1599: "Water Delivery"

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1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby karhell » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:41 pm UTC

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Title: When I was a kid, I asked my parents why our houses didn't have toothpaste pipes in addition to water ones. I'm strangely pleased to see Amazon thinking the same way.

Toothpaste pipes sound pretty neat ^^
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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Whizbang » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:42 pm UTC

This is not what I was expecting when I saw the title "Water Delivery".

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby The Old Wolf » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:58 pm UTC

Scott Adams had this idea in 2002. If it is to be assumed that Munroe meant "as a kid" to be in the 80s, then his inspiration came long before the one that showed up in Dilbert.
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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby cryptoengineer » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:10 pm UTC

The Old Wolf wrote:Scott Adams had this idea in 2002. If it is to be assumed that Munroe meant "as a kid" to be in the 80s, then his inspiration came long before the one that showed up in Dilbert.


Heck, Aldous Huxley had taps for cologne, etc, in bathrooms in his 1931 masterpiece 'Brave New World' (which looks more prophetic every day).

ce

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby cryptoengineer » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:12 pm UTC

When I was a kid, mail order catalogs always noted '6 to 8 weeks for delivery'. Being able to get stuff from Amazon, etc, in a day or less is mindblowing to us older folk.

ce

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby orthogon » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:14 pm UTC

The Old Wolf wrote:Scott Adams had this idea in 2002. If it is to be assumed that Munroe meant "as a kid" to be in the 80s, then his inspiration came long before the one that showed up in Dilbert.

Well, in some places they put fluoride in the water supply, so in a way they do deliver toothpaste, except for the paste part.

One-hour delivery of bottled water? $DEITY help us.

Pseudo-edit: actually the one-hour wait is a bit like parts of the developing world where you have to make a special trip to the village water tank, or even further afield. Except you have to pay five or six orders of magnitude more for the water than you do for the stuff from the tap. What the hell is wrong with people?
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Arancaytar » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:17 pm UTC

Amazon's water delivery might win on latency, but it'll never compare to its namesake in bandwidth.
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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Flumble » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:19 pm UTC

While toothpaste pipes are probably a bad idea, handsoap or sunflower oil pipes (or olive oil if you pay a premium) aren't so bad, right? And the best idea is the addition of a not-so-clean-water pipe, that's good enough to flush the toilets, water the plants, put out a fire and fill a swimming pool.

Also, instead of ordering bottled water, start campaigns to get proper water purification. If you can't drink from the tap, you're basically not a civilised country. :roll:


cryptoengineer wrote:When I was a kid, mail order catalogs always noted '6 to 8 weeks for delivery'. Being able to get stuff from Amazon, etc, in a day or less is mindblowing to us older folk.

Us kids have our own lawns now, grampa, so get off.
I still have to wait a couple of weeks because I'm buying cheap from China, so it's shipped "whenever we find a free spot and feel like it".

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby orthogon » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:36 pm UTC

Arancaytar wrote:Amazon's water delivery might win on latency, but it'll never compare to its namesake in bandwidth.

Quite possibly it would win on taste, too. And alligator content (depending on whether this is considered a good or a bad thing).

Flumble wrote:Also, instead of ordering bottled water, start campaigns to get proper water purification. If you can't drink from the tap, you're basically not a civilised country. :roll:

I don't think that's so much the issue. As far as I know, the EU sets limits for water purity and I believe that these are more stringent than those for bottled water. Certainly somebody told me once* that the "cell count" in bottled water was higher than in tap water. The problem is that it's not socially acceptable in some cultures to drink tap water; and heaven forbid that you should serve it to your guests. My German friends and colleagues often complain that our kitchen sinks usually have separate hot and cold taps rather than a 2 degree-of-freedom mixer contraption, and I usually retort "yes, because our tap water is good enough to drink, and the separate taps prevent the safe cold water from mixing with the uncertain hot". In reality, of course, German tap water is perfectly good to drink too, but you wouldn't think so. (It turns out that Germany isn't as bad as the Benelux countries or Italy).


