Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

aoeu
Posts: 325
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:58 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby aoeu » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:27 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
aoeu wrote:
Isaac Hill wrote:If it's socially acceptable for Eich to try to use the government to force others to live by his religious beliefs, but it's not socially acceptable to pressure Eich in response, then the only person not expected to make a personal sacrifice for Eich's religion is Eich himself. That isn't right. They are Eich's beliefs, and no one else owes him anything for them.

What, you think he has changed his mind now?
Who said anything about thinking he's changed his mind? Like, seriously, where did that idea you just had even come from? No one is saying that.

It was the bit about forcing.
stephen431 wrote:
aoeu wrote:
Zamfir wrote:@Stephen431, that does sound plausible, especially given the speed of the decision. People were just waiting for an opportunity to ditch him.

If they had wanted to ditch him they would not have made him the CEO.

I don't believe any of the people who made him CEO were the people asking for his resignation. 3 of the 6 remaining board members (2 were former Mozilla CEOs) resigned when Brendan was promoted to CEO. It was reported in the Wall Street Journal (and elsewhere) that all 3 were opposed to Eich running Mozilla. The statements they gave were that they wanted a CEO from outside of Mozilla's board, and someone who would better develop the Mozilla OS for mobile. Additionally Mozilla's COO (and their acting CEO) also resigned on the day Eich was promoted. The company had lost 6 of their top executives in the past year. Eich makes it 7. There are multiple reports of "old guard vs. new guard" political infighting among Mozilla leadership. Eich and Mitchell Baker are noted as Mozilla's co-founders (old guard). They would have run Mozilla as CEO and Chairwoman. I think there's more to this than just a Prop 8 donation.

There are people at Google, Apple, Microsoft, Oracle, etc that all donated more than Eich did.
http://projects.latimes.com/prop8/

Wikipedia suggests their resignations didn't necessarily have to do with Eich (i.e. WSJ is just reporting conjecture): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Ei ... orporation . Plus I find the theory of "he had to go because all his detractors resigned" a little dubious.

leady
Posts: 1592
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby leady » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:48 pm UTC

Out of curiousity, what are peoples definition of what makes a viewpoint bigotted ?

cphite
Posts: 1370
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby cphite » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:54 pm UTC

As for point 2, that's a valid criticism. People should act consistently on their beliefs. However, the only reason Eich has been singled out, in this case, is that somebody drew attention to the fact that he supported Prop 8. Moreover, they only pointed this out to people who were already contributing to Eich's success - namely, users of Mozilla Firefox (and potentially also people who were falsifying their user agent strings for whatever reason, I guess?). Aside from this, none of the examples that were provided are actually relevant here. None of the people in tech companies were the CEO of their company, and indeed, none of them seemed to have any sort of public-facing role, either. That is to say, none of their jobs require maintaining good PR with the user base the way Eich's job did. As for the politicians, that example would make sense if the only political issue forever was non-hetero marriage. But it's not. It's almost as if people decide which candidate/party to vote for based on an entire political platform, covering a wide range of political issues and general matters of policy.


Right - and that someone who drew attention to it was Sam Yagan, who himself had previously donated to the campaign of Rep. Chris Cannon (R-Utah) who (among other things) voted for a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, voted against a ban on sexual-orientation based job discrimination, and voted for prohibition of gay adoptions.

For Yagan to make an issue of Eich supporting Prop 8 is the epitome of hypocrisy; and the same holds true for the folks who jumped on the bandwagon.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10549
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:57 pm UTC

Anything that declares any particular demographic to be inherently 'inferior' or 'unworthy' simply for existing, without any rational backing behind it. And no, you aren't going to find much rational backing behind any argument declaring groups to be inherently inferior.

Eg, "we can't let any Muslims in to Europe because they oppose egalitarianism" is bigoted because it assumes that ALL Muslims are sexist/racist/whatever and thus shouldn't be allowed in. The people making this argument rarely if ever actually believe in egalitarianism as opposed to just using it as a stick to beat Islam. Saying "if people want to move here, that's great, but only if they espouse egalitarianism" is not bigoted, even if the result is a policy that screens out a few more people from various cultures than others.

