2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - Game Over

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Sabrar
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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:21 pm UTC

@Misnomer: Follow-up question: emlightened posted 4 times, of which the first 2 was introductory random stuff. Her only real content was placing a FoS on you (but stating that she feels you're third party) after declining to 'stay on the train'. Why is she at the bottom of your list, if your method places people with little content higher?

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby crucialityfactor » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:33 pm UTC

Misnomer wrote:You're asking me to rank myself based off of my own gut feeling? :shock: Well, based on my method I'd clearly come up at the very top of the townie side of the list - I'm not going to consider any other player more likely to be town when I know for certain that I am myself.

If you're asking me how townie I feel I've come across as so far this game, then I'd say leaning town with a fair chance of being third party. My opening behaviour's been bold, but I've not been seeking to push a particular course of action or get myself generally recognised as a townie, which doesn't map on to usual 'scum leading town' strategy. At the same time, it is unusual and was quite a swift jump away from random voting.


...but of course, that's all become wine by the very fact I've posted it. :roll: Out of curiosity cf, what sort of answer were you expecting from me?


I was looking more for your second answer. I would wonder how you would place yourself based on that perception though. Townie with hints of 3rd party certainly wouldn't fall on the top of your list right?

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Misnomer » Fri Dec 18, 2015 8:44 pm UTC

@Sabrar: because her FOS post on me struck me rather badly, particularly the way in which she characterised my behaviour as asking questions of people's roles (when I did no such thing - as indeed, had already been flagged up earlier). The EBWOP then further suggests an over-concern to justify her own actions, further raising my suspicions.

@cf: it's difficult to say, as my list was deliberately not a leaning town/leaning scum etc. list, but rather more a list of people in ascending order by how much they're currently alarming me. As such, it wouldn't make sense for me to try and insert myself in that list.
moody7277 wrote:The role of SDK in this game will be played by Misnomer. [/soapopera]

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:00 pm UTC

@Misnomer: thank you for the answers. I messed up roles vs alignments before so I don't find it scummy as you do but now I understand better where you're coming from. One final question if I may: your stance on jimbobmacdoodle seemed pretty strong. Did you change your mind about him (and if yes, why) or are you just finding other people more alarming?

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:24 pm UTC

EBWOP: sorry, just thought of something else: how is 'people who alarm me' different in your mind from the usual town-to-scum list and why are you voting on it if it's not actual scum-list?

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby moody7277 » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:09 pm UTC

Misnomer wrote:moody
Naughty
...
Unvote
Vote: moody


This is what an overreaction looks like to me. I've made one comment about cf on an issue I found weird. All I've done so far is flag it as interesting; upon further review I may even consider cf town. Voting on such a response is a bit overkill. I think it would be similar if the comment were made "mpolo laghued it off, therefore he and cf must be buddies. vote mpolo". More detailed reads to come soonish.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Madge » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:21 pm UTC

Yadda yadda I'm sick yadda yadda sitting down with a nice cup of tea yadda yadda

OK that out of the way, let's do this!

This is a random list of players and my observations throughout the game so far.

Misnomer is the first person to actually start trying to get discussion going, I'm really liking that because it's right at the beginning during the RVS and it's something that's different to the questions I've seen posted around before. Aggressively starts going against CF. He's getting a lot of play out of explaining the weird alignments he put in his list though which is interesting since it's not actually useful content. That said I agree that putting me at the very top of the townie list is really weird because of my lack of content. FoS

CF's response to the list is very politician-y though, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing as it's probably what I'd write.

Freezeblade's attack on misnomer is super weak and abrupt* but it's D1 and I hate D1 just as much as he does so who am I to judge.

Mpolo's first(?) post is good. I like it. But the probability thing is really weird. All this mafia alignment assignment is random and you expect clumping which is proof FB is scum this game too so FoS

Snark putting everyone into groups is weird but it's kind of cool, because by chance one of those groups will have more scum than another, so it's a good way to narrow people down. I think I'm actually a fan, tbh. At the very least it's interesting stuff for d1.

FWIW and I know I'm a few pages late but this mod's bastard child role sounds really impossible to win as. How the hell do you get the mod to acknowledge you as your kid??? DOesn't that just mean that your win is in the mod's hands?????

On rolespec I went under the assumption that I wanted to submit a role I would enjoy having, since last secret santa I submitted a role that was really lame and I wouldn't have enjoyed having, just that I thought was funny. So I am projecting that onto everyone else and assuming we have a lot of fun or interesting roles. An insane cop who doesn't know they're insane is not a fun role; a cop who knows they've got questionable sanity is a fun role.

* speaking of weak and abrupt (tee-hee) i'm going to stop this post here at the bottom of p2 because I need to lie down again
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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby emlightened » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:29 pm UTC

mpolo wrote:Which leaves me with the lurker as most scummy:

Vote: emlightened

To encourage more active participation.


