Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D6)

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bessie
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby bessie » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:58 am UTC

A lot has happened since my last post. Updated setup speculation,12 players, initial distribution:

Faction 1: Black Ajah
Black/White, Alviarin Freidhen, possible Godfather, cops as White. Recruiter, controls Myddralls.
Power speculation: D1 recruit, for game mechanics (ensure game doesn’t end D1). Alternate recruit/night kill. Can recruit any other player in the game.

Faction 2: Suian Supporters
Blue, Suian Sanche, SirGabriel. Recruiter, alternate night or limited.
Blue, Leane Sharif, ahippo.
Power speculation: Recruit on Faction 3 or unaligned Red will fail. Can be secretly recruited by Faction 1. Can false recruit Faction 1.

Faction 3: Elaida Supporters
Red, Elaida a’Roihan, Recruiter.
Red, (unknown).
Power speculation: Recruit on Faction 2 or unaligned Blue will fail. Can be secretly recruited by Faction 1. Can false recruit Faction 1.

Unaligned until recruited:
Red
Blue
Green
Yellow
White
Brown, Diemo (tracker/watcher)
Grey, Matt (double voter)


I've been struggling with reads this game, maybe because of all the potentially unaligned players. So instead of a town-scum list, here's my least-scummy to most-scummy list.

Sabrar - I just don’t have time to go through all of Sabrar’s content right now. I will see if I can get to it before deadline, but he’s not on my lynch list today.
Sabrar wrote:He is basically voting for a character who is as close to an Innocent Child as anyone can be without actual mod-reveal.
Without a mod reveal what purpose would this role serve? Oh, and I don't agree.

matt96 – Not a lot to go on. He has a townie power, but this power might also make him an appealing recruit. Not on my lynch list for today, but I don't think I would try to prevent it.

Carlington – One really long reads post five days ago, not much other content. Carlington, you need some updated reads. I don’t have enough to make a read one way or the other.

mpolo – Waited until halfway through D2 to do any actual scumhunting. I think he’s probably not Black, or he wouldn’t have revealed that he received a note.
mpolo wrote: For me, being in Elaida's faction is almost as bad as being Black Ajah, if that's the case. However, we haven't had any hint of how Amyrlins are changed, so they are certainly a lesser threat at the moment.
Possible Suian recruit, but there’s a small possibility he’s a Black recruit.
mpolo wrote:Vote: Madge

Primarily to get an alternative to ahippo out there.
Why did you believe this was necessary?

JudeMorrigan – Has posted a reasonable amount of content, including player reads, but it should be noted that his scum reads are flavor-driven. I’m not sure what to make of this yet, as I am still pretty flavor blind (I look up what I need for this game), and I don’t yet have a solid opinion on how much the game’s structure depends on the flavor.

dimochka- Another player that hasn’t posted enough content to get a decent read. I get a slight ping from this.
dimochka wrote: my role correlates somewhat with mpolo's suggested list (what colors would result in what roles). i don't actually particularly care about revealing my own role as it's not that great, BUT since mine correlates, i expect that potential cops/vigs/doctors/jailers would too.
It reads to me like a subtle appeal for us to ignore him. Possible Black Ajah.

Gopher of Pern – Possible N1 Suian recruit, because he is so focused on saving SirGabriel. Also, SirGabriel may have recruited him because of his focus on bessie D1 (see below). But if he was recruited by SirGabriel, why switch from bessie to ahippo? Anyway, to answer this:
Gopher of Pern wrote:Sabrar, I wish there was a way to confirm if they were telling the truth, but in absence of that, would it not be better to lynch ahippo, and if they do indeed support Siuan, then we all just follow SirGabriel the next day?
Not necessarily. SirGabriel is the recruiter, not ahippo.

