British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, politics ensue]

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Grop » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:09 pm UTC

But then racist has been used as an adjective in most of this thread.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:17 pm UTC

Grop wrote:But then racist has been used as an adjective in most of this thread.


That's the definition of "slur", not racist. It's defining slur as a noun(as opposed to slurred speech), not claiming that slurs can only be nouns.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby KrytenKoro » Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:20 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:....No. I'm implying that just because some leader of some movement says or promotes something, that those who participate in his campaign will not necessarily share his motives and will vote for the same reason he does.

Which is why I find absurd the idea that just because some political campaign heads bought some ads and some of them promoted their side on xenophobic ideas, then clearly most of who voted Brexit did so for the same reason.

You don't even know these Catholics I was talking about, and here you are ready to state that the reason these Catholics voted with a different reason/motive than the Church is because they're not real Catholics; they're just aping their parents. Which is not necessarily true, because several of them may be devout in their way to their religion, but they follow their religion for different reasons and goals. They're not Catholic Lite as you would imply. There are Catholics who voted against abortion who also voted for gay marriage, or those who advocate in favor of divorce but not gay marriage; they're not all the same secular Catholics.

Catholicism is not Protestantism. You by definition cannot be considered a devout, principled Catholic if you are not in line with what the administration preaches. You may very well be a good person by disagreeing with what they have to say, and you may still retain some Catholic beliefs, but if you believe in tolerance for those that the Holy See says are making grave sins, then by definition you are a non-devout Catholic.

There's not really any way to dispute that, and I wouldn't need to know the Catholics personally -- all I need to know is how Catholicism works.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:01 pm UTC

but if you believe in tolerance for those that the Holy See says are making grave sins, then by definition you are a non-devout Catholic


Erm... I consider myself a devout Catholic and I believe in letting homosexual marriage become legalized. Its utterly impossible to politically agree with another entity 100%.

And if some woman does get an abortion, its not like I'm going to "not tolerate" them. I don't believe it is right but the whole "judge not lest ye be judged" thing is sorta big.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Lucrece » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:48 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
Lucrece wrote:....No. I'm implying that just because some leader of some movement says or promotes something, that those who participate in his campaign will not necessarily share his motives and will vote for the same reason he does.

Which is why I find absurd the idea that just because some political campaign heads bought some ads and some of them promoted their side on xenophobic ideas, then clearly most of who voted Brexit did so for the same reason.

You don't even know these Catholics I was talking about, and here you are ready to state that the reason these Catholics voted with a different reason/motive than the Church is because they're not real Catholics; they're just aping their parents. Which is not necessarily true, because several of them may be devout in their way to their religion, but they follow their religion for different reasons and goals. They're not Catholic Lite as you would imply. There are Catholics who voted against abortion who also voted for gay marriage, or those who advocate in favor of divorce but not gay marriage; they're not all the same secular Catholics.

Catholicism is not Protestantism. You by definition cannot be considered a devout, principled Catholic if you are not in line with what the administration preaches. You may very well be a good person by disagreeing with what they have to say, and you may still retain some Catholic beliefs, but if you believe in tolerance for those that the Holy See says are making grave sins, then by definition you are a non-devout Catholic.

There's not really any way to dispute that, and I wouldn't need to know the Catholics personally -- all I need to know is how Catholicism works.



That's not how Catholicism works. I know Protestants like to spread the idea that they're the only Christian sect with room for disagreement, but the Catholic Church also has the means to negotiate its positions with its followers, or otherwise they would still be selling indulgences up to this day, for example. The church just had a synod discussing family law, among them gay relationships. That it didn't have a great outcome is bad, but the forums are there.

It's definitely a much slower and resistant institution to change, but that's also in part due to its size and hierarchy of membership. They simply did a cost-benefit analysis and losing Africa, several Latin American nations and its outreach efforts in Eastern Europe simply favored the status quo.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby mcd001 » Fri Jul 01, 2016 5:57 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:...if you believe in tolerance for those that the Holy See says are making grave sins, then by definition you are a non-devout Catholic.

