Beanish

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tresoldi
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Beanish

Postby tresoldi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:02 pm UTC

I am opening this topic to discuss "Beanish", the mysterious language from the XKCD Time comic. The language has been discussed on the XKCD Time individual topic (called "OTT" by its frequent readers, after "(the) One True Topic"), but it might be time to discuss it in its own thread.

Some links you might find useful:

My blog on Beanish: https://beanishlang.wordpress.com/
Beanish corpus on Github: https://github.com/tresoldi/beanish/blob/master/corpus.txt
If you want to ask me anything, feel free to send a private message or comment on my blog, I might miss it on the topics (particularly on the OTT ;))

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tresoldi
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Re: Beanish

Postby tresoldi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:34 pm UTC

Just to get thinks going, I'll copy-and-paste a comment I received on the blog, from "Vokietis", and my answer.

In short, do you think the Beanish script is an alphabet, a syllabary, an abugida, an abjad or something completely different? Opinions have ranged from a future IPA to a logographic system...

Vokietis wrote:I wonder if you ever considered the script to be an abjad – I mean, if it’s an abugida, there are rather few vowels and many syllables with standard vowels. Furthermore, your analysis indicated that the diacritics do not necessarily share properties such as +Vowel.

If it’s a syllabary, there are way to few possible syllables: We have 22 main symbols, which makes something like 5 contoids combined with 4 vocoids plus two extra symbols (semivowels or syllabic consonants), some of which can be modified by diacritics to maybe voice the consonants or raise the vowel sounds, but it remains a rather restricted phoneme inventory, so I think we can safely disregard syllabaries.

If it’s an alphabet, then the diacritics could really indicate voicing or devoicing (such as Japanese dakuten), presence or absence of glottal sounds in the onset (as Greek spiritus lenis and asper did), they could even modify the articulation of sounds in some less predictable ways (such as old Irish lenition mark or German umlaut dots, or like the dots in arabic letters that distinguish such unrelated phonemes like [b], [n], [j], [t], [θ]) – which would give us a rather complex inventory of sounds, reminding me of some Khoisan languages.

If it’s an abjad, ommitting most of the vowels and marking only the long ones, we’d have a rather average inventory of 22 consonants. The diacritics could mark the long vowels (given that the long vowel symbols are not part of the 22 glyph basic inventory) or be used to solve ambiguities. Try to imagine English written without short vowels (I’ll use the apostrophe for vowel onsets): ’t’s rathr ’eas ’s lng ’s “cts ’nd dgs” wll mean “cats and dogs” instead of “cuts and digs”. For the latter case you could include the vowels.


Thank you for your comment, Vokietis. Your reasoning is very detailed, you explained some points much better and briefer than I’d done — I’ll probably quote you later.

Regarding the diacritics, the statistical analysis indeed suggests a pure vowelness. Even if we consider Randall statement that the language was designed to be very different from English (which could mean just about anything, for example that there are lots of syllabic consonants), it is difficult to “close” the system (not to mention that the diacritics seem to work in very distinct ways, and only ᐣ and ᑦ are clearly related, possibly along with the ᐧ ).

Regarding syllabaries, I investigated the possibility when Randall’s interview on Linear A and B was published. I agree with you that the number of syllables is smaller than expected, and the glyph transitions don’t suggest they are syllable either (of course he could have a created a very rigid conlang in terms of phonology, perhaps even subscribing some phonosymbolic theory, but I find it extremely unlikely.

Regarding alphabets, you explained something I was meaning to write on the blog, as I said I’ll probably quote you. I actually think that the diacritics work the way you postulate and similar glyphs like ᔪ and ᔭ might be related (even though, it this particular case, there is no statical suggestion that they are). Maybe the characters and the diacritics, as many people have already suggested in the XKCD forum, are related to similar IPA glyphs: besides the more common features you mention (voicing/devoicing, place of articulation) they could, for example, indicate that the previous consonant is syllabic or that the following sound is pharyngealized. In fact, speaking of Proto-Indo-European, I was thinking if one of diacritics or even the glyphs aren’t the indication of some “coloring”.

I really hadn’t developed an idea as you propose in the last paragraph, I’ll think about it.

Once more, thank you very much for you comment, it was really helpful. I hope you’ll keep around! :)
My blog on Beanish: https://beanishlang.wordpress.com/
Beanish corpus on Github: https://github.com/tresoldi/beanish/blob/master/corpus.txt
If you want to ask me anything, feel free to send a private message or comment on my blog, I might miss it on the topics (particularly on the OTT ;))

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Re: Beanish

Postby Armeleon » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:24 pm UTC

I want to post a summary of my ongoing notes, you guys might find this useful. I have it hosted on a Google Drive page, and it is several pages long. It also includes my corpus, which is slightly different than the corpus on the blog. Here are the major differences:

--> ᔪᖉᔭᑫ ᕒᖚᐧ ᘊᓭᐧᑲᐤ ᑦᘈᖽᐣ ᔭ ᖆᖽᒣ ᓭᘖᑦ ᖊᘊᐤ ᕋᖗ ᖆᕬᖉᔭ ᘖᐣᖗᔭ, ᘊᓭᘖᔭᓄᐤ # frame 2728, UNCERTAINTY.MARK-DRY-_____ WHERE CASTLE.BEACH? _____ PREPOSITION _____? _____ PREPOSITION _____ WATERS? (This could translate as: 'Is Castle Beach still dry? What point is the tide at? Is the sea rising?', but that's just a guess)

--> ᕒᖚᐧ ᓭᔭᑦᘖ ᘛᖆᖚᘈᐤ WHERE _____ YOU-JOURNEYED? (This could translate as: 'From where have you Journeyed?'. Note the change from 3rd to 2nd person, meaning she is speaking directly to the travelers, which makes sense if you think about it.)

--> ᖉᔭᒣᘊᐣᘖᑫᖗ ᖽᘛᕋᑦᐨ _____ 2nd-POSS. (Note there is no confusing dialog about the leg. If the last word is 2nd possessive, it changes the sentence. A possible translation is 'They are your problem', but I just pulled that out of thin air.)

There are some minor changes throughout, but these are the three major ones. If you want some background, you can ask me for a link to my notes on Google Drive (for some reason this forum won't let me post it).

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Re: Beanish

Postby greb » Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:37 pm UTC

Tresoldi, thank you for your work on your blog. I'm looking forward to your next analysis on glyph transitions.

Sorry, I hadn't had much time to investigate your Lojban hypothesis, but nonetheless here are some of my thoughts.

I revisited the matter of how questions work in Lojban (you might remember my longish post about that :wink:). Sorry to repeat myself here, I just wanted to make a more concise argument. According to your hypothesis ᕒᖚᐧ might act as a general question particle for things that are not known to the speaker. In Lojban there's the particle ma that works that way, but its exact meaning is dependent on its position within a sentence. But if you look at ᕒᖚᐧ it seems to appear in the "wrong" places and its function is limited to location requests (ma is far more flexible than that). Although Lojban can use a particle (xu) for yes-no question in front of a sentence, it isn't a general question prefix like it exists in Beanish(ᔪ-). In conclusion: Lojban and Beanish questions work differently. Like you I think J's insights might be worth of consideration.

I also looked a little bit in the hypothesis that Beanish could've loaned words from Lojban. Luckily Lojban word morphology is very regular. As a consequence of that you can expect that most words (>80%) in an average text have a length of 2, 5 or 4, while lengths of 3, 6 and 7 are much rarer. This doesn't conflict with your findings regarding word lengths in Beanish. But nonetheless, a closer look reveals that the morphology doesn't quite fit (e.g. where is the glottal fricative you find in 4-letter Lojban particles?). Since we don't know much about Beanish phonology and possible sound changes, we can't neither reject or confirm this hypothesis yet.

