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Zarq
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Zarq » Fri May 30, 2014 11:48 am UTC

Envelope Generator wrote:The -uff/-off vowel difference totally stumps me, as an ESL speaker. The distinction seems so subtle to me that I don't understand how it can persist, yet it will burn you viciously when you try to play crambo on a forum with native speakers.


I hear the difference, but to me they sound close enough to rhyme more or less. And I probably always pronounce "enough" incorrectly.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby eSOANEM » Fri May 30, 2014 12:30 pm UTC

English has a pretty large vowel inventory compared to a lot of other languages. The number of different vowels all bound up in that tiny corner around the open back vowel is ridiculous.

In my accent, I count at least 5 different monophthongs nearer that corner than any other ([ɔ], [ɒ], [ɑ], [ɐ] and [ɜ] although, admittedly, the last isn't phonemic, but rather the realisation of /er/).

In contrast, the front open corner has 2 ([æ] and [ɛ]), the front close corner has 2 ([i] and [ɪ]) and the back close corner also only has 2 ([u] and [ʊ]). There's also [ə] which is equidistant from the 4 corners.

For me, enough rhymes -ɐf whilst cough rhymes -ɒf and, whilst the two are quite close, the second is rounded and the first isn't. Idk, seeing as most native english speakers struggle to distinguish [y] from [u] when they're at completely opposite corners of the mouth you're still doing better than a lot of people not being able to readily distinguish them.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby SecondTalon » Fri May 30, 2014 1:36 pm UTC

It really doesn't help that we use the same six symbols for eighty bajillion vowel sounds.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Whizbang » Fri May 30, 2014 2:03 pm UTC

But if we add more symbols, would we still be able to sing them using Twinkle Twinkle Little Star?

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby eSOANEM » Fri May 30, 2014 3:59 pm UTC

It's simple, the alphabet goes:

p, t, k, b, d, g, m, n, ŋ, f, þ, s, ʃ, h, v, ð, z, ʒ, w, ȝ, l, r, i, u, ɪ, ʊ, e, ə, æ, ɜ, ɔ, ɒ, o, ɐ and ɑ

I think that's all the phonemes in my dialect, mostly represented as IPA but with a couple of exceptions because there are Old-English alternatives to the IPA letters (I did keep w rather than ƿ though) or because it would mean using an epsilon rather than an e (or similar).

I'm not sure how many phonemes that comes to because I keep counting a different number from a different list which seems to contain exactly the same constituents. Anyway, here's this post written in that script (and spelt phonetically):

Some of the reduced vowels become very close to ə so I may have been a little inconsistent with how/whether I distinguish between ɪ & ɜ and ə. I've also marked stress with acute accents.

Spoiler:
ɪt's sɪ́mpəl, þə ǽlfəbet góz:

p, t, k, b, d, g, m, n, ŋ, f, þ, s, ʃ, h, v, ð, z, ʒ, w, ȝ, l, r, i, u, ɪ, ʊ, e, ə, æ, ɜ, ɔ, ɒ, o, ɐ ǽnd ɑ

aɪ þɪ́nk ðat's ɔl ðe fónimz ɪn maȝ dáɪəlekt, móstli réprəzentɪd æz AFÆ bɐt wɪð ə fȝú əksépʃʊnz bəcəz ðeə ɑ ɒ́ʊld-ɪ́ŋglɪʃ ɔltɜ́nətivz tə ðə AFÆ létɜz (aɪ dɪ́d kip w rɑ́ðɜ ðən ƿ ðó) ɔ́ bəcəz ɪ́t wʊd min ȝúzɪŋ ən épsɪlɒn rɑ́ðɜ ðæn ən e (ɔ sɪ́mɪlə).

aɪ'm nɒ́t ʃɔ́ hæʊ méni fónimz ðæt cɐ́mz tu bəcəz aɪ kíp kǽʊntɪŋ ə dɪ́frənt nɐ́mbə frɒm ə dɪ́frənt lɪ́st wɪtʃ símz tə cəntéɪn əkzǽktli ðə séɪm cənstɪ́tʃuənts. éniwéɪ, ðɪ́s wɒz wɒt ðɪ́s póst wʊd lʊk láɪk ɪv ɪt wɜ rɪ́tən ɪn ðís skrɪ́pt (ǽnd spelt fənétɪcli).

sɐ́m ɒv ðə rədʒúst vǽʊlz bəcɐ́m véri clós tə ə so aɪ méɪ həv bín ə lɪ́təl ɪ́ncənsɪ́stənt wɪð hǽʊ/wéðɜ aɪ dəstɪ́ŋgwɪʃ bətwín ɪ & ɜ ǽnd ə. aɪ'v ɔ́lso mɑkt strés wɪð əkjút ǽksənts.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Tomlidich the second » Fri May 30, 2014 4:31 pm UTC

I am starting to assume "flat rate" actually means "flat package" to the USPS:

Image

the photo doesn't do justice to how mangled this box arrived at my doorstep. any more, and it would be a box shaped paper bag.