Madge – My pick for Alvairin. Unfortunately has not had a lot of time to catch up since she replaced, but I still think her content has been scummy.
Madge wrote: my role is a bit complicated and that's made even worse by the fact that I don't have any idea about flavour
OK, I have been trying not to meta-game the game (or the mod) since my exchange with moody about it on D1, but this statement that your role is complicated really makes me suspicious.
Madge wrote:That said, he *did* more or less admit that he was cult. Aren't cults a bad thing? Remind me why we shouldn't just lynch them both ASAP????
I don’t like this comment. We haven’t even determined if the cult(s) are the scum factions yet, so this appears to me as a effort by Madge to focus attention away from herself. Scummy.

ahippo – Claim by SirGabriel that they are aligned, and that it is a pro-town faction. I believe the aligned part. It makes sense to me, because it fits with ahippo’s odd vote for me on D1 (following SirGabriel’s lead) despite not having a scum read on me. Although I guess he did say in a couple of different places that he was a bad scum hunter and not to expect much.
ahippo wrote:You've been making way more assumptions than I ever did. If a game did have that much town, anti-NK roles it would be horrifically imbalanced. I think it's highly unlikely for there to be more than one person who had a reason to claim, thus there would probably be no counter-claim.
I feel this statement is irreconcilable with someone who read the previous 18 games instead of posting in this one on D1. I don’t have time to go through them all but probably like three were vanilla enough to only have one anti-NK role.
ahippo wrote: If you're a doctor and you wake up to find no night kill, you've got a pretty good reason to believe you did it right.
Have you listened to nothing that I’ve tried to explain to you?
ahippo wrote: If there were a roleblocker who didn't share that information, it would leave town very in the dark and much more likely to lynch another townie, leading to a much worse scenario D3.
And my reply to this is that you are role fishing. Again.

Conflicting content. Role fishing, and using false information to support it. Scummy.

As a bonus, I’ll answer this for you:
ahippo wrote:I'll end with a claim. Not my Ajah, but my power. I have the ability to read weaves. N2, I can read what powers were used on my target N1. Assuming I survive the day, I'm open to suggestions on whom I should target with this ability.
Target mpolo. Should I explain why too? Or perhaps he is also in your group?

SirGabriel – One thing that really stands out to me is that he tried to cast doubt on content of mpolo’s note, but not on the existence of the note itself.
SirGabriel wrote:Also, the flavor of my role PM mentioned that someone is spreading rumors about the non-existent Black Ajah, so I think Elaida's faction is the closest thing we have to a mafia.
As pointed out, contradicts opening post flavor, but I don’t think that in itself is a big deal for me, because I’m not convinced that everything in the flavor is meant to be more than flavor. What I really don’t like about SirGabriel is his singular focus on me D1, and on D2 until he needed to try another approach to save ahippo.

SirGabriel, I think you might be a scummy Black Ajah mafia. Or you may really be Suian Sanche of the “Suian Supporter” faction. It kinda really doesn’t matter from my point of view. You and ahippo did your best to get me lynched D1. You also tried to get me lynched D2, using I guess the reasons you gave on page two, for my content on page 1. You won’t reply to my requests to confirm your reasons for wanting me lynched. You are totally uninterested in not trying to get me lynched. You will probably try to get me lynched D3, and I don’t really care. What I know is that there is a mountain of evidence that you and ahippo are not going to invite me to join your faction. So seriously, why should I want your team to win, when I'm not going to be part of that team?

Vote: SirGabriel

Would consider switching to ahippo.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Madge » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:26 am UTC

So, I'm beginning to get my head around this game. And in doing so I think I'm more confuse than ever!

It looks like we are mostly unaligned and then join one of the two cults (SirG's Blue or MYsterious Red Leader)? And the cults are opposed to each other, and also to Black (who are the scum faction)? And if you don't get recruited, you still win, as long as Black is killed? Or are the cults aligned? Do we realy believe SirG when he says Black doesn't exist? I don't know anything about flavour but it seems to me that they're the ultimate big bad. But if we have duelling cults and no Black/Evil then what I see below makes sense.

I guess the big question is, can SirG win along with Red? If so then it doesn't matter which cult we get recruited into, as long as we kill Black. SirG's post seems to be emphatically "no" on that subject, what with calling Red the "real Black faction" or something. So that's kind of convenient for him, that his rival team would also be the scum team... But if he was masons he wouldn't make all this crap up, and if he was scum surely he'd lie and be masons? I am finding this really hard to follow....

If SirG can't win with Red, I say we kill SirG's blue cult because we know who they are (OK, 2/3 of them anyway) and thus can be guaranteed to virtually eliminate them. Then we all get recruited to Red, and the red and unaligned all win together. That way we eliminate (or minimise I guess) Red VS Blue politics in thread and we can focus on identifying and killing Black.