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Re: Beanish

Postby lmjb1964 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:07 am UTC

Just visiting from the OTT to say thanks for doing this work! I'm afraid I don't understand a lot of what is discussed (I worked briefly in a Linguistics Department and only ever had a vague idea of what the papers and talks were about), but I'm eager to see what can be deduced about the language.
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Re: Beanish

Postby CobaltMouse » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:41 am UTC

You know, I'm not really sure that we can deduce much about how the speech sounds without any actual samples, and similarly, we can't tell much about how the language is actually written. My suggestion is that we stop trying to figure out how Beanish is written and instead treat the words as meaningless symbols to be analyzed mostly syntactically. Apart from the actual written makeup of the words and some context, we don't really have anything to go on.

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Re: Beanish

Postby Armeleon » Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:16 am UTC

This is true. I've been trying to work under the assumption that I know nothing about the actual phonological processes involved in speaking the language. For all we know, they speak one language and write another (which, while unlikely, is just as valid as any other hypothesis at this point). If we can parse the patterns in the given orthography according to the things we know about cognitive linguistic processes, we might just stand a chance of breaking the language down into meaningful parts and maybe, just maybe, associate a phonological system to the orthographic one. But even this will be almost impossible.

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Re: Beanish

Postby CobaltMouse » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:40 pm UTC

So have we just given up then? :\

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Re: Beanish

Postby ronaldkr » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:35 pm UTC

CobaltMouse wrote:So have we just given up then? :\

Not really. Going into phonetics is probably something we do not have any data for. However, we could mangle the words from the corpus (minus one-letter words, minus the known "ᘊ-" prefix) to extract common prefixes, roots and suffixes, hoping that we could establish some grammatical structure. However that will cost some time.

edit: I just found that Lojban has started something like this, it's in the Wordpress thing buried between tables, here:
https://beanishlang.wordpress.com/type/aside/.

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Re: Beanish

Postby tresoldi » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:22 pm UTC

My blog on Beanish: https://beanishlang.wordpress.com/
Beanish corpus on Github: https://github.com/tresoldi/beanish/blob/master/corpus.txt
If you want to ask me anything, feel free to send a private message or comment on my blog, I might miss it on the topics (particularly on the OTT ;))

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Re: Beanish

Postby azule » Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:17 pm UTC

Hi, tresoldi. I hope you still read your thread. I don't know how to converse new ideas with you on your blog. I mean, I'd like to post my own article. So, this place seems appropriate. What follows is basically from the OTT. It's review. I'll add new thoughts in another post.

I'm reading Tresoldi's Beanish language blog, catching up on the info I didn't (and still don't) understand about Beanish. I will learn enough to choose wisely the Beanish I am planning to use. I will likely make educated guesses in order to construct new words (which I will be needing).

The Beanish I've designed is partially culled from the work others have done. I am doing my own interpretation. I do not agree with all the guesses. In fact, I think I've already used one that may not agree with my interpretation.

I think that Beanish is a modifying language. It's been said that 3 is a prefix for big/large. Well, I think every part to the left is a prefix/modifier, and only the rightmost symbol is the base word. Take water, for instance. It's been written as sea and water, yet those are two different words (not just with a 3-). But, the base is the same, the last symbol probably meaning liquid. So "water" would be "fresh" water and "sea" would be "salt" water.

ucim wrote:(Maybe the sentence is right to left, but each word is left to right.)
You get the first quote for this thought. I've got it reversed (but same idea). I think it is sentence left-to-right, with words right-to-left. If I'm right then you're sorta right. :) Ok, actually, I mean that the words are constructed RTL, basically done with only prefixes (maybe compound prefixes).

I think it is very much going to be impossible to construct a verbal language out of it. But the point is to know what they're saying (not how they say it) so GLR has gone with symbol=meaning. We should be able to translate it (not transliterate (as they're not liter-- I mean, letters)).

I hope to GLR that Beanish is not logo-phonetic. It would be OK if the phonetic component was extra, but otherwise it's just garbage for my purposes. (Yeah, reading too much Rosetta-type stuff.)

Good catch, to BlitzGirl, where frame2692 has no punctuation. It's the only one. Don't know if it means anything. It could be a mistake. The only other place without punctuation is the map. Being that this is the same word as from the map maybe that's why.

tresoldi wrote:The greatest problem is still to figure out what kind of script we are dealing with. I did my best and played wirh lots of hypothesis: an alphabet, an abugida, a sillabary, an ideographic system... My biggest problem is that I still can't figure out the diacritics. In general, the script looks and works like an alphabet (and perhaps it is exactly an alphabet, in the sense that it is not a phonological representation), but for the diacritics. The first hypothesis in cases like this is that we are dealing with an abjad or an abugida (something that would make sense if the many little details that point to an infix morphology are not misleading us), but it just doesn't click and would make Beanish a "lenghty" language.

Spoiler:
I even tried a small experiment of genetic programming/hill-climbing/maximum-likelihood estimator of transcription from the Beanish glyphs to an English-like system, using the CMU pronountiation dictionary as a reference for the fitness, but you can guess it: the problem are the diacritics. My best guess is that they indicate phonetic features, but given that they are applied to both what I am pretty sure are vowels and to what would be consonants, either my hypothesis are very off or Randall read too much old Chomsky, namely "The Sound Patterns of English". But I still think it plausible: the most common diacritic could be a mark for 'long vowel' or particularly 'nasal', as we could almost expect if the language is indeed indebited to French. It could also explain how we can find combined diacritics, but not exactly why they seem to freely jump from right to left. Now, even if my hypothesis is right and they do indicate phonetic features, these features could still have a semantic value (I doubt it is the case, but think of something like "if the noun is plural, nasalize its first letter), and we are basically screwed. :)
Honestly, even after looking up abjad and abugida...I'm at a loss for what they are. (Note: I did that a mip ago.) But I assume all the styles are covered, from phonetic, to alphabetic, to rhombus, to who knows what...chinese. I think they are components, with one base word, with every other component being a modifier. The diacritics themselves are modifiers too. This may make it so the words don't get too long, as they aren't. Or, that's not how it works? Anyways, something like direction, with a default meaning of forward, would be modified into backward or up or down. Combining that with "person" would give us a traveler or forward thinker or something. I'd like to think this language shares its properties, not with most common languages, but, with computer language (concatenation and default values for variables, maybe other things).

ergman wrote:I like the points you make about beanish being a modular language. Do we have evidence to support that as opposed to any other system? Is the stacking of words behind Rosetta's talk implying that? Like when she has 'from' and 'where' behind' 'whence'?
I did try to look for connections with Rosettaish but didn't look hard. Thanks for finding that. It's like...evidence. Wow!
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Re: Beanish

Postby tresoldi » Wed Apr 02, 2014 10:16 pm UTC

azule wrote:Hi, tresoldi. I hope you still read your thread. I don't know how to converse new ideas with you on your blog. I mean, I'd like to post my own article. So, this place seems appropriate. What follows is basically from the OTT. It's review. I'll add new thoughts in another post.


Hi, azule! Great to see you here, I thought people had abandoned this thread after I had abandoned it first... I do think it is the best place to discuss, if you want I canc opy & paste it in my blog, or you can set up your own and I'll link to it (now, a webring on Beanish, that is very treeish! :P )

azule wrote:I think that Beanish is a modifying language. It's been said that 3 is a prefix for big/large. Well, I think every part to the left is a prefix/modifier, and only the rightmost symbol is the base word. Take water, for instance. It's been written as sea and water, yet those are two different words (not just with a 3-). But, the base is the same, the last symbol probably meaning liquid. So "water" would be "fresh" water and "sea" would be "salt" water.


