Luke Cage

[Angua]

Has anyone else started watching Luke Cage yet? I'm just finishing up episode 10 at the moment and it's been pretty excellent imo. I'd be interested to hear what other people think about it though.

[Jesse]

I'm just finishing Episode 11. I'll be back once I'm done.

For now though, I love it.

[Jesse]

SPOILERS AHOY

Spoiler:

I thought it was a fantastic show. I particularly liked how it built a strong cast to support Luke Cage, who's stoic nature could have otherwise bogged down the show.

I'm not particularly familiar with Harlem, as a place, but I enjoyed it as the main focus of the show. One worry I had was that it's hard to feel tension around an invulnerable superhero, but they covered that quite well with making me initially care about Harlem, then about the people around him.

I've got quite a few thoughts about the show that I'm struggling to make coherent right now, but it feels like a show that could just as easily have not been part of the Marvel universe, or an existing property at all. The tension between the community & the police, people wearing the bullethole hoodies, all felt incredibly strong and well-executed. I'm really interested to seeing how other people respond to this.

[Angua]

I have finally finished it.

Spoiler:

I thought it was pretty well done, and it was good that it went with its theme (black community) and ran with it. I am surprised no one tried to poison him, though with the immortality thing they decided to go with at the end, I wonder what the effects would have been?

SPOILERS AHOY

Spoiler:

I've got quite a few thoughts about the show that I'm struggling to make coherent right now, but it feels like a show that could just as easily have not been part of the Marvel universe, or an existing property at all. The tension between the community & the police, people wearing the bullethole hoodies, all felt incredibly strong and well-executed. I'm really interested to seeing how other people respond to this.

Spoiler:

I mean, this is kind of the way Marvel has been trying to do the superhero stuff - have them around as an excuse to talk about other, broader themes. This seemed to be the most focussed on that sort of thing though (Agent Carter had an underlying feminism post-war thing, and Jessica Jones had the PTSD rape survivor thing, but I feel this really built the story around it).

I really liked it, and am interested in seeing how it's received by the wider US audience.

[Jesse]

Spoiler:

Also, the finale involving one major villain walking out of prison while the innocent black man goes to jail only added to the show's sense of realism.

[natraj]

I am only a few episodes in but so far I am enjoying it a lot. I feel like its writing quality is incredibly up and down, though, and it feels like its writers do not have enough faith in their own writing ability, or enough faith in their audience, or both. For example, its very opening scene of the series was so fantastic, I thought. It gave so much depth and characterization -- to its neighborhood, to its location, to the characters; for audiences totally unfamiliar with black American culture it contextualized the important social/cultural role its location has in black community; it placed its characters within that community richly and well.

And then later scenes through that episode and the next just kept beating everyone over the head with the exposition hammer like "this place is important to the community! this person is a community pillar! here is why!" and it is like, actually you didn't need to do that, you laid that all out for us in atmosphere so well without needing to sledgehammer it home. And there have been so many things like that where a scene is done with excellent depth and nuance, and then two scenes later the writers will be like IN CASE YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT HERE IS A DUMPTRUCK OF EXPOSITION.

and like c'mon just have some faith in either your writing skills or your audience. cuz when it's good it's so good but then at other times I'm just groaning.

Overall though I am loving it a lot so far. The characters are great and I enjoy a superhero show being so unapologetically black.

[SlyReaper]

Just a couple of minutes into the first episode and I'm lost already. A bunch of guys in a barber shop talking about... something? Sports, I think? I can understand maybe 20% of what they're saying. Do you have to be American to understand it? Are we supposed to understand it?

Like "Oakley and new went hard on the pain". "King James is the truth... bronka ball". Wut? What does this mean?!?

[Angua]

I think most of the sport they talk about is basketball. Though there's definitely baseball at some point.

However, I was not sure. I mainly took it as a group of guys talking about their favourite sports heroes +/- friendly rivalry, and tuned out accordingly. I'm used to not understanding that sort of conversation.

