Sydney Siege

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Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:43 am UTC

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-ne ... -cafe-live
Up to 30 staff and customers are being held at a cafe in Sydney’s CBD surrounded by heavily armed New South Wales police. Some inside the cafe were apparently forced to stand at the cafe’s windows holding up a flag bearing what appears to be the Islamic creed

The Sydney Opera House was evacuated for a non-specified reason but police have since left the scene.



Prime minister Tony Abbott and NSW police commissioner Andrew Scipione say the motives of the siege are not known.

Or, as News Corp put it:
Image

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:53 am UTC

Channel 10 is the third media outlet saying they have been contacted by hostages in the Lindt cafe. The hostages said the offender has two demands:

[REDACTED]
Last edited by K-R on Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:53 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Angua » Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:45 am UTC

Asking for a flag seems a bit weird, though the bbc article says that the flag is similar but distinct from the ISIL one, so I guess they just couldn't get one and need to correct that.

My best wishes go out to those in Sidney. I hope this turns out to be an isolated incident.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:58 am UTC

NSW deputy police commissioner, Catherine Burn, is giving another press conference.
I won’t clarify any operation tactics at the moment. It is really important to remember that this is ongoing, that we still have people who are being held. We still have a person that we are dealing with. So as soon as we are able to provide that information, we certainly will but the good news is that we do have five people who have come out of that building and that we are now dealing with.
Interesting to note Burn keeps referring to “a person” so it seems there is only one gunman, a detail that has not been emphatically confirmed today.


Regarding the flag:
The hostages were forced to raise a black flag with white writing. It has been wrongly reported as a flag of Islamic State. The flag appears to bear the Shahada, an Islamic creed which reads: “There is no god but God, Muhammad is the messenger of God.” It can be a benign symbol and appears across the Islamic world, including on the Saudi Arabian flag. But it has also been embraced by jihadi groups such as Jabhat Al-Nusra, an al-Qaida affiliate currently fighting in Syria.



(Unless otherwise noted, all quotes are taken from the Guardian page linked in the OP, which is updating throughout the day.)



EDIT: http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw-act ... 7156965180

Also, people are dicks:
Image
Last edited by K-R on Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:07 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby WilliamLehnsherr » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:03 am UTC

The Daily Telegraph... The Fox News of Australia...

Hopefully everyone will be alright. It doesn't look like they'll be free today, but I'm being optimistic.

The "all muslims are terrorists" crowd has been having a ball with this, which is an additional downside.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:09 am UTC

WilliamLehnsherr wrote:The "all muslims are terrorists" crowd has been having a ball with this, which is an additional downside.

Some bloke went down specifically to yell about how terrible Islam is, and was escorted away by police according to the Guardian.

EDIT:
Below is an image of the alleged gunman. The image has been making the rounds on social media for a few hours but the Guardian waited to view extended footage of him before posting it.
Image

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:37 am UTC

The Channel 7 newsroom looks directly into the Lindt Cafe where five hostages are under siege from a gunman. Reporter Chris Reason has been tweeting what he could see and says they are now huddled at one end of the cafe after being fed earlier.

Here's his Twitter account: http://www.twitter.com/chrisreason7

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby jestingrabbit » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:40 am UTC

I keep thinking about how much money we spend on this sort of thing, and how little we spend on dealing with domestic violence. Domestic violence kills 50 women a year. Terrorists have racked up a massive tally of one person stabbed, who survived. That's their tally for the last couple of decades in Australia.

And now there's this. Wall to wall media attention for a guy who, perhaps, didn't realise the difference between what he had and an ISIS flag, or else couldn't get his hands on the real deal, who has seemingly let 5 of his hostages escape. I mean, we've been told that there are less than 30 people in there. 340 people died on NSW roads last year, so, worst case, it'll take a month for the road toll to overtake whatever this guy does.

We're just totally out of whack in how we think about this stuff.