The contents, being spent brass shell casings for reloading, came mostly unharmed (due to the amazing amount of padded flat rate envelopes used to cushion it) some dents and dings, messed up necks, etc, nothing that will not come out in the sizing process. unsure whether that was USPS fault or just general handling (it does happen) but this box was stamped with no less than 11 fragile stamps on all sides, someone had to have read it. and they can't assume anything about the contents for all they knew, it could have been soemthign equally dense yet fragile, like an urn of my grandfathers ashes, or camera lenses.
Image

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Whizbang » Fri May 30, 2014 4:44 pm UTC


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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri May 30, 2014 6:50 pm UTC

Envelope Generator wrote:The -uff/-off vowel difference totally stumps me, as an ESL speaker. The distinction seems so subtle to me that I don't understand how it can persist, yet it will burn you viciously when you try to play crambo on a forum with native speakers.

You think that's hard, try distinguishing between "cot" and "caught" without turning one or the other of them into either "cat" or "coat".

(To my ear "cot" and "caught" both have the same vowel as "cough", while "cuff", which rhymes with "enough", has the same vowel as "cut").
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby freezeblade » Fri May 30, 2014 7:08 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:(To my ear "cot" and "caught" both have the same vowel as "cough", while "cuff", which rhymes with "enough", has the same vowel as "cut").


(if i remember correctly, you're in cali) That's because our accent has cut out and merged quite a few vowel sounds in the journey west.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_English
another notable merger is "rang" and "rain" having the same vowel sound, but different than "ran"
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Envelope Generator » Fri May 30, 2014 7:24 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Envelope Generator wrote:The -uff/-off vowel difference totally stumps me, as an ESL speaker. The distinction seems so subtle to me that I don't understand how it can persist, yet it will burn you viciously when you try to play crambo on a forum with native speakers.

You think that's hard, try distinguishing between "cot" and "caught" without turning one or the other of them into either "cat" or "coat".

(To my ear "cot" and "caught" both have the same vowel as "cough", while "cuff", which rhymes with "enough", has the same vowel as "cut").


To me "cot", "cut" and "cart" have for all intensive porpoises the same vowel sound... so disregarding vowel length the difference between "cot" and "caught" is the difference between "cart" and "court".
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri May 30, 2014 8:12 pm UTC

That... maybe actually helps me understand what people are hearing different in "caught".

Question for people without the cot-caught merger: is the vowel sound in "caught" a monophthong or a diphthong?

Because to my ear "court" has a diphthong in it, an "oh-er" sound; "oh" as in "boat" or "load" or "lone" or "bone", and "er" as in "serve" or "curve" or "bird" or "turd" or "third" (a rhoticized schwa), diphthonged (if I may verb a noun) together. "Coh-ert", but one syllable.

So if "caught" also has a diphthong in it, then I think I get it, if it's like an "oh-ah" sound. "Oh" as above, and "ah" as in "cot" or "bot" or "hot" or "father" or "bar" or "dawn". "Coh-aht", but one syllable? Is that it? Versus just "caht" for "cot" (which would also be the non-rhotic pronunciation of "cart")?

And for non-rhotic non-cot-caught-merged people like Envelope above: are "caught" and "court" homophones? Are "cot" and "cart"? In say, "the man in the court caught the ball", are you repeating a sound? How about in "put the bedding on the cot cart for transport"?
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby freezeblade » Fri May 30, 2014 8:26 pm UTC

I believe that most (I hear it's about 60%) pronounce it as a diphthong. It helps to try and fake a "southern" accent in your head to hear it, as most areas of the south have kept the distinction between the words. I think this is the same merger that's responsible for making "don, dawn" or "hock, hawk" homophones.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby eSOANEM » Fri May 30, 2014 8:28 pm UTC

caught and court aren't homophones for me (RP so non-rhotic unmerged). Court seems to have a slightly longer vowel.