[Zohar]

We're two episodes in (I find it surprising how easily people binge watch these shows, it's a lot harder for me). I definitely feel lost sometimes, especially in the first scene, though that may be because I'm also not American/native English speaker.

I wish there was a bit more explanation what happened between the end of Jessica Jones and the start of this show - it may come, but for now it's kind of confusing. Like, how did we get here from there?

Anyway, I'm enjoying it for now, and I'm curious to see where things go. It seems slightly better paced than the other Netflix superhero shows, but we'll see if that remains true...

[Angua]

As far as I remember, Luke just sort of left during Jessica Jones. I guess he went to go live in Harlem and that's where they pick up.

I don't know how true to life it is, but in the netflix mcu shows Hells Kitchen and Harlem seem to be pretty cut off from the rest of new York. The whole thing seems pretty insular in that regard. Which means you don't need much explanation of where we are in relation to Hells Kitchen as the two communities don't really seem to interact.

[Zohar]

They're about 1.5 hour's walk apart, but obviously very different culturally in the real world. Though I don't think they gave Jessica Jones a placement other than "New York City".

I'm mostly talking about jail stuff mentioned very early on (I assume that will get clarified later).

[plytho]

I'm also two episodes in and I think the jail stuff predates Jessica Jones.

[Angua]

I will decline to comment I guess on that bit.

Thoughts about greater implications on the Marvel universe:

Spoiler:

Will this Judas gun hurt the Hulk? Captain America isn't bullet proof (though he's certainly super healing), but if this explodes inside you it could do him some serious damage. I wonder if it can take down Tony's armour. Would it hurt an Asgardian???

So many questions

Thoughts about Luke Cage halloween costume (not that spoilery):

Spoiler:

So, I was thinking that I have a grey hoodie that already has holes in it (so I could pull off bullet holes), however, as a non-black woman it wouldn't be appropriate. But from that fleeting thought I got to thinking how sad it is that black young men (esp in America) might not feel safe dressing up in kind to go wandering on a street like that.
So depressing.

[The Great Hippo]

I don't have anywhere near enough knowledge to deconstruct or analyze its themes, but I was struck right away by how directly it seemed to just plunge right into a black-centered narrative. I was expecting it to be sanitized, but it didn't feel that way at all; it felt like it was taking a lot of risks. I suspect that's a good thing? I hope that's a good thing.

And there have been so many things like that where a scene is done with excellent depth and nuance, and then two scenes later the writers will be like IN CASE YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT HERE IS A DUMPTRUCK OF EXPOSITION.

Yeah, I kind of got whiplash more than once with how quickly the quality of the writing flipped from amazingly good to just info-dumps. The barber shop scene was fantastic; it gives us a strong sense of who these characters are. Then, the scene in the basement -- with the washing machine -- starts strong, demonstrating Luke's strength (using it to recover a phone-number; our first experience with his powers is him using them privately, with someone he trusts, to overcome a mild inconvenience. The only way I imagine it could have been better is if he stopped to look up the stairs, first, to make sure no one else was peeking). And Pop saying how he loves it when Luke does stuff like that; this is great writing!

Then... Out of no where, we get this clunky exposition: 'You think I wanted this? I was shoved inside of a tank like some sort of exotic fish -- experimented on. Came out with... special abilities.' -- and I was just left super-confused. Did the writers go on break or something? That doesn't sound like something you say to someone who you trust; it doesn't sound like someone you've talked to about this before. It sounds like the intro-trailer for a comic book.

This happened a number of times -- scene with fantastic writing, then, suddenly... bam! Clunky and expository.

Also (spoiler for third episode):

Spoiler:

I really wish they hadn't killed Pop. I realize killing the mentor character is typical for stories like these, but it gets old after a while -- and I think you could have gotten a tremendous amount of mileage out of having Pop get wounded, end up in a hospital -- and have everything flow from Luke Cage trying to keep the barber shop in the green while Pop struggled with medical bills. Gives Luke his motivation, and provides a cool mentor character for Luke to call on for advice.