I'm not Catholic, but I'm certain the Catholic church does not mandate or require intolerance towards those who commit sins, even homosexuals. From your statement above, you seem to be using the modern liberal/left definition of the word tolerance, which once meant "willingness to allow the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with" but now means "officially agreeing to something or accepting something as satisfactory" (that is approval).

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby speising » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:43 pm UTC

Surprisingly on topic video on pornhub:
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Jumble » Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:57 pm UTC

I'm afraid I'm not following that link on this computer, but I see what you did there.

To get away from the protestant-catholic debate (which I'm pretty sure would be challenged on 'Just a Minute' for deviation):

gmalivuk wrote:In any case, until an actual person in the UK, who was directly exposed to all the Leave propaganda and 20+ years of UKIP campaigning before that, offers a reasonable explanation of how totally not-xenophobic the movement as a whole is, I'm done caring what other American armchair commentators have to say about it.


Speaking as an actual person in the UK who is old enough to have been of voting age for the last 23 years of UKIP propaganda, no, they are utterly 100%, copper-bottomed xenophobes. Basically BNP-lite.

The rest of the leave campaign, as I said earlier, appear to have been motivated by slightly more complex reasons. In the case of the leadership it seems to be mainly personal ambition and greed. I suspect that will work out well.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:29 pm UTC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-u ... u-36689608

Some interesting stats in a recent poll:

* 5% of leave voters would now change their vote, compared to 2% of remain voters. If true that would change the outcome. Are swings back to the centre normal after referendum results? Just wondering if this really means a second referendum would result in Remain. I mean, it's just a poll but that is a fairly significant swing back to Remain.

* 38% of people aren't sure the UK will go ahead with Brexit, 16 of that 38% thinking it won't. Not sure where they're getting this idea, all politicians have been clear that we definitely are leaving apart from the Lib Dems who are openly campaigning on staying in.

* Most voters thought that politicians don't represent their views, this was 2/3 for Leave voters.

* Most voters didn't believe politicians would get the best deal for the UK from Brexit negotiations, this was 3/4 for Remain voters.

* More voters would prefer to have both the Single Market and Freedom of Movement than those who would do without either. This is important because whether or not we keep freedom of movement is something most politicians have been avoiding talking about. Apart from some Leave MPs who have insisted it stops. I've not seen anyone openly advocate keeping it. However, the situation with the border between Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland gets *way* more complicated if we don't keep it.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby elasto » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:03 am UTC

Mutex wrote:However, the situation with the border between Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland gets *way* more complicated if we don't keep it.

Truthfully I'm not sure it does. Loads of countries have land borders with other countries and hardly any have barriers all the way across.

It will basically mean the UK will have to bring back ID cards and it'd be mandatory to show them when applying for a job, renting a house and so on. A PITA, and yet more spending the country can't really afford, but not a nightmare.

Maybe we'll solve the free movement of labour issue with Southern Ireland specifically by allowing citizens of Ireland to have dual citizenship and so be able to work on both sides of the border that way. And eventually it'll sort itself out when NI votes to leave the UK and join with SI. Like with Scotland, Brexit has made it a question of when, not if.

However, as I said before, Brexit won't stop black market labour and it won't stop terrorists arriving via the EU then walking across, so our borders aren't any more secure today than last week.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Angua » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:15 am UTC

I hear that people from Northern Ireland are already eligible for dual citizenship, and that requests for it spiked so sharply on Friday that they were running out of forms in some places.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Diemo » Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:21 am UTC

Ireland is pretty broad on who can apply for citizenship, you only need to have a grandparent who was Irish to qualify. And I believe that people born in the North have dual citizenship automatically.

The North is so much closer to joining the South than it was before Brexit. It might be the only good thing to come out of this mess.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby HES » Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:30 am UTC

elasto wrote:Truthfully I'm not sure it does. Loads of countries have land borders with other countries and hardly any have barriers all the way across.