I agree with you that Beanish is an extensively agglutinating language (if I understand correctly what you mean by "modifying", I mean something like Turkish), and the 3- prefix does look like a semantic mark for big/large (and there might be others: ᖉ- could be a "good" mark, similar to Ancient Greek "eu-", and ᔪ- a positive one, translated as "yes" when standing alone and used to mark yes/no questions). I am not so sure about the lexical relationship between "water" and "sea", though: my guess is that it would only make sense if the language were fusional (like, say, Italian), which is not what we are suggesting and it is not very common among languages which use abugidas.

azule wrote:
ucim wrote:(Maybe the sentence is right to left, but each word is left to right.)
You get the first quote for this thought. I've got it reversed (but same idea). I think it is sentence left-to-right, with words right-to-left. If I'm right then you're sorta right. :) Ok, actually, I mean that the words are constructed RTL, basically done with only prefixes (maybe compound prefixes).

I think it is very much going to be impossible to construct a verbal language out of it. But the point is to know what they're saying (not how they say it) so GLR has gone with symbol=meaning. We should be able to translate it (not transliterate (as they're not liter-- I mean, letters)).


I seem to agree with you about everything: if the language works like that it is more likely for its words to be constructed RTL, even though -- given the few nominal sintagmas we have, like "healing cream" and "sea name" -- we should expect otherwise. And I agree that it is probably impossible to construct a verbal language out of it with the corpus we have, but I still have the silly dream that the language may be algorithmically developed from some current language, which would be very Randall-like (I know, I know...).

azule wrote:I hope to GLR that Beanish is not logo-phonetic. It would be OK if the phonetic component was extra, but otherwise it's just garbage for my purposes. (Yeah, reading too much Rosetta-type stuff.)


It certainly does not look like that, unless the anatomy of a Beanie mouth is strikingly different from our. ;)

azule wrote:Good catch, to BlitzGirl, where frame2692 has no punctuation. It's the only one. Don't know if it means anything. It could be a mistake. The only other place without punctuation is the map. Being that this is the same word as from the map maybe that's why.


It looks like a proper noun...

I am starting a new analysis of the Beanish sentences frame by frame, please start giving your opinion when I post it! I'll probably do it both at the blog and here. :)
My blog on Beanish: https://beanishlang.wordpress.com/
Beanish corpus on Github: https://github.com/tresoldi/beanish/blob/master/corpus.txt
If you want to ask me anything, feel free to send a private message or comment on my blog, I might miss it on the topics (particularly on the OTT ;))

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Re: Beanish

Postby CobaltMouse » Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:19 pm UTC

An abjad is a script where some or all of the vowels aren't usually marked, like Hebrew or Arabic.
An abugida is a script where each symbol stands for a consonant, and vowels are obligatorily marked, and as diacritics, like Ge'ez or Thai.

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Re: Beanish

Postby azule » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:25 am UTC

Thanks for the reply, tresoldi. Thanks for the explanations, CobaltMouse. I think I'm on my way to getting it.

tresoldi, hi. I'm sorry, I don't quite get all of what you said. So let me apologize for being a difficult linguistic partner. I have investigated languages for many years and even have learned a bit of some, such as Spanish and Japanese. While investigating I come across some linguistic terms. They usually confuse me. I am not deterred. I hope help from a linguistical layman will be of some use.

Thanks for the offer on the blog. I'm not suggesting anything be posted there in particular. Just that I am going in a bit of a different direction than you and therefore didn't think commenting on a random article would be useful. Posting here is fine for now.

I want to clarify that I think you should continue your work on Beanish pronunciation. While I'm not sure it was meant to be deciphered in that way (to start) maybe once my work on Beanish moves further along we may combine our findings into a meaningful and verbalizing language.

I'll try to set up a presentation of the work I've done, for my next post. Looking forward to yours.
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Re: Beanish

Postby tresoldi » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:23 am UTC

CobaltMouse wrote:An abjad is a script where some or all of the vowels aren't usually marked, like Hebrew or Arabic.
An abugida is a script where each symbol stands for a consonant, and vowels are obligatorily marked, and as diacritics, like Ge'ez or Thai.


I believe there is some debate concerning the difference betweens abugidas and abjads, in part due to the fact that their names are abstractions and "natural" systems are usually partly impure. As I understand, in abjads the vowels are usually implied and can be marked optionally (such as as in religious texts for Hebrew), and in abugidas (sometimes called alphasyllabaries), each consonant has an inherent vowel, and diacritics are needed to modify it -- which is what I think the Beanish script does. One reference: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/types.htm
My blog on Beanish: https://beanishlang.wordpress.com/
Beanish corpus on Github: https://github.com/tresoldi/beanish/blob/master/corpus.txt
If you want to ask me anything, feel free to send a private message or comment on my blog, I might miss it on the topics (particularly on the OTT ;))

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Re: Beanish

Postby tresoldi » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:31 am UTC

azule wrote:tresoldi, hi. I'm sorry, I don't quite get all of what you said. So let me apologize for being a difficult linguistic partner. I have investigated languages for many years and even have learned a bit of some, such as Spanish and Japanese. While investigating I come across some linguistic terms. They usually confuse me. I am not deterred. I hope help from a linguistical layman will be of some use.


Oh, I am sorry, I was actually thinking that you were a linguist! Anyway, I am not one either: while I did study quite a bit of linguistics in my life, it is very funny, considering xkcd's lore, that my Ph.D. is in... literary criticism! (well, nominally it is in History of Literature and we pretend to be set apart from the people in Cultural Studies, but you get the idea ;) ) I will try to reduce the number of linguistic terms.

azule wrote:I want to clarify that I think you should continue your work on Beanish pronunciation. While I'm not sure it was meant to be deciphered in that way (to start) maybe once my work on Beanish moves further along we may combine our findings into a meaningful and verbalizing language.

I'll try to set up a presentation of the work I've done, for my next post. Looking forward to yours.


Please post it! As I said many time, I really don't like the general impression that "tresoldi is the guy when it comes to Beanish".

But regarding my work on pronunciation, please remember that I am not suggesting that what I find is the true or even a possible pronunciation: I am testing hypothesis in order to find more about Beanish, with the good consequence that I can offer a pronounceable transcription of Beanish, which I think necessary because, as pattern-finders, we humans need to have something we can vocalize easily to discuss Beanish, and not some strange of sequence of glyphs that very loosely look like numbers and consonants that can't be mixed.
My blog on Beanish: https://beanishlang.wordpress.com/
Beanish corpus on Github: https://github.com/tresoldi/beanish/blob/master/corpus.txt
If you want to ask me anything, feel free to send a private message or comment on my blog, I might miss it on the topics (particularly on the OTT ;))

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Re: Beanish

Postby tresoldi » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:39 am UTC

My blog on Beanish: https://beanishlang.wordpress.com/
Beanish corpus on Github: https://github.com/tresoldi/beanish/blob/master/corpus.txt
If you want to ask me anything, feel free to send a private message or comment on my blog, I might miss it on the topics (particularly on the OTT ;))

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Re: Beanish

Postby azule » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:44 pm UTC

I haven't gotten enough sleep to arrange an awesomeful presentation. I hope that doesn't matter in terms of communicating. Here goes.

Below is a computer style "table" of all of the characters. The first number next to each is the guess rating. 0 means no guess (which should be apparent). 1 is reserved for a wild guess. I've excluded all of those from this post. 2 is for a pretty good guess, usually involving some related guess work (maybe read: evidence). 3 is the highest level, essentially meaning a sure thing (as sure as any work on Beanish can get).