Also, NSW police are asking that the demands not be publicised, so please consider that.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Gopher of Pern » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:42 am UTC

Does seem a little sloppy. Apparently hostages have been calling out, texting their loved ones. Not sure what to think.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:52 am UTC

Police have identified the gunman but have asked media outlets not to publish his name. At this stage there is only one confirmed gunman.

Mosques, synagogues and churches across Australia are inviting the public to gather tonight to pray for a peaceful resolution to the siege at Lindt Cafe in Sydney in a show of multi-faith unity.

Prime Minister Tony Abbott has said the gunman has political motivations in a statement to media:
This is a very disturbing incident. It is profoundly shocking that innocent people should be held hostage by an armed person claiming political motivation.

Premier Mike Baird and NSW police commissioner, Andrew Scipione, are due to give another press conference in about half an hour.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby addams » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:19 am UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:I keep thinking about how much money we spend on this sort of thing, and how little we spend on dealing with domestic violence. Domestic violence kills 50 women a year. Terrorists have racked up a massive tally of one person stabbed, who survived. That's their tally for the last couple of decades in Australia.

And now there's this. Wall to wall media attention for a guy who, perhaps, didn't realise the difference between what he had and an ISIS flag, or else couldn't get his hands on the real deal, who has seemingly let 5 of his hostages escape. I mean, we've been told that there are less than 30 people in there. 340 people died on NSW roads last year, so, worst case, it'll take a month for the road toll to overtake whatever this guy does.

We're just totally out of whack in how we think about this stuff.

Also, NSW police are asking that the demands not be publicised, so please consider that.

You and I seem to have similar perspectives.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby jestingrabbit » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:22 am UTC

Well, looks like we're in for the long haul, about 12hrs in and they're telling people not to go to work tomorrow if their place of work is in the exclusion zone. So, night folks, hopefully wake up to a captured doofus so that he can be tried and shown for what he is.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby WilliamLehnsherr » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:35 am UTC

In the meantime, we have this circulating.

Spoiler:
Image


I think we should let these people go to the middle east and fight ISIS. With any luck they'll both kill each other (without killing innocents).

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby addams » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:10 am UTC

I read that ISIS is a group of fifty retired guys of some kind.
The American TEA Baggers are a larger, more radical and more dangerous group.

Do the Baggers have an outlet in Australia?
It would only be fair.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby ConMan » Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:33 am UTC

On the plus side (inasmuch as there is one), it has inspired the hashtag #illridewithyou - people declaring that if any muslims (or anyone else who might face an angry mob in the light of this event) feel unsafe on their public transport, that they'll sit with them for solidarity and protection.

That said, the article lauding the generosity shown by this hashtag came from news.com.au, part of the same corporation that produced that lovely hate-mongering front page spread. :|
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:04 pm UTC

WilliamLehnsherr wrote:I think we should let these people go to the middle east and fight ISIS. With any luck they'll both kill each other (without killing innocents).


No, they will kill a lot of innocents too and then next year we will have 5 ISIS's.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:51 pm UTC

News Corp and other news organisations have named the suspected gunman. The Guardian has asked NSW police for advice, and they have informed us that there are no longer any operational reasons not to report his name, so we can reveal that he is Man Haron Monis, also known as Sheikh Haron.

Man Haron Monis, the man named as the alleged hostage-taker, is a 49-year-old self-styled “Muslim cleric and peace activist”, my colleague Michael Safi reports.

Iranian-born Monis told ABC News in 2001 that he fled to Australia five years earlier after falling foul of the Iranian regime, which had placed his wife and children under house arrest. “I can say they are hostage,” he said at the time.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:09 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
WilliamLehnsherr wrote:I think we should let these people go to the middle east and fight ISIS. With any luck they'll both kill each other (without killing innocents).