The problem is that bigots will use the non-bigotry sounding argument that most closely mimics their goals, in order to avoid being accused of the "R word". The most common way is through code words. Complaints about "International bankers" sounds a lot more credible than "Jews", even though virtually no one complaining about the "banksters" can name any banking family beyond the Rothschilds (and ignores that they lost most of their money years ago). "Urban" sounds a lot nicer than just saying "nuggets". "Fascist" sounds better than "person who holds slightly different viewpoints for reasons that might actually be more rational than my own".

Heisenberg
Posts: 3789
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 8:48 pm UTC
Location: Uncertain

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:31 pm UTC

Carlington wrote:Point 1b, however, seems to boil down to crying First Amendment; and, as always seems to be the case when I see that argument used on the internet, it's not being applied properly here.

I don't think his first amendment rights were violated, I think he was mistreated by his employer. This man was fired not due to his performance, but rather due to his personal beliefs and political actions. That's shitty. And it's especially shitty to strip Eich of ownership of the thing he built. He was punished by his employer, and I strongly doubt that his contract forbade him from donating to political causes.

If Eich wants to fight gay marriage and the whole nation decides to boycott because that's terrible, then Eich should be able to run Mozilla into the ground. It's his baby, after all. If his politics are more important to him than his creations, then so be it.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10549
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:41 pm UTC

If he sold stock to shareholders, it's no longer "his" baby. And even if he owned more than 50% of the stock, the minority shareholders can still sue the shit out him if he tries to run it into the ground despite what Hollywood teaches you.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:49 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:If Eich wants to fight gay marriage and the whole nation decides to boycott because that's terrible, then Eich should be able to run Mozilla into the ground. It's his baby, after all. If his politics are more important to him than his creations, then so be it.
Except it isn't his baby, as evidenced by the fact that the board forced his resignation.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
setzer777
Good questions sometimes get stupid answers
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:24 am UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby setzer777 » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:50 pm UTC

Yeah Heisenberg, that's not really how company ownership works.
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

User avatar
Azrael
CATS. CATS ARE NICE.
Posts: 6491
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:16 am UTC
Location: Boston

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Azrael » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:20 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:He was punished by his employer ... then Eich should be able to run Mozilla into the ground.

This isn't even internally consistent. If it were enough 'his baby' that he should be able to run it into the ground, how could he possibly have been mistreated? And by whom? Himself? Obviously, he wasn't the sole proprietor. Nor does he own anything. Sure, he was one of the major contributors behind the Mozilla Foundation, but in being a non-profit foundation, Eich himself doesn't own any of it.

Being the CEO of a for-profit corporation (remember, he was CEO of Mozilla Corporation not the non-profit Foundation) does not give you the right to run the company any way you please. You're an employee accountable to the Board of Directors (and indirectly the share holders or investors who elect those Directors, or as in this case, the Directors that run the Mozilla Foundation). They can fire your ass for nearly any non-legally protected reason they want.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:35 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Carlington wrote:Point 1b, however, seems to boil down to crying First Amendment; and, as always seems to be the case when I see that argument used on the internet, it's not being applied properly here.

I don't think his first amendment rights were violated, I think he was mistreated by his employer. This man was fired not due to his performance, but rather due to his personal beliefs and political actions. That's shitty. And it's especially shitty to strip Eich of ownership of the thing he built. He was punished by his employer, and I strongly doubt that his contract forbade him from donating to political causes.

If Eich wants to fight gay marriage and the whole nation decides to boycott because that's terrible, then Eich should be able to run Mozilla into the ground. It's his baby, after all. If his politics are more important to him than his creations, then so be it.


This. Rights keep you free from government imposition. They do not entitle you to be free from criticism. I'm not a big fan of his donations and such.