Sure.

Misnomer wrote:Going by past secret santa games, I'd expect practically everything to fall into the 'a role one of the players in this game completely made up' category - the nature of the role submission instructions pretty much encouraged it.

Misnomer, at the start, was trying to push for what people (it was mainly SirGabriel who answered) thought of how the roles would play out, but he later said that [above quote], which struck me as quite odd, and was large part in my FoS on him.

On reflection, it seems sensible to try to prompt discussion about potential roles, but the behavior between Misnomer and SirGabriel is odd. I would suggest that they're teaming, except that it seems unlikely that Suzaku would allow roles that require multiple players of that role. SirGabriel's only posts so far have been about the roles etc., and haven't included anything to do with what he thinks of other players.

Misnomer wrote:@Sabrar: because her FOS post on me struck me rather badly, particularly the way in which she characterised my behaviour as asking questions of people's roles (when I did no such thing - as indeed, had already been flagged up earlier). The EBWOP then further suggests an over-concern to justify her own actions, further raising my suspicions.

To the first part of that quote, I admit that I missed it. To the second part of it... I think I might be doing it now? I was trying to make it clear why I chose to do what I did (I've not seen anyone unvote someone than FoS them before), but probably went a bit overboard.

Anyway, thoughts on some others of the more active/interesting posters:
crucialityfactor seems pretty townie to me, due to the pure abundance of helpful posts.
jimbobmacdoodle I'm leaning towards scummy on, as he's only posted two comments on Misnomer's initial votes (and an EBWOP) and a declaration over a page later that he's leaving for the weekend.
mpolo either screwed up on averages (on page 2) or was trying to lead us away from jimbobmacdoodle being scum. Other then that, seems somewhat townie.
Sabrar hasn't done much that's caught my attention, but seems to be asking a lot more questions than giving information. Leaning towards scum, but could be newbie behavior.

Ninja: Madge; will look at her post later.

"Therefore it is in the interests not only of public safety but also public sanity if the buttered toast on cats idea is scrapped, to be replaced by a monorail powered by cats smeared with chicken tikka masala floating above a rail made from white shag pile carpet."

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:43 pm UTC

@emlightened: when people post townie-to-scum lists based solely on their gut-feelings then you can be sure I will ask them many questions as that is an easy way to hide true intent. Otherwise I don't think I can offer too much on D1 with unknown role/alignment setup information, however I did participate in one of the Q&A-s in case you missed it.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Misnomer » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:48 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:@Misnomer: thank you for the answers. I messed up roles vs alignments before so I don't find it scummy as you do but now I understand better where you're coming from. One final question if I may: your stance on jimbobmacdoodle seemed pretty strong. Did you change your mind about him (and if yes, why) or are you just finding other people more alarming?
Mostly the latter, though I admit the strong reaction against my initial suspicions has led me to consider whether my scumdar's hyperactive (and indeed the results of my gut feelings suggest this would be the case).

Sabrar wrote:EBWOP: sorry, just thought of something else: how is 'people who alarm me' different in your mind from the usual town-to-scum list and why are you voting on it if it's not actual scum-list?
Because I'm not measuring towniness, merely the degree of scummyness. Top of my list could mean a strong neutral read or a strong town read (or indeed a strong third party read) - but as I've not looked into other the elements yet (primarily due to a lack of posts available to make a judgement from). I'm voting on it because what else is there to vote on day1? In the absence of a strong scum slip or some of day cop, you're always better going with your instincts I say.

@emlightened: the post you're quoting me about was in direct response to SirGabriel's post asking about roles - I don't see how it can remotely be construed as trying to invite role revelations. Indeed if anything I was questioning the wisdom of the likelihood exercise he proposed.
moody7277 wrote:The role of SDK in this game will be played by Misnomer. [/soapopera]

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby emlightened » Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:56 pm UTC

Ah. I was getting what you were asking about roles, and what you originally asked about alignments, mixed up (due to the number of alignments that could be considered roles (SK, jester, lovers etc.)).

In that case, I think I see the point you made back there. Sorry about that.

"Therefore it is in the interests not only of public safety but also public sanity if the buttered toast on cats idea is scrapped, to be replaced by a monorail powered by cats smeared with chicken tikka masala floating above a rail made from white shag pile carpet."

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:33 pm UTC

Misnomer wrote:I'm voting on it because what else is there to vote on day1? In the absence of a strong scum slip or some of day cop, you're always better going with your instincts I say.