There's a volatile history that doesn't make this just any old border. And I'm pretty sure ID cards and secession count as "*way* more complicated".
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby eSOANEM » Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:27 pm UTC

Diemo wrote:
Ireland is pretty broad on who can apply for citizenship, you only need to have a grandparent who was Irish to qualify. And I believe that people born in the North have dual citizenship automatically.

The North is so much closer to joining the South than it was before Brexit. It might be the only good thing to come out of this mess.


Actually, your grandparent needs to have Irish citizenship and have been born on the island of Ireland. Otherwise you may be able to get the residency requirement waived but its not a guaranteed thing (I know this because I found out post-referendum that one of my grandparents has Irish citizenship but, sadly, was born in the US so doesn't qualify me).

Also people from Northern Ireland don't get citizenship automatically but are pretty much automatically eligible. Time living in the north counts for residency IIRC and being born on the island of Ireland is sufficient to qualify for Irish citizenship by birth.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Liri » Sat Jul 02, 2016 4:34 pm UTC

After watching The Fall, I got interested - again - In R. of Ireland, Norn Iron politics and learned about the dual- or single-citizenship. A resident in Norn Iron can choose to have only R. of Ireland citizenship, which I think is fascinating. Leaving the EU would be sure to complicate that.

You'd think Cameron would have learned his lesson about holding referendums from Alex Salmond.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:45 pm UTC

Farage has resigned.

He says he's achieved his goal of getting a Brexit. We'll have to see if the resignation sticks this time.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Echo244 » Mon Jul 04, 2016 12:54 pm UTC

It probably will this time, now that they've nabbed some Tory MPs who might have the political competence to take over the job and not just be an insulting buffoon.

So, first Boris and now Farage. Is this the end of using political clowns to shape the agenda, just in case 52% of those who turn up vote for what the clowns wanted?
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Diadem » Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:42 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:Farage has resigned.

He says he's achieved his goal of getting a Brexit. We'll have to see if the resignation sticks this time.

The best part is that he's staying on as MEP (member of the European Parliament).

He clearly has no shame.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:44 pm UTC

Farage definitely did not have the support of his party's parliamentary representation, of course...

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Echo244 » Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:04 pm UTC

Do any of the leaders in Westminster, these days?
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Soupspoon » Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:11 pm UTC

Very few. But, before this, another leader could perhaps argue that at least their own problems did not extend to a 100% disaproval rating. :)

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Echo244 » Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:18 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:another leader could perhaps argue that at least their own problems did not extend to a 100% disaproval rating. :)

Yet.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:37 pm UTC

My god, the high level resignations just won't stop.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-36707266

What's next, Capaldi stepping down from Doctor Who?

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby HES » Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:47 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:My god, the high level resignations just won't stop.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-36707266

Thank fuck. He was ruining it.

The rest of the resignations will be inconsequential in the long run.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Mon Jul 04, 2016 2:49 pm UTC

Maybe Farage will be the new Top Gear presenter, now that he's available.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby ThemePark » Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:27 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:Maybe Farage will be the new Top Gear presenter, now that he's available.

Nah, it would have to be Boris. Or John Prescott. Although I suspect the UK ratings would then drop to 0 in an instant.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Mon Jul 04, 2016 3:52 pm UTC

It's disturbing how easily I can see Boris in that role.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby SlyReaper » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:28 am UTC

I'd rather have Boris as a TV show presenter than as someone wielding political power.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Echo244 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:42 am UTC

He's made a couple of documentaries, iirc. But I suspect he's out of luck in that career path; his name no longer has so much weight, and his favoured topics (Rome, Churchill, that sort of thing) are covered, better, by others (both in a more populist-and-never-mind-too-much-about-the-actual-history-bit fashion, a la Dan Snow, and in a more intellectual fashion, a la Mary Beard). Plus his colleagues are trying to fatally wound the BBC so there'll be less funding for that sort of thing.