"ᔪ": [2,"?","unknown (not 'why', et al.)"]
"ᕒ": [2,"distance"]
"ᖚ": [2,"here","location"]
"ᘛ": [0]
"ᔭ": [0]
"ᖆ": [2,"home"]
"ᓄ": [3,"liquid"]
"ᒣ": [0]
"ᖉ": [3,"good"]
"ᖊ": [0]
"ᖽ": [0]
"ᕋ": [0]
"ᓭ": [0]
"ᘈ": [0]
"ᘊ": [3,"^","enhanced","large","important"]
"ᔕ": [0]
"ᖗ": [0]
"ᘖ": [3,"person","people","suitable for people"]
"ᑫ": [0]
"ᑲ": [0]
"ᕬ": [0]
"ᑕ": [0]
"ᐨ": [3,"."]
"ᐦ": [3,"!"]
"ᐤ": [3,"?"]
"ᐧ": [0]
",": [0]
"ᐣ": [0]
"ᑦ": [0]

I'll start by explaining "ᘊ". This is the one that means big...or important (to make it more general of a term). To explain my process, I take the most obvious meaning, and try to generalize it to see how it works with another word that may not seem very related, so that they both work. Anyways, to continue, "ᘊ" is an apparently agreed upon interpretation. Usually interpreted as a prefix. It's double use in the name of Gibraltar (dam) seems to make sense as that dam is important. I don't know what the other double use is and if that is also really important.

Next is "ᘖ", which we can see in the name of the city, and on the gate to the city. It does appear in starting, final, and medial positions, but I've taken it to have the most significance in the final position (which is my proposal on how Beanish works). It's presence in that position in the Beanie's name is the most striking evidence. It's appearance at the beginning of the city was a little confusing, but I think first, that's because that word identifies a place not a person, and secondly that it's probably part of a (for lack of a better term) compound word, where it is probably a stand alone word, which is why it appears on the gate, too.

I started looking down these paths when I noticed "ᓄ" appears in both "water" and in "sea". Being that the main attribute of both of these is the liquid element... this indicated to me that it is not specifically the word water (H20) but on that I'm not sure, as it could be used in the word "snow" for all I know (and I wish I did).

I'm glad to see that we're in agreement that "ᖉ" is "good". It's inclusion in other words seemed to preclude it from being a word so exact as "yes". It's use in the greetings is the best evidence. But it's inclusion in the final position in the name of the city is a bit confusing. Where that should be "land" it is instead "good". Of course, it could be named in the way that someone might say "home is where the heart is", therefore the city's name could be taken with them (the Beanies) when the flood comes.

I will leave the guess rating 2 for my next post. Hopefully with more/better evidence to show.

tresoldi wrote:I will try to reduce the number of linguistic terms.
Not too much. "Wibbly wobbly languagey stuff" is probably too far. ;)

tresoldi wrote:<snip/> as pattern-finders, we humans need to have something we can vocalize easily to discuss Beanish, and not some strange of sequence of glyphs that very loosely look like numbers and consonants that can't be mixed.
So true. I would love to just get my mind/mouth saying the letters so I can start puzzle solving better in my mind. 8-)
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Re: Beanish

Postby tresoldi » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:02 pm UTC

This is great, I almost cannot catch up with everything being written on Beanish! \o/

From my blog: http://beanishlang.wordpress.com/2014/0 ... ypothesis/ (I'll later give my two cents on how to continue this discussion)

A note on the abugida hypothesis, as it has been causing some confusion. I should have been more clear saying that, while I support the hypothesis that the script is an abugida, the pronunciations I am using (such as /p/ for ᘊ and /ʤ/ for ᖽ ) are only suggestions to make the discussion easier. I am not saying that the actual pronunciation is or likely is what I am using. My only intention for proposing these pronunciations was to solve the difficulty I (and apparently others) have with the Unicode glyphs, as my mind always reads something like “three-b-dot-seven-en”.

Even if there were evidences supporting that the pronunciation is right, which we do not have, we should not try to find patterns and similarities between Beanish and any other languages. Randall said that Beanish is supposed to be “plausible” and a plausible future language, even when actually evolved from a natural one currently known, would not have any clear phonetic similarities, due to nature of sound changes. Besides, we must consider that “Time” is set very far in the future; even Proto-Indo-European as usually reconstructed (i.e., as far as we can possibly go in terms of human language without a time machine — I am always hoping for the Doctor’s next companion to be a linguist) was likely spoken ~ 3,500 years ago (no Paleolithic Continuity Theory, please) and you just can’t easily go from *dhǵhemon to groom, or from *kʷetwóres to four.

Finally, we are a pattern-matching species, used to find signals in any noise, even random noise (which is my personal explanation for why people still try to write universal data compressors). We cannot help but find similarities among words in different languages, because not only we have this tendency, but also because we know that it is how languages work and because the population of phonemes is so small and the semantic boundaries so flexible that words can, by chance, seem related. This is why so many people try to link languages like Hebrew and Quechua, or Basque and Chinese, and that is why the accepted methodology in comparative linguistics is to look for regular changes (exceptions, if any, must be very well explained, like Tolkien did with Elvish numbers), the words must usually be taken in its “purest” form (and we don’t really know them for Beanish, perhaps with the exception of those starting with ᘊ-), and vowels are important too. There is a very good old article by Mark Rosenfelder you can read: How likely are chance resemblances between languages?http://www.zompist.com/chance.htm

In short, sorry for the confusion, but let’s focus on Beanish syntax and morphology, maybe vocabulary, but not in its similarities with other languages. Sorry for the confusion, my fault!
My blog on Beanish: https://beanishlang.wordpress.com/
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Re: Beanish

Postby tresoldi » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:13 pm UTC

azule wrote:Below is a computer style "table" of all of the characters. The first number next to each is the guess rating. 0 means no guess (which should be apparent). 1 is reserved for a wild guess. I've excluded all of those from this post. 2 is for a pretty good guess, usually involving some related guess work (maybe read: evidence). 3 is the highest level, essentially meaning a sure thing (as sure as any work on Beanish can get).

"ᔪ": [2,"?","unknown (not 'why', et al.)"]
"ᕒ": [2,"distance"]
"ᖚ": [2,"here","location"]
"ᘛ": [0]
"ᔭ": [0]
"ᖆ": [2,"home"]
"ᓄ": [3,"liquid"]
"ᒣ": [0]
"ᖉ": [3,"good"]
"ᖊ": [0]
"ᖽ": [0]
"ᕋ": [0]
"ᓭ": [0]
"ᘈ": [0]
"ᘊ": [3,"^","enhanced","large","important"]
"ᔕ": [0]
"ᖗ": [0]
"ᘖ": [3,"person","people","suitable for people"]
"ᑫ": [0]
"ᑲ": [0]
"ᕬ": [0]
"ᑕ": [0]
"ᐨ": [3,"."]
"ᐦ": [3,"!"]
"ᐤ": [3,"?"]
"ᐧ": [0]
",": [0]
"ᐣ": [0]
"ᑦ": [0]



This is really good, I was planning to do the same once I finished reviewing all the dialogs. But please post your confidence-1 too, I shouldn't be the only one saying things other people may find completely wrong.

azule wrote:I'll start by explaining "ᘊ". This is the one that means big...or important (to make it more general of a term). To explain my process, I take the most obvious meaning, and try to generalize it to see how it works with another word that may not seem very related, so that they both work. Anyways, to continue, "ᘊ" is an apparently agreed upon interpretation. Usually interpreted as a prefix. It's double use in the name of Gibraltar (dam) seems to make sense as that dam is important. I don't know what the other double use is and if that is also really important.


Gibraltar is one my aches, because ᘊ is the only glyph we ever find repeated. Some people on the OTT had speculated that it could be a plural mark, but I favor the "big" hypothesis.