Of course, wasting lynches on Blue or Red is probably a terrible idea. If anyone has night kill powers, it might be something to consider.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby bessie » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:46 am UTC

Madge wrote:It looks like we are mostly unaligned and then join one of the two cults (SirG's Blue or MYsterious Red Leader)? And the cults are opposed to each other, and also to Black (who are the scum faction)? And if you don't get recruited, you still win, as long as Black is killed? Or are the cults aligned? Do we realy believe SirG when he says Black doesn't exist?
This is what we are trying to figure out.

Can the mod post the official votals?

Unofficial votals (barring shenanigans):

ahippo (3) : Gopher of Pern, Carlington, JudeMorrigan
Madge (2) : SirGabriel, mpolo
JudeMorrigan (1) : Sabrar
SirGabriel (1) : bessie

Not voting: ahippo, dimochka, Madge, matt96

Deadline is in less than 12 hours.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:56 am UTC

Unvote

- completely forgot about D1 flavor, my mistake
- possibly SirGabriel also forgot about it, that's why the contradicting flavor
- totally understand bessie's vote but I think it's selfish and placed for the wrong reasons. If you really think Madge is Black Ajah, shouldn't you be voting for her as they are 100% scum, while Siuan might still be on Town's side? It is always possible for SirGabriel to later change his mind while scum will want you dead no matter what you do.

Gopher of Pern wrote:Sabrar, I wish there was a way to confirm if they were telling the truth, but in absence of that, would it not be better to lynch ahippo, and if they do indeed support Siuan, then we all just follow SirGabriel the next day?
What bessie said, assuming they are scum we need to get rid of the recruiter. Unless SirGabriel put up a front for ahippo, trying to save him for one more night to get another recruit. But I think ahippo would have claimed to be Siuan before in that case.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby mpolo » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:29 am UTC

After reading this, what if Elaida knows that Siuan is not taking part in the conversations and plans to "depose" her while she's not looking for it, precisely as it was in the book?

That would mean that Elaida's faction would think that there is no Black Ajah (as in the book), know that they could safely claim to be Siuan, and so forth.

The question is which of the two is the recruiter.

Unvote

Vote: ahippo

Since I didn't trust him to begin with, it seems likely that a compatriot would try to jump in and be a human shield for his recruiter.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:50 am UTC

Just as the group looked like they'd decided who to dispose of, a voice piped up: "no - this one is a supporter of the rightful Amyrlin. He should be spared!"

Votals:

ahippo(4): Gopher of Pern, Carlington, JudeMorrigan, mpolo
Madge(1): SirGabriel
SirGabriel(1): bessie

Not voting: Madge, dimochka, ahippo, matt96, Sabrar

With 11 alive, it is 6 to lynch.

Soft deadline is at 7pm UTC on Wednesday 1st February (~10 1/4 hours from now). Please submit night actions before then (you are welcome to revise them later). Night will likely last only a couple of hours this time. If your night action has not been received by 9pm UTC on Wednesday, you may not get to use it.

dimochka has requested a replacement. He may continue to post until we find one or he is (mod)killed.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby ahippo » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:56 am UTC

This was certainly unexpected.

SirGabriel is lying. I'm not one of his supporters. In fact, JudeMorrigan nailed it D1. I'm an Elaida supporter. I bet that explains a lot for everyone. For what it's worth, bessie, I did think you were town D1. Now I'm not so sure. Given the likelihood of my own lynching, you'll see that I'm telling the truth now. This game is a battle of recruiters, and I'm sorry to my fellow Elaida supporters that I played so poorly. SirGabriel likely gave away the way that the Black Ajah recruit, since it's the way that we do, and with my lynching the Elaida crew won't be recruiting tonight.

My guess is that SirGabriel is one of the Black Ajah. With his post, he put a huge pressure on me today. Tonight, they're probably going to recruit matt96 for his double vote. From there, it's nearly impossible for them to lose. It was a really strong play, since it seemed like I might not be lynched today before then. I'll fight it in the only way I have.

Vote: SirGabriel

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:58 am UTC

WTF?

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:03 am UTC

@ahippo:
- why in hell would SirGabriel defend you if your lynch would be convenient for him???
- why do you think matt96 wasn't already recruited N1?

Your post just does not make any sense, except if you're really trying to get lynched because SirGabriel is the recruiter and you're afraid people would switch to him.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby ahippo » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:31 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:why in hell would SirGabriel defend you if your lynch would be convenient for him?