My understanding was based on how you phrased your earlier comment here, I thought that it was distinct from a scum-list and that's why I asked for an explanation. As far as I can see our approach to voting is a bit different, which is why your list pinged me. To be honest I find frequent voting/unvoting scummy behaviour, as you yourself stated Town is more likely to give definitive opinions and not being wishy-washy (I know I'm paraphrasing a bit here). Consequently I'm cautious with dishing out FoS and votes on D1 and prefer to make a complete analysis only towards the end of the day when more information is available. Hence my insistent badgering. :)

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby moody7277 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:51 am UTC

cf- reaction to SirG's oredering of roles, WAG was werewolf. put off by Misnomer's reaction to jimbob vs SirG's responses. some analysis of the important issues so far. mod interaction which led to comment that produced my reaction. put into context with the rest of his light-hearted mod interaction, this definitely looks innocuous. then back to interest in Misnomer. overall looks like solid scum hunting. townie

DJ- no data yet

emlightened- random votes Misnomer, statement of experience, switches to serious FoS, some analysis of Misnomer with slight reads on others. neutral to slightly townie

freezeblade- random vote Snark, role spec, votes Misnomer, some more detailed rolespec, agreeing with cf on hating D1. surprisingly, I think he's town.

jimbob- random vote cf, reaction to Misnomer's list and SirG's response that looked fairly safe, unvotes and explains outside issues. neutral.

Lawr- short reads post, positive on Snark, neg on cf, neutral on mpolo and fb. nervously neutral.

Madge- meta post, curious about Misnomer's vote popularity, health issues, then a bit of a reads post. if this were fb's set of posts, I'd scream scum and vote immediately, but I'm not sure if the same meta applies to Madge. nervously neutral.

Minestrone- vote against fb for voting Misonmer, also suspicious of Sabrar. unimpressed with the cf/me issue. slightly town.

Misnomer- OMGUS random votes emlightened. Originates role sorting questions to guage reactions. bases a vote on jimbob from that. further interaction with SirG that he seems satisfied with. some explanation as to what he was looking for. player ranking that puts jimbob middle just below SirG, me at bottom based off the cf interaction. kind of a huh reaction when cf asks where he'd put himself on the list, which I kind of agree with since I've gotten used to people not puting themselves on these lists. some interaction with Sabrar that doesn't seem to me to reflect his suspicion of Sabrar. overall, I want to put him as somewhat townie, but my comparison of him to SDK makes me suspicious of that, then also him voting for me makes me wonder if my suspicion is OMGUS, so :?

mpolo- some setup spec, keeping an eye on jimbob, some more role spec, suggests lurker lynch, followed by short reads post with a vote on emlightened. Light poke on the cf joke thing. Posting volume is actually a bit lighter than I would expect (as opposed to what someone else said about it), but I don't know quite what to make of that. neutral.

Sabrar- holdover vote on jimbob that was retracted after his reaction to Misnomer. discussion of gambler's fallacy with mpolo and other topics. role likelihood list. one post discussing something he found suspicious about SirG. comes down on the joke side of the cf issue. several reaction posts. lack of active posts seems a little suspicious, so slightly scummy.

SirG- random votes Minestrone. ordered list of alignment likelihoods looks pretty standard, cult being below jester and lovers given recent game history is the only thing that stands out to me. response on the werewolf vs mafia thing. puts up his own list on roles to order, then replies about the list and his previous answer. unvotes. being the second to do something similar to Misnomer's list is a point against him to me (Hey look, I'm being a helpful townie too). neutral to slightly scummy.

Snark- posts what looks like a meta reads list, votes Misnomer, couple of more meta posts. I'm not sure if he's posting usually or not. townie provisionally until more data.

Votables right now: Lawr, Madge, SirG, Sabrar, DJ, maybe Misnomer. Considering I'm on Lawr right now, I'm content in that respect.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:44 am UTC

moody7277 wrote:Sabrar- ... lack of active posts seems a little suspicious, so slightly scummy.

Look at the pot calling the kettle black. You've posted a lot of fluff so far plus an overreacted FoS based on a joke and some justifications for it. That's not a way to generate meaningful discussion. Please tell me what definition of 'active content' you're using here.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby moody7277 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:24 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
moody7277 wrote:Sabrar- ... lack of active posts seems a little suspicious, so slightly scummy.

Look at the pot calling the kettle black. You've posted a lot of fluff so far plus an overreacted FoS based on a joke and some justifications for it. That's not a way to generate meaningful discussion. Please tell me what definition of 'active content' you're using here.


When reading through your posts, I came across a string that were all @someone, @someoneelse. Original content is more thoughtful than just reacting to events, and thus doesn't fall under active lurking.
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:48 pm UTC

So according to you analyzing other people's posts and trying to generate discussion by asking them questions is the same as active lurking? Good to know...

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:57 pm UTC

I've got a few minutes at lunch to post, so I've started a readthrough of player by player. I'll post what I've got once I run out of time, so it'll be incomplete.

Crucialityfactor: solid townie feeling starting off, with some reasonable points, especially in his response to Misnomer's original reactions to mine and SirG's responses. I don't have a problem with his response to the mod, thinking about it, but I'm not sure I like his response to Moody's FoS. Conclusion, slightly townie, with a hint of third party maybe.