Final r's in RP in complicated. Generally, I'd say it's a non-rhotic [ə̯] but that often colours the vowel in front of it (turning /er/ [ɛ] into [ɜ] for instance). Here, I don't think the [ə̯] is present at all, but seems to contribute a tiny bit of extra length to the [ɔ].
my pronouns are they

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby freezeblade » Fri May 30, 2014 9:15 pm UTC

Methinks we should have a whole thread on this.

Also, this might tickle your fancy about the english language.

"The Chaos" by Dr. Gerard Nolst Trenité
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~clamen/misc/humour/TheChaos.html

Displays many eccentricities in the english language.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri May 30, 2014 10:04 pm UTC

So I think this is a complete list of sounds I'm able to distinguish and articulate, illustrated as best as possible by minimal sets:

"Look", "Lock", "Lack", "Let", "Lick"
"Luke", "Bloke", "Luck", "Lake", "Leek"

"Wack", "Rack", "Yak"

"Vat", "That", "Zap", "Jaques"1, Gh*, "Hat"
"Fat", "Thought"1, "Sat", "Shat", Kh*, '*

Br*, Dr*, Gr*

"Pun", "Ton", "Cunt"
"Bun", "Dun", "Gun"
'P*, 'T*, 'K*

"Beam", "Bean", "Bing"

And L as in all those vowel examples at the top. Fuck L for not fitting in anywhere nicely.

1 I couldn't think of good minimal pairs for these, even keeping the same vowel and changing other consonants, so I've had to change the vowel here too. I'm noting it so people don't think "Jaques" and "Jack" rhyme to me, or heaven forbid "thought" and "that".

*These are sounds I can distinguish, but never use in English so have no good example words to use for minimal pairs because I only know a handful of foreign words that use them. "Gh" as in "Baghdad"; "Kh" as in the unvoiced version of that sound, for which I can't even think of any examples at the moment; ' as in the glottal stop between the last two vowels in Hawai'i and similar Polynesian words; "Dr" being a trilled "R" (or, with only one roll, an alveolar tap, like the Japanese L/R sound, or the "dd" in "udder"), and "Br" and "Gr" being sounds I've never heard in actual language but which are used as sounds in and of themselves and seem phonetically related, namely the trilled bilabial sound people make when they're cold ("brrrrr!"), and the trilled velar sound of a growl ("grrrrr!"); and 'P, 'T, and 'K being the inhaling "click" versions of P, T, and K, which I can clearly distinguish and make but never use in language.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby bessie » Sat May 31, 2014 2:02 am UTC

I can't believe how clueless the "top management" at my work are. They just fired the guy that actually knows how to do everything.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Magnanimous » Sat May 31, 2014 2:10 am UTC

freezeblade wrote:"The Chaos" by Dr. Gerard Nolst Trenité
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~clamen/misc/humour/TheChaos.html

There's also the famous Chinese poem.
Spoiler:
« Shī Shì shí shī shǐ »

Shíshì shīshì Shī Shì, shì shī, shì shí shí shī.
Shì shíshí shì shì shì shī.
Shí shí, shì shí shī shì shì.
Shì shí, shì Shī Shì shì shì.
Shì shì shì shí shī, shì shǐ shì, shǐ shì shí shī shìshì.
Shì shí shì shí shī shī, shì shíshì.
Shíshì shī, Shì shǐ shì shì shíshì.
Shíshì shì, Shì shǐ shì shí shì shí shī.
Shí shí, shǐ shí shì shí shī shī, shí shí shí shī shī.
Shì shì shì shì.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby addams » Sat May 31, 2014 2:13 am UTC

bessie wrote:I can't believe how clueless the "top management" at my work are. They just fired the guy that actually knows how to do everything.

ok. That is interesting.
What happened?

One guy knows how everything is done and can step in and do most of it?
They fired The Project Manager? (is that funny?)

The Project Manager can be gone for Days or even Weeks before a well functioning Project starts to come apart.
Was The Project functioning well? Keep Records!

Maybe If you beg them, they will give the Project Manager back.
Maybe he has gone On Holiday. Did you not appreciate him?

If he goes on Holiday and then comes back just as you begin to Really Need him.
Well...It will make you appreciative. I suppose.