*Whaddya mean, "citation needed"?
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby karhell » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:45 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
Arancaytar wrote:Amazon's water delivery might win on latency, but it'll never compare to its namesake in bandwidth.

Quite possibly it would win on taste, too. And alligator content (depending on whether this is considered a good or a bad thing).

From the alligator's point of view, not ending up bottled is a very good thing indeed.
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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Fungo4 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:47 pm UTC

Not a single "Amazon River" joke?

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Whizbang » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:53 pm UTC

Fungo4 wrote:Not a single "Amazon River" joke?


I was just about to make one.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby ucim » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:53 pm UTC

cryptoengineer wrote:When I was a kid, mail order catalogs always noted '6 to 8 weeks for delivery'.
That's because the stuff wasn't manufactured yet. The 6-8 weeks was to gather up all the orders and money, decide whether or not it was worth it to make the stuff in the first place, manufacture and package it, and then get it out. AIUIA.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby orthogon » Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:56 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:
Fungo4 wrote:Not a single "Amazon River" joke?


I was just about to make one.

Not a single one, no: at least three. Look harder!
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:12 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
Arancaytar wrote:Amazon's water delivery might win on latency, but it'll never compare to its namesake in bandwidth.

Quite possibly it would win on taste, too. And alligator content (depending on whether this is considered a good or a bad thing).

Flumble wrote:Also, instead of ordering bottled water, start campaigns to get proper water purification. If you can't drink from the tap, you're basically not a civilised country. :roll:

I don't think that's so much the issue. As far as I know, the EU sets limits for water purity and I believe that these are more stringent than those for bottled water. Certainly somebody told me once* that the "cell count" in bottled water was higher than in tap water. The problem is that it's not socially acceptable in some cultures to drink tap water; and heaven forbid that you should serve it to your guests. My German friends and colleagues often complain that our kitchen sinks usually have separate hot and cold taps rather than a 2 degree-of-freedom mixer contraption, and I usually retort "yes, because our tap water is good enough to drink, and the separate taps prevent the safe cold water from mixing with the uncertain hot". In reality, of course, German tap water is perfectly good to drink too, but you wouldn't think so. (It turns out that Germany isn't as bad as the Benelux countries or Italy).


*Whaddya mean, "citation needed"?


Nowadays, most hot water in the UK is safe to drink too - the legal requirement to avoid mixing before the point of delivery dates back to the days when hot water came from a tank rather than being mains water which is heated when it's needed.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Wed Nov 04, 2015 3:18 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
Arancaytar wrote:Amazon's water delivery might win on latency, but it'll never compare to its namesake in bandwidth.

Quite possibly it would win on taste, too. And alligator content (depending on whether this is considered a good or a bad thing).

Flumble wrote:Also, instead of ordering bottled water, start campaigns to get proper water purification. If you can't drink from the tap, you're basically not a civilised country. :roll:

I don't think that's so much the issue. As far as I know, the EU sets limits for water purity and I believe that these are more stringent than those for bottled water. Certainly somebody told me once* that the "cell count" in bottled water was higher than in tap water. The problem is that it's not socially acceptable in some cultures to drink tap water; and heaven forbid that you should serve it to your guests. My German friends and colleagues often complain that our kitchen sinks usually have separate hot and cold taps rather than a 2 degree-of-freedom mixer contraption, and I usually retort "yes, because our tap water is good enough to drink, and the separate taps prevent the safe cold water from mixing with the uncertain hot". In reality, of course, German tap water is perfectly good to drink too, but you wouldn't think so. (It turns out that Germany isn't as bad as the Benelux countries or Italy).


*Whaddya mean, "citation needed"?