Also (spoiler for episode 6, 7, and 8):

Spoiler:

I liked Claire a lot, but her entrance in this series was just so... clunky. Like, literally -- a few hours before Luke needs medical help (because Scarfe is bleeding out in his barber shop), he meets up with Claire. Then, when he's tempted to kill the detective, Claire -- who, again, he just hooked up with -- is there to talk him down. Then, in the episode 8, he's actually shot -- good thing he met Claire! And good thing she happens to be an ex-nurse who knows an EMT who can keep secrets, and has access to an ambulance! And also knows some sort of empty medical facility!

Rather than wedging in all of these things, I feel like she should have had some sort of earlier storyline to explain her presence -- and her resources -- and her connection to Luke. Like, maybe Mariah wasn't just setting up community centers; she was setting up a clinic in Harlem, too. And Claire is involved in it! She's even got a set of keys and everything -- bam! Now we have a reason for her to be there, something that ties her to the plot, and an explanation as to where she gets the resources to help Cage from.

I'm still pushing through some episodes, but -- other than the patches of confusing/clunky writing, I am liking it so far.

[Tyndmyr]

Just a couple of minutes into the first episode and I'm lost already. A bunch of guys in a barber shop talking about... something? Sports, I think? I can understand maybe 20% of what they're saying. Do you have to be American to understand it? Are we supposed to understand it?

Like "Oakley and new went hard on the pain". "King James is the truth... bronka ball". Wut? What does this mean?!?

You don't really need to be able to follow the nuances of sports. That's really just for showing relationships and establishing stuff. As long as you're getting "these folks are friendly, this guy is touchy, this is a social space", you're picking up the important bits.

That said, I haven't watched it all yet either. I'm bad at binge watching, but what I've seen so far has been good.

[Zohar]

You don't really need to be able to follow the nuances of sports. That's really just for showing relationships and establishing stuff. As long as you're getting "these folks are friendly, this guy is touchy, this is a social space", you're picking up the important bits.

That's easy enough for an American (and possibly most native English speakers) to figure out - the culture referenced is recognizable, the type of speech is obvious. For people who aren't as familiar, though, it becomes frustrating - we don't know we're not supposed to understand, or that those aren't relevant plot points. It just seems confusing.

Which is fine! It's OK if a show is a bit more challenging to watch, and a show doesn't have to cater to every audience in order to be good.

[The Great Hippo]

That's easy enough for an American (and possibly most native English speakers) to figure out - the culture referenced is recognizable, the type of speech is obvious. For people who aren't as familiar, though, it becomes frustrating - we don't know we're not supposed to understand, or that those aren't relevant plot points. It just seems confusing.

To be fair, I'm an American and I had maybe a vague notion they were talking about sports? I only knew for certain once a character mentioned something about being frustrated with the Knicks, which is a name I recognized as sports-related. I certainly didn't have any idea what they were talking about, but I still managed to interpret the basic thrust of the scene through stuff like facial expressions, tone, physical interactions, etc. Not knowing what they were talking about didn't bother me very much.

But your mileage may vary; I think I can understand someone who found that to be frustrating!

[plytho]

I've finished watching now, here are my thoughts:

Full season spoilers ahead:

Spoiler:

I really enjoyed the show and I felt it worked well until the death of Cottonmouth.
He was a great character, strongly connected to the neighborhood and kind of likeable. I was far less interested in Diamondback. His motivations seemed very weak and he came across as evil for the point of evil. Oh, he's Luke's brother? Why am I supposed to care about that? He's supposed to be behind every bad thing to ever happen to Luke Cage? That seems like a massive overreaction to childhood resentment.

I also had trouble with the portrayal of the 'public opinion'. I couldn't really tell what people thought of Luke Cage. One moment they're rallying against him, the next moment everyone supports him with bullethole hoodies.

