a 63-year-old man with depression who was killed. This thread is very much about depression.
Izawwlgood wrote:But also because depression is also a condition, not just a symptom, and againsauce, we should let the individuals decide what's best for them, of course, with counseling.
Unless their decision-making abilities are impaired, assuming you agree that drunk driving is bad.
Izawwlgood wrote:I'm telling you to recognize their right to do so, their right to choose.

I recognize universal human rights. These do not include the right to kill a human, ever.
Izawwlgood wrote:I'm not sure why you're being so obtuse about this; if someone was trying to kill me or mine, I would probably have very few to zero moral compunctions about killing them first, and I'm going to go out on a limb and wager that based on your post history you wouldn't either. Our cultural taboo against suicide is actually, I would say, a religious taboo. Also, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you are in favor of capital punishment?
I apologize for the confusion. Despite being a complete asshole on these fora, I am also a pacifist. So no, I don't favor capital punishment. I'm the guy who complains whenever the US assassinates a terrorist. It's that whole "no killing" thing.

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Mar 05, 2014 7:21 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Yeah, we are. As wikipedia says: "up to 60% of people who commit suicide had depression or another mood disorder." This thread is about helping not just Terry Pratchett kill himself, but also anyone with a mental condition, including a 63-year-old man with depression who was killed. This thread is very much about depression.
Izawwlgood wrote:Because we're not only talking about depressed people here, again, see Terry Pratchett.
Since you quote sniped out the part where I answered;
Izawwlgood wrote:But also because depression is also a condition, not just a symptom, and againsauce, we should let the individuals decide what's best for them, of course, with counseling.
No one is saying 'Depressed people want to die, and we should let all of them, right now, boom, here!'. You seem to continually/conveniently be leaving out the part where they're counseled. But let me ask you, say someone has struggled with depression their entire life, and at the age of 50, has decided that enoughs enough. Are you going to say 'you're just depressed, you aren't thinking rationally!' and deny them the right to end their life? I mean, I know your answer is yes, but I think that's terribly unreasonable. These aren't people who have just stubbed their toes and decided they can't handle it. These are human beings who have struggled for their entire lives to come to terms with a condition that isn't going away, is perpetually interfering with their ability to be happy, and for which there is no magic pill that turns that frown upsidedown. I'm not saying hand them a razor blade and be done with it, but you need to understand that these people are not reaching these decisions willynilly.
Heisenberg wrote:Unless their decision-making abilities are impaired, assuming you agree that drunk driving is bad.
So, again, say their decision making abilities are impaired; how do you propose these people recognize happiness? It seems a really unreasonable double standard; you want them to be prevented from ending their life because their emotional state is compromised, but you also don't recognize that their emotional state is compromised and they may actually factually be unable to experience happiness, or rather, the opposite of happiness is what they are predominantly experiencing. They're suffering.
Heisenberg wrote:I recognize universal human rights. These do not include the right to kill a human, ever.
I would never wish violence on anyone, but in light of this, I even more strongly hope you never experience violence. That said, since you're ignoring it again;
Izawwlgood wrote:Lets again be clear about this; medically assisted suicide isn't the same as murder.


Heisenberg wrote:I apologize for the confusion. Despite being a complete asshole on these fora, I am also a pacifist. So no, I don't favor capital punishment. I'm the guy who complains whenever the US assassinates a terrorist. It's that whole "no killing" thing.
Nono, please, the mistake was mine and I apologize for confusing your position on the matter.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:23 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:No one is saying 'Depressed people want to die, and we should let all of them, right now, boom, here!'. You seem to continually/conveniently be leaving out the part where they're counseled.
So who makes the decision? The depressed person? Or the counselor?
Izawwlgood wrote:I'm not saying hand them a razor blade and be done with it, but you need to understand that these people are not reaching these decisions willynilly.
I understand that, but I get concerned when people talk about enabling anyone who can't envision a happy future to commit suicide because my (very basic) understanding of depression indicates that its victims can think they'll never be happy again and, in fact, be happy week/months/years later. If you're trying to value a depressed person's future, the depressed person is not a reliable source.
Izawwlgood wrote:So, again, say their decision making abilities are impaired; how do you propose these people recognize happiness? It seems a really unreasonable double standard; you want them to be prevented from ending their life because their emotional state is compromised, but you also don't recognize that their emotional state is compromised and they may actually factually be unable to experience happiness, or rather, the opposite of happiness is what they are predominantly experiencing. They're suffering.
I recognize and acknowledge that these people aren't happy, I don't think they should be held responsible for being unhappy, and I don't consider their death to make them any happier. As a society we have a responsibility to care for and try to heal these people.
Izawwlgood wrote:That said, since you're ignoring it again;
Izawwlgood wrote:Lets again be clear about this; medically assisted suicide isn't the same as murder.