In the Netherlands (and I presume Germany too) the water heaters must be rated for drinking water. They also must be set at a temperature of over 60°C to prevent legionella forming (and it kills lots of other bacteria too).
Here in the Netherlands tap water needs to comply to the "Drinkwaterbesluit"(Gtranslate of the actual appendix describing the limits), a very strict set of guidelines including pH, various chemical levels (including chlorine levels) and colony forming unit count (this is tested both in sample points and in houses). It does, with plenty of room to spare.
Bottled natural mineral water has to comply to the "Warenwet" which is essentially the same law Coca Cola has to comply to. It is not as strict by far.
In the end there are types of bottled water that actually have far more taste than the tap water. Bar-le-duc is a good example of a bottled water with a chlorine level several times over the limits for tap water.
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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Heimhenge » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:07 pm UTC

cryptoengineer wrote:When I was a kid, mail order catalogs always noted '6 to 8 weeks for delivery'. Being able to get stuff from Amazon, etc, in a day or less is mindblowing to us older folk.

ce


Amazon is planning to get that down to 30 minutes using drones. See: http://www.amazon.com/b?node=8037720011

They're still working out a lot of the details, and haven't even chosen the drone configuration yet, but there's gotta be some weight limits. Order a mountain lion and it'll probably be delivered the old way.

My questions ...

1. How do they ring the doorbell? (I suppose a good pilot could do that).
2. How would they deliver to an apartment?
3. What prevents a nefarious individual from shooting down a drone and stealing the merchandise?

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Whizbang » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:10 pm UTC

Heimhenge wrote:My questions ...

1. How do they ring the doorbell? (I suppose a good pilot could do that).
2. How would they deliver to an apartment?
3. What prevents a nefarious individual from shooting down a drone and stealing the merchandise?


1. They don't.
2. They don't. (at best they'd deliver it to the front door)
3. Nothing except what prevents those same individuals from casually destroying/stealing other property.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby cellocgw » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:17 pm UTC

Hah! Mathematics fail!

Let's interpret his sequence as " total delivery of X liters/hour , delivered in bottles whose capacity decreases as the bottle delivery rate increases..."
No matter how many bottles you supply, you'll never have continuous flow. Just like that famous high-school geometry (?) problem about drawing a stair-step path from top-left to bottom-right corners of a square. No matter how small the steps, the path length remains the same (2*edge) and never equals the diagonsal (sqrt(2)*edge).

Either that or the water pipe delivers water with square-wave pulses :-)
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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Draco18s » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:26 pm UTC

Now that Amazon has fast delivery of things, any call for a return service on the packing materials?

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby YellowYeti » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:32 pm UTC

Neil_Boekend wrote:In the Netherlands (and I presume Germany too) the water heaters must be rated for drinking water. They also must be set at a temperature of over 60°C to prevent legionella forming (and it kills lots of other bacteria too).
Here in the Netherlands tap water needs to comply to the "Drinkwaterbesluit"(Gtranslate of the actual appendix describing the limits), a very strict set of guidelines including pH, various chemical levels (including chlorine levels) and colony forming unit count (this is tested both in sample points and in houses). It does, with plenty of room to spare.
Bottled natural mineral water has to comply to the "Warenwet" which is essentially the same law Coca Cola has to comply to. It is not as strict by far.
In the end there are types of bottled water that actually have far more taste than the tap water. Bar-le-duc is a good example of a bottled water with a chlorine level several times over the limits for tap water.


Certainly some bottled water has far more taste than tap water - especially 'Bottled Spunk"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasani#United_Kingdom

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Whizbang » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:40 pm UTC

YellowYeti wrote:Certainly some bottled water has far more taste than tap water - especially 'Bottled Spunk"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasani#United_Kingdom


Spunk means semen where I come from too (North-Eastern USA), so I am not sure what the people behind the campaign were thinking.

There was also a stink over here a few years ago (at least in the circles I am part of) when it became common knowledge that Coca-Cola added minerals/salt to the water, though, as typical for America, the attention span was short.

I've never heard it called Bottled Spunk, though.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby biohazard » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:43 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
orthogon wrote:
Arancaytar wrote:Amazon's water delivery might win on latency, but it'll never compare to its namesake in bandwidth.

Quite possibly it would win on taste, too. And alligator content (depending on whether this is considered a good or a bad thing).