The final battle has Mariah saying 'this is a battle for the soul of Harlem'. But who is she supposed to be supporting? Nobody knows who Diamondback is. So as far as the public is concerned, this is a battle between Luke Cage and 'some other superstrong dude'. Mariah has just held a rally against Luke Cage, so she's supporting 'other dude'?

Besides these points I really enjoyed the show.

[Tyndmyr]

You don't really need to be able to follow the nuances of sports. That's really just for showing relationships and establishing stuff. As long as you're getting "these folks are friendly, this guy is touchy, this is a social space", you're picking up the important bits.

That's easy enough for an American (and possibly most native English speakers) to figure out - the culture referenced is recognizable, the type of speech is obvious. For people who aren't as familiar, though, it becomes frustrating - we don't know we're not supposed to understand, or that those aren't relevant plot points. It just seems confusing.

Which is fine! It's OK if a show is a bit more challenging to watch, and a show doesn't have to show a basic level of decency and respect to every audience in order to be good.

Honestly, I usually find sports chatter to be mostly confusing and/or boring in most movies. It's not a subculture I relate with very much. Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be a primary theme, but yeah, I get how it'd be increasingly difficult as you get further from those cultural standards.

It's odd, the US has *enough* sports culture that plenty of people seem to think it's nigh universal, but some subcultures(such as geek, etc), not knowing sports is basically expected.

[Diadem]

I enjoyed this show a lot. Though I definitely felt like I was missing out on some things, not knowing Harlem.

I do think the show suffered from the same flaw that nearly all shows suffer from: An overcomplicated plot, with too many twists.

Spoiler:

I definitely think they should have kept the first season focused on Cottonmouth and Mariah as the big bads. There was plenty of plot left with those two when they suddenly switched focus to Diamondback. They could have kept Diamondback as the mysterious supplier / ally of Cottonmouth, and only focused on him in the second season. Of course that route would have been very cliche. So I applaud the show's makers for trying something a bit more original, but I think it didn't really work out.

Cottonmouth's death came out of nowhere. It was a nice twist, but Mariah went from "I love my cousin despite all his flaws" to murderous rage in 5 seconds flat, without any prior foreshadowing, and the reason for her rage was never explored or mentioned again. That was just weak. Tension between them should have been built up more carefully, with at least some foreshadowing on the abuse angle. And some exploration of it afterwards. Shades overheard them. How is he going to use that information? Does he try to use Mariah's past against her, or does it make him more sympathetic towards her?

And making Diamondback Luke's halfbrother was just deeply annoying. Why does every villain have to have a deep personal connection with the hero? It's the most hackneyed plot device ever.

One final thing: Did anybody else find the show too dark at times? I mean literally dark. There were scenes that went on for minutes where the entire screen was just pretty much black, and I couldn't make out anything of what was happening.

I realize that I pretty much wrote down only negative things. Yet I still liked this show a lot. It's just harder to say exactly what I liked then exactly what I disliked.

[maybeagnostic]

I am halfway through the show and I like it a lot so far but its starting to lose steam a little. I think it might be the lack of a powerful villian or credible threat- so far Luke Cage seems to regard his opposition with more annoyance than real concern.

The other thing that I was really disappointed by so far is the backstory for Shades.

Spoiler:

Initially he got built up as someone really dangerous and special but the more we find out about him, the more perplexed I am about why Luke Cage fears him. He seems to have been one of the prisoners working for the corrupt officer in Seagate, not particularly evil or exceptionally dangerous especially when compared to the officer himself. With a friend and weapons he could barely take on Luke before he gained his powers and he only attacked him when ordered to do so.

P.S.

One final thing: Did anybody else find the show too dark at times? I mean literally dark. There were scenes that went on for minutes where the entire screen was just pretty much black, and I couldn't make out anything of what was happening.

8 episodes in, I've never had this problem so far. It is definitely something I noticed in Daredevil S1 but it seemed appropriate and intentional then.

[plytho]

I am halfway through the show and I like it a lot so far but its starting to lose steam a little. I think it might be the lack of a powerful villian or credible threat- so far Luke Cage seems to regard his opposition with more annoyance than real concern.