No, they will kill a lot of innocents too and then next year we will have 5 ISIS's.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:37 pm UTC

There has been a flurry of activity in the last 25 minutes – here’s what we know:
*Several hostages – thought to number five to seven – have fled the cafe.
*Loud bangs have been heard and police confirm live ammunition has been used.
*Other people have been removed from the scene, some on stretchers, apparently needing medical attention. There are unconfirmed reports that four hostages have been injured.
*A bomb disposal robot has gone into the building.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby jestingrabbit » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:38 pm UTC

Seems like its all over in a hail of bullets. Not clear what happened atm, but a large number of hostages have left, there has been gunfire or similiar, the exclusion zone remains in place. I guess we'll get word in a half hour or so.

eta: they're saying the siege is now over, so that's good.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:56 pm UTC

NSW Police say they cannot confirm breaking reports that two people have died in the Sydney siege, saying all they can confirm is that the siege is over.

Police have confirmed that the siege is over but there has been no update on the status of the hostage-taker(s) or the hostages.

We do know that several people were removed from the scene on stretchers.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:54 pm UTC

I'm wondering if the best course of action is to teach people to fight back if being taken hostage, even if that's dangerous. Why? It changes the dynamic and hostages become worse than worthless.

Notice that we haven't had a SINGLE hijacking of an American airliner since 9/11. They used to be an annual thing. Not anymore. And that has nothing to do with the TSA. Everyone on the plane knows (or at least believes) that if someone hijacks a plane they are all going to die anyway, so might as well fight back. So no one can hijack anymore.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:05 pm UTC

There are reports in other media that two people have been killed, among them one of the hostages.

I must stress that these claims are unconfirmed and Guardian reporters are currently attempting to verify them.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby jestingrabbit » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:11 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I'm wondering if the best course of action is to teach people to fight back if being taken hostage, even if that's dangerous.


So devote more resources to something that is less likely than being killed by lightning. No, I don't think we'll be doing that.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby leady » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:11 pm UTC

nah, if someone escalated this earlier it would have been an hostage bloodbath. Also even nutters will pick "safe" targets so if general public targets become more difficult then they will move to less acceptable easier ones. For all the discussions on the horredous waste of money on wars and the Inteligence services, they do appear to have done a pretty sterling if illiberal job in the last 10 years as measured by domestic attacks.

I suspect the Australian asylum system is about to get a beating over the next few days though

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:14 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:I'm wondering if the best course of action is to teach people to fight back if being taken hostage, even if that's dangerous.


So devote more resources to something that is less likely than being killed by lightning. No, I don't think we'll be doing that.

I agree that the resource investment:return is very low, but I agree with the mindset of emphasizing training or outlooks that reduce the value of hostage taking.

Assuming, of course, data backs the notion that a difficult to hold hostage increases the likelihood of apprehending the culprits and increasing safety of other hostages/bystanders.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby leady » Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:31 pm UTC

the data won't, because in real extractions there is a reason that SWAT hogtie everyone :)

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:07 pm UTC

I'm under the impression that a difficult hostage raises the chance of those hostages dying but reduces the chance of someone trying to take hostages in the first place.

Imagine if for example, all the Africans brought over to the Americas refused to work. They would be beaten and mutilated to death, but slavery wouldn't have caught on and fewer people would've suffered as a result.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby addams » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:20 pm UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:Seems like its all over in a hail of bullets. Not clear what happened atm, but a large number of hostages have left, there has been gunfire or similiar, the exclusion zone remains in place. I guess we'll get word in a half hour or so.

eta: they're saying the siege is now over, so that's good.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby jestingrabbit » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:38 pm UTC

There are three dead. The gunman, a 34 year old man, and a 38 year old woman.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Thesh » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:49 pm UTC

My question is that if the news crew could get a picture of the hostage taker, why a sniper didn't get a clear shot.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Chen » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:53 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I'm under the impression that a difficult hostage raises the chance of those hostages dying but reduces the chance of someone trying to take hostages in the first place.

Imagine if for example, all the Africans brought over to the Americas refused to work. They would be beaten and mutilated to death, but slavery wouldn't have caught on and fewer people would've suffered as a result.