Flumble wrote:Also, instead of ordering bottled water, start campaigns to get proper water purification. If you can't drink from the tap, you're basically not a civilised country. :roll:

I don't think that's so much the issue. As far as I know, the EU sets limits for water purity and I believe that these are more stringent than those for bottled water. Certainly somebody told me once* that the "cell count" in bottled water was higher than in tap water. The problem is that it's not socially acceptable in some cultures to drink tap water; and heaven forbid that you should serve it to your guests. My German friends and colleagues often complain that our kitchen sinks usually have separate hot and cold taps rather than a 2 degree-of-freedom mixer contraption, and I usually retort "yes, because our tap water is good enough to drink, and the separate taps prevent the safe cold water from mixing with the uncertain hot". In reality, of course, German tap water is perfectly good to drink too, but you wouldn't think so. (It turns out that Germany isn't as bad as the Benelux countries or Italy).


*Whaddya mean, "citation needed"?


Nowadays, most hot water in the UK is safe to drink too - the legal requirement to avoid mixing before the point of delivery dates back to the days when hot water came from a tank rather than being mains water which is heated when it's needed.


You all have expensive on demand water heaters? I fail to the see the issue with the tank setup the water originates from the same source and I wouldn't think a big ol tank full of very hot water would be a good environment for shit to grow. I drink hot water from the tap all the time. The only concern I've heard voiced before is that you can get bits of scale in the water from the tank.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:57 pm UTC

Yeah, in the US, the norm is to have a tank that's gradually heated and refills, obviously itself from the mains.

Whizbang wrote:Spunk means semen where I come from too (North-Eastern USA), so I am not sure what the people behind the campaign were thinking.

I'm not sure how universal that is. Despite the many terms for semen I'm familiar with, that's not one I've encountered. And "spunk" is definitely used in quite a lot of contexts otherwise.
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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby J%r » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:09 pm UTC

cryptoengineer wrote:Heck, Aldous Huxley had taps for cologne, etc, in bathrooms in his 1931 masterpiece 'Brave New World' (which looks more prophetic every day).


I suppose a beer pipeline might have a lot of interest. Oh wait, they already have that. I also know of some places having hot water pipelines for heating homes, with the water coming directly from the nuclear power plant.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby tomandlu » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:10 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:Yeah, in the US, the norm is to have a tank that's gradually heated and refills, obviously itself from the mains.

Whizbang wrote:Spunk means semen where I come from too (North-Eastern USA), so I am not sure what the people behind the campaign were thinking.

I'm not sure how universal that is. Despite the many terms for semen I'm familiar with, that's not one I've encountered. And "spunk" is definitely used in quite a lot of contexts otherwise.


There's a bit in Martin Amis's "Money" (iirc) where the Brits have to explain to an American actor why he'll have to change his name to something other than "Spunk" if he wants to be taken seriously in the UK, so I've always assumed that it only means "vim and vigour" in the US.
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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby biohazard » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:13 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:Yeah, in the US, the norm is to have a tank that's gradually heated and refills, obviously itself from the mains.

Whizbang wrote:Spunk means semen where I come from too (North-Eastern USA), so I am not sure what the people behind the campaign were thinking.

I'm not sure how universal that is. Despite the many terms for semen I'm familiar with, that's not one I've encountered. And "spunk" is definitely used in quite a lot of contexts otherwise.


I've heard it used that way plenty of times I can see what they were going for but damn thats just hilarious. Bottle of spunk *giggles*.

Was gonna say I'm from oklahoma so its clearly not just the north eastern us where its a thing but I'm not sure I have heard anyone use the word here irl instead of someone on the internet.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby cryptoengineer » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:15 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:
Heimhenge wrote:My questions ...

1. How do they ring the doorbell? (I suppose a good pilot could do that).
2. How would they deliver to an apartment?
3. What prevents a nefarious individual from shooting down a drone and stealing the merchandise?


1. They don't.
2. They don't. (at best they'd deliver it to the front door)
3. Nothing except what prevents those same individuals from casually destroying/stealing other property.


I'm highly skeptical on this.

The FAA currently forbids commercial use, with a very few exceptions (film companies). It also requires the operator to be in line-of-sight
with the drone at all times, and that it fly below 400 ft AGL, unless the operator is a licensed pilot, and the UAV follows the same rules as
general aviation planes. So, no 'plugin the address and send it off'; you have to pay a licensed pilot to be hands-on at all times. Not cheap.