I think the most graceful thing he could do at this point is quietly retire. So much of what he was was image, and now that's been punctured by the sly knife of Gove, the Leadership is forever out of his reach, he's not seen as suitable for any other role... I suspect a few years of him trying to chuck around his diminishing political weight in the media, offset by the evident lack of having any weight with his colleagues any more, before he chucks in the towel and does something else.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby HES » Tue Jul 05, 2016 12:42 pm UTC

I wonder if we will see him in the next London Mayoral election. Can't see him keeping his seat.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Jul 05, 2016 1:43 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:I know Protestants like to spread the idea that they're the only Christian sect with room for disagreement,

Chum, I'm Catholic.

but the Catholic Church also has the means to negotiate its positions with its followers, or otherwise they would still be selling indulgences up to this day, for example. The church just had a synod discussing family law, among them gay relationships. That it didn't have a great outcome is bad, but the forums are there.

It's definitely a much slower and resistant institution to change, but that's also in part due to its size and hierarchy of membership. They simply did a cost-benefit analysis and losing Africa, several Latin American nations and its outreach efforts in Eastern Europe simply favored the status quo.

Yes, the CHURCH has the means to negotiate its position. It is still a top-down organization. By definition, a Christian who rejects core positions of the Holy See is not a devout Catholic. They may be a good person, but until and unless those core positions evolve, their own position will be non-devout (if not sometimes a mild heresy).

I'm not Catholic, but I'm certain the Catholic church does not mandate or require intolerance towards those who commit sins, even homosexuals. From your statement above, you seem to be using the modern liberal/left definition of the word tolerance, which once meant "willingness to allow the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with" but now means "officially agreeing to something or accepting something as satisfactory" (that is approval).

What I mean is that the Catholic Church mandates and practices fighting against legal rights for homosexuals, and puts out statements about it being a "loss for humanity" when a country legalizes gay marriage. It does not practice tolerance of homosexuals except in the "no longer politically powerful enough to outright imprison homosexuals, so just resorts to tirelessly working to minimize their political rights."

Among other reasons that I'm not a devout Catholic - at least, yet. Once they get back on board with modern science, I'll be happy to tithe again.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby HES » Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:50 pm UTC

I found this amusing: Ken Clarke recorded criticising Tory hopefuls

One wonders whether he really was unaware he was being filmed...
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:58 pm UTC

HES wrote:I found this amusing: Ken Clarke recorded criticising Tory hopefuls

One wonders whether he really was unaware he was being filmed...
Even the most savvy politicians have been caught out, but I'm minded of the West Wing episode where the President says something 'indelicate' about an opponent, I think it was, after one of several different network interviews in a row, obviously without realising that the record-light was still on.

As a disparaging comment that cuts deep to the political divide between him and the commented-about person, it threatens to be a PR problem, until his team resolve that it is a genuine private opinion that he's entitled to hold and say as a private citizen, and it was never intended to be made an official comment (however advantageous it is to say that). Crisis over.

Strange though, one adviser points out, that he only spent so much time on a post-interview informal chat the one time the recording light was accidentally left on... Wily wily Josiah Bartlet, knowing exactly how it would pan out and playing it to his advantage. ;)

From memory. But it's one of the Character Establishing episodes from right near the beginning of the series, IIRC.


(It's not as if Ken has much to lose from saying these things, either...)

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Tue Jul 05, 2016 7:48 pm UTC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36718196

Home Secretary Theresa May has comfortably won the first round of the contest to become the next Conservative leader and UK prime minister.

Mrs May got 165 of the 329 votes cast by Tory MPs. Andrea Leadsom came second with 66 votes. Michael Gove got 48.

Liam Fox, who came last with 16 votes, has been eliminated. Stephen Crabb, who got 34 votes, has decided to drop out.