Simple. His "defense" turned much of the attention back towards me when the votals could have easily gone another way. Especially if my fellow Elaida supporters changed their votes at the right time. With my death, the Black Ajah can be assured another recruitment tonight.

Sabrar wrote:why do you think matt96 wasn't already recruited N1?

Maybe he was, but he barely contributed D1 and he revealed his power late enough that it's possible they just missed it. I did. Either way, the Black Ajah are probably going to have five votes D3, which is pretty scary, unless we lynch one today.

Sabrar wrote:Your post just does not make any sense, except if you're really trying to get lynched because SirGabriel is the recruiter and you're afraid people would switch to him.

I think you'll find from my role PM that if SirGabriel is the recruiter for my faction it would be pretty bad for him if I die. I assure you it won't be. I'm not expecting Elaida to out herself for my own sake in the course of the next few hours, or ever.

Rest assured, I'd always rather have real Aes Sedai in charge of the White Tower, no matter how bad they are, than some bleeding Myrddraal puppet darkfriends. The Black Ajah do exist, and I hope you'll fight against them. But the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Gopher of Pern » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:46 am UTC

ahippo wrote:This was certainly unexpected.

SirGabriel is lying. I'm not one of his supporters. In fact, JudeMorrigan nailed it D1. I'm an Elaida supporter. I bet that explains a lot for everyone. For what it's worth, bessie, I did think you were town D1. Now I'm not so sure. Given the likelihood of my own lynching, you'll see that I'm telling the truth now. This game is a battle of recruiters, and I'm sorry to my fellow Elaida supporters that I played so poorly. SirGabriel likely gave away the way that the Black Ajah recruit, since it's the way that we do, and with my lynching the Elaida crew won't be recruiting tonight.

My guess is that SirGabriel is one of the Black Ajah. With his post, he put a huge pressure on me today. Tonight, they're probably going to recruit matt96 for his double vote. From there, it's nearly impossible for them to lose. It was a really strong play, since it seemed like I might not be lynched today before then. I'll fight it in the only way I have.

Vote: SirGabriel


To quote Sabrar:
Sabrar wrote:WTF?


So, ahippo, you are saying that you are *not* on SirGabriels side? That they were trying to get you lynched by revealing, even though you were already leading the votals?

Umm....is there any flavour reason there would be a jester in the game? That's the only reason I could see for SirGabriel doing their action. If they are unaligned, they wouldn't put themselves out in this way. If they are Siuan, or part of her faction, they wouldn't try to save someone of another faction. If they are Elaida's faction, ahippo would probably try to take the save, instead of going against them. If they are black ajah...why would they try to 'save' ahippo?

ahippo, you were already leading the votals, so why would they reveal to put more pressure on?

Frankly, at this stage, I'd be happy with lynching either of ahippo or SirGabriel
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:08 am UTC

ahippo wrote:Simple. His "defense" turned much of the attention back towards me when the votals could have easily gone another way. Especially if my fellow Elaida supporters changed their votes at the right time.
There was no indication that votals would go in any other way and your 'fellow Elaida' supporters should have already made their move on Monday, not hoping that the mod would grant the extension.

ahippo wrote:Maybe he was, but he barely contributed D1 and he revealed his power late enough that it's possible they just missed it. I did.
N1 lasted a full day, plenty of time for everyone to notice the (x2) after matt's vote and the difference between the votals and the number of actual players voting.

At this point I think ahippo's flip would give us the most information, plus he told us that he was an Elaida supporter so fmpov he can no longer be Town in any scenario. Not wanting to put him at L-1 just yet.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:47 am UTC

Will role-reveals include original alignments and all (successful) recruitments, just the former, just the last info or what?

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Madge » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:00 pm UTC

On one hand, THIS IS SO FREAKING EXCITING OH MY GOD WHAT A TWIST WHO WOULD HAVE SEEN THAT ONE COMING.

On the other hand - what the freaking heck.

Vote: SirGabriel

No townie in their right mind would make a claim like that to save a townread if it wasn't true. In light of this information I really don't see any other choice possible for lynch. I still think ahippo was scummy AF and is maybe using this to deflect blame, so a vig might want to target him tonight, but that's ultimately their own call to make.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Madge » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:01 pm UTC

EBWOP

I think I just tied the votals with that one. Don't count on me being online before deadline. I go to bed in two hours and will not be up before deadline's passed in all likelihood.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:06 pm UTC

@Madge: by my count ahippo still leads by 1 vote, unless you claim to have inherited matt's double vote last night somehow.