Emlightened: not much content so far. His FoS of Misnomer seems ok to me. One real analysis post later, which seems ok, although I obviously don't like him seeing me as scummy. Overall, seems quite like some of my early posting style in my early games, in which I was scum, but with reasons to scum hunt as well. More likely newbie vibe so far. Neutral for now.

Freezeblade: his posts read different to my previous games with him, in that he is actually willing to discuss and analyse more. What he's said seems good, but I do wonder if the different behaviour indicates a different alignment or power. Town-leaning neutral.

Time's up. More when I next get a chance.
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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby mpolo » Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:12 pm UTC

I don't have time for a real post, but emlightened came back to play, so I should

Unvote: emlightened

as the major point against her is gone. (I haven't studied her post in detail, though.)
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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:42 am UTC

Ok, looks like new content slowed down over the weekend, so this is as good as time as any for doing re-reads and player analysis (although in most cases there's not a lot to go on). In alphabetical order:

crucialityfactor: very active, gets involved early in alignment speculations and makes some reads that seem hasty to me. I think that his joke with the mod is harmless, however I feel that he overreacts a bit with this post and tries too hard to accuse moody7277. I still don't agree with him that roles with post-restrictions are a possibility, mainly because it would make the recipient obvious to the player who submitted it which I think goes against the spirit of the game.
Overall I disagree with some of his analysis, however these are mostly minor stuff or fluff-related so I have no scum-read on him. However I would like if you could expand upon the following quote a bit further:
crucialityfactor wrote:I see your game moody. I've seen it many times.


Djehutynakht (patzer): Only 1 post so far, after which she requested replacement, who unfortunately did not post yet anything. That one post pings me however, it seems like she's defending jimbobmacdoodle too hard and arrives very fast to a conclusion on Misnomer. Because of this it would be fine with me if we lynched the lurker, obviously it would be even better if Djehutynakht would start contributing.

emlightened: Her main participation is centered around Misnomer's Q&A and she later admits that she mixed up roles and alignments which could make her earlier FoS genuine. She's the first to find me scummy for mainly asking questions and not posting something original, which she doesn't do either. I still don't understand how trying to generate discussion by questioning other players' reads is suspicious, but I'll just put that down to a different meta environment than I'm used to. Neutral for now.

freezeblade: Very early vote because of just one ping. As this is like the third time in 4 players that people seem extremely hasty to me, it's time to consider the possibility that I've been doing it wrong so far and I have to ask: is this the normal meta here? Why are people not waiting on D1 for more content to have better reads? Why is it so important to vote at the beginning of the day?
Anyway back to freezeblade: he states that there would be a lot of 3rd parties but does not explain why. His role ordering in response to SirGabriel has a lot of correlation to mine, but I don't think that's too indicative of his alignment. Still, townie points for him on that. Otherwise he expresses his dislike of D1 multiple times which I can understand. Neutral, leaning a bit town.

jimbobmacdoodle: his reasoning here seems faulty to me, he's saying that SirGabriel put 'Other' at the bottom despite playing in a game where it's present, therefore he thinks that SirGabriel has a standard alignment. If I were an 'Other' I would have put it at the bottom because I wouldn't want people to think about it too much and it's easy to justify anyways. That whole sentence seems like it was written in a haste without any editing as it's not easily parsed (at least for me). I think a townie would not have posted it, to me it looks like scum/3rd party quickly trying to get a word in. More probably 3rd party, as he later once more suggests that no 'Other' is present.

Lawrencelot (Vytron): no post from Vytron (I think personal problems, so no conclusion from that). 2 quick inputs from Lawrencelot so far, but nothing substantial to go on. Neutral, waiting for re-read and detailed analysis from him.

Next up this afternoon: people whose name starts with M.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:57 pm UTC

Let's continue where we've left off.

Madge: very little content due to being sick. She at first defends Misnomer but it's consistent with her first post. However in her analysis she FoS-s him due to him finding her townie. On the surface it's exceptable however coupled with the previous interaction it might indicate a Madge-Misnomer scum-team as it's also easily retractable later (and Misnomer already explained that it's not exactly a townie-to-scum list). The rest of her analysis seems mostly wishy-washy to me, not committing too much on most people. The exception is her FoS on mpolo where in the same sentence she declares that freezeblade is scum due to clumping. This seems really strange to me, although it is possible that her word-choice was simply off. Could you please explain your phrasing below? Getting strange vibes from her, possibly scum.
Madge wrote:you expect clumping which is proof FB is scum this game too


Minestrone: Again an extremely fast vote, that is reinforced later. Places FoS on me and freezeblade on grounds that I completely disagreed with here and which he did not care to comment later. With 3 posts only - without any real content nonetheless - wanting to lynch lurkers and accusing others for lack of content is very hypocritical in my opinion. Definitely looking scummy, trying to force a lynch.