Thing is do YOU want to be that person who gets beaten and killed just so others don't get caught up in this? When if you do nothing you have a much better chance at living? Considering the odds of you getting into a hostage situation AGAIN is super low to begin with, there's a very selfish reason to not be a problem to your captors.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:54 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:My question is that if the news crew could get a picture of the hostage taker, why a sniper didn't get a clear shot.


Pictures are easier than shots. Also, probably differing angles.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby K-R » Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:58 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:My question is that if the news crew could get a picture of the hostage taker, why a sniper didn't get a clear shot.

https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/544513922557313024


You can put cameras in places you can't put people, for starters. That camera was probably stuck on a wall, or looking through a window.


EDIT:
NSW police commissioner, Andrew Scipione, says police made the decision to enter the Lindt cafe because shots were fired inside.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Thesh » Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:11 pm UTC

I guess if they were worried about explosives, they might hold off on lethal force for as long as possible.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Gopher of Pern » Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:17 pm UTC

From The Guardian:

Three people dead, four injured, 17 hostages - what we know so far

Police have confirmed three people died as the siege at Lindt Cafe in Sydney came to an end nearing its 17th hour just after 2am AEDT on Tuesday. Here is what we know so far:

Police have counted 17 hostages in total. Two hostages and the gunman died after police stormed the cafe when shots were fired just after 2am AEDT. Four people were injured in the confrontation, including a hostage who was shot in the shoulder.
About 11 people escaped during the siege. Five people escaped before 7pm AEDT on Monday and five to six people ran from the cafe in the minutes gunfire was heard from the cafe.
Police have launched an immediate investigation into the shooting and it is not yet known who fired the fatal gunshots.
Police believe the gunman was working alone. NSW police commissioner, Andrew Scipione, said the police involved saved “many lives” and acted after they heard gunshots within the cafe. He also called for people not to get carried away by speculation:

We need to actually find out what’s happened here and what’s happened inside that cafe. It’s not time to speculate or to develop theories. We are going to work through facts and we will advise you as soon as we can.

There is still an exclusion zone around Martin Place and workers in the vicinity are being asked to work from home if they can.
The gunman has been named, Man Haron Monis, who has faced court on numerous charges, including 22 counts of aggravated sexual assault and 14 counts of aggravated indecent assault, and had been bailed for allegedly being an accessory to the killing of his former wife.



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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby WilliamLehnsherr » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:45 pm UTC

It's sad two hostages died.

It's also a shame the hostage taker died. Now we can't question him.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:47 pm UTC

K-R wrote:
Thesh wrote:My question is that if the news crew could get a picture of the hostage taker, why a sniper didn't get a clear shot.

https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/544513922557313024


You can put cameras in places you can't put people, for starters. That camera was probably stuck on a wall, or looking through a window.


That and if you blow your picture, you just try again. Gunshots are somewhat less forgiving.

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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Clix » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:51 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:My question is that if the news crew could get a picture of the hostage taker, why a sniper didn't get a clear shot.


My guess would be unable to account for the deflection of the bullet when it hits the glass. I did a quick skim of this Behavior of Bullets Fired Through Glass and it seems the long and short of it is; There ain't no telling where it will end up. Not being a ballistic expert not I'm not sure how it effects high velocity/power bullets.
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Re: Sydney Siege

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:58 pm UTC

Clix wrote:
Thesh wrote:My question is that if the news crew could get a picture of the hostage taker, why a sniper didn't get a clear shot.


My guess would be unable to account for the deflection of the bullet when it hits the glass. I did a quick skim of this Behavior of Bullets Fired Through Glass and it seems the long and short of it is; There ain't no telling where it will end up. Not being a ballistic expert not I'm not sure how it effects high velocity/power bullets.


Significantly if there's an angle. Easiest solution is to aim for a corner, blow out the glass, and then fire through the hole normally. That probably would not work well here.

Source: I've been bored with a lot of bullets and a lot of glass, and then had neither of those things.


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