The economics are questionable. The destination has to be within drone range of a launch point. The drone has to be an (n)-copter; an
airplane style machine needs too much clear space to land and take off. That severely limits the range, though I've seen claims of
up to 20 km (without load). In practice, it's a 5 km or less.

How many people live within 5 km of an Amazon warehouse? How many of those have yard suitable for a drone to land?

I could be wrong, but I see this as simple grandstanding by Amazon. It's not going to happen for a long time.

ce

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby biohazard » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:19 pm UTC

cryptoengineer wrote:
Whizbang wrote:
Heimhenge wrote:My questions ...

1. How do they ring the doorbell? (I suppose a good pilot could do that).
2. How would they deliver to an apartment?
3. What prevents a nefarious individual from shooting down a drone and stealing the merchandise?


1. They don't.
2. They don't. (at best they'd deliver it to the front door)
3. Nothing except what prevents those same individuals from casually destroying/stealing other property.


I'm highly skeptical on this.

The FAA currently forbids commercial use, with a very few exceptions (film companies). It also requires the operator to be in line-of-sight
with the drone at all times, and that it fly below 400 ft AGL, unless the operator is a licensed pilot, and the UAV follows the same rules as
general aviation planes. So, no 'plugin the address and send it off'; you have to pay a licensed pilot to be hands-on at all times. Not cheap.

The economics are questionable. The destination has to be within drone range of a launch point. The drone has to be an (n)-copter; an
airplane style machine needs too much clear space to land and take off. That severely limits the range, though I've seen claims of
up to 20 km (without load). In practice, it's a 5 km or less.

How many people live within 5 km of an Amazon warehouse? How many of those have yard suitable for a drone to land?

I could be wrong, but I see this as simple grandstanding by Amazon. It's not going to happen for a long time.

ce


You gotta start somewhere personally I think drone based delivery makes a lot more send for stuff like food then random crap off amazon.

:edit: to be clear I mean shit like pizza and other forms of takeout not groceries

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Whizbang » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:22 pm UTC

Personally I think self-driving cars/trucks makes more sense for delivery than drones. Though this would also require curb-side receptacles and mechanical arms on the car.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby biohazard » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:40 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:Personally I think self-driving cars/trucks makes more sense for delivery than drones. Though this would also require curb-side receptacles and mechanical arms on the car.


Hum curb side receptacles? like some kind of box? We could call it a mail box! :p

Seems like 6 of one half a dozen of the other when it comes to problems to be overcome. For the delivery of hot food some kind of roughly person sized robot that can travel on side walks might make sense for local deliveries in urban areas. But either way you just have the person who ordered come out and meet the thing at the curb/sidewalk.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby orthogon » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:44 pm UTC

biohazard wrote:You all have expensive on demand water heaters? I fail to the see the issue with the tank setup the water originates from the same source and I wouldn't think a big ol tank full of very hot water would be a good environment for shit to grow. I drink hot water from the tap all the time. The only concern I've heard voiced before is that you can get bits of scale in the water from the tank.

Yes, in recent years the trend has been for "combi-boilers" which provide instant hot water and also heat the central heating circuit. Before that, we used to have hot water tanks (cylinders) fed from a header tank in the loft (roof space) and heated by another circuit from the boiler. The hygiene problem was more with this header tank, which was open to the air (normally with some kind of lid, but not sealed) and maintained at a fixed level using a ball valve fed from the mains. It wasn't impossible for rats and other unspeakables to gain access to the header tank. The header tank also used to feed all the cold taps, toilets etc., except for one tap, usually in the kitchen, which came straight from the mains and provided drinking water.

There's now a new type of setup, with a mains-pressure hot water cylinder; that avoids the problem of the header tank. Still, combi boilers are likely to remain popular especially for smaller houses and flats (=apartments) because the hot water cylinder takes up real estate, and it's nice to have unlimited hot water when you need it; conversely cylinders are good for bigger houses because you can have a greater flow rate so e.g. run two showers at the same time. As for efficiency, I'm not sure how it works out, but you have to take into account the heat lost by the hot water whilst it's sitting in the cylinder not being used. Did you mean "expensive to run" or "expensive to buy"? The latter is dominated by the £100+ per hour that you have to pay some joker to fit it.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby SuicideJunkie » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:56 pm UTC

cryptoengineer wrote:I'm highly skeptical on this.