One thing I notice (correct me if I am wrong) is that you are assuming that the glyphs/syllables are basic semantic units joined to create more complex units of meaning, and that each is glyph has essentially only one possible usage (like, no one would have a ᘊ in his/her name unless the meaning of the name is supposed to have "big" in it). I am not completely sure about that; regarding Gibraltar, for example, the double ᘊ could very well be found there by chance (same thing for ᓄ both in "water" and "sea": the semantic distance isn't so small and the chance of having the same glyph in both words by chance -- which we should calculate -- does not look so small either, to me).

azule wrote:Next is "ᘖ", which we can see in the name of the city, and on the gate to the city. It does appear in starting, final, and medial positions, but I've taken it to have the most significance in the final position (which is my proposal on how Beanish works). It's presence in that position in the Beanie's name is the most striking evidence. It's appearance at the beginning of the city was a little confusing, but I think first, that's because that word identifies a place not a person, and secondly that it's probably part of a (for lack of a better term) compound word, where it is probably a stand alone word, which is why it appears on the gate, too.


I agree that the city name is probably a compound word, and it would actually make more sense to your "liquid hypothesis" for ᓄ: the city name could very well be something like "water city", "hamlet-by-the-sea", etc.

azule wrote:I'm glad to see that we're in agreement that "ᖉ" is "good". It's inclusion in other words seemed to preclude it from being a word so exact as "yes". It's use in the greetings is the best evidence. But it's inclusion in the final position in the name of the city is a bit confusing. Where that should be "land" it is instead "good". Of course, it could be named in the way that someone might say "home is where the heart is", therefore the city's name could be taken with them (the Beanies) when the flood comes.


Good eye catching that, and... wow... we have the draft for a Beanish cosmology here! :D
My blog on Beanish: https://beanishlang.wordpress.com/
Beanish corpus on Github: https://github.com/tresoldi/beanish/blob/master/corpus.txt
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Re: Beanish

Postby azule » Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:21 am UTC

Sorry to be so egotistical with my responses. I am still looking through your posts to state agreements or disagreements. (I did, of course, use your research to get myself started, so that's something. ;))

tresoldi wrote:This is really good, I was planning to do the same once I finished reviewing all the dialogs. But please post your confidence-1 too, I shouldn't be the only one saying things other people may find completely wrong.
Oh, most of those were done for a project wherein I used Beanish extensively. In other words, it wasn't FOR SCIENCE but FOR ART! If any of them are actually any good of a confidence-1 guess, I'll add it back in, sure. :)

tresoldi wrote:I agree that the city name is probably a compound word, and it would actually make more sense to your "liquid hypothesis" for ᓄ: the city name could very well be something like "water city", "hamlet-by-the-sea", etc.
Thanks. I think I get it. It would be further compounded. I think it's the same problem as in English, but how do you distinguish a compound word from a single meaning word? I'd love to have it be more simple and just have no compounds. Oh yeah, I wasn't exactly saying it was a compound word, but something like that glyph would retain most of it's meaning as opposed to melding in with other glyphs. This is wibbly wobbly theory, still considering it.

tresoldi wrote:One thing I notice (correct me if I am wrong) is that you are assuming that the glyphs/syllables are basic semantic units joined to create more complex units of meaning, and that each is glyph has essentially only one possible usage (like, no one would have a ᘊ in his/her name unless the meaning of the name is supposed to have "big" in it).
Mostly yes. Taking your parenthetical first, I think there are possible secondary meanings. When one of the glyph's meanings is generalized as much as possible, the only time it has a strong single meaning is on it's own. When it is combined to form, let's say a person's name, it's meaning should be much more fluid, allowing it to have a meaning of, say, "grand", as in "grandfather". They may even be a tiny grandfather, but the name would make sense.

I haven't worked out this compound compounding method I speak of. I may very well be very wrong. Theory is that each glyph added is "morphed" to suit the previous glyph (or maybe the main glyph). I will have to explain this another time with very good examples, so please [wait for it].

tresoldi wrote:
azule wrote:I'm glad to see that we're in agreement that "ᖉ" is "good". It's inclusion in other words seemed to preclude it from being a word so exact as "yes". It's use in the greetings is the best evidence. But it's inclusion in the final position in the name of the city is a bit confusing. Where that should be "land" it is instead "good". Of course, it could be named in the way that someone might say "home is where the heart is", therefore the city's name could be taken with them (the Beanies) when the flood comes.


Good eye catching that, and... wow... we have the draft for a Beanish cosmology here! :D
I'm sorry, what was the good catch? Was it the "good" where "land" should be?

That project I mentioned up there, seems to be Beanish comsmology, if I understand the term right. Check it out.
Spoiler:
Ooh, maybe the name already was taken with them from when they were located closer to the sea but moved to higher ground to survive the flood's new shoreline. If their city has the glyph "ᓄ" that should mean water of some kind...well, they're not exactly near water in that location. *shrug*
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Re: Beanish

Postby tresoldi » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:39 pm UTC

(from my blog)

In frame 2668 (btw, I am using Geekwagons numbering system), one of the Beanies has examined Megan’s leg and asks or orders something to a second Beanie, which promptly leaves: ᓭᘈ ᘊᒣᓭᐧᖊᔕ ᖆᘊᓭᒣᖊᐣᖗᐨ (“tesa paʧataðama dapateʧaðeʃa”).

It seems everyone agrees on the meaning of this sentence: either “Get/Bring (me/us) cream for-healing” or “Cream for-healing is-needed”. The “cream for-healing” is one the most clear keys Randall has given us: Megan will soon ask what they are putting in her leg, and the answer will be ᘊᒣᓭᐧᖊᔕ ᖆᘊᓭᒣᖊᐣᖗᐨ. We have established that ᘊ- (“pa”) is almost certainly a prefix (or, more appropriately in terms of Beanish morphology, a semantic particle usually found in initial position when applied to names), probably meaning “big, large, superior”; and in fact the base form ᒣᓭᐧᖊᔕ (“ʧataðama”) will return in frame 2797 referring to what they are eating. Not delving into the possible morphology of ᒣᓭᐧᖊᔕ (“ʧataðama”) — but the word is probably at least inflected, if not a compound –, “cream” is indeed the best translation for something that can be both eaten and applied to injuries (“unguent”), assuming it is not a proper noun (who knows, maybe aloe vera or nettle are sacred plants among the Beanies, used as aliments) and that Beanish food is not so different from ours.

ᖆᘊᓭᒣᖊᐣᖗ (“dapataʧaðeʃa”) is a bit more interesting. First of all, we can safely assume that it is qualifying the word if follows, which is probably the less disputable feature of Beanish syntax (see, for example, the map, where the word probably meaning sea, ᘊᖊᑦᓄ ["paðova"] is followed by the proper name): modifiers are postponed. The “for-healing” part is a good guess, and allows us to think once more of -ᘊ- as “big”, implying a prefix ᖆ- ["da"] (on OTT, azule suggested it is “home”, but I think it is more likely a general physical descriptor/connector, if indeed all glyphs have a semantic load) and much more manageable base word ᓭᒣᖊᐣᖗ (“teʧaðeʃa”), which looks a bit like a “verb” (maybe the ᖆ- turns a verb, possibly a nominal one, into an agent, thus “healer (cream)”).

None of this is new, and has been extensively discussed in the OTT. I want to focus in the word ᓭᘈ (“tesa”). Now, without considering its meaning (be it an imperative “get” or a “is-needed”), the word is likely a verb; our tendency as SVO-language speakers is to take it as an imperative. We unfortunately don’t have words clearly related to it — considering the ᘈ element it is completely opaque, while considering ᓭ we have some candidates: in the difficult sentence from frame 2671 we have the bizarre word ᓭᑦᐧ (“toj”); in frame 2697 we have the debated ᓭᐧᖚ (“tako”), the word-without-punctuation (but as many people suggested, it’s probably a lapsus calami, just a miskate) which seems more related to ᓭᐧᘖ (“taba”) in frame 2866; in frame 2728, one that desperately needs more translation effort, we have ᓭᘖᑦ (“tebo”), the likeliest candidate in my opinion.