The other thing that I was really disappointed by so far is the backstory for Shades.

Spoiler:

Initially he got built up as someone really dangerous and special but the more we find out about him, the more perplexed I am about why Luke Cage fears him. He seems to have been one of the prisoners working for the corrupt officer in Seagate, not particularly evil or exceptionally dangerous especially when compared to the officer himself. With a friend and weapons he could barely take on Luke before he gained his powers and he only attacked him when ordered to do so.

Spoiler:

I think Luke Cage is afraid because Shades knows his true identity. Luke is an escapee, on the run from the law. I get what you mean though. After the first prison flashback I was expecting something more spectacular from Shades.

P.S.

One final thing: Did anybody else find the show too dark at times? I mean literally dark. There were scenes that went on for minutes where the entire screen was just pretty much black, and I couldn't make out anything of what was happening.

8 episodes in, I've never had this problem so far. It is definitely something I noticed in Daredevil S1 but it seemed appropriate and intentional then.

I didn't really notice this either.

[The Great Hippo]

Spoiler:

I definitely think they should have kept the first season focused on Cottonmouth and Mariah as the big bads. There was plenty of plot left with those two when they suddenly switched focus to Diamondback. They could have kept Diamondback as the mysterious supplier / ally of Cottonmouth, and only focused on him in the second season. Of course that route would have been very cliche. So I applaud the show's makers for trying something a bit more original, but I think it didn't really work out.

Cottonmouth's death came out of nowhere. It was a nice twist, but Mariah went from "I love my cousin despite all his flaws" to murderous rage in 5 seconds flat, without any prior foreshadowing, and the reason for her rage was never explored or mentioned again. That was just weak. Tension between them should have been built up more carefully, with at least some foreshadowing on the abuse angle. And some exploration of it afterwards. Shades overheard them. How is he going to use that information? Does he try to use Mariah's past against her, or does it make him more sympathetic towards her?

And making Diamondback Luke's halfbrother was just deeply annoying. Why does every villain have to have a deep personal connection with the hero? It's the most hackneyed plot device ever.

Spoilers for second half of series.

Spoiler:

I agree that Diamondback was a huge letdown after Cottonmouth; I think the series kind of meandered after that (I agree with plytho's point about the weird public opinion thing, and the feeling that the last battle doesn't have much invested in it anymore).

But I actually thought Cottonmouth's death was both a great twist and actually pretty credible; particularly with how much shock and regret she expresses in the aftermath. Having someone close to you (arguably the person who's closest to you, in fact) defend someone who violated you (and they know they violated you) is such an extraordinary breech of trust; on top of that, the escalation of events was making Mariah increasingly tense (Cottonmouth had just killed a police officer, Luke Cage had just threatened to bring her down). It made total sense to me when she snapped like that; in fact, that whole scene is probably my favorite bit in the whole series.

Particularly because as fucked up as it is, you can actually see why Cottonmouth defended this guy: He was the only person who ever stuck up for Cottonmouth; the closest thing he had to a father. Of course he's going to defend the SOB, and of course Mariah is going to go nuclear when he does.

It totally blindsided me, but it also felt like it was earned. I was really hoping after this scene, Mariah would become Cage's primary antagonist, but then Diamondback showed up and things got increasingly ridiculous. But man, that scene where she starts screaming -- and she runs downstairs, still screaming, to beat him to death -- my jaw just kind of dropped.

I liked this series, but it felt like it reached its peak near the middle and got increasingly silly as things went on.

[Diadem]

Spoiler:

I definitely think they should have kept the first season focused on Cottonmouth and Mariah as the big bads. There was plenty of plot left with those two when they suddenly switched focus to Diamondback. They could have kept Diamondback as the mysterious supplier / ally of Cottonmouth, and only focused on him in the second season. Of course that route would have been very cliche. So I applaud the show's makers for trying something a bit more original, but I think it didn't really work out.

