Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
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- Yakk
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
A link might be helpful:
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11174940/1 ... ant-Digits
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/11174940/1 ... ant-Digits
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR
Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Patzer also linked to the author's own site in the first post about it (on the previous page).
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
- Yakk
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Ah, I'm just blind.
Carry on.
Carry on.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR
Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
So some other thoughts, speculation, very spoilery so spoilered:
On a different note, some of this might have already been implied or possibly outright stated in HPMOR itself but it jumped out at me reading SD:
On which note, one last bit of speculation:
And now to invite speculation from others:
Spoiler:
On a different note, some of this might have already been implied or possibly outright stated in HPMOR itself but it jumped out at me reading SD:
Spoiler:
On which note, one last bit of speculation:
Spoiler:
And now to invite speculation from others:
Spoiler:
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Pfhorrest wrote:Spoiler:
I think you might be right and would even go so far to say that it's not just intended/supported by Harry, but outright required. Remember that
Spoiler:
- Whizbang
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
All caught up. My favorite part so far was Pip's Day Out, especially the bit where he delivered the decrees to the centaurs.
Remember that wizards age much slower than muggles. Also, that Tom Riddle was born in 1926.
Pfhorrest wrote:And now to invite speculation from others:Spoiler:
Remember that wizards age much slower than muggles. Also, that Tom Riddle was born in 1926.
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Pfhorrest wrote:On which note, one last bit of speculation:Spoiler:
It occurs to me now that it could also be referring to
Spoiler:
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Chapter 16 is up now. Is anyone else here besides me caught up yet?
It seems
It seems
Spoiler:
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
does anyone else think that
Spoiler:
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
- Whizbang
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
For sure. Harry has a "for the greater good" problem.
- Whizbang
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Evidently Harry agrees and has worked a new plan.
Ah, the ol' "Recruit teenagers to save the world" stratagem.
Ah, the ol' "Recruit teenagers to save the world" stratagem.
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
I haven't read anything of Significant Digits but the table of contents, but I spotted a chapter title "Azkaban". Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the strong impression from HPMOR's final chapter that a) Harry was going to teach Hermione the Dementor-killing spell, b) Harry was going to bypass all debate on Azkaban, c) Hermione was going to just show up and commence the Dementor slaughter, and d) this was going to happen from start to finish within a few weeks of that chapter. Given all of that, how is it that Azkaban still exists to be the subject of a chapter at all? Does the story explain this discrepancy?
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
douglasm wrote:I haven't read anything of Significant Digits but the table of contents, but I spotted a chapter title "Azkaban". Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the strong impression from HPMOR's final chapter that a) Harry was going to teach Hermione the Dementor-killing spell, b) Harry was going to bypass all debate on Azkaban, c) Hermione was going to just show up and commence the Dementor slaughter, and d) this was going to happen from start to finish within a few weeks of that chapter. Given all of that, how is it that Azkaban still exists to be the subject of a chapter at all? Does the story explain this discrepancy?
It's a flashback chapter covering the events implied to follow just after HPMOR, which have ongoing repercussions in the goings-on of the present-day of the story.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
So the new chapter is finally getting to some of the really interesting stuff I've been looking forward to.
I wonder if Harry will put one of those fancy extended spaces into, say... a police box... and then put that in space... somehow wired to a time turner....
I wonder if Harry will put one of those fancy extended spaces into, say... a police box... and then put that in space... somehow wired to a time turner....
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Pfhorrest wrote:I wonder if Harry will put one of those fancy extended spaces into, say... a police box... and then put that in space... somehow wired to a time turner....
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I'm not even a fan of Dr Who but even I would get a huge amount of gratification from this plan.
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Yeah...it's getting kind of deep into the details and the plotting, but without any real adversary. Kinda hoping it picks up soonish.
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Agreed :\ However, I'll be able to forgive the author anything due to his extreme use of diacritics, and random, uncalled-for, often untranslated Other Languages. I like that particular affectation.
- Whizbang
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Chapter 30
So...