Looking more and more like a coronation for May. Woohoo.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby sardia » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:24 pm UTC

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the ... -industry/
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:48 pm UTC

And I'm not sure whether May would accept free movement in exchange for passporting privileges. When it comes to non-EU people she brought in very strict immigration rules. She'd obviously love to do the same to EU people too, she's committed to reducing immigration to below 100k per year.

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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Echo244 » Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:33 am UTC

Mutex wrote:Looking more and more like a coronation for May. Woohoo.


Not necessarily. A huge advantage in votes from MPs over her rivals doesn't mean much when the vote is put to the membership. Especially if Andrea Leadsom is financed by that UKIP chap - remember May stood by her leader and campaigned (in a manner so unenthusiastic as to be almost sabotage, but still) for Remain. The "next PM must be a Leave campaigner!" message is probably going to be quite strong amongst the Tory membership. It's not all cut and dried, however the first round vote went.
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Mutex » Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:11 pm UTC

I missed that the final two are put to the entire membership.

May is making lots of very pro-Leave noises now, and she's always been anti-immigration, so I'm not sure how much of an advantage being a leave campaigner will give Leadsom.

elasto
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby elasto » Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:52 pm UTC

Inflation, ho!

The pound hit a fresh 31-year low against the dollar earlier on Wednesday - it has dropped more than 12% since the eve of the Brexit referendum result. Falls against some Asian currencies have been even larger.

Dell declined to give examples of specific product price changes, but the Register reported that the company had already implemented a blanket 10% increase in the costs it charged UK retailers.

The PC-maker did, however, tell the BBC it had delayed the move as long as possible: "In line with the rest of the industry, our component costs are priced in US dollars, and unfortunately, the recent strengthening of the US dollar versus sterling and other currencies in the EMEA [Europe, Middle East and Africa] region, following the UK's decision to leave the European Union, will have a direct impact on the price we sell to our UK customers and partners," a spokeswoman said.

"We understand that this is an uncertain time for many British businesses, and we will continue to work closely with our customers and partners to provide great value products and services."

OnePlus said it would sell its latest handset, the OnePlus 3, for £329 from 11 July in order to protect its "extremely thin margins". That marks a 6.5% rise on its current price of £309.

"While we've held off action for as long as we can, the sharp drop witnessed in the currency markets following the Brexit decision has forced us to re-evaluate the OnePlus 3's pricing in the UK," the company said on its website. "Accessories will not be affected."

Intro 2020 plans to raise its prices by 10-12%.

...

The UK division of lens-maker Sigma has also indicated it will soon act likewise. All its products are made in Aizu, Japan.

"We build in a small buffer, which prevents the necessity of constantly changing our prices with every minor fluctuation of exchange rate, but the dramatic fall in the value of sterling as a result of [the] vote to leave the EU is far too great to be absorbed in this way," said Graham Armitage, general manager of Sigma Imaging UK.

"Our customers, who are predominantly High Street retailers, are buying more [stock]. Whether that is to be in a position to maintain current street prices for longer or to increase their profit is anybody's guess."

The retail consultancy Verdict believes further tech price rises will follow.

"These will come sooner rather than later for those who have not hedged currency far in advance or for whom there is little flexibility in operational costs to mitigate currency fluctuations," said Andrew Hall.

"Retailers cannot be fully expected to absorb the costs incurred by currency volatility in the wake of Brexit. As such, price rises are likely to impact a number of products. For some markets, such as clothing and footwear, this will see a return to inflation after a period of deflation."

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Alder
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Re: British EU referendum in June [update: Leave wins 52% - 48%, Cameron to resign by October]

Postby Alder » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:32 am UTC

elasto, you regularly post information from interesting articles, and I enjoy reading them but...I really wish you'd include links to the source more reliably!
Plasma Man wrote:I might have to get rid of some of my breadbins.

Kulantan wrote:I feel a great disturbance in the Fora, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror and then kinda trailed off to a grumble.


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