Buuut, I'm also not a big fan of witch-hunts to force people from their jobs if they have an unpopular opinion. Maybe society is going a wee bit far here.

aoeu
Posts: 325
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 4:58 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby aoeu » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:54 pm UTC

aoeu wrote:Wikipedia suggests their resignations didn't necessarily have to do with Eich (i.e. WSJ is just reporting conjecture): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Eich#Resignation_from_Mozilla_Corporation . Plus I find the theory of "he had to go because all his detractors resigned" a little dubious.

To add to this a little, the original WSJ reporting was some click-baity blog [1]. Three out of six Mozilla Corp board members would be enough to block someone from becoming the CEO (but not enough to actively kick someone out) [2]. It kinda seems the three did get an opportunity to block, since apparently becoming the CEO is a matter of getting appointed by the board of directors [3].

It's a shame that nowhere it's written down what actually happened. It would make for an interesting case study.

[1] http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2014/03/28/ ... f-new-ceo/
[2] http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/legal/bylaws.html
[3] https://brendaneich.com/2014/03/mozilla-news/ https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2014/03/2 ... p-changes/
Last edited by aoeu on Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:55 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:54 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Buuut, I'm also not a big fan of witch-hunts to force people from their jobs if they have an unpopular opinion. Maybe society is going a wee bit far here.
A ) it's not society, it's a company that felt for perhaps a variety of reasons he was a bad fit, and B ) can we PLEASE stop saying he was being persecuted for his OPINION? He provided financial support to a cause that is not in line with the companies position. This is NOT just an opinion he expressed, this is an action he took.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

Heisenberg
Posts: 3789
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 8:48 pm UTC
Location: Uncertain

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:58 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:You're an employee accountable to the Board of Directors (and indirectly the share holders or investors who elect those Directors, or as in this case, the Directors that run the Mozilla Foundation). They can fire your ass for nearly any non-legally protected reason they want.
Sure, and when they uncover your political or religious beliefs and fire you because of them, that's called persecution. I'm not a fan of persecuting anyone, even people whose beliefs I despise.

User avatar
Zamfir
I built a novelty castle, the irony was lost on some.
Posts: 7604
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:43 pm UTC
Location: Nederland

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Zamfir » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:05 pm UTC

There is a difference here between regular employees, and positions such as CEO. It's part of the deal that you can be fired for more reasons than would be acceptable for a regular employee. Odds are that he even had financial compensation package for such situation.

User avatar
Ormurinn
Posts: 1033
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:42 pm UTC
Location: Suth Eoferwicscire

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Ormurinn » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:39 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Buuut, I'm also not a big fan of witch-hunts to force people from their jobs if they have an unpopular opinion. Maybe society is going a wee bit far here.
A ) it's not society, it's a company that felt for perhaps a variety of reasons he was a bad fit, and B ) can we PLEASE stop saying he was being persecuted for his OPINION? He provided financial support to a cause that is not in line with the companies position. This is NOT just an opinion he expressed, this is an action he took.


He provided money to an organisation in order to disseminate political speech. That's expressing an opinion.
"Progress" - Technological advances masking societal decay.

User avatar
Mighty Jalapeno
Inne Juste 7 Dayes I Wille Make You A Hero!
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:16 pm UTC
Location: Prince George In A Can
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:41 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Buuut, I'm also not a big fan of witch-hunts to force people from their jobs if they have an unpopular opinion. Maybe society is going a wee bit far here.
A ) it's not society, it's a company that felt for perhaps a variety of reasons he was a bad fit, and B ) can we PLEASE stop saying he was being persecuted for his OPINION? He provided financial support to a cause that is not in line with the companies position. This is NOT just an opinion he expressed, this is an action he took.

He provided money to an organisation in order to disseminate political speech. That's expressing an opinion.

He expressed his opinion by providing financial support to a cause that actively tries to restrict the freedoms and activities of a minority group. That's taking an action.

User avatar
Ormurinn
Posts: 1033
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:42 pm UTC
Location: Suth Eoferwicscire

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Ormurinn » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:47 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Buuut, I'm also not a big fan of witch-hunts to force people from their jobs if they have an unpopular opinion. Maybe society is going a wee bit far here.
A ) it's not society, it's a company that felt for perhaps a variety of reasons he was a bad fit, and B ) can we PLEASE stop saying he was being persecuted for his OPINION? He provided financial support to a cause that is not in line with the companies position. This is NOT just an opinion he expressed, this is an action he took.