The FAA currently forbids commercial use, with a very few exceptions (film companies). It also requires the operator to be in line-of-sight
with the drone at all times, and that it fly below 400 ft AGL, unless the operator is a licensed pilot, and the UAV follows the same rules as
general aviation planes. So, no 'plugin the address and send it off'; you have to pay a licensed pilot to be hands-on at all times. Not cheap.

The economics are questionable. The destination has to be within drone range of a launch point. The drone has to be an (n)-copter; an
airplane style machine needs too much clear space to land and take off. That severely limits the range, though I've seen claims of
up to 20 km (without load). In practice, it's a 5 km or less.

How many people live within 5 km of an Amazon warehouse? How many of those have yard suitable for a drone to land?

I could be wrong, but I see this as simple grandstanding by Amazon. It's not going to happen for a long time.

ce
Why not just launch the drones from the delivery truck? Then you only need to be within 5km of the road. The drone can take off ahead, and then meet up with the truck later after dropping off the package to recharge and reload.

You could also put a speaker or walkie-talkie system on the drone if you want to talk to people too.

Instead of one guy taking all day stopping and parking repeatedly, you have a driver and a flyer, and cruise at full speed through your route to get everything done faster. And you wouldn't have to go down tiny side streets or find the entrance to isolated residential areas, just stay on the main road and fly over a house instead of driving the long way around.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby ThemePark » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:02 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:
YellowYeti wrote:Certainly some bottled water has far more taste than tap water - especially 'Bottled Spunk"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasani#United_Kingdom


Spunk means semen where I come from too (North-Eastern USA), so I am not sure what the people behind the campaign were thinking.

There was also a stink over here a few years ago (at least in the circles I am part of) when it became common knowledge that Coca-Cola added minerals/salt to the water, though, as typical for America, the attention span was short.

I've never heard it called Bottled Spunk, though.

Ahem.

Image
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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby biohazard » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:04 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
biohazard wrote:You all have expensive on demand water heaters? I fail to the see the issue with the tank setup the water originates from the same source and I wouldn't think a big ol tank full of very hot water would be a good environment for shit to grow. I drink hot water from the tap all the time. The only concern I've heard voiced before is that you can get bits of scale in the water from the tank.

Yes, in recent years the trend has been for "combi-boilers" which provide instant hot water and also heat the central heating circuit. Before that, we used to have hot water tanks (cylinders) fed from a header tank in the loft (roof space) and heated by another circuit from the boiler. The hygiene problem was more with this header tank, which was open to the air (normally with some kind of lid, but not sealed) and maintained at a fixed level using a ball valve fed from the mains. It wasn't impossible for rats and other unspeakables to gain access to the header tank. The header tank also used to feed all the cold taps, toilets etc., except for one tap, usually in the kitchen, which came straight from the mains and provided drinking water.

There's now a new type of setup, with a mains-pressure hot water cylinder; that avoids the problem of the header tank. Still, combi boilers are likely to remain popular especially for smaller houses and flats (=apartments) because the hot water cylinder takes up real estate, and it's nice to have unlimited hot water when you need it; conversely cylinders are good for bigger houses because you can have a greater flow rate so e.g. run two showers at the same time. As for efficiency, I'm not sure how it works out, but you have to take into account the heat lost by the hot water whilst it's sitting in the cylinder not being used. Did you mean "expensive to run" or "expensive to buy"? The latter is dominated by the £100+ per hour that you have to pay some joker to fit it.