It is, sort of, a mean thing to do.
It's like faking your own death. (sort of. right?)
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby bigglesworth » Sat May 31, 2014 10:27 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:don't think "Jaques" and "Jack" rhyme to me
Wow, really? Fascinating. What's the difference?
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby yurell » Sat May 31, 2014 10:58 am UTC

I may be pronouncing it wrong, but to me 'Jaques' thymes with 'bark' and 'Jack' rhymes with 'back'
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Pronouns: Feminine pronouns please!

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Zarq » Sat May 31, 2014 2:25 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:don't think "Jaques" and "Jack" rhyme to me
Wow, really? Fascinating. What's the difference?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zuQae2OrMI
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby bigglesworth » Sat May 31, 2014 2:26 pm UTC

Ah, I was wrong then.
Generation Y. I don't remember the First Gulf War, but do remember floppy disks.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby eSOANEM » Sat May 31, 2014 2:42 pm UTC

Looking on wiktionary, my initial suspicions seems to have been correct.

The actual French sound isn't really a [æ] or [ɑ] but rather pretty much a [a] which is sort of halfway between. The normal pronunciation by English-speakers tends to the back [ɑ] (father) but what I hear in their recording of a Parisian saying Jacques is much closer to the front [æ] (back).

So yeah. Counting them as rhyming really isn't pushing it.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Adacore » Sat May 31, 2014 2:58 pm UTC

Tomlidich the second wrote:The contents, being spent brass shell casings for reloading, came mostly unharmed (due to the amazing amount of padded flat rate envelopes used to cushion it) some dents and dings, messed up necks, etc, nothing that will not come out in the sizing process. unsure whether that was USPS fault or just general handling (it does happen) but this box was stamped with no less than 11 fragile stamps on all sides, someone had to have read it. and they can't assume anything about the contents for all they knew, it could have been soemthign equally dense yet fragile, like an urn of my grandfathers ashes, or camera lenses.

I read something once posted by a former parcel handler. Maybe on Cracked? Anyway, it basically said that the first thing you learn on the job is that every package says 'fragile', and if you treat them all that way you physically can't meet the deadlines, so unless they have a really good reason to handle something with care (like it looks like something sent by/to an adorable small child, or is marked as containing something that nobody wants to have accidentally getting on them), they'll just treat every package the same and throw them around.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby SurgicalSteel » Sat May 31, 2014 3:39 pm UTC

So I should label every package "To my favorite little niece: 5 pounds of Gorilla Snot"
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Anchorman screams that he's seen a monster (mayday)
There's blood stains on his shirt (mayday)
They say that he's gone berserk."
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby SecondTalon » Sat May 31, 2014 6:39 pm UTC

No, because the problem exists due to people shipping their books as "fragile" when, short of getting them wet or setting them on fire, there's not a lot you can do to books to hurt them.

Doing that means they'll just stop treating any package as fragile.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby speising » Sat May 31, 2014 7:25 pm UTC

just like priority in support tickets, the labeling as fragile should never be done by the customer. the decision should be made by the shipping company, perhaps with a short questionaire.
the important thing is that the algorithm is opaque to the customer, so it can't be rigged.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Angua » Sat May 31, 2014 7:27 pm UTC

How would you be able to do that? Some things are always going to be fragile (eg a set of crystal glasses) - you can't have an opaque algorithm around that.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby SurgicalSteel » Sat May 31, 2014 9:58 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:No, because the problem exists due to people shipping their books as "fragile" when, short of getting them wet or setting them on fire, there's not a lot you can do to books to hurt them.

Doing that means they'll just stop treating any package as fragile.
I was joking. I'm well aware of the "when everything is Pri 1, nothing is" principle.
"There's spray paint on the teleprompter
Anchorman screams that he's seen a monster (mayday)
There's blood stains on his shirt (mayday)
They say that he's gone berserk."
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby addams » Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:16 am UTC

People Suck.
Some are down right frightening AssHoles.

The Shipping News??
How did the Painting with True Emotion Thread get to be The Shipping News??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shipping_News
Did you read that Book? I highly recommend it.

In the US they often have a Deal at the US Post Office.
A user friendly approach.

This is the Box.
It ships for a Flat Rate.


I stood there and figured out what the Heaviest thing I could put in that Box is and the Farthest I could send it.
I Suck, Too!

A person Can't Do User Friendly with US!
We Suck!
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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby firechicago » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:16 am UTC

speising wrote:just like priority in support tickets, the labeling as fragile should never be done by the customer. the decision should be made by the shipping company, perhaps with a short questionaire.
the important thing is that the algorithm is opaque to the customer, so it can't be rigged.