Finally, some overt evil to fight.
Also,
So...
Spoiler:
Finally, some overt evil to fight.

Also,
Spoiler:
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
New chapter on Significant Digits and, woah, it's quite a thing. I admit I haven't quite understoof the plot twist in the last paragraphs yet, but reddit already has some possible interpretations. We also get treated to a description of that fateful Walpurgisnacht. However I wonder if there's more untold yet, since I don't see how Voldemort almost escaped that day. Tragic happenings, but it wasn't the cunning attack I thought it was.
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Yes, SD continues to be awesome.
On a different note, I just realized something. There's this passage from HPMOR chapter 109, Voldemort speaking of a legend he believes relates to the Mirror:
It strikes me that that is remarkably analogous to what EY does for a living -- trying to build a friendly superintelligent general artificial intelligence. A machine that can harness enormous power and "grant wishes" -- do whatever humans ask of it -- but carefully built to not destroy the world in the process.
The Mirror is the magical equivalent of a Friendly AI. Perhaps an incomplete one, somehow, as the chapter continues on to say that the aforementioned endeavor was never completed and that's why Atlantis was destroyed anyway.
On a different note, I just realized something. There's this passage from HPMOR chapter 109, Voldemort speaking of a legend he believes relates to the Mirror:
I found written the claim that some Atlanteans foresaw their world's end, and sought to forge a device of great power to avert the inevitable catastrophe. If that device had been completed, the story claimed, it would have become an absolutely stable existence that could withstand the channeling of unlimited magic in order to grant wishes. And also - this was said to be the vastly harder task - the device would somehow avert the inevitable catastrophes any sane person would expect to follow from that premise. The aspect I found interesting was that, according to the tale writ upon those metal plates, the rest of Atlantis ignored this project and went upon their ways. It was sometimes praised as a noble public endeavor, but nearly all other Atlanteans found more important things to do on any given day than help. Even the Atlantean nobles ignored the prospect of somebody other than themselves obtaining unchallengeable power, which a less experienced cynic might expect to catch their attention. With relatively little support, the tiny handful of would-be makers of this device labored under working conditions that were not so much dramatically arduous, as pointlessly annoying.
It strikes me that that is remarkably analogous to what EY does for a living -- trying to build a friendly superintelligent general artificial intelligence. A machine that can harness enormous power and "grant wishes" -- do whatever humans ask of it -- but carefully built to not destroy the world in the process.
The Mirror is the magical equivalent of a Friendly AI. Perhaps an incomplete one, somehow, as the chapter continues on to say that the aforementioned endeavor was never completed and that's why Atlantis was destroyed anyway.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Pfhorrest wrote:It strikes me that that is remarkably analogous to what EY does for a living -- trying to build a friendly superintelligent general artificial intelligence. A machine that can harness enormous power and "grant wishes" -- do whatever humans ask of it -- but carefully built to not destroy the world in the process.
The Mirror is the magical equivalent of a Friendly AI. Perhaps an incomplete one, somehow, as the chapter continues on to say that the aforementioned endeavor was never completed and that's why Atlantis was destroyed anyway.
As I understand it, that was exactly his intention behind the analogy. It also served the plot by providing some information about the mirror.
While on the subject on the mirror, I still haven't figured how exactly it's supposed to do the things it's doing in SD. I think I have to reread everything in HPMOR again from the point where they arrive at the mirror.
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
raudorn wrote:While on the subject on the mirror, I still haven't figured how exactly it's supposed to do the things it's doing in SD. I think I have to reread everything in HPMOR again from the point where they arrive at the mirror.
If you're wondering how it's all in the mirror in the first place, that ties back to the weird geometry of the Tower spelled out in earlier chapters. The whole Tower is roughly triangular in shape, and every single room is an "irregular quadrilateral". It sounds to me like this is arranged so that, if you were to open all the doors to every room (and nothing was in there obstructing the view yet), every single point inside the tower would be within view of the... entrance... at once.