Misnomer: lots of posts, mostly due to his immediate Q&A and subsequent discussion. Another early vote, seems this is the norm here. My earlier ping on his connection with SirGabriel does not apply anymore due to SirGabriel's clarification. As explained here I don't like people posting gut-feeling lists without analysis to back it up, however he provided reasonable answers to my inquiries so it looks good for now. I currently have him as neutral, leaning town. Also, I should have asked this earlier but forgot: please tell me what prompted you to put me at the bottom of your 'Naughty' list.

moody7277: Second player to find me scummy for mainly asking questions without providing any real content on his own. This seriously frustrates me. His FoS on crucialityfactor seems very strange. Also I find any mass analysis that is based on half-sentence recaps of the players' posts suspicious, as
- it misses a lot of context;
- it can be used to misrepresent facts and opinions;
- it's easy to generate but does not offer real personal insight if you don't explain your read any further.
There is an excellent example of this kind of 'analysis' in Smalltown. Surprise, surprise, it was posted by scum.
To me the post history of moody7277 is the definition of active lurking, so coupled with the above he's looking very scummy to me right now.

mpolo: his 'statistical' analysis was strange, also he expects millers/godfathers among the roles when the rules clearly state that this is not allowed (and he later acknowledges that rule specifically, so I don't know what he was thinking right there). Another half-sentence recap style of mass analysis, but he at least explains his reasoning as well although with not too much detail. The rest is fluff/joke, plus an unvote after his earlier vote on emlightened achieved the intended result. Neutral, leaning 3rd party (as in 'neither townie enough, nor scummy enough').

Analysis of the 2 remaining players plus actual FoS/vote will be a bit later.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:49 pm UTC

Final chapter.

SirGabriel: jumps quickly into alignment discussion and while I would have replied slightly differently nothing jumps at me as being particularly suspicious. Good defence when questioned about his choices. Has a Q&A of his own (with an original wording that's possibly fishing for role but might just be phrased poorly), however he does not participate in the ensuing discussion. Actually, there's minimal content from him since his question. What was your intention with the Q&A and why haven't you followed up with it? Assuming reasonable explanation I have him as neutral, leaning townie.

Snark: the end is finally in sight with only 3 posts (2 of which are very brief). His random (or 'random'?) grouping seems to lead nowhere as expected, I don't think even he considered it seriously. He had a similar gambit in Smalltown, so it might just be his style (keeping in mind that he was SK there). Then he states that he prefers when no-one is lurking, which is again hypocritical. Finally he disagrees with crucialityfactor about 'townie' and 'scummy' ways to react. I think they are talking about slightly different things, so I have no read based on this. Neutral, leaning slightly scummy due to lurking.

Conclusion:
Vote: moody7277
FoS: Minestrone

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby mpolo » Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:59 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:mpolo: his 'statistical' analysis was strange, also he expects millers/godfathers among the roles when the rules clearly state that this is not allowed (and he later acknowledges that rule specifically, so I don't know what he was thinking right there)..


This is incorrect. It is not allowed to have millers/godfathers that are not revealed at death, but millers and godfathers are specifically allowed as I read the rules.

rules wrote:No roles causing false role-reveals - hiding details is fine. (Naive miller/Naive godfather roles are acceptable, but the reveal will include both that the role was a miller/godfather and that the player did not know. Ditto sanities)


We have explicit permission for naive miller/godfather roles, which would imply permission for miller/godfather roles. So, yes, I do think that there could be millers and/or godfathers present. (However, since we don't know what the character's alignment is at the time we write the role, it might have been harder to write such a role…)
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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:05 pm UTC

You're right, I did not remember that part. I was working from this rule:
rules wrote:No roles that specify a win condition or would only work with certain win conditions.

This seemed to imply to me that miller/godfather is out and I still feel that there's a contradiction here, as this role does not work with 3rd party alignments.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Minestrone » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:25 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Places FoS on me and freezeblade on grounds that I completely disagreed with here and which he did not care to comment later.

I didn't feel like that post had much for me to directly comment on but if you would like my response here it is:
Sabrar wrote:@Minestrone: 1) yes, I'm new to this forum, only played Smalltown before. 2) because of this I have no knowledge of what roles other players are likely to submit, therefore I made my list in a vacuum. With that in regard I still think that insane roles are very likely and as SirGabriel only put up cop as insane I went with that first. 3) I didn't think about implications like you suggested but I would ab ovo be cautious with any investigative results and not just because of insanity, we could have scum lying or simply redirection. If you look at Smalltown a lot of speculation was put into jimbobmacdoodle's results and he turned out to be scum later.

1) Not something for me to respond to other than: welcome!
2) I haven't played a Secret Santa either before so my knowledge is no better than yours, so I don't really see this as an excuse. I based my reasoning on the kind of role I would have liked to submit rather than following someone else's ideas.
3) There's a difference between mistrusting investigation results and mistrusting a player who claims results. If we trust that the results should be correct, and the reported results are incorrect, then the player who reports them is lying and should be lynched. I we can't trust that the results would even be correct, then we can't judge the reliability of the results based on the trustworthiness of the player, and scum could report false results with the excuse of insanity.