In light of recent events:

Vote: ahippo

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby SirGabriel » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:08 pm UTC

Well, that didn't go at all how I hoped. No time for a long post, but I am Elaida, and ahippo is telling the truth about being an Elaida supporter. Pretty much everything else I claimed is true. I didn't claim my real role because (a) several people implied claiming to be Elaida would be almost as bad as claiming to be mafia, and (b) I was hoping for a counterclaim from the real Siuan or one of her supporters.
As for my night action, I have the One Power Talent of Foretelling: I can ask the mod (almost) any one question at night and get a truthful answer. Last night I found out that neither Siuan nor I are anti-town but either faction can win with the unaligned. Tonight (assuming I live) I'm asking how many mafia there are, just to confirm that I'm understanding my flavor correctly, since my flavor suggests there are none.
And regarding my claim at the beginning of D2, I know that Siuan is in the game and I know the colors of myself and all my supporters, as well as Diemo's color, and since there were no duplicates, I initially took that to imply that there was exactly one from each color in the game.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:19 pm UTC

WTF x2

I seriously don't know what's happening anymore.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:22 pm UTC

Why would ahippo deny that he was in the same faction as SirGabriel? We lynch ahippo today, turns out he's Elaida supporter, we would then logically lynch SirGabriel next for lying to us. Can anyone make any sense of this?

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:27 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Will role-reveals include original alignments and all (successful) recruitments, just the former, just the last info or what?
A player's role reveal will only include their current win condition, including any faction that they may be a part of at the time of death.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby ahippo » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:37 pm UTC

Unvote
Vote: Madge

AACH! I was hoping you'd let me take the fall or at least sew enough confusion to give us the possibility to have a last minute vote change or something. After mpolo unvoted me I thought we had a chance to change the narrative. We don't have a night chat, so we have no way of discussing this beforehand. I mean, it seemed pretty obvious I was gonna get lynched anyway today. When it came up I was part of Elaida's faction, you would have been super implicated. Especially if I went along with your story about you being Siuan, and I doubt that story would have saved me. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm a pretty bad mafia player.

I'm about to be hammered, so no reason not to come clean. So SirGabriel, real quick, you didn't mean what you said about there being no Black Ajah, right? Like, I'm still 99% sure they're here, and recruiters too. If anyone reading this is still unaligned, you can decide which of us to chose tomorrow. For today, if we don't lynch Black Ajah, we're in big trouble.

I never got a chance to use my power, assuming I'm about to get lynched, so unfortunately I don't have any information I haven't shared. With my last breath I spit in the Dark One's eye. Good luck friends. Don't let the White Tower fall.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Madge » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:38 pm UTC

I don't know what to think anymore. *throws hands up in disgust*

I'm keeping my vote where it is, because eff all of this noise. Whether it's SirG or ahippo who gets the noose tonight, at least we'll hopefully have some more insight into what exactly the other one is playing at.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:46 pm UTC

Currently it looks to me like SirGabriel is really the recruiter, so it makes sense to lynch him first.

Unvote
Vote: SirGabriel


By my count this puts him at 4-4 with ahippo, and without any further changes ahippo would still be lynched due to voting rules.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:49 pm UTC

Miscounted, ahippo is no longer voting for SirGabriel, so he leads 4-3.

@mod: please post votals.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby ahippo » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:54 pm UTC

Dammit.

Vote: ahippo

His power is more useful than mine. If you're unaligned or a Siuan supporter, lynch me instead. Siuan supporters will almost unquestionably lose if you spend D3 lynching SirGabriel, and he can help you find Black Ajah.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby ahippo » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:54 pm UTC

EBWOP:

Unvote
Vote: ahippo

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby Sabrar » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:11 pm UTC

Request mod-prod on Carlington

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:23 pm UTC

Carlington has been mod-prodded.

A massive argument was brewing between the different groups. Some of the assembled Aes Sedai watched on in confusion at all the back and forths, claims and false claims.

Votals:

ahippo(5): Gopher of Pern, Carlington, JudeMorrigan, mpolo, ahippo
Madge(1): SirGabriel
SirGabriel(3): bessie, Madge, Sabrar

Not voting: dimochka, matt96

I think... Please check as I don't have time to currently!

With 11 alive, it is 6 to lynch.