I mean expensive to buy and expensive to install the sort of tankless unit you would have installed generally costs 2 to 3 times what a tanked gas unit costs. The electric units I have seen generally cost even less then a tank unit but ether don't put out much hot water or use crazy amounts of current. Which comes to the other expense of having one retrofitted they require a bigger gas line then then a tanked unit you might be fine if your heater is next to the furnace but with some houses they require more gas then the line from the main can provide and thats crazy expensive to have improved. I looked at the pay back period of a good tanked vs a good tankless unit a few years back and its on the order of 11 to 14 years and thats provided your install costs are fairly low. Yeah the infinite hot water thing is nice but personally I would rather have hot water when the power goes out. My gas tanked units are purely mechanical beasts they don't require anything other then gas and that there pilot light be lit to heat water where as even a gas tankless requires electricity to run the wigits that detect the demand for hotwater when you turn on the tap.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Copper Bezel » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:13 pm UTC

Inertia, age and design of existing buildings before a given amenity became standard, expectations after it did, scale of production of alternatives.
So much depends upon a red wheel barrow (>= XXII) but it is not going to be installed.

she / her / her

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Whizbang » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:16 pm UTC

ThemePark wrote:Ahem.

Spoiler:
Image


I don't know what that is.

A Google search implies that is a Danish candy of some sort.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby ThemePark » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:18 pm UTC

Whizbang wrote:
ThemePark wrote:Ahem.

Spoiler:
Image


I don't know what that is.

A Google search implies that is a Danish candy of some sort.

You would be correct. Danish salt licorice. And the word is also "invented" by Pippi Longstocking, as it turns out.
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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby orthogon » Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:33 pm UTC

biohazard wrote:I mean expensive to buy and expensive to install the sort of tankless unit you would have installed generally costs 2 to 3 times what a tanked gas unit costs. The electric units I have seen generally cost even less then a tank unit but ether don't put out much hot water or use crazy amounts of current. Which comes to the other expense of having one retrofitted they require a bigger gas line then then a tanked unit you might be fine if your heater is next to the furnace but with some houses they require more gas then the line from the main can provide and thats crazy expensive to have improved. I looked at the pay back period of a good tanked vs a good tankless unit a few years back and its on the order of 11 to 14 years and thats provided your install costs are fairly low. Yeah the infinite hot water thing is nice but personally I would rather have hot water when the power goes out. My gas tanked units are purely mechanical beasts they don't require anything other then gas and that there pilot light be lit to heat water where as even a gas tankless requires electricity to run the wigits that detect the demand for hotwater when you turn on the tap.

Interesting that there's the difference, but I guess the factors that CB lists are probably some of the reasons. Perhaps our gas mains have higher pressure or wider pipes, since I've never heard of the gas supply being the limiting factor.

The "hot water when the power goes out" thing is seriously annoying, since the electric supply is only needed to for some low-power electronics, a couple of solenoids and a fan; for the central heating the pump needs to run too. Also the electronics have been getting increasingly complicated, with many possible failure modes. In the old days it would just have been a few relays, so would have been more reliable and easier to diagnose. Still, even today's boilers will probably be looked back on as a golden age. In a couple of years' time boilers will stop working because their version of QuickTime is out of date.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1599: "Water Delivery"

Postby Heimhenge » Wed Nov 04, 2015 7:15 pm UTC

cryptoengineer wrote:
Whizbang wrote:
Heimhenge wrote:My questions ...

1. How do they ring the doorbell? (I suppose a good pilot could do that).
2. How would they deliver to an apartment?
3. What prevents a nefarious individual from shooting down a drone and stealing the merchandise?


1. They don't.
2. They don't. (at best they'd deliver it to the front door)
3. Nothing except what prevents those same individuals from casually destroying/stealing other property.


I'm highly skeptical on this.

The FAA currently forbids commercial use, with a very few exceptions (film companies). It also requires the operator to be in line-of-sight
with the drone at all times, and that it fly below 400 ft AGL, unless the operator is a licensed pilot, and the UAV follows the same rules as
general aviation planes. So, no 'plugin the address and send it off'; you have to pay a licensed pilot to be hands-on at all times. Not cheap.


ce


What the FAA currently forbids/allows with drones is certain to change. They admit the regulations for drones are still "a work in progress" since there's so much to consider ... safety, privacy, terrorist use, no fly zones, etc. But they'd better come up with something comprehensive soon, given the explosion of the drone market. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Amazon is lobbying the FAA on the commercial use aspect.


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