Also, how can you accuse me of having no real content and also trying to force a lynch? If advocating a lynch isn't content then what is? Long D1 summary posts when there's barely anything to analyse?

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby SirGabriel » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:50 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:What was your intention with the Q&A and why haven't you followed up with it?

The intention was to create discussion, and it doesn't seem to have worked very well. Other than the role I submitted and the role I received, I haven't got a clue what could be in this game, and as far as I can tell, we're getting no useful information until tomorrow, unless someone is clearly acting scummy, which I haven't seen yet. Once Smalltown is over, I will hopefully have more time to focus on this game.

Sabrar wrote:You're right, I did not remember that part. I was working from this rule:
rules wrote:No roles that specify a win condition or would only work with certain win conditions.

This seemed to imply to me that miller/godfather is out and I still feel that there's a contradiction here, as this role does not work with 3rd party alignments.

It's not really that hard. Most cops I've seen either give a town/non-town result (in which third party appears as non-town) or a mafia/not-mafia result (in which third party appears as not-mafia). So someone could have submitted a role which appears to cops to be the opposite of whatever alignment it actually is; there would just need to be a clause on how it appears to cops who don't just give binary results.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:14 pm UTC

@Minestrone: Thank you for the reply!
Minestrone wrote:I didn't feel like that post had much for me to directly comment on

When I place a FoS or vote on someone I aim to revisit it when new information comes up and I expect others to do so as well. I would like to give you an example from Smalltown:
- #HBC | YOLOSWAG places a FoS on me here
- I point out that it is based on a complete misread on his part
- no reaction from him for almost two weeks
- finally on a further prod he acknowledges that I was right
If someone skims through the thread and looks at only the bolded parts he would see a FoS on me that was never revoked or mentioned again. Analysis based on the player's posts would lack the context and be misleading. This is why I feel that it is important to react to what the other players say (also it promotes discussion).
Minestrone wrote:1) Not something for me to respond to other than: welcome!

Of course, just wanted to reply to your comment from here.
Minestrone wrote:2) I haven't played a Secret Santa either before so my knowledge is no better than yours, so I don't really see this as an excuse. I based my reasoning on the kind of role I would have liked to submit rather than following someone else's ideas.

I don't really understand your meaning here. SirGabriel asked us to order a specific list (along with anything else that we could think of but I didn't feel the inclination to come up with a dozen new and original ideas that wouldn't appear regardless in the game just for the sake of this exercise). So I based my reasoning on what I would expect from a bastard game, given that I've never played one before.
Minestrone wrote:3) There's a difference between mistrusting investigation results and mistrusting a player who claims results. If we trust that the results should be correct, and the reported results are incorrect, then the player who reports them is lying and should be lynched. I we can't trust that the results would even be correct, then we can't judge the reliability of the results based on the trustworthiness of the player, and scum could report false results with the excuse of insanity.

Ok, let me put it this way: if you would have asked me straight-up whether I would trust any investigation result in a bastard game, I would have immediately replied no, because of the reasons I've already listed. There was no need for me to try and 'subtly' imply that. Now I understand that there's a difference between an insane role and a lying cop, however I've seen enough scum victories on these forums and elsewhere to know that good scum can sell their lies convincingly.
Minestrone wrote:Also, how can you accuse me of having no real content and also trying to force a lynch? If advocating a lynch isn't content then what is? Long D1 summary posts when there's barely anything to analyse?

Wonderful question, could I trouble you with answering a few questions of my own here? I would really like to understand the mentality of this community, mainly because people seem to find me scummy for incomprehensible reasons (no worries if you don't want to).
To answer your specific question: personally I don't consider an early vote and 2 subsequent posts that just reinforce it enough 'real content' in a turbo game, when you haven't done any analysis on other players or participated in the arguments. It just seems to me that you've set your mind on lynching freezeblade and actively avoid any other discussion. Maybe I'm wrong.


@SirGabriel: thank you for the clarifications! It seemed to me in Smalltown that both our cops (Darryl and Thomas) would receive exact alignment results, so that's why I assumed that that is the norm here.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Minestrone » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:22 pm UTC

It was less your ordering of the list, and more your comment "non-sane roles seem ideal for this kind of setup." Either way it was a minor thing, so I'm not saying that this makes you scum, but you asked me to explain my reasoning for the FOS and so I did.