Because... different paperwork? Ethically, it's the same dilemma as murder. If you believe murder is justified in some scenarios, it follows that you believe suicide is justified in similar scenarios. Call me crazy, I don't believe either is justified.

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:49 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Because... different paperwork? Ethically, it's the same dilemma as murder. If you believe murder is justified in some scenarios, it follows that you believe suicide is justified in similar scenarios. Call me crazy, I don't believe either is justified.


The obvious difference being that assisted suicide is being done with the consent of the people involved. As Izawwlgood (I think it was) noted earlier, this is kind of like saying that consensual sex and rape are the same thing. Or that a voluntary kidney transplant is the same as knocking someone out and harvesting their organs. It is perfectly consistent to believe that murder is never okay and also believe that there is nothing wrong with assisted suicide, in much the same way that you can believe that rape is never okay and also believe that there is nothing wrong with sex between consenting adults.

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Heisenberg » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:03 pm UTC

Why is that rationale only used in the narrow context of people who are terminally ill (or in this case, just ill)? Wouldn't that mean that any human could consent to being killed? Would you support a group who hunted humans, provided that those humans had first consented to be hunted and killed?

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Thirty-one » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:22 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:Because we're not only talking about depressed people here, again, see Terry Pratchett.
Yeah, we are. As wikipedia says: "up to 60% of people who commit suicide had depression or another mood disorder." This thread is about helping not just Terry Pratchett kill himself, but also anyone with a mental condition, including a 63-year-old man with depression who was killed. This thread is very much about depression.


He was a 63 year-old man who didn't have a life outside of his work, didn't see one happening, and was going to be out of a job (the only thing up until then that had given him any feeling of it all being worthwhile, presumably). Sometimes being depressed isn't entirely unwarranted. No one killed someone's jolly grandpa here. It was a man who had clearly given life a go, for a good while.

If you don't support his right to take his own life though, obviously there will be no convincing you that he can have someone else do it.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:22 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Why is that rationale only used in the narrow context of people who are terminally ill (or in this case, just ill)? Wouldn't that mean that any human could consent to being killed? Would you support a group who hunted humans, provided that those humans had first consented to be hunted and killed?


I believe that it would be within their rights to do so, yes. As long as they aren't harming anyone else and all parties involved have informed consent, what's the problem?

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:53 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:I understand that, but I get concerned when people talk about enabling anyone who can't envision a happy future to commit suicide because my (very basic) understanding of depression indicates that its victims can think they'll never be happy again and, in fact, be happy week/months/years later. If you're trying to value a depressed person's future, the depressed person is not a reliable source.
So... Assuming happiness and unhappiness are aggregated... And a depressed person is accumulating a lifetime of depression... You're going to tell them that because they're depressed, they aren't a valid indicator of whether or not they'll be depressed in the future, AND, condemn them to it? That seems pretty cruel to me.

Heisenberg wrote:As a society we have a responsibility to care for and try to heal these people.
I agree; sometimes caring and healing means ending. Humans aren't pets, but just as it is ethical to put down a suffering pet, so too is it ethical to allow suffering humans the right to end their suffering.

I know you're fixated on depression, because you don't understand how depressed people could reasonably want to end their lives, but what about people with locked in syndrome? What about chronic sufferers of fibromyalgia? What about people diagnosed with early onset [neurodegenerative disorder]? I'm just wondering if there's anything, ANYTHING AT ALL that you can understand medically assisted death being a humane, responsible, ethically righteous option for. And please, please focus on the word 'option' here. No one is suggesting we kill everyone suffering from these conditions. Just like no pro-choice or gay rights activist is suggesting we abort all the babies or everyone marries someone of the same gender.

Heisenberg wrote:Because... different paperwork? Ethically, it's the same dilemma as murder. If you believe murder is justified in some scenarios, it follows that you believe suicide is justified in similar scenarios. Call me crazy, I don't believe either is justified.
I'm so confused at this point how you are maintaining this. As others have pointed out, 'ending another persons life' is not as black and white enterprise of good/evil. This is like, freshman philosophy level conversation matter; I don't think you're unintelligent, I'm just surprised to hear anyone actually factually suggesting that ending a life no matter the circumstances is wrong. I went to an outrageously hippydippy college program, and even most of those pacifists recognized that nothing, not even ending a life, is a black and white. I'm not trying to be rude, but can you respond to the numerous points it's been explained to you why there are exceptions to consider? You've so far quote snipped all of them away.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby zmic » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:58 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I'll again side with 'let the patient decide'


There are also people who "like" to cut themselves with razorblades. I hope we can agree that this is a psychiatric disorder. Are we supposed to assist with this also? Should the doctor provide the razor blades? Or maybe he can do the cutting himself -- it will be much more professional.