Soft deadline is at 7pm UTC on Wednesday 1st February (~5 1/2 hours from now). Please submit night actions before then (you are welcome to revise them later). Night will likely last only a couple of hours this time. If your night action has not been received by 9pm UTC on Wednesday, you may not get to use it.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby dimochka » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:58 pm UTC

I'm posting while hopefully we can find a replacement. I'd prefer that I don't get modkilled, I can make an attempt to make posts but will be very limited.

Sabrar wrote:Currently it looks to me like SirGabriel is really the recruiter, so it makes sense to lynch him first.

This makes a lot of sense. It also makes a lot of sense if you're actually Black Ajah.
Sabrar wrote:dimochka: very little content on D2, with more promises. Now that MMMII is finished I am allowed to mention that I saw the same kind of lurking from scum!dimochka there. Scummy.

With your track record of researching previous games, I would have expected you to go back and look at more games where I had things come up at work for comparison, which would show that this has nothing to do with alignment. Actually I'd say it's usually easier to come up with content as scum because you usually have a better idea of the setup (this is debatable, just my view).

Quick thoughts on people, not that it'll change last minute votes (except that we had a sudden new wagon end of D1 so I don't even know):
ahippo/sirg - part of some kind of recruiting group. considering we had no kill this is worrying. but considering I don't necessarily believe that the recruiting is a threat to the white tower, it doesn't concern me as much as some others. Maybe because I don't know flavor. Neutral in my book.
sabrar - something is off in his focus on people. he does not feel townie to me. I mentioned two instances above. Neutral leaning Scummy
jude - already noted he seemed off to me, and his "nice" response is just that, a nice response. if we truly have two recruiting factions then i don't really see anything off about what was mentioned, and it seems that jude almost singlehandedly pushed that lynch. if ahippo flips non-scum, jude would be my next pick. He's kind of my pick in general.
Bessie - content greatly improved. actually doing analysis.
bessie wrote:I've been struggling with reads this game, maybe because of all the potentially unaligned players.

This makes me think she's unaligned as well.
On a separate note, I will claim my color D3 if people want. I have my reasons.
Madge - also seems unaligned. mostly reacting to what happened with sirg / ahippo. i might be biased because i found moody's thoughts aligned with mine and madge seems clueless about the factions.
Matt- no opinion because basically lacking content
Mpolo - neutral. i didn't like his vote on madge to "get someone else out there". but otherwise he's been helpful
Carlington - almost no content. i distinctly remember not liking his content on d1, but don't have time now to go back to find why. neutral leaning scummy
GOP - the only person I'm kind of suspecting being white ajah, if that even exists. i think his thoughts are more coherent, but again with minutes till deadline i dont have time to look for them. although i am curious - why would you want to lynch the supporter and not the recruiter?

I guess what i'm trying to figure out here is why some people want to lynch the supporter (is it to confirm alignment) or the recruiter (is it because they're convinced they're scum).

sorry for lack of content and hopefully we find a replacement. otherwise i'm ok with being modkilled if people prefer based on my lacking content.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:58 pm UTC

It was getting late, and the arguments continued to be discussed. Some claimed that they were supporting one person and then another, whilst others felt that people were focusing in the wrong direction. Gradually, the majority of the voices turned in one direction.

The Sister who had previously attracted a lot of heat, until another stepped in supporting her finally shouted, "Enough! I am not a traitor. But I see your opinions are elsewhere. Very well, take me away, but you should know that you are looking in the wrong place."

A trio of the more vocal Sisters weaved a shield around her and together they left the library, heading for the deep cells.


Day 2 is now over. ahippo has been lynched. Role-reveal in the morning.

Final votals:

ahippo(5): Gopher of Pern, Carlington, JudeMorrigan, mpolo, ahippo
Madge(1): SirGabriel
SirGabriel(3): bessie, Madge, Sabrar

Not voting: dimochka, matt96

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D2)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:00 pm UTC

Day 3 - A Quiet Night
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Siuan was glad to have been able to get some rest after the strangeness of the previous day’s events. After the gathering had spent much of the day debating one person and their actions it wasn’t entirely surprising that the conclusion was that she was the one that should be dealt with. Yet the manner in which it all happened was just… odd.

She decided to accompany the Sisters the following morning down to the cells to help interrogate the prisoner. The woman was in a sorry state. Her robes were dirty already from the grime and filth of the cell, and the shield on her meant that she