As for your questions, I would say that good content involves explicitly stated opinions, especially ones that are not widely agreed upon or previously talked about. Asking questions can be helpful for generating discussion, especially on day one, but I would view only asking questions with suspicion because someone who only asks questions superficially appears to be active without making any real stands of their own. As for complaining about lurkers, advocating a lurker lynch is less a complaint that there are too many lurkers and more a statement that scum are likely to be lurkers. Generally "lurking" would be little to no posts/words and "active lurking" would be either many short contentless posts, or, even worse, many long wordy posts that don't actually contribute anything of substance. Normal lurkers are often given some slack because of stated or assumed Real Life things that keep them from posting often, but would be a good idea to lynch if there were truly no other good targets D1 or if they continued to lurk for several in game days. Active lurkers are much more unambiguously scummy and good to lynch but there's plenty of room for argument on whether a person's posts constitute active lurking or not.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Madge » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:40 pm UTC

Was just quickly reading this thread and hopefully will post in a few hours, but this quote begged for a quick response:

Sabrar wrote:The exception is her FoS on mpolo where in the same sentence she declares that freezeblade is scum due to clumping. This seems really strange to me, although it is possible that her word-choice was simply off. Could you please explain your phrasing below? Getting strange vibes from her, possibly scum.
Madge wrote:you expect clumping which is proof FB is scum this game too


I was laying it on thick with the sarcasm there. Basically I was making fun of mpolo's logic. If he says FB is more likely town because he's been scum so much recently, then I can use the same sort of bad statistical arguments to argue that he's mostly scum because he's been scum so much recently.

For better or for worse (*cough, cough*) I'm at work again today so hopefully I'll be able to bring a post up like I said.
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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:03 pm UTC

Quick responses before heading to bed.
@Minestrone: thank you very much for your input! My understanding (based on the description in this thread) was that FoS is an unofficial vote and not just some minor thing, that's why I 'jumped' on it.
@Madge: sorry for not catching the sarcasm, seems much more reasonable this way. :)

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Snark » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:56 am UTC

I'll have a post here in the morning, but it won't be near enough the deadline to influence anyone, I think.

Unvote
Vote: patzer


Based on having only one post thus far.

I'll have an actual vote in the morning and hopefully patzer will have given content by then so as not to still be a good lurker vote.
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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Madge » Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:14 am UTC

holy crap deadline in 9 hours where does the time go???

Another thing I've noticed is there's lots of random chat about lynching lurkers or not. I'm always a fan of lynching lurkers, since they give us the least material to examine for flaws in the end-game, so in the absence of anything else it can be a good option, and it means that you're not stuck on D5 as the confirmed townie having to choose between two people and both of them have like 12 posts each the entire game.

I think it'd be easy to submit a miller. Let's say I just submitted a normal boring roleblocker who is rudolph the red nosed raindeer or something. I could say "because Rudolph is a reindeer who saved the day, everyone thinks he's good, so regardless of his alignment or abilities that are used on him, he will always cop as town". But it seems like an odd detail to put in for a role that you submit, especially if you're submitting from the assumption that you're probably town so you should try and make sure your role is helpful to town.

@ninja - umm i'm pretty sure patzer has been replaced by DJ? probably explains the lack of posts....

I've just realised we don't have votals all page! I will try and count them.

Votals:

Minestrone - 1 (patzerDjehutynakht)
Misnomer - 1 (freezeblade)
VytronLawrencelot - 1 (moody7277)
freezeblade - 1 (Minestrone)
moody - 2 (Misnomer, Sabrar)
Patzer - 1 (Snark)

OK so there's a tiny nascent wagon on moody which is confusing to me because nothing he did struck me as odd.

vote: misnomer

the ordering lists are really weird from a meta point of view and i know scum likes to do stuff to make it look like they're participating whilst making town focus on weird things like does it matter if SirGabriel (and only sirgabriel!) thinks we're more likely to have a militant atheist or a beloved soul. Being one of the people voting on moody which I just don't quite understand, moody is being stock standard moody. may as well let misnomer be part of the conversation here.
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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby mpolo » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:53 pm UTC

Argh. Time is short and I really don't know what to do at this point.

jimbob is tending to look scummier by his absence, but that's not really fair, since he told us there was a real-world reason for this.
Crucialityfactor is looking fairly good at this point.
Sabrar has been reasonably active. From my point of view, harping on a statistical error is mildly scummy (as I know my own alignment), but I can understand his concern.
Madge's point on Misnomer is reasonable. I also don't understand the interest in moody — he hasn't really stood out for me. However, there have also been a lot of statements with provisos and takebacks and the like. This latest one isn't so bad, but the earlier one was so padded as to have little content.

I'm going to

Vote: Madge

mostly to have a vote down at all. (I'm going out for a couple of hours, and if everything goes wrong, it could be my last post of the day.)

I hope nonetheless that I will be online again after lunch to finalize my vote. [Internet went out before posting… After lunch I'll be back.]
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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:09 pm UTC

People do realize that deadline is in an hour, right? Having a significant overlap with Smalltown (where we had 3 vote-related abilities) I could imagine that one or two players didn't vote on purpose, but this many is problematic. Also we still have 2 random votes (patzer on Minestrone and moody7277 on Vytron). I would immediately FoS moody7277 for not removing a random vote, however I'm already voting for him so there's no point. patzer asked for replacement so that's more understandable, but Djehutynakht should have chimed in by now.