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:29 am UTC

I'm not a psychologist, so, I'll resort to the condition vs symptom. Also, since there's something ultimately addictive about cutting, it's been shown that providing clean needles for heroine addicts is safer, so, maybe sure, we should provide sterile blades and teach them how to clean their wounds.

The thing I think you're forgetting here is that we can treat self-harmers by addressing their underlying issues. The same cannot be said of the terminally ill, severe depression, any of the disorders I linked earlier. So, ultimately, I find your example of enabling self-harmers to be a red herring.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby addams » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:45 am UTC

Heisenberg wrote:Why is that rationale only used in the narrow context of people who are terminally ill (or in this case, just ill)? Wouldn't that mean that any human could consent to being killed? Would you support a group who hunted humans, provided that those humans had first consented to be hunted and killed?

oops.
I couldn't help it.

I thought it.
Why should I suffer in silence?

Thinking about, "What conditions make hunting human, ok?"
Hunting Human?
Spoiler:
Like the televised hunt of Donner.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe ... nd_manhunt

Or; The Seal Six thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_Team_ ... _Bin_Laden

Fiction? Maybe.

Those people did not calmly and with dignity, bid, "Adieu."


Is that StrawMan?
I am such a sucker for the overstated position.

Would I support hunting humans?
umm. I like that signed consent part.
Let's get some of that for us.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:54 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:I believe that it would be within their rights to do so, yes. As long as they aren't harming anyone else and all parties involved have informed consent, what's the problem?

I don't for a minute believe that you would hunt humans for sport. I'm not taking that bait.
Izawwlgood wrote:So... Assuming happiness and unhappiness are aggregated... And a depressed person is accumulating a lifetime of depression... You're going to tell them that because they're depressed, they aren't a valid indicator of whether or not they'll be depressed in the future, AND, condemn them to it? That seems pretty cruel to me.
I'm not assuming that. I'm assuming that happiness is aggregated and unhappiness is the absence of happiness. And I'm not condemning anyone to anything. I'm really enjoying all of these verbs you're employing to suggest that me sitting here in a chair, not helping you kill yourself, is somehow equivalent to actively harming you.
Izawwlgood wrote:I agree; sometimes caring and healing means ending. Humans aren't pets, but just as it is ethical to put down a suffering pet, so too is it ethical to allow suffering humans the right to end their suffering.
There's a pretty big difference between healing and killing. If you don't understand that difference, I hope you aren't in the medical profession. And I'm sure you don't need examples to understand how something that's ethical to do to a dog is not necessarily ethical to do to a human.
Izawwlgood wrote: I'm not trying to be rude, but can you respond to the numerous points it's been explained to you why there are exceptions to consider?
I would love for there to be exceptions to the prohibition on killing. But there aren't. It IS black and white. Don't kill people. This moral imperative trumps other considerations regarding happiness, punishment, defense, etc. It's this new thing called nonviolence.

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:07 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:I'm not assuming that. I'm assuming that happiness is aggregated and unhappiness is the absence of happiness. And I'm not condemning anyone to anything. I'm really enjoying all of these verbs you're employing to suggest that me sitting here in a chair, not helping you kill yourself, is somehow equivalent to actively harming you.
And I think you're wrong about that. Unhappiness is not merely the absence of happiness. Depression is not 'the absence of smiles'. I think you should read a lot more about the topic.

To the latter, we've been over this; no one is asking YOU to assist in the suicide, but you're actively sitting in your chair saying you would DENY other people the right to pursue medically assisted suicide. Please make your position clear; if you are alright with other people pursuing medically assisted suicide and doctors somewhere assisting them, but you yourself disagree with the practice and would not pursue one yourself, then we have nothing else to discuss! But, and I believe this is your position, if you are saying that you would pursue removing the ability of other people to pursue medically assisted suicide, to make physicians who assist in said suicides guilty in the eyes of the law as murderers, then I think we have more to talk about, namely, how you are actively harming people who are suffering by denying them a release from their suffering.