The conclusion is that I need to study in much finer detail the dubious translations, particularly for frames 2671 and 2728. Please keep posting your suggestions (if you study the corpus I put on Github, all I have there are elipsis…)

Now, for something different. Maybe it’s the literary critic in me, but I have been wondering if the game we are playing is the same for, say, identify time and place. We could do more for “deciphering” Beanish, but unless someone finds an algorithm to derive it from whatever language there is, the data we have is simply not enough (I had many crazy, crazy ideas I know wouldn’t work well, going as far as a Naïve Bayes to classify words in their parts of speech using people guesses of translations). Maybe we are not supposed to find the rules but actually find the signal in the noise, i.e., develop a grammar that fits the language we have so far? Really, has it been discussed? I look back and seem to have always worked under the assumption that the grammar was there to decrypt.

But I will try to go on with my mumblings, even though life knocks at the door asking me to stop playing that much and focus on work…
My blog on Beanish: https://beanishlang.wordpress.com/
Beanish corpus on Github: https://github.com/tresoldi/beanish/blob/master/corpus.txt
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Re: Beanish

Postby azule » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:10 pm UTC

Taking your last sentence first... just think of Albert Einstein and the story of how his menial labor afforded him time to ponder the answers he was looking for. Well, I'm just saying maybe it's not bad to let yourself "work" so that the Beanish presents itself more clearly when you do get to focus on it. Also, "don't leave". ;)

Thanks for adjusting your terms, I actually understood most of that except for a couple phrases.

Sorta related, but I was recently looking up the etymology of "milk" and "lactate". I thought that they must have a related origin. But mostly I learned that they come from verbs. We say "get some milk at the store" as if "milk" was always a noun. Anyways, that just made me think of how all of our words get assigned a part of speech, but really they're just words that mean something regardless of that part of speech. (I'm aware that sometimes they may morph even further from the original meaning, making my statement not so true.) I think what you're doing up there is trying to classify the words, which as I've been saying, is great and will be useful. But I'm thinking that the meaning of that "verb" will be important for figuring out the rest of the corpus.

As for "ᖆ" being "home", I'm not sure. It might have been a confidence-1 guess more than confidence-2. I'll have another look at it.
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Re: Beanish

Postby tresoldi » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:54 pm UTC

(sorry azule, I still have to answer your posts!)

I said I would not be linear, and here it goes: let’s jump to the interesting speech in frame 2728.

This frame is interesting, because it’s one of the Beanish “data points” closer to being a “Rosetta stone”. After some initial and difficult communication, when Cueball apparently learns the Beanish word for “water” (frames 2708/2709), he and Megan try to communicate with the Beanie by drawing. When Cueball makes it clear that they came from the lowlands, where we know the sea is rising, the Beanie seems both surprised and excited and fires three questions: ᔪᖉᔭᑫ ᕒᖚᐧ ᘊᓭᐧᑲᐤ ᑦᘈᖽᐣ ᔭ ᖆᖽᒣ ᓭᘖᑦ ᖊᘊᐤ ᕋᖗ ᖆᕬᖉᔭ ᘖᐣᖗᔭ, ᘊᓭᘖᔭᓄᐤ As Cuegan don’t (doesn’t?) understand, the Beanie takes the stitch and draws some parallel lines to indicate that the sea is rising.

We can make many educated guesses. The first sentence is probably a result of the surprise/excitement of the Beanie (remember that, as Rosetta will later explain, they did not imagine there were still people living there). One of the two last sentences (or possibly both, but I guess only the last one) is likely related to the the rising of the sea, and it seems a good guess that among those questions one of them is something like “How did you get here?” or, at best, “Are you (two) alone?”.

Syntactically, the first question is the one that helps us most. We have ᔪᖉᔭᑫ ᕒᖚᐧ ᘊᓭᐧᑲᐤ (“nafagaθa laka pataɲa?”), which is stringkly similar to the very first Beanish sentence, ᔪᕒᖚᐧ ᘛᔭᐤ (“nalaka zaga?”), in frame 2663. We have seen that this first question probably means “Where are you from?” or “Who are you?”, with the “question prefix” ᔪ (“na”) — that seems to work as a clitic, like most of Beanish morphemes –, the “locative adverb/preposition” ᕒᖚᐧ (“laka”) — sorry to keep the linguistic jargon, basically something which denotes a physical location, probably something translated as “here/there/where/in/at/…” (but at least I am not saying things like “place deixis”! –, and ᘛᔭ (“zaga”), likely a verb. In our new sentence, we keep the ᔪ (“na”) clitic, along with the ᕒᖚᐧ (“laka”). But we also have the common ᘊᓭᐧᑲ (“pataɲa”) word, which — unless Randall gave us homographs — is the name of the place where Cuegan come from (cfe. frame 2906, a.k.a. “the map”); I like to think of it as “Balearic”, to omit the fact that it might be a composite. However, the word seems to be the result of, at least, the ᘊ- (“pa-”) prefix and the word ᓭᐧᑲ (“taɲa”), used in the “good night” sentence of frame 2697. A case of homography here is not probable, and it raises an interesting hypothesis: that, maybe, perhaps, who knows, possibly, just a guess, ᘊ- (“pa-”) does not mean “big, superior”, but is a kind of determinative (an “article”, or maybe a “demonstrative”), used in precise circumstances. Think about the usage of articles in Ancient Greek — I keep going back to it as Randall spoke of Linear A, even though I know that Linear A is not Greek (as far as we know, it is not even Indo-European) –, including the fact that its usage in what we suppose to be Rosetta’s name might be an honorific.

We then have two sentences, one likely “QUESTION-(from) (to come)” and one “QUESTION-(?) (from) (Balears)”. The ᖉᔭᑫ (“fagaθa”) word is unfortunately very obscure, but, using the logic of English, it should be a verb. The alternative of having the first as “QUESTION-(person/who) (are, inflected 2nd plural)” and the second as “QUESTION-(?) (person/who) (Balears)” has some difficulties due to the later usage of ᕒᖚᐧ (“laka”), but it can’t absolutely be ruled out (a more fluent English translation would be “Are you Balearic?”). For the time being, we should study the corpus with both possibilities in mind: ᕒᖚᐧ (“laka”) as “from/where/there/here” (the one I favor) and as something that is or work as a copula verb (“to be”).

The second question, ᑦᘈᖽᐣ ᔭ ᖆᖽᒣ ᓭᘖᑦ ᖊᘊᐤ (“osaʤe ga daʤaʧa tebo ðapa?”), is more difficult. No word in it is clearly related to anything else in our corpus, not to mention the uncommon diacritic in initial position in ᑦᘈᖽᐣ (“osaʤe”). ᓭᘖᑦ (“tebo”) could be related to ᓭᘖᔭᓄ (“water”), but there is not clear indication of that — this is one of the few words where calculating the probability of a random similarity — I’ll do it, eventually — may actually help us, but once more what we need are good hypothesis to test. What do you all think this second sentence means?