If you're wondering how being in the mirror allows the things that happened in that battle to happen, let me know when you figure it out because the best explanation I have so far is "because Harry wanted them to and this is his wish-fulfillent world". (Perhaps the "wish" "granted" in this particular mirror-world is that Harry's legendary snap-his-fingers-to-make-anything-happen power is real?).
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Pfhorrest wrote:If you're wondering how being in the mirror allows the things that happened in that battle to happen, let me know when you figure it out because the best explanation I have so far is "because Harry wanted them to and this is his wish-fulfillent world". (Perhaps the "wish" "granted" in this particular mirror-world is that Harry's legendary snap-his-fingers-to-make-anything-happen power is real?).
The mirror is described in detail in chapter 109 of MoR. Reading over what it says there... the mirror's primary (or "most characteristic", to use the original wording) power is to "create alternate realms of existence". Obviously, the Tower is such a realm, contained entirely within the mirror. The general capabilities of the mirror are not fully described, but a major point is that rules can be set, and these rules cannot distinguish among individuals and (this part's partly speculation by Voldemort) must be related to the rule-setter's deep desires and wishes.
Combine all this with a line from the most recent chapter, "they even make the Killing Curse as dangerous as buttermilk so long as you're in the Tower", and it seems pretty obvious to me. Harry, deeply desiring to defeat death, set a rule that a spell whose sole purpose is to kill will not work inside the mirror-created alternate world. The Killing Curse, cast inside the Tower, I think merely knocks the target unconscious. It might even create an illusion of its normal effect while actually making the target undetectable (and still conscious and active), but that strikes me as dangerously exploitable if anyone figures it out. The finger snapping either is merely showmanship or is the trigger for something subtle and generally harmless. It can't be made specific to Harry snapping his fingers, so if it does trigger something the trigger needs to be safe for other people to trigger by snapping their fingers.
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
So when you stand in front of the mirror it shows your Coherent Extrapolated Volition, basically "your strongest desire" with extra fancy philosophical additions. And if you know how, you can store things in the mirror with certain conditions for their release, as well as somehow enter the mirror. But how does this work in the case of the Tower? Is it basically the entrance and everyone entering the Tower walks through it like a portal? Or do people stay outside (unconscious?), while the mirror simulates what they would do in that simulated death-free world and then somehow manifests any changes to their bodies? And what does it mean exactly to be "in the mirror"?
I'm trying to wrap around my head around these questions, but can't answer them in any coherent manner. If I had to write a scripted videogame scene that takes a person from the outside up to the inner Tower, my best guess would be the following:
The entrance of the Tower is just the mirror embeded in wall to make it seemless. Harry stepped in front of the mirror and it showed a world of his CEV, which involves death being optional. Then he managed to shape the displayed world and convinced the mirror to make anything going in and coming out from that world behave as if there were a regular pocket of space behind that mirror. So when someone enters the mirror, they are "virtualized" and now exist in the simulated world within the mirror. But since the interface between both worlds behaves as if there was none, it's not obious. When they exit again, they are materialized in the real world with all changes that happened in the mirror world.
This might work, but does require Harry to have incredible control over the mirror and force it do only show his CEV, not the ones of other people. It also means that the entrance is the only ontological entrance to the Tower. You simply can't apparate into the Tower, because the real world (of SD) does not contain a space where any part of the Tower exists.
I'm trying to wrap around my head around these questions, but can't answer them in any coherent manner. If I had to write a scripted videogame scene that takes a person from the outside up to the inner Tower, my best guess would be the following:
The entrance of the Tower is just the mirror embeded in wall to make it seemless. Harry stepped in front of the mirror and it showed a world of his CEV, which involves death being optional. Then he managed to shape the displayed world and convinced the mirror to make anything going in and coming out from that world behave as if there were a regular pocket of space behind that mirror. So when someone enters the mirror, they are "virtualized" and now exist in the simulated world within the mirror. But since the interface between both worlds behaves as if there was none, it's not obious. When they exit again, they are materialized in the real world with all changes that happened in the mirror world.