He provided money to an organisation in order to disseminate political speech. That's expressing an opinion.

He expressed his opinion by providing financial support to a cause that actively tries to restrict the freedoms and activities of a minority group. That's taking an action.


At what point does my political speech stop being expression?

-I tell my work buddy I think its important to save the red-footed macaw.
-I print "save the red footed macaw" pamphlets and hand them out in town.
-I buy advertisements in the paper asking people to vote for the pro-macaw candidate in elections.
-I donate money to a group that opposes roads being built in macaw habitats.

To me all those situations fall under expression.
"Progress" - Technological advances masking societal decay.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10549
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:54 pm UTC

So what if he did was legal? That's irrelevant. What he did was unprofitable. So the board had a responsibility to fire him.

It's really up to the People and Government to ensure that "Unethical" = "Unprofitable", because you kind of have to assume by now that corporations are sociopathic.
Last edited by CorruptUser on Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:58 pm UTC, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:55 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:To me all those situations fall under expression.
Yet shockingly, none of those situations fall under 'limiting the freedoms of others'.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

Heisenberg
Posts: 3789
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 8:48 pm UTC
Location: Uncertain

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:56 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:There is a difference here between regular employees, and positions such as CEO. It's part of the deal that you can be fired for more reasons than would be acceptable for a regular employee. Odds are that he even had financial compensation package for such situation.

Do those reasons include being fired for supporting any controversial political group? Could he be fired for giving money to the Sea Shepherd, or Planned Parenthood? Is he supposed to know which organizations the board will turn a blind eye to?

User avatar
Mighty Jalapeno
Inne Juste 7 Dayes I Wille Make You A Hero!
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:16 pm UTC
Location: Prince George In A Can
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:57 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Zamfir wrote:There is a difference here between regular employees, and positions such as CEO. It's part of the deal that you can be fired for more reasons than would be acceptable for a regular employee. Odds are that he even had financial compensation package for such situation.

Do those reasons include being fired for supporting any controversial political group? Could he be fired for giving money to the Sea Shepherd, or Planned Parenthood? Is he supposed to know which organizations the board will turn a blind eye to?

A certain level of basic self-awareness and an understanding of modern society would be expected from a tech giant CEO, yes.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26823
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:01 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Buuut, I'm also not a big fan of witch-hunts to force people from their jobs if they have an unpopular opinion. Maybe society is going a wee bit far here.
A ) it's not society, it's a company that felt for perhaps a variety of reasons he was a bad fit, and B ) can we PLEASE stop saying he was being persecuted for his OPINION? He provided financial support to a cause that is not in line with the companies position. This is NOT just an opinion he expressed, this is an action he took.

He provided money to an organisation in order to disseminate political speech. That's expressing an opinion.

He expressed his opinion by providing financial support to a cause that actively tries to restrict the freedoms and activities of a minority group. That's taking an action.


At what point does my political speech stop being expression?

-I tell my work buddy I think its important to save the red-footed macaw.
-I print "save the red footed macaw" pamphlets and hand them out in town.
-I buy advertisements in the paper asking people to vote for the pro-macaw candidate in elections.
-I donate money to a group that opposes roads being built in macaw habitats.

To me all those situations fall under expression.
Expression always involves actions. It is protected in all those forms by the First Amendment from government persecution, and it is not protected by anything from criticism and other non-governmental consequences.

How deserving each of these *actions* is of opponents' criticism and e.g. calls for boycott depends on the extent to which each action actually affects anything. Donating to a political campaign is much more direct than mentioning my views to my work buddy, and much more likely to actually result in the policies I want than merely talking to some folks.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

Heisenberg
Posts: 3789
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 8:48 pm UTC
Location: Uncertain

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:03 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:
Zamfir wrote:There is a difference here between regular employees, and positions such as CEO. It's part of the deal that you can be fired for more reasons than would be acceptable for a regular employee. Odds are that he even had financial compensation package for such situation.