We finally have ᕋᖗ ᖆᕬᖉᔭ ᘖᐣᖗᔭ, ᘊᓭᘖᔭᓄᐤ (“raʃa daʎafaga beʃagai patebava?”). We are naturally drawn to ᘊᓭᘖᔭᓄ (“patebava”), almost certainly a compound of the prefix ᘊ- (“pa-” — “big, superior” or a determinative) and ᓭᘖᔭᓄ (“tebava” — “water”). Based mostly in the following sentence by Megan (“Yes! The sea is rising!”), most people (including myself) speculated that this is, loosely, semantically similar ot the third question, which goes hand in hand with the translation of ᘊᓭᘖᔭᓄ as “sea” (“big water”). This has, however, some problems, in particular the fact that we know almost for sure that “sea” is written ᘊᖊᑦᓄ (“paðeva”). azule has suggested in the XKCD fora that ᓄ (“va”) is actually “water, liquid”), and while I am not completely confident with his/her hypothesis of freely joinable morphemes with independent semantic load (I use this complex description because I am not sure if he/she thinks about something more like Klingon or more like Chinese, but we are talking of somewhat-analytic languages), this makes a lot of sense here. Plus, it supports the hypothesis of ᘊ- (“pa-”) as a determinative: in our sentence, “water” is used with a determinative (maybe it’s the subject, maybe some other rule is at play), and in the maps, for example, the prefix is explained by proper nouns (ᘊᖊᑦᓄ ᘊᓭᐧᑲ would be something like “the-Sea the-Balearic”).

The other words in the sentence are, unfortunately, obscure. I agree that we should expect something like “up” or “rise” or “increase” in it, but we cannot go much farther than guessing. ᕋᖗ (“raʃa”) has both uncommon glyphs and uncommon features; the initial ᖆ- (“da-”) in ᖆᕬᖉᔭ (“daʎafaga”) could mean “good” (“up”?), but it doesn’t fit very well with the supposed meaning of the sentence; the only word very loosely similar to ᘖᐣᖗᔭ, (“beʃagai”) is ᖚᐣᘖᖗᑫ (“kebaʃaθa”), which doesn’t add much either. You’ve guessed it: we need more and better hypothesis for the translations.
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Beanish corpus on Github: https://github.com/tresoldi/beanish/blob/master/corpus.txt
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Beanish Post #2

Postby azule » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:29 pm UTC

I see that we're in the realm of figuring out what the Beanish should/does mean. Beanish in context is the answer. 8-) It's broken down into chunks. While there may be overarching topics, I didn't group those, just when they were in sequence. I also adding in some Rosetta frames, but not many. I know that some of her speech may be key, but I don't know what (besides including all). The frame numbers are included for ease of discussion, where m = mscha standard, g = geekwagon, and a = aubronwood.

Let me know if you find it useful or if there are frames that should be added (or removed).

There's 94 images, so, apologies if there's trouble loading every image. Tip: right-click+reload image. There isn't any fancy image handling javascript, but I may add that in the future.
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If you read this sig, post about one arbitrary thing you did today.

I celebrate up to six arbitrary things before breakfast.
Time does drag on and on and contain spoilers. Be aware of memes.

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Re: Beanish Post #2

Postby tresoldi » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:24 am UTC

azule wrote:I see that we're in the realm of figuring out what the Beanish should/does mean. Beanish in context is the answer. 8-) It's broken down into chunks. While there may be overarching topics, I didn't group those, just when they were in sequence. I also adding in some Rosetta frames, but not many. I know that some of her speech may be key, but I don't know what (besides including all). The frame numbers are included for ease of discussion, where m = mscha standard, g = geekwagon, and a = aubronwood.

Let me know if you find it useful or if there are frames that should be added (or removed).

There's 94 images, so, apologies if there's trouble loading every image. Tip: right-click+reload image. There isn't any fancy image handling javascript, but I may add that in the future.


But this is great! I would only add the transcription and possible translations on the right, but you've saved me a good amount of time. Geekwagon is far better than any alternative for "reading" Time, but this is a Beanish toolbox! :D
My blog on Beanish: https://beanishlang.wordpress.com/
Beanish corpus on Github: https://github.com/tresoldi/beanish/blob/master/corpus.txt
If you want to ask me anything, feel free to send a private message or comment on my blog, I might miss it on the topics (particularly on the OTT ;))

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Re: Beanish

Postby patzer » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:40 am UTC

Potentially stupid question:

There is currently a sequel to Time being written, which currently has 864 frames.
It has quite a lot of Beanish in it, including English writing laid over Beanish writing.
Is this all previously used Beanish, or is it possible that the author of this series knows Randall and put some new Beanish words into the comic?
It's almost certainly the former, but just wanted to check :)
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Re: Beanish

Postby tresoldi » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:51 am UTC

patzer wrote:Potentially stupid question:

There is currently a sequel to Time being written, which currently has 864 frames.
It has quite a lot of Beanish in it, including English writing laid over Beanish writing.
Is this all previously used Beanish, or is it possible that the author of this series knows Randall and put some new Beanish words into the comic?
It's almost certainly the former, but just wanted to check :)


I am aware, but still don't know that to do with it. The few Beanish occurences are not very promising (with the exception of the "cave"), but that could change. However, while there is no indication that the comic is drawn by Randall (and it doesn't look to me) or by someone who actually knows Beanish (potentially true, hopefully true), I prefer to wait. The canonical Beanish is already quite hard by itself. :)
My blog on Beanish: https://beanishlang.wordpress.com/
Beanish corpus on Github: https://github.com/tresoldi/beanish/blob/master/corpus.txt
If you want to ask me anything, feel free to send a private message or comment on my blog, I might miss it on the topics (particularly on the OTT ;))

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Re: Beanish Post #2

Postby azule » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:04 am UTC

On TimeAfterTime, I'd say we contact SilentTimer (the author) to see what information xey has on Beanish, but it's likely that it isn't anything official.

tresoldi wrote:But this is great! I would only add the transcription and possible translations on the right, but you've saved me a good amount of time. Geekwagon is far better than any alternative for "reading" Time, but this is a Beanish toolbox! :D
Thanks!

When you say transcription, do you mean the unicode glyphs? Because that's available on tooltip (hover over the image). On possible translations, do you mean all of the possibilities? I'm not sure how helpful this will be. I'll consider it.
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If you read this sig, post about one arbitrary thing you did today.

I celebrate up to six arbitrary things before breakfast.
Time does drag on and on and contain spoilers. Be aware of memes.

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Re: Beanish

Postby CobaltMouse » Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:26 am UTC

Unfortunately, it doesn't look like actual Beanish, just copied instances of Beanish from Time repeated meaninglessly.

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Beanish Type

Postby azule » Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:34 pm UTC

I created a Greasemonkey userscript. It is used to display CAS as Beanish using the Beanish font that I created. Follow this link for the userscript. The fonts are available directly via these links: OTF, TTF, WOFF.

The glyphs are available in a table on the posting page.

There are a few changes to the script compared to the use here so far. Some occurances of ᑦ become ᐡ, others remain. ᐣ becomes ᐢ. , (comma) becomes ᣗ. ᑲ switches places with ᖚ. ᖗ does not switch places with ᑫ. All diacritics are placed in front (this is a change for latin).

I will have to detail these and more in a later post. Just wanted to get this out (so that I don't lose it on my computer. hah!)
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If you read this sig, post about one arbitrary thing you did today.

I celebrate up to six arbitrary things before breakfast.
Time does drag on and on and contain spoilers. Be aware of memes.