This might work, but does require Harry to have incredible control over the mirror and force it do only show his CEV, not the ones of other people. It also means that the entrance is the only ontological entrance to the Tower. You simply can't apparate into the Tower, because the real world (of SD) does not contain a space where any part of the Tower exists.
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
I think the actual space that is the Tower building really does exist in the real world, but the entirety of it is within view of the mirror, and so subject to its effects. We've already seen in canon HP that things happening in the mirror can affect what happens in the real world — Harry sees the philosopher's stone in his hand in the mirror, and then suddenly it's in his hand in reality — so when the entirety of the Tower is reflected in the mirror, those kinds of effects can be applied to everything inside the tower.
The only remaining questions I see are why only some mirror-things become real — canon Harry's parents didn't really return to life — and why the world in the mirror responds only to Harry's CEV, and not somehow those of everyone in the Tower. (Also, what happens if Harry leaves the Tower?)
The only remaining questions I see are why only some mirror-things become real — canon Harry's parents didn't really return to life — and why the world in the mirror responds only to Harry's CEV, and not somehow those of everyone in the Tower. (Also, what happens if Harry leaves the Tower?)
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Pfhorrest wrote:[...] why the world in the mirror responds only to Harry's CEV, and not somehow those of everyone in the Tower.
So long as it's responding to his CEV, presumably it can only respond to others' if that wouldn't introduce inconsistency?
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
I've got a theory.
The Mirror is not incomplete. It "grants wishes" by opening portals to worlds where those wishes are already true. And it is the reason that Atlantis was erased from history: the Atlanteans who built it, realizing that Atlantean civilization was on the verge of destroying the world (or worse), wished for a world where that was not so, and were granted access to a world where Atlantis never existed -- this world. Those survivors of Atlantis then became the first wizards of this world, perhaps the Eleusinian Mysteries or their predecessors (who perhaps codified magic into safe, user-friendly packages activated by spoken spells and wand gestures, hence the Latinate nature of most spell names).
Perhaps the Mirror itself is actually the Source of Magic in this world, as in the device through which whatever fundamental magical laws of the universe (that must supersede the physical "laws" magic routinely violates) are leveraged to produce the effects that we see wizards use. (And I still think free and more specifically partial transfiguration, and the Goblins' "will-work", directly accesses said fundamental magic, bypassing the prepackaged application of it into spells).
And perhaps the eponymous transmigration that gives the title to the book Harry is reassembling is the migration of said Atlantean survivors from their doomed world to this one.
Perhaps Merlin himself, apparently of Ancient Greek origin before his immigration to Britain, was one of those Atlanteans.
The Mirror is not incomplete. It "grants wishes" by opening portals to worlds where those wishes are already true. And it is the reason that Atlantis was erased from history: the Atlanteans who built it, realizing that Atlantean civilization was on the verge of destroying the world (or worse), wished for a world where that was not so, and were granted access to a world where Atlantis never existed -- this world. Those survivors of Atlantis then became the first wizards of this world, perhaps the Eleusinian Mysteries or their predecessors (who perhaps codified magic into safe, user-friendly packages activated by spoken spells and wand gestures, hence the Latinate nature of most spell names).
Perhaps the Mirror itself is actually the Source of Magic in this world, as in the device through which whatever fundamental magical laws of the universe (that must supersede the physical "laws" magic routinely violates) are leveraged to produce the effects that we see wizards use. (And I still think free and more specifically partial transfiguration, and the Goblins' "will-work", directly accesses said fundamental magic, bypassing the prepackaged application of it into spells).
And perhaps the eponymous transmigration that gives the title to the book Harry is reassembling is the migration of said Atlantean survivors from their doomed world to this one.
Perhaps Merlin himself, apparently of Ancient Greek origin before his immigration to Britain, was one of those Atlanteans.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Well, it's a bit late for the actual threat to materialize, but hey, I'll take it. At least we've got some credible opposition now.