Do those reasons include being fired for supporting any controversial political group? Could he be fired for giving money to the Sea Shepherd, or Planned Parenthood? Is he supposed to know which organizations the board will turn a blind eye to?

A certain level of basic self-awareness and an understanding of modern society would be expected from a tech giant CEO, yes.

If only the CEO could go back in time and rip up the check the employee was writing 6 years ago!

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10549
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:04 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
Zamfir wrote:There is a difference here between regular employees, and positions such as CEO. It's part of the deal that you can be fired for more reasons than would be acceptable for a regular employee. Odds are that he even had financial compensation package for such situation.

Do those reasons include being fired for supporting any controversial political group? Could he be fired for giving money to the Sea Shepherd, or Planned Parenthood? Is he supposed to know which organizations the board will turn a blind eye to?


You missed the point. His continued employment is a liability. So he got dropped. What's so difficult to understand?

Heisenberg
Posts: 3789
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 8:48 pm UTC
Location: Uncertain

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:09 pm UTC

It's not difficult to understand, I just don't care for employers who throw their employees under the bus due to politics or religion.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26823
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:14 pm UTC

I agree in general, but don't see the relevance here.

As has been pointed out to you and others several times, he was the CEO (which is different from any other employee) and they "threw him under the bus" due to a perceived financial liability after widespread threats of a boycott, plus the fact that both his opinions and his actions ran counter to their corporate ethical philosophy.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10549
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:16 pm UTC

You mean, all of them? But in this case, at least he kind of deserved it.

Just because I will defend to death your right to say something doesn't mean you aren't a twat.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:31 pm UTC

Nor does it mean that you are exempt from the ramifications of what you say!

PEOPLE! Understand that no one is telling Eich to stop talking/thinking! They're just saying that if you choose to support groups that run contrary the ethos of the company, le shock! you may find yourself no longer welcome at said company!

This is ACTUALLY a freedom of free business thing. People getting all bent out of shape over forcing the hand of a poor oppressed baker to deny service to a gay couple SHOULD also understand that this is the flip of what they're after.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:44 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Expression always involves actions. It is protected in all those forms by the First Amendment from government persecution, and it is not protected by anything from criticism and other non-governmental consequences.

How deserving each of these *actions* is of opponents' criticism and e.g. calls for boycott depends on the extent to which each action actually affects anything. Donating to a political campaign is much more direct than mentioning my views to my work buddy, and much more likely to actually result in the policies I want than merely talking to some folks.


Certainly. This is not a first amendment issue.

Still, I am not sure that it is beneficial for society to respond to differing ideas not with words, but with an attempt to kill someone's employment. It breeds hostility and segregation of society by ideals.
And I don't much like the idea of my donations being used to determine if I deserve a job or not. I don't think we need a law against it, but I DO think we might benefit from a little moderation, and a little bit of separation between personal choices and professional ones.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Belial » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:57 pm UTC

Unlike being a programmer, where your usefulness to the job can be totally independent of your views and your questionable-ass judgment, a CEO's job is to steer the company and to be the public face of its ethical, social, and business policy.

Which means that, when you are a CEO, unlike other positions, decisions like this actually reflect on your qualification. Making decisions that are contrary to the corporate culture and ethical stances of the company actually make you less qualified to have your job. Conversely, keeping you in the job can be seen as a statement by the company that your actions are not actually out of line with their purpose

In other words, how many times do we have to say "being a CEO is different from other jobs" before people stop making this a generic issue of companies "coming after peoples' employment" when they make bad political decisions?
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

cphite
Posts: 1370
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby cphite » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:57 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:
Heisenberg wrote:
Zamfir wrote:There is a difference here between regular employees, and positions such as CEO. It's part of the deal that you can be fired for more reasons than would be acceptable for a regular employee. Odds are that he even had financial compensation package for such situation.