Heisenberg wrote:There's a pretty big difference between healing and killing. If you don't understand that difference, I hope you aren't in the medical profession. And I'm sure you don't need examples to understand how something that's ethical to do to a dog is not necessarily ethical to do to a human.
Oh, so this is black and white now? There is a big difference, but sometimes killing is how you heal someone, because you end their suffering. If someone has a gangrenous leg, you cut it off.

I'm sure you don't need examples of why eliminating the suffering in another living being is the ethically responsible thing to do?

Heisenberg wrote: would love for there to be exceptions to the prohibition on killing. But there aren't. It IS black and white. Don't kill people. This moral imperative trumps other considerations regarding happiness, punishment, defense, etc. It's this new thing called nonviolence.
I'm glad you've established your moral position so thoroughly. I trust you recognize that not everyone follows it, that not everyone agrees with it, and that foisting it on others is pretty cowardly.

Anything about any of the other myriad points I or others have made?
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Heisenberg » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:17 pm UTC

All right. I appealed to you for a civil discourse. Apparently you're not interested. Have a good day!

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:20 pm UTC

If you think this isn't civil discourse, I urge you to remember that you've failed to respond to the points being made against your repeated and unsupported positions. Sorry if you find disagreement uncivil!
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby zmic » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:47 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:To the latter, we've been over this; no one is asking YOU to assist in the suicide, but you're actively sitting in your chair saying you would DENY other people the right to pursue medically assisted suicide. Please make your position clear; if you are alright with other people pursuing medically assisted suicide and doctors somewhere assisting them, but you yourself disagree with the practice and would not pursue one yourself, then we have nothing else to discuss! But, and I believe this is your position, if you are saying that you would pursue removing the ability of other people to pursue medically assisted suicide, to make physicians who assist in said suicides guilty in the eyes of the law as murderers, then I think we have more to talk about, namely, how you are actively harming people who are suffering by denying them a release from their suffering.


I'm sorry if you answered this before, but are you willing to administer the lethal injection yourself? You don't have to make the decision, just stick in the needle and watch the person die.

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:53 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:I believe that it would be within their rights to do so, yes. As long as they aren't harming anyone else and all parties involved have informed consent, what's the problem?


I don't for a minute believe that you would hunt humans for sport. I'm not taking that bait.


It was your hypothetical, not mine. Would I, personally engage in such behaviour? No. But if such an activity existed, and the participants all consented and nobody else was harmed in the process, I would tolerate it, yes. It's within their rights to do so. As I said earlier, I don't hold that there is a moral imperative not to kill under any circumstance. I feel that such an imperative probably leads to a lot more harm than it does good, and, except in the most privileged areas in the world, is at best impractical or at worst impossible.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: As far as I'm concerned, the essence of morality is respecting the rights of others, reducing human suffering, and improving human welfare.

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby zmic » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:57 pm UTC

It was your hypothetical, not mine. Would I, personally engage in such behaviour? No. But if such an activity existed, and the participants all consented and nobody else was harmed in the process


What if I like the person who is being killed? Does my harm count for anything?

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:01 pm UTC

zmic wrote:I'm sorry if you answered this before, but are you willing to administer the lethal injection yourself? You don't have to make the decision, just stick in the needle and watch the person die.
Personally, yes, because I feel it's doing them a service by reducing/eliminating their suffering, and I do not hold that ending a life is absolutely an evil act.
zmic wrote:What if I like the person who is being killed? Does my harm count for anything?
Why would you place your own enjoyment of the persons continued living over the persons wish to no longer live? What about the medical issues I listed previously? Don't you find it awfully selfish and cruel to tell someone that your fear of death and losing them supersedes the terrible agony they are suffering through?
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby zmic » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:14 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
zmic wrote:What if I like the person who is being killed? Does my harm count for anything?
Why would you place your own enjoyment of the persons continued living over the persons wish to no longer live? What about the medical issues I listed previously? Don't you find it awfully selfish and cruel to tell someone that your fear of death and losing them supersedes the terrible agony they are suffering through?


So apparently my pain about somebody killing himself is just selfish and cruel, and easy to reason away.

Then why don't you go the person who wants to kill himself, and tell him that his pain is just selfish and cruel, and easy to reason away.

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:39 pm UTC

Because it's his pain, and his life; it's his right to do with his pain and his life as he chooses. Not to be rude, but that seems obvious; this is the same sort of arguments you hear against abortion and gay marriage. If you personally hold abortions to be wrong, or gay marriage to be wrong, don't have an abortion or get married to someone of the same gender. But your right to an opinion ends when it interferes with another persons rights.