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
I'm guessing the next chapter will include something like this:
Harry: You are meddling with things you do not understand, Meldh, and doing so for your own ambition and greed. That poses a risk to the world, which I cannot allow. *evict*
Meldh: WTF?
The chapter makes a point of noting that even Meldh can't break Harry's Unbreakable Vow, so to me that suggests it as a viable source of Harry resisting. Meldh just needs to do something that the Vow considers unacceptable first. So far all he's done is examine and comment on things, and some adjustment of unconscious biases might even be beneficial, but the moment he starts on the "Harry's my personal servant now" alterations I expect the Vow to object.
My impression of Meldh himself at this point is that he's blinded by prejudice (Harry is too, but Meldh is more and has less awareness of it), overly contemptuous of muggles, and competing out of his intellectual weight class with the raw power of ancient magic lore. He sees a lot of Harry's conclusions as ridiculous because he doesn't understand the reasoning behind them. Further, I think he wants to save the world because he happens to be living on it, not because he actually cares that much about it, so he views "saving the world" as more of something that restricts his available options for his real goals rather than as a goal in its own right. That makes him willing to push the boundaries on that restriction in ways that Harry would never accept, and I'm guessing that will prove to be his downfall.
Harry: You are meddling with things you do not understand, Meldh, and doing so for your own ambition and greed. That poses a risk to the world, which I cannot allow. *evict*
Meldh: WTF?
The chapter makes a point of noting that even Meldh can't break Harry's Unbreakable Vow, so to me that suggests it as a viable source of Harry resisting. Meldh just needs to do something that the Vow considers unacceptable first. So far all he's done is examine and comment on things, and some adjustment of unconscious biases might even be beneficial, but the moment he starts on the "Harry's my personal servant now" alterations I expect the Vow to object.
My impression of Meldh himself at this point is that he's blinded by prejudice (Harry is too, but Meldh is more and has less awareness of it), overly contemptuous of muggles, and competing out of his intellectual weight class with the raw power of ancient magic lore. He sees a lot of Harry's conclusions as ridiculous because he doesn't understand the reasoning behind them. Further, I think he wants to save the world because he happens to be living on it, not because he actually cares that much about it, so he views "saving the world" as more of something that restricts his available options for his real goals rather than as a goal in its own right. That makes him willing to push the boundaries on that restriction in ways that Harry would never accept, and I'm guessing that will prove to be his downfall.
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Maybe? I mean, he seems pleased by the Vow. Serves his ends and all. And a complete breakout here by Harry would kind of remove all the tension and challenge. All these short threats that are quickly disposed of kind of kills the buildup. Narratively, Harry overpowering at this point doesn't seem like it really works. So, my guess is we're going to get some modifications to build the threat level, and re-explore "I recognize that I am confused".
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
He does seem pleased by the Vow, what I'm suggesting is that he doesn't understand the Vow's full implications, particularly in light of Harry's knowledge of prophecy and muggle-like reasoning about the distant and galactic future and Harry's role, and will push up against it with something he doesn't realize is in conflict with the Vow until it's too late.
I don't expect Harry to outright win this encounter. Meldh actually being captured is exceedingly unlikely. Even if Harry escapes control, Meldh has already corrupted a substantial core of high ranking Tower insiders, and that's going to rip a severe hole in Harry's organization. I'm thinking Harry escapes by the Vow and an exceedingly hasty disengage, alerts Tower security, Meldh escapes via some bullshit OP ancient magic, and Harry's left with the nightmare scenario of figuring out who's been altered and how trustworthy they still are (and can he even trust himself!) and how to prevent it happening again, while Meldh brings information about the Vow and Harry's beliefs and prophecies back to The Three.
While Harry rationalizing his way to defeating the modifications later could be interesting, it would be difficult to pull off convincingly with the depth of alteration Meldh has been shown to be capable of, and Meldh getting out completely undetected would be a bit anticlimactic.