Do those reasons include being fired for supporting any controversial political group? Could he be fired for giving money to the Sea Shepherd, or Planned Parenthood? Is he supposed to know which organizations the board will turn a blind eye to?

A certain level of basic self-awareness and an understanding of modern society would be expected from a tech giant CEO, yes.


It depends on the CEO, apparently.

The guy who called Eich out for supporting Prop 8 donated to the campaign of rep. Chris Cannon (R-Utah) who campaigned on and later voted for a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, voted against a ban on sexual-orientation based job discrimination, and voted for prohibition of gay adoptions.

Interestingly, the folks who believe Eich deserves to be run out of a job for a donation he made six years ago, have no problem siding with a CEO who supported one of the most ardently anti-gay members of Congress in the last decade...

User avatar
Mighty Jalapeno
Inne Juste 7 Dayes I Wille Make You A Hero!
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:16 pm UTC
Location: Prince George In A Can
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:02 pm UTC

Belial wrote:In other words, how many times do we have to say "being a CEO is different from other jobs" before people stop making this a generic issue of companies "coming after peoples' employment" when they make bad political decisions?

Seven. Please consult the Mod Chart.

User avatar
omgryebread
Posts: 1393
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:03 am UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby omgryebread » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:04 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Still, I am not sure that it is beneficial for society to respond to differing ideas not with words, but with an attempt to kill someone's employment. It breeds hostility and segregation of society by ideals.
And I don't much like the idea of my donations being used to determine if I deserve a job or not. I don't think we need a law against it, but I DO think we might benefit from a little moderation, and a little bit of separation between personal choices and professional ones.
I see your point, but I'm not very sympathetic, especially here.

Brendan Eich and I have differing ideas about marriage. Rather than, as you say, responding to my idea of marriage with words, he responded by trying to pass a law against the marriage I want. OkCupid attempted to kill his employment, he attempted to kill peoples' marriage.

This wasn't a personal choice, it was in fact, as far removed from a personal choice as possible: Proposition 8 didn't affect Eich's person in the least. Furthermore, with a CEO of a big company like Mozilla (as with any public figure) the line blurs between personal and professional. Eich's choices of donations affect the company he works for.

cphite wrote:It depends on the CEO, apparently.

The guy who called Eich out for supporting Prop 8 donated to the campaign of rep. Chris Cannon (R-Utah) who campaigned on and later voted for a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, voted against a ban on sexual-orientation based job discrimination, and voted for prohibition of gay adoptions.

Interestingly, the folks who believe Eich deserves to be run out of a job for a donation he made six years ago, have no problem siding with a CEO who supported one of the most ardently anti-gay members of Congress in the last decade...
If you want to start a boycott of OkCupid, I'll join in exactly as much as I did with the boycott of Firefox. Given that I didn't use Firefox before this, and I don't use OkCupid now, that's not worth much, but sure.

Of course, the CEO of OkCupid, unlike Eich, actually responded and said he wouldn't make that contribution again. It's not an apology, but both the original offense was less severe (donating to a politician for presumably other views he held vs. donating to a single issue campaign) and his response was better than Eich's (nothing.)
avatar from Nononono by Lynn Okamoto.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:07 pm UTC

cphite wrote:Interestingly, the folks who believe Eich deserves to be run out of a job for a donation he made six years ago, have no problem siding with a CEO who supported one of the most ardently anti-gay members of Congress in the last decade...
It also bears repeating then that at no point has Eich commented on regretting the decision, changing his mind, and/or what his new outlook is.

Which I'm going to take to mean he still believes homosexual individuals shouldn't have the same rights as heterosexual individuals. Which means he's a pretty shitty CEO.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26823
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:12 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:And I don't much like the idea of my donations being used to determine if I deserve a job or not.
I don't like that idea either, but as with Heisenberg's point, I can't believe you honestly still believe that's what's happening here.