Cottonmouth's death came out of nowhere. It was a nice twist, but Mariah went from "I love my cousin despite all his flaws" to murderous rage in 5 seconds flat, without any prior foreshadowing, and the reason for her rage was never explored or mentioned again. That was just weak. Tension between them should have been built up more carefully, with at least some foreshadowing on the abuse angle. And some exploration of it afterwards. Shades overheard them. How is he going to use that information? Does he try to use Mariah's past against her, or does it make him more sympathetic towards her?

And making Diamondback Luke's halfbrother was just deeply annoying. Why does every villain have to have a deep personal connection with the hero? It's the most hackneyed plot device ever.

Spoilers for second half of series.

Spoiler:

I agree that Diamondback was a huge letdown after Cottonmouth; I think the series kind of meandered after that (I agree with plytho's point about the weird public opinion thing, and the feeling that the last battle doesn't have much invested in it anymore).

But I actually thought Cottonmouth's death was both a great twist and actually pretty credible; particularly with how much shock and regret she expresses in the aftermath. Having someone close to you (arguably the person who's closest to you, in fact) defend someone who violated you (and they know they violated you) is such an extraordinary breech of trust; on top of that, the escalation of events was making Mariah increasingly tense (Cottonmouth had just killed a police officer, Luke Cage had just threatened to bring her down). It made total sense to me when she snapped like that; in fact, that whole scene is probably my favorite bit in the whole series.

Particularly because as fucked up as it is, you can actually see why Cottonmouth defended this guy: He was the only person who ever stuck up for Cottonmouth; the closest thing he had to a father. Of course he's going to defend the SOB, and of course Mariah is going to go nuclear when he does.

It totally blindsided me, but it also felt like it was earned. I was really hoping after this scene, Mariah would become Cage's primary antagonist, but then Diamondback showed up and things got increasingly ridiculous. But man, that scene where she starts screaming -- and she runs downstairs, still screaming, to beat him to death -- my jaw just kind of dropped.

I liked this series, but it felt like it reached its peak near the middle and got increasingly silly as things went on.

Same spoiler warning as above (which also applies to my original post).

Spoiler:

I don't disagree that the scene was powerful. But writing is like architecture in that regard. A beautiful house without a good foundation is still going to be beautiful, it just isn't going to be beautiful for long.

There was no foreshadowing of the scene at all. That is not necessarily bad, but in general it's good to have some build-up. In this case I think it would have been really nice to introduce the central conflict played out in that scene earlier, and get individual perspectives from both Mariah and Cottonmouth on their uncle first.

But the worst sin was that there was absolutely no follow-up. Misty is supposed to be a highly trained and skilled detective, but she never wondered about Mariah's motive. Shades overheard them, but he never did anything with that information. Diamondback is angry that Cottonmouth was killed, but he never asks why. And Mariah herself certainly seems upset about what she did to her nephew, but she too never references or thinks about the abuse again either.

As for the scene being credible. Perhaps. Though it seems rather unlikely that this would be the first time they would ever talk about that subject. But also, even if it is credible, so what? It would be very credible to have James Bond crash and die during car chase scene, or to have him run over a mother with stroller. But it would be bad television.

[OP Tipping]

I'm only just watching LC now. I kind of missed a lot of shows: systematically catching up on all the MCU TV series.

What is the deal with Alfre Woodard playing two different characters in the MCU? I can tolerate different actors playing one character. Shit happens, negotiations fall through. It's jarring, kind of cheap, for one actor to play two characters in a franchise.

[SecondTalon]

There have been 150 actors who have played two or more roles, though most of them were background parts.

Notable ones are Peter Quill's mother being in the first Captajn America, and Odin's dad being an Irish mobster in Daredevil.

This is probably the most prominent one. And you could maybe even argue that it's not a recast - she just wanted to fuck with Stark for some reason.

[Chen]

This is probably the most prominent one. And you could maybe even argue that it's not a recast - she just wanted to fuck with Stark for some reason.

No they're both different named characters though according to the MCU wiki. Just one of those random casting decisions no deeper meaning or anything there.