Presumably all you would have to do to break the algorithm is imagine something really fragile that's roughly the same size and weight as what you're sending and then answer the questions as if that's what was in the package. The immunity of the procedure to this sort of gaming would be directly in proportion to the percentage of false negatives it would generate (i.e. 100% immunity means 100% false negatives, which is basically the system we have now.)

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Pfhorrest » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:52 am UTC

Have the shippers inspect the contents of the package beforehand to determine if it's fragile according to their standards or not.

Don't allow the inspection, your package is considered not fragile.

Don't like that, you can pay a special extra fee to get your package special fragile handling without inspection.

Or just let them look in the box and judge for themselves whether it's really fragile.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby PeteP » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:56 am UTC

Well if you spent time checking the inside of a packet you could just as well handle it carefully, because the problem with handling stuff like it is fragile is that it costs time.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Pfhorrest » Sun Jun 01, 2014 4:01 am UTC

But looking inside the package only has to be done at the first step of the entire process, then it gets properly labelled and (in the majority of cases where it's not fragile) can just be tossed around with wild abandon for the rest of the journey.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby addams » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:32 am UTC

Waaa!
I am Not Nice, sometimes.
I get fed up.

Then, I was was Not Nice.
Like Dr. Bob used to say,
"No More Mr. Nice Guy."

He coddled us.
Then he said, "No more Mr. Nice Guy."
Then we had Big Boy Standards to live up to.

The first two weeks of every semester were coddling.
Review and Filling in Blanks. Then Work!

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People live complicated lives. Me, too; I suppose.

Were you ever told, "To Live a Simple Life is Man's most Complicated Task."
I was. It still rings Real and Firm and True. To me, it does.
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby bessie » Mon Jun 02, 2014 4:54 am UTC

Thanks addams for replying to my earlier post. He was like the Project Manager, but without the title. But now he's the scapegoat and he won't be back.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby addams » Mon Jun 02, 2014 5:09 am UTC

bessie wrote:Thanks addams for replying to my earlier post. He was like the Project Manager, but without the title. But now he's the scapegoat and he won't be back.

I am sorry for all of you.
A good project manager will find another team.

Your poor team.
You will get blamed.

Then the whole thing will fall- the fuck- apart.
As you are packing up your shit in the chaos, at the end, you can mention his name.

Do you keep in touch?
Maybe he can take good team members with him to a new and better place.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby Giant Speck » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:01 am UTC

The official Scrabble app for iOS devices is perfect. No advertisements, a "teacher" mode, and I can play up to three computer players at the same time.

The official Scrabble app is crap. I can do all of the above, except after each and every turn, an advertisement pops up. Sometimes it's a thirty-second video advertisement that I cannot skip.

There is no paid version of this app and you can't get rid of the advertisements. What the fuck?
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BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE BOUNCE

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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby yurell » Mon Jun 02, 2014 9:38 am UTC

My mechanical keyboard went haywire today, with tonnes of keys randomly repeating — this was a huge issue since one of them was 'prnt scrn', and so it was copying hundreds of screencaps into DropBox and trying to upload them (it filled my RAM in seconds). Finally got it calmed down, but every time I typed anything in the number row up the top, an eight would appear, so I pulled out all the keys, cleaned it, and put it back together (and ended up with spare parts >.>). Now the number eight doesn't follow any number I type (which is nice), but the eight key itself doesn't work (although the numberpad 8 is functioning just fine).

Unfortunately, I spontaneously I get a huge pile of eights, and I have no idea why. I have no idea what's going on — I would suspect liquid or something got into it, but I'm the only one that uses my keyboard, and I'm pretty confident that I haven't gotten anything in it.
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Re: Pant Thread (because we need more panting)

Postby eran_rathan » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:56 pm UTC

speising wrote:just like priority in support tickets, the labeling as fragile should never be done by the customer. the decision should be made by the shipping company, perhaps with a short questionaire.
the important thing is that the algorithm is opaque to the customer, so it can't be rigged.



I find that writing "WARNING: BIOHAZARD" (MSDS safety stickers optional) on the box makes sure things come through with virtually no damage.

I've also used "HAZARDOUS WASTE", though I've gotten letters asking me to stop doing that (technically, computer equipment is hazardous waste, so I wasn't technically lying).
"Does this smell like chloroform to you?"
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nɒʜƚɒɿ_nɒɿɘ


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