I don't expect Harry to outright win this encounter. Meldh actually being captured is exceedingly unlikely. Even if Harry escapes control, Meldh has already corrupted a substantial core of high ranking Tower insiders, and that's going to rip a severe hole in Harry's organization. I'm thinking Harry escapes by the Vow and an exceedingly hasty disengage, alerts Tower security, Meldh escapes via some bullshit OP ancient magic, and Harry's left with the nightmare scenario of figuring out who's been altered and how trustworthy they still are (and can he even trust himself!) and how to prevent it happening again, while Meldh brings information about the Vow and Harry's beliefs and prophecies back to The Three.
While Harry rationalizing his way to defeating the modifications later could be interesting, it would be difficult to pull off convincingly with the depth of alteration Meldh has been shown to be capable of, and Meldh getting out completely undetected would be a bit anticlimactic.
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
The fun thing about reasoned introspection is that, so long as Meldh does actually leave Harry's capacity to do that intact, it doesn't really matter what Meldh changed, because Harry's ongoing self-reevaluation will catch any problems introduced by Meldh and begin correcting them, and any non-problematic changes Meldh made don't need to be changed back so it doesn't matter if they're caught or not.
It's like, if someone magically changed all scientists' beliefs about how the world worked, and all our textbooks and journals and other records of them too, so long as they left the scientific methodology in place, we would eventually (possibly sometimes quite quickly!) discover the errors in "our" (the imposed) theories and update them with that new information, getting back to where we were before the intervention in time (more quickly the more significant the introduced errors are; if the dark wizard convinced us all that apples fall up, we'd fix that belief pretty quickly). And if any of the introduced changes were not actually errors, well, they don't need fixing, and all is well.
in before "but values aren't objective and don't work like that" -- one, no, you're wrong, but to moot that argument, harry is inviolably hard-wired by the Vow to value the protection of the world above all else, which was already his core value to begin with, so the introspection on any changes to his values and their possible conflict with the unchangeable values imparted by the Vow will bring him back to his old values in time anyway.
It's like, if someone magically changed all scientists' beliefs about how the world worked, and all our textbooks and journals and other records of them too, so long as they left the scientific methodology in place, we would eventually (possibly sometimes quite quickly!) discover the errors in "our" (the imposed) theories and update them with that new information, getting back to where we were before the intervention in time (more quickly the more significant the introduced errors are; if the dark wizard convinced us all that apples fall up, we'd fix that belief pretty quickly). And if any of the introduced changes were not actually errors, well, they don't need fixing, and all is well.
in before "but values aren't objective and don't work like that" -- one, no, you're wrong, but to moot that argument, harry is inviolably hard-wired by the Vow to value the protection of the world above all else, which was already his core value to begin with, so the introspection on any changes to his values and their possible conflict with the unchangeable values imparted by the Vow will bring him back to his old values in time anyway.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
It's really quite tempting to put things down and start reading this, but then it occurs to me I'd probably be much better off waiting for it to reach its conclusion.
The first anniversary of HPMOR's conclusion is March 14. Maybe we'll finally see those omake files.
The first anniversary of HPMOR's conclusion is March 14. Maybe we'll finally see those omake files.
"The Machine Stops", by E. M. Forster (1909)
Barry Schwartz TED Talk: "The Paradox of Choice" (Featuring the True Secret to Happiness)
Barry Schwartz TED Talk: "The Paradox of Choice" (Featuring the True Secret to Happiness)
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Interesting.
Spoiler:
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
Harry's Vow does not compel any positive action. It could certainly be the reason that he opened and closed his mouth several times without saying anything, but it cannot have forced him to say, "Yes, sir!"
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
I'm perhaps being dense.
Spoiler:
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
It wasn't clear to me either.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)
Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality
jobriath wrote:I'm perhaps being dense.Spoiler:
I think that was intentionally vague. Presumably it was some fantastically effective avenue to power, with a difficult to understand and/or low-chance high-value risk involved. Another possibility for this plot arc's resolution is Meldh using whatever idea it was and falling afoul of the risk Harry discarded it for.
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