Rather, someone's donations were used to determine if he deserved a job as the CEO of the Mozilla Corporation. And I for one am *completely* comfortable with the political speech and monetary actions of a CEO being used to determine whether that person is fit to remain CEO.

cphite wrote:The guy who called Eich out for supporting Prop 8 donated to the campaign of rep. Chris Cannon (R-Utah) who campaigned on and later voted for a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, voted against a ban on sexual-orientation based job discrimination, and voted for prohibition of gay adoptions.

Interestingly, the folks who believe Eich deserves to be run out of a job for a donation he made six years ago, have no problem siding with a CEO who supported one of the most ardently anti-gay members of Congress in the last decade...
It would be neat if people would stop being so fucking thick as to continue posting arguments that have already been addressed repeatedly.

1) Opposing Eich does not imply "siding with" Yagan.
2) Yagan's donation was half as much as Eich's, and matched by a later donation to Obama's campaign (I'm not saying this completely makes up for it, but it is conceivable to see that as less bad than donating only to a cause I oppose).
3) Yagan, like the previously mentioned CEO of HP, seems to have changed his tune on gay marriage in the intervening decade, whereas Eich has not indicated any such change of heart.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

Heisenberg
Posts: 3789
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 8:48 pm UTC
Location: Uncertain

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:19 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Rather, someone's donations were used to determine if he deserved a job as the CEO of the Mozilla Corporation. And I for one am *completely* comfortable with the political speech and monetary actions of a CEO being used to determine whether that person is fit to remain CEO.

If that were the case, why was he promoted to CEO in the first place? This donation has not only been public knowledge, it made the news 2 years ago. So if the board felt his donations made him unfit for the job, why was he given the job in the first place?

User avatar
Mighty Jalapeno
Inne Juste 7 Dayes I Wille Make You A Hero!
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:16 pm UTC
Location: Prince George In A Can
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:20 pm UTC

... the first post in this actual thread kinda covers that. It wasn't an "issue" until there was public outcry.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26823
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:26 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:Rather, someone's donations were used to determine if he deserved a job as the CEO of the Mozilla Corporation. And I for one am *completely* comfortable with the political speech and monetary actions of a CEO being used to determine whether that person is fit to remain CEO.

If that were the case, why was he promoted to CEO in the first place? This donation has not only been public knowledge, it made the news 2 years ago. So if the board felt his donations made him unfit for the job, why was he given the job in the first place?
Because they didn't know at that time that there would be public outcry as a result of those donations?

Are you really not understanding this?
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
MartianInvader
Posts: 809
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:51 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby MartianInvader » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:11 pm UTC

What exactly is Heisenberg advocating here? A law that would force people to continue using a product if the only thing that's changed is their perception of an employee? Or a law that prevents companies from firing an employee if that employee's employment is hurting their business? Or some way of preventing a CEO from stepping down?
Let's have a fervent argument, mostly over semantics, where we all claim the burden of proof is on the other side!

cphite
Posts: 1370
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

Re: Brendan Eich steps down as Mozilla CEO

Postby cphite » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:15 pm UTC

1) Opposing Eich does not imply "siding with" Yagan.


No; it simply implies a degree of hypocrisy on the part of those who are condemning Eich while excusing Yagan for the same thing.

2) Yagan's donation was half as much as Eich's, and matched by a later donation to Obama's campaign (I'm not saying this completely makes up for it, but it is conceivable to see that as less bad than donating only to a cause I oppose).


He still threw in with someone who clearly held the exact same positions that folks are claiming to be offended by. Cannon wasn't shy about his beliefs - they were a central theme to his campaign. Wanting to prohibit same sex marriage wasn't even the worst one - this is someone who actively opposed laws that would prevent discrimination in the workplace. If making a donation to a cause implies support for that cause, then making one to a candidate implies support for said candidate - and for their platform.

3) Yagan, like the previously mentioned CEO of HP, seems to have changed his tune on gay marriage in the intervening decade, whereas Eich has not indicated any such change of heart.


Did he change his tune on the other stuff? Workplace discrimination? The adoption ban? Or does donating to Obama cover all of that, too? It'd be helpful to know at exactly what point he was absolved for supporting one of the most hateful, bigoted members of Congress in recent history.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests