Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Tue May 24, 2016 7:11 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Oh, yes, I think that quite qualifies.

I mean, one could excuse initial confusion, perhaps, but to go ahead with everything even AFTER you know it's free...why?

Because he's black?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Coyne » Wed May 25, 2016 5:10 am UTC

sardia wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:Oh, yes, I think that quite qualifies.

I mean, one could excuse initial confusion, perhaps, but to go ahead with everything even AFTER you know it's free...why?

Because he's black?

When I first read it, I wondered if it wasn't a deliberate provocation. It seems very contrived, as if they were looking for any available excuse for an arrest.
In all fairness...

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:05 pm UTC

Oakland loses third police chief in nine days, will operate under civilian control

The Oakland department is currently reeling from allegations that officers were having inappropriate relationships with a teenage sex worker, possibly while she was underage.

[Oakland mayor Libby] Schaaf also said Friday that the department was close to finishing an investigation into an exchange of racist text messages between officers.

The text message inquiry does not involve Figueroa [the most recent ex-chief], according to Schaaf, who said that situation was “not as widespread” as the sexual misconduct scandal.

According to Schaaf, several African American officers sent and received messages that were “wholly inappropriate and not acceptable from anyone who wears the badge of the Oakland Police Department.”

[...]

“As the mayor of Oakland I am here to run a Police Department, not a frat house. Today continues to be a day where we are sharing disturbing information with you,” said Schaaf, adding later that she hoped to “root out what is clearly a toxic, macho, culture” within the city’s police.

The revolving door of chiefs has become the latest source of embarrassment for a department that has remained under federal oversight for 13 years and is now embroiled in a widening sex scandal.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lazar » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:13 pm UTC

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:30 pm UTC

New footage of the fatal police shooting of Alton Sterling in Louisiana shows that a police officer pulled what appears to be a gun out of the 37-year-old’s right pocket after he had been fatally shot.

The 35-second video clip, shot by a witness, is filmed from directly behind Sterling’s body and shows the short struggle between him and Baton Rouge officers Blane Salamoni and Howie Lake.

The clip cuts away just before Sterling, who is struggling on the ground, is shot, but the audio reveals what appear to be two bursts of shots. As the video focuses back on Sterling, he is seen with a large pool of blood on his chest. One officer then appears to reach into Sterling’s pocket and pull out a firearm as Sterling slowly moves his arm towards his head. The video then cuts off.

The video was filmed by Abdullah Muflahi, the owner of the convenience store Sterling was reportedly selling CDs outside of before police were called.

“I was just in shock,” said Muflahi, who is from Yemen and has owned the store since 2010. “They shot him three times, and rolled off of him. Then they shot him three more times.

“That’s his gun they are taking out of his pocket.

“As soon as I finished the video, I put my phone in my pocket. I knew they would take it from me, if they knew I had it. They took my security camera videos. They told me they had a warrant, but didn’t show me one. So I kept this video for myself. Otherwise, what proof do I have?”

Protests broke out in Baton Rouge on Tuesday night after earlier video footage shot by another witness emerged online.

On Wednesday the US Department of Justice said it would investigate the shooting, following a request from local authorities.

Louisiana governor John Bel Edwards described the video footage as “disturbing to say the least” and urged residents to remain calm.

“There should be no doubt in anybody’s mind that this incident is going to be investigated impartially, professionally and thoroughly,” he said.

Transcript of new video
Officer 1: “He’s got a gun! Gun!”

Officer 2: “If you fucking move, I swear to god.”

Officer 1: “He’s going for the gun!”

[At least two shots are heard]

Officer: “Shit!”

Officer: “Get on the ground!”

[Three shots]

Officer to radio: “[Inaudible] shots fired, shots fired.”

Officer: “Fuck!”

[Officer removes gun from pocket]


I feel like nothing really needs to be said...

link

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Lazar » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:02 am UTC

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:19 pm UTC


Look, I'd be wary after I shot someone too. The guy might have had a gun and is probably mad that I shot him.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Drumheller769 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:47 pm UTC

Its clear he was faking it, gotta watch out for a trap.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:27 pm UTC

So, did the proper thing of notifying the cop that he had a licensed gun. Cop asks to see license, he reaches for license, cop shoots him dead.

At least, that seems to be by far the most probable interpretation of this event. There's video of it, and also a witness, and everything's consistent.

I do not see any possible action the victim could have taken to make this event less probable. Should he have hidden the fact that he had a licensed gun? Not gotten a license? Not complied with the cop's order? It's the very definition of a no-win scenario.

The mind boggles at how this apparently required four bullets and no first aid.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:32 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:So, did the proper thing of notifying the cop that he had a licensed gun. Cop asks to see license, he reaches for license, cop shoots him dead.

At least, that seems to be by far the most probable interpretation of this event. There's video of it, and also a witness, and everything's consistent.

I do not see any possible action the victim could have taken to make this event less probable. Should he have hidden the fact that he had a licensed gun? Not gotten a license? Not complied with the cop's order? It's the very definition of a no-win scenario.

The mind boggles at how this apparently required four bullets and no first aid.

He could wear a disguise. And bring along a token white guy.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:34 pm UTC

Maybe if we made it legal to take pre-emptive action against demographics likely to murder someone.

Like, say, the demographic that wears blue. I wonder what hubbub such a legal proposal would stir.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Dauric » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:36 pm UTC

sardia wrote:And bring along a token white guy.


... Clearly an untapped market.

"Going in to a Cop-patrolled part of town? Call 'Dial-A-White-Guy' and we'll deliver a token white guy to be your friend in the most dangerous parts of town..."
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Jul 07, 2016 6:51 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Maybe if we made it legal to take pre-emptive action against demographics likely to murder someone.

Like, say, the demographic that wears blue. I wonder what hubbub such a legal proposal would stir.

You're missing a key component of any lobbying effort, money. Have the NRA jump on the market of preemptive self defense against blue. It's an underserved consumer base. After the population is increasingly armed, have the firearms industry upgrade the police forces weapons. Bam, now you're supplying both sides of the conflict. Double win.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:00 pm UTC

Oh, I don't expect any such law to ever be passed, of course. Merely taking a stab at the point that the police kill a lot more citizens than vice versa, and they are exceedingly quick to point out possible danger as a reason for pre-emptive violence. What's good for the goose is good for the gander and all that.

I suspect that police are already all about upgrading weaponry at every turn. Not a great deal of potential gain there, they're already running tanks, sometimes. What are we going to do, give them aircraft carriers?

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:06 pm UTC

Fair point. If you ever are in a meeting with gun rights group, remind them that black people have the second amendment as well. That seems to get lost whenever they argue gun control.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby elasto » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:29 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:So, did the proper thing of notifying the cop that he had a licensed gun. Cop asks to see license, he reaches for license, cop shoots him dead.

At least, that seems to be by far the most probable interpretation of this event. There's video of it, and also a witness, and everything's consistent.

I do not see any possible action the victim could have taken to make this event less probable. Should he have hidden the fact that he had a licensed gun? Not gotten a license? Not complied with the cop's order? It's the very definition of a no-win scenario.

The mind boggles at how this apparently required four bullets and no first aid.

Not only that, but a four year-old girl was in the back seat of the car. Either the officer never noticed her, which is inexcusable - or he saw her but fired into the car anyway, which is even more inexcusable.

The only 'good' thing about this case is I think it's impossible the officer won't get convicted of murder - but only because his actions were so monumentally inappropriate.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:32 pm UTC

Hang out in one sometime. That's not so much news as it is "routine thing upon which everyone agrees".

Right next to the unfortunate derailment of slamming whatever leftist is in the news, which almost invariably happens. Every. Freaking. Time. Especially around election season. *sigh*

Gun groups are a bit like 'murricans with Congress. They usually believe that THEIR cops, to include any friends they have that are one, are good sorts, but that the group overall is not to be trusted, particularly federal sorts. That's why gun lingo includes perjorative slang like "cop leg". Minorities of any stripe joining them is seen as worthy of celebration, and they have many such speakers at events, which are invariably ignored by the media.

They ain't gonna be lining up to defend this cop, if that's what you're thinking. They will be appalled, and see him as yet another example of why the government is incompetent, and cannot be trusted to defend them. Not so different from minority groups at all.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Prefanity » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:35 pm UTC

elasto wrote:The only 'good' thing about this case is I think it's impossible the officer won't get convicted of murder - but only because his actions were so monumentally inappropriate.


At this point, I'd bet good money that he'll be acquitted.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:43 pm UTC

Prefanity wrote:
elasto wrote:The only 'good' thing about this case is I think it's impossible the officer won't get convicted of murder - but only because his actions were so monumentally inappropriate.


At this point, I'd bet good money that he'll be acquitted.

Alternately, this could become a union issue. They dump him into an office only position until the whole thing blows over. When this happened last time, the town fired the officer, but months later, the union appeal board reinstated the cop because the town wasn't"fair"to the officer.

The last solution is the union sacrifices him to preserve their authority over the cops who haven't been caught yet.

The best you can hope for is a FBI investigation into reforms. For some reasons, the politicians never lose their jobs for police failures.

Tyndmyr, there may be sympathy, but it's not evident in the media. It could be anecdotal or media bias as the cause. Seems like a lost opportunity if it's the media but I think it's a lack of desire to speak against Urban violence.
Last edited by sardia on Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:51 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:45 pm UTC

sardia wrote: For some reasons, the politicians never lose their jobs for police failures.


Oh, god no.

If it's determined to be a systemic failure, such as "we didn't train them NOT to murder random people", this will result in a collective shrug, and the equivalent of "oopsie", with nobody actually being punished, and a token effort at some new training program.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:55 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
sardia wrote: For some reasons, the politicians never lose their jobs for police failures.


Oh, god no.

If it's determined to be a systemic failure, such as "we didn't train them NOT to murder random people", this will result in a collective shrug, and the equivalent of "oopsie", with nobody actually being punished, and a token effort at some new training program.

Black lives matters needs to organize voting more. It's much easier to vote them out in a primary.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:57 pm UTC

Failed pretty hard in Baltimore. Given our demographics compared to the rest of the US, and recent history, I'm not overly sanguine about the results elsewhere.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby slinches » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:24 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:So, did the proper thing of notifying the cop that he had a licensed gun. Cop asks to see license, he reaches for license, cop shoots him dead.

At least, that seems to be by far the most probable interpretation of this event. There's video of it, and also a witness, and everything's consistent.

I do not see any possible action the victim could have taken to make this event less probable. Should he have hidden the fact that he had a licensed gun? Not gotten a license? Not complied with the cop's order? It's the very definition of a no-win scenario.

The mind boggles at how this apparently required four bullets and no first aid.

I'd rather not watch the full video since it shows someone bleeding to death, but are the interactions before the officer pulled his gun shown or only what happened after the shots were fired? You seem to indicate the officer fired without any provocative action by the victim, which seems unlikely since it would just be a straight out murder at that point. It is a possibility, but I think it is more likely to be a case of fumbling communication (on both sides) during a stop which rapidly escalated into a tragic mistake. Although, I don't have any evidence to back that opinion up yet. I'd gladly watch a segment of the video up until the shots were fired to find out, if anyone has a link to that.

By the way, if anyone here carries in their vehicle, it's always a good idea to keep your hands firmly on the wheel and not move during a traffic stop and calmly and courteously disclose that you have a weapon before doing anything else. Then wait for instruction or ask how to proceed and repeat back what you are about to do before making any movements. Everything else can wait until the weapon is safely stowed or the officer takes temporary custody.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:57 am UTC

slinches wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:So, did the proper thing of notifying the cop that he had a licensed gun. Cop asks to see license, he reaches for license, cop shoots him dead.

At least, that seems to be by far the most probable interpretation of this event. There's video of it, and also a witness, and everything's consistent.

I do not see any possible action the victim could have taken to make this event less probable. Should he have hidden the fact that he had a licensed gun? Not gotten a license? Not complied with the cop's order? It's the very definition of a no-win scenario.

The mind boggles at how this apparently required four bullets and no first aid.

I'd rather not watch the full video since it shows someone bleeding to death, but are the interactions before the officer pulled his gun shown or only what happened after the shots were fired? You seem to indicate the officer fired without any provocative action by the victim, which seems unlikely since it would just be a straight out murder at that point. It is a possibility, but I think it is more likely to be a case of fumbling communication (on both sides) during a stop which rapidly escalated into a tragic mistake. Although, I don't have any evidence to back that opinion up yet. I'd gladly watch a segment of the video up until the shots were fired to find out, if anyone has a link to that.

By the way, if anyone here carries in their vehicle, it's always a good idea to keep your hands firmly on the wheel and not move during a traffic stop and calmly and courteously disclose that you have a weapon before doing anything else. Then wait for instruction or ask how to proceed and repeat back what you are about to do before making any movements. Everything else can wait until the weapon is safely stowed or the officer takes temporary custody.

Better plan, take away the cop's guns. Plenty of police get by without any guns at all, and really they are just using them as a substitute for actual police training. When in doubt, shoot first and plant evidence/say suspicious behavior.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby pogrmman » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:40 am UTC

No matter what you think of the police, this certainly isn't the proper way to respond to it. Murdering people is never the solution to anything.

I do agree that in many cases, police don't need guns. Also, I think more extensive police training is needed. Police officers should be setting good examples for behavior for the rest of the community when performing their duties. Being rude and mean and murdering people doesn't exactly do that.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:57 am UTC

When all non-violent means to address grievances (overt police violence) have failed, the next step is violence. The fundamental failing here, is that there are not non-violent means to address very legitimate grievances of a large subset of the population of the USA.

Obviously the actions of the snipers need to be and should be punished. But they are understandable. The only rational solution to this, is to introduce functional non-violent means by which the population can address their grievances. Anything else will result in more violence.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Zamfir » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:37 am UTC

BattleMoose, even if someone were to consider violence as a defensible next step, that doesn't immediately scale up to evey mind of violence. If someone wants to resort to violence, they have a strong duty to be careful about that. Not just shoot people who were only told to watch a protest.

A ’next step’ into violence would be to beat up policemen who were involved in shooting, or destroy some replaceable property of theirs. It's still debatable if that kind of vigilante justice is OK, but it's many steps yet from there to randomly shooting cops.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby BattleMoose » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:17 am UTC

I am certainly not defending their actions or claiming that their actions are justified.

Just that this same story has played out many different times in many different ways throughout history. Disenfranchised people resort to violence. The solution is to enfranchise them. More than that, this outcome was in many ways very predictable.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:20 pm UTC

Let's be clear here: violence is not really the "next step", it was the very first step, and it was taken, and has repeatedly continued to be taken, by police.

And a lot of those other steps have already been taken, just by different people than these shooters.

Sure, it's tragic on a personal level for the families and friends of the dead cops, and it's tragic on a national level for the "war on cops" myth it will bolster, but the consistent refusal of cops everywhere to condemn the violence committed by their "brothers in blue" makes it awfully hard for me to feel particularly broken up about the fact of some cops getting killed.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:28 pm UTC


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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:56 pm UTC

pogrmman wrote:No matter what you think of the police, this certainly isn't the proper way to respond to it. Murdering people is never the solution to anything.


It's not *right*. But it's kind of inevitable when the problem doesn't get fixed the right way. If you've ever watched action movies, think back on how many of them star a person who tries over and over again to be peaceable, but keeps getting treated injustly(and often violently), until he goes on a murder rampage. Which we, the audience, cheer, because the previous abuses have justified this reaction.

If you consider the situation from the perspective of the folks who keep getting murdered, it's not particularly hard to see why these things happen.

Zamfir wrote:BattleMoose, even if someone were to consider violence as a defensible next step, that doesn't immediately scale up to evey mind of violence. If someone wants to resort to violence, they have a strong duty to be careful about that. Not just shoot people who were only told to watch a protest.

A ’next step’ into violence would be to beat up policemen who were involved in shooting, or destroy some replaceable property of theirs. It's still debatable if that kind of vigilante justice is OK, but it's many steps yet from there to randomly shooting cops.


Nobody is saying that this is what should happen. Merely that it's an inevitable result of prior abuses.

And slowly escalating violence is probably a terrible strategy. That would likely only serve as an excuse for further abuses.

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Diadem » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:14 pm UTC

I don't know if violence against repressing groups is inevitable, but it is necessary if one desires change above a glacial pace. There are a few examples in history of successful non-violent revolutions, but they are very rare and only happen in exceptional circumstances. Even if they do happen, the non-violent revolution is only possible because of the threat of a violent one.

Shooting random officers is, I agree with Zamfir here, certainly the wrong kind of violence. But some kind of retaliation against abusive cops is necessary if you ever want to change the system in a meaningful way. Violence is the only language bullies understand.
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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Chen » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:49 pm UTC

So regarding the one sniper suspect who was killed in a standoff this morning:

He said the gunman had told a negotiator that he was "upset about Black Lives Matter [protest movement], he said he was upset about the recent police shootings. The suspect said he was upset at white people. The suspect stated that he wanted to kill white people, especially white officers.

Mr Brown added: "He said he was not affiliated with any groups, and he did this alone."


Also seems the suspect was killed by an explosive placed by a bomb robot. Can't say I've ever heard of that being used in that manner before.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36745862

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Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby HES » Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:52 pm UTC

Was he killed by the explosives, or were the explosives used in the operation that killed him? It's not clear from the article, and blowing people up seems a bit beyond the police's remit.
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