@Suzaku: Could we get a mod prod on Djehutynakht please?

@ninja: mpolo finds Madge's point reasonable but still votes for her? What's up with that? It's too late for voting just for voting's sake. Could you explain this mpolo?

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Suzaku » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:25 pm UTC

Votals:

Minestrone - 1 (patzerDjehutynakht)
Misnomer - 2 (freezeblade, Madge)
VytronLawrencelot - 1 (moody7277)
freezeblade - 1 (Minestrone)
moody7277 - 2 (Misnomer, Sabrar)
patzerDjehutynakht - 1 (Snark)
Madge - 1 (mpolo)

Not Voting (5) - crucialityfactor, VytronLawrencelot, emlightened, jimbobmacdoodle, SirGabriel

With 14 alive, it requires 8 votes to hammer.

Deadline: 2016/12/22 00:00 JST (12/21 15:00 UTC). In 1.5 hours from now.
Deadline is soft, so posting and voting may continue until I call night (or there's a hammer vote).
Remember this game is pseudo-nightless - please submit night actions before the deadline.
Note that tied votals will be settled by random.org

Stuff people asked the mod:
Sabrar wrote:@Suzaku: Could we get a mod prod on Djehutynakht please?

Certainly.
Pronouns: he/him/his > they/them/their >> it/it/its
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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Lawrencelot » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:29 pm UTC

So I feel kind of detached from this game for two reasons: 1) there hasn't really been any interaction with my predecessor and 2) I haven't submitted a role myself. This makes the game a bit less fun than I expected it to be but I hope it will improve over time. Of course this is two-sided: if I put more effort into the game there would be more interaction. Now moody is the only one who said something about me. And Misnomer puts me on an unreasonable high position on his town list.

Misnomer wrote:If you're asking me how townie I feel I've come across as so far this game, then I'd say leaning town with a fair chance of being third party

This feels scummy to me. I can't imagine a townie saying this, it requires too much effort to 'put yourself in someone else's shoes' and too much of the hypothetical.

moody wrote:Lawr- short reads post, positive on Snark, neg on cf, neutral on mpolo and fb. nervously neutral.

What do you mean with nervously neutral? If anything I'd say that about my read on mpolo, since I really can't read him, not about my read on fb. And is this really enough to vote for me? You say yourself that Sabrar looks slightly scummy to you, why don't you vote him?

Snark wrote:I'll have a post here in the morning, but it won't be near enough the deadline to influence anyone, I think.

Unvote
Vote: patzer


Based on having only one post thus far.

I'll have an actual vote in the morning and hopefully patzer will have given content by then so as not to still be a good lurker vote.

I replaced patzer. And you still haven't answered my question. It's starting to look like it's deliberate.

Vote: Snark

Ninja: I see Misnomer has the most votals, together with moody. If I can post again before deadline, I will vote either of them.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby crucialityfactor » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:30 pm UTC

Could we maybe have an extension of 12-24 hours?

I don't have the time to post on the weekends really and have only been able to skim. Plus you're calling a deadline that's like 9am Eastern on a Monday.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:34 pm UTC

Suzaku wrote:Effective immediately Lawrencelot replaces Vytron.

patzer has informed me that she accidentally read a spoiler.
Effective immediately Djehutynakht replaces patzer.

Please be careful not to read game spoilers in the discussion thread; replacements don't grow on trees.

@Lawrencelot: according to the mod, you replaced Vytron. Please re-read the materials you received.

Sabrar wrote:Also we still have 2 random votes (patzer on Minestrone and moody7277 on Vytron). I would immediately FoS moody7277 for not removing a random vote, however I'm already voting for him so there's no point.

I would like to retract this statement, during my re-read I missed moody7277's latest post. My sincere apologies.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Snark » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:41 pm UTC

Lawrencelot wrote:I replaced patzer. And you still haven't answered my question. It's starting to look like it's deliberate.

Vote: Snark
You're voting me because I missed your question after I didn't even realize you were a replacement and I said I was doing a reread in the morning? Great reasoning.

Rereading now. Post in 10 minutes.
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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby Sabrar » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:45 pm UTC

crucialityfactor wrote:Could we maybe have an extension of 12-24 hours?

Seconded, due to the confusion with Lawrencelot's replacement and possible activity from Djehutynakht following a mod prod.

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Re: 2015 Secret Santa by Suzaku - D1 - Christmas Cheer

Postby mpolo » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:53 pm UTC

In case it doesn't get extended:

Unvote

Vote: Misnomer

Of the two, I feel less comfortable with him, and I'd rather not have random.org deciding the game for us.

If there is an extension, can I put in an "Unvote" for as soon as the extension is granted?
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