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Beanish Corpus

Postby azule » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:25 pm UTC

Here is the corpus updated with my new changes (including changes to SinusPi Transliteration):

"2658": {
, "cas": "ᔪᕒᑲᐧ ᘛᔭᐤ"
, "latin": "dZL' Ub?"}
, "2659": {
, "cas": "ᔪᖆᓄᐧ ᔪᣗ ᒣᖉ ᖊᐢᖽ ᖽᘛᕋᐡᐤ"
, "latin": "dA'J d, 7X W`N NUq"?"}
, "2663": {
, "cas": "ᓭᘈ ᘊᒣᓭᐧᖊᔕ ᖆᘊᓭᒣᖊᐢᖗᐨ"
, "latin": "4M 374'WS A347W`9."}
, "2666": {
, "cas": "ᕒᑲᐧ ᘊᘖᑫᘖᒣᐢᑲ ᘛ ᓭᐡᐧ ᕒᑲᑫᕋᣗᐨ"
, "latin": "ZL' 32g27`L U 4"' ZLgq,."}
, "2671": {
, "cas": "ᘊᒣᓭᐧᖊᔕ ᖆᘊᓭᒣᖊᐢᖗᐨ"
, "latin": "374'WS A347W`9."}
, "2692": {
, "cas": "ᑲᑫᘖ ᓭᐧᑲ"
, "latin": "Lg2 4'L"}
, "2701": {
, "cas": "ᓭᘖᔭᓄᐨ"
, "latin": "42bJ."}
, "2703": {
, "cas": "ᓭᘖᔭᓄᐨ"
, "latin": "42bJ."}
, "2703": {
, "cas": "ᖉᑦᣗᐦ ᓭᘖᔭᓄᐦ"
, "latin": "Xc,! 42bJ!"}
, "2707": {
, "cas": "ᓭᘖᔭᓄᐨ"
, "latin": "42bJ."}
, "2708": {
, "cas": "ᓭᘖᔭᓄᐨ"
, "latin": "42bJ."}
, "2722": {
, "cas": "ᓭᘖᔭᓄᐨ"
, "latin": "42bJ."}
, "2723": {
, "cas": "ᔪᖉᔭᑫ ᕒᑲᐧ ᘊᓭᐧᖚᐤ ᑦᘈᖽᐢ ᔭ ᖆᖽᒣ ᓭᘖᐡ ᖊᘊᐤ ᕋᖗ ᖆᕬᖉᔭ ᘖᐢᖗᔭᣗ ᘊᓭᘖᔭᓄᐤ"
, "latin": "dXbg ZL' 34'6? cMN` b AN7 42" W3? q9 AQXb 2`9b, 342bJ?"}
, "2729": {
, "cas": "ᖽᔕᐢᘖ ᑲᐢᘖᖗᑫ ᖆᐢᖽ ᘊᒣᑦᖽᖆᐨ"
, "latin": "NS`2 L`29g A`N 37cNA."}
, "2792": {
, "cas": "ᒣᓭᐧᖊᔕᐨ"
, "latin": "74'WS."}
, "2793": {
, "cas": "ᒣᓭᐧᖊᔕᐨ"
, "latin": "74'WS."}
, "2797": {
, "cas": "ᑕᘊᐢᒣ ᘊᓭᑦᑕᖉᐨ ᑕᘊᐢᒣ ᘊᓭᘖᔭᓄᐨ ᓭᘖᔭᓄᐦ"
, "latin": "G3`7 34cGX. G3`7 342bJ. 42bJ!"}
, "2801": {
, "cas": "ᖆᘈᘖ ᖽᔕᐢᘖ ᑲᒣᑕᑫᓭ ᖆᐢᖽ ᘊᒣᑦᖽᖆᐨ"
, "latin": "AM2 NS`2 L7Gg4 A`N 37cNA."}
, "2801": {
, "cas": "ᖉᐡᣗᐨ"
, "latin": "Xc,."}
, "2815": {
, "cas": "ᘖ"
, "latin": "2"}
, "2816": {
, "cas": "ᘖᓄᘈᖉᐢᐨ"
, "latin": "2JMX`."}
, "2818": {
, "cas": "ᖉᣗ ᖆᐢᑲᔭᣗᐨ"
, "latin": "X, A`Lb,."}
, "2822": {
, "cas": "ᘊᒣᑦᖽᖆᐨ"
, "latin": "37cNA."}
, "2831": {
, "cas": "ᖽᔕᐢᘖ ᑲᐢᘖᖗᑫ ᖆᐢᖽ ᘊᓭᘖᐡᓄᐨ"
, "latin": "NS`2 L29g A`N 342"j."}
, "2836": {
, "cas": "ᘈᘊᘖᐨ"
, "latin": "M32."}
, "2836": {
, "cas": "ᖉᣗ ᖆᐢᑲᔭᣗᐨ"
, "latin": "X, A`Lb,."}
, "2837": {
, "cas": "ᖉᣗ ᖆᐢᑲᔭᐦ"
, "latin": "X, A`Lb."}
, "2837": {
, "cas": "ᖆᘈᘖᐦ ᖉᣗ ᖆᐢᑲᔭᐦ"
, "latin": "AM2! X, A`Lb!"}
, "2858": {
, "cas": "ᘈᘊᘖᐨ"
, "latin": "M32."}
, "2859": {
, "cas": "ᘈᘊᘖᐨ"
, "latin": "M32."}
, "2860": {
, "cas": "ᕒᑲᐧ ᓭᔭᐡᘖ ᘛᖆᑲᘈᐤ"
, "latin": "ZL' 4b"2 UALM?"}
, "2861": {
, "cas": "ᖆᐢᑕᐡᑲᑫ ᓭᐧᘖ ᕒᑲᐧ ᘊᓭᐧᖚᐨ"
, "latin": "A`9G"Lg 4'2 ZL' 34'6."}
, "2861": {
, "cas": "ᖉᔭᒣᘊᐢᘖᑫᖗ ᖽᘛᕋᐡᐨ"
, "latin": "Xb73`2g9 NUq"."}
, "2875": {
, "cas": "ᘛᐢ ᖆᔭᖊᖽ ᖊᣗᘖ ᘖᖆᒣᘛᐨ"
, "latin": "U` AbWN W,2 2A7U."}
, "2875": {
, "cas": "ᔪᑕᐨ"
, "latin": "dG."}
, "2877": {
, "cas": "ᘈᘊᘖᐨ"
, "latin": "M32."}
, "2901": {
, "cas": "ᘊᖊᣗᓄ ᘊᓭᐧᖚ"
, "latin": "3W,J 34'6"}
, "2901": {
, "cas": "ᘊᖊᣗᓄ ᒣᓄᐢᔭ"
, "latin": "3W,J 7J`b"}
, "2901": {
, "cas": "ᑫᘊᘊ"
, "latin": "933"}
, "2901": {
, "cas": "ᘊᓭᑦᑕᖉ"
, "latin": "34cGX"}
, "2901": {
, "cas": "ᘖᓄᘈᖉᐢ"
, "latin": "2JMX`"}
, "2901": {
, "cas": "ᓭᘊᘊ"
, "latin": "433"}
, "2928": {
, "cas": "ᖉᣗ ᖆᐢᑲᔭᣗᐨ"
, "latin": "X, A`Lb,."}
, "2929": {
, "cas": "ᒣᓭᐧᖊᔕᐨ"
, "latin": "74'WS."}
, "2930": {
, "cas": "ᘈᘊᘖᐨ"
, "latin": "M32."}
, "2936": {
, "cas": "ᖉᣗ ᖆᐢᑲᔭᣗᐨ"
, "latin": "X, A`Lb,."}
Image

If you read this sig, post about one arbitrary thing you did today.

I celebrate up to six arbitrary things before breakfast.
Time does drag on and on and contain spoilers. Be aware of memes.

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Re: Beanish

Postby SilentTimer » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:54 pm UTC

CobaltMouse wrote:Unfortunately, it doesn't look like actual Beanish, just copied instances of Beanish from Time repeated meaninglessly.

Sorry, but this is actual Beanish.
Yes, I am copying it from Time, but only sentences whose meaning is mostly agreed on, and in a context where they make sense and add something to the story.
They don't add anything to the corpus, but they are definitely not meaningless.
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Then you will like its sequel: t1i. [Discussion] [Making Of]
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