I'm not sure you understand; euthanasia isn't the answer to every sick or uncomfortable person. It's an option available to those who no longer want to suffer. But yes, to more fully answer your question; your suffering at the loss of someone is 100% irrelevant to that persons rights to pursue medically assisted suicide. I simply don't care about you being upset that you lost someone more than I care that person had the option to end their suffering, and yes, it is selfish to place your need of that person over their need to no longer suffer. I mean, I'm not trying to be rude or mean to you, but that's... like, quite literally one of the definitions of selfishness.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:26 pm UTC

zmic wrote:
It was your hypothetical, not mine. Would I, personally engage in such behaviour? No. But if such an activity existed, and the participants all consented and nobody else was harmed in the process


What if I like the person who is being killed? Does my harm count for anything?


Then you would be free to make the case that the harm caused to you should outweigh their loss of liberty in that instance. And, in Heisenberg's weird example of consensual human hunting, yes, I'd probably agree with you. But that doesn't mean that this would apply generally. As I said earlier, the morality of an action depends on context.

So apparently my pain about somebody killing himself is just selfish and cruel, and easy to reason away.


While this may not be true in all cases, it's been my experience that the pain experienced by the families and friends of someone who dies peacefully is far less significant and long-lasting than the pain experienced by those same people having to watch a loved one in agony for an extended period of time before death. Death brings grief, but also closure, and allows people to move on. Lingering suffering brings grief in perpetuity. I mean seriously, can you honestly say that you wouldn't prefer to see a loved one die peacefully in their sleep, rather than live another six months in constant suffering before their death?

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby addams » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:22 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:While this may not be true in all cases, it's been my experience that the pain experienced by the families and friends of someone who dies peacefully is far less significant and long-lasting than the pain experienced by those same people having to watch a loved one in agony for an extended period of time before death. Death brings grief, but also closure, and allows people to move on. Lingering suffering brings grief in perpetuity. I mean seriously, can you honestly say that you wouldn't prefer to see a loved one die peacefully in their sleep, rather than live another six months in constant suffering before their death?

What do we want for ourselves?
To die Peacefully in our sleep?
Like GrandMa did?

Spoiler:
Or; Screaming in Terror, like the passengers in her car?


Spoiler:
I couldn't help it.
You post triggered an Old Joke.

In my family there was Screaming in Terror when GrandMa was driving wide awake.
The woman never saw a Speed Limit she could not double.

She died Peacefully in her sleep.
There is No Natural Justice.

GrandMa's driving brought the existence of God into question.
And; GrandMa's driving Answered that question.

Spoiler:
Of course, there is a Super Natural God!
We lived. How else can you explain it?


Did you know mean people live longer than nice people do?
Spoiler:
Well…It may not be true.
It, just, seems like longer.


oh. Back to being Serious.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Zamfir » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:53 pm UTC

Izawwlgood, Heisenberg, zmic, you've made your positions and your mutual moral loathing clear. If you want to continue that for some more rounds, please do it elsewhere.

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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Thirty-one » Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:09 pm UTC

zmic wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
zmic wrote:What if I like the person who is being killed? Does my harm count for anything?
Why would you place your own enjoyment of the persons continued living over the persons wish to no longer live? What about the medical issues I listed previously? Don't you find it awfully selfish and cruel to tell someone that your fear of death and losing them supersedes the terrible agony they are suffering through?


So apparently my pain about somebody killing himself is just selfish and cruel, and easy to reason away.

Then why don't you go the person who wants to kill himself, and tell him that his pain is just selfish and cruel, and easy to reason away.


If he's in enough pain to want to kill himself, it might just be that he's in more pain than he's "inflicting" on you. It's not a duty of his to live on to keep you from feeling bad, is it? Because that seems to be what you're saying.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby addams » Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:24 am UTC

tisk. tisk. Thirty-one;
Are you attempting to drag them back in?
They got yelled at by a Mod.

You want them to get yelled at, again?
Entertainment for you?
Spoiler:
As bad as Jr. High School.


tisk. tisk Thirty-one.
The least you could do is be funny.
You did not even do that.
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Re: Nine psychiatric patients in the Netherlands have euthan

Postby Thirty-one » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:55 am UTC

addams wrote:The least you could do is be funny.
You did not even do that.


:oops: :cry:

In my defence, I didn't notice the name of the poster I quoted in the mod warning (so not only am I unfunny, but I'm a sloppy reader too (I've learned to live with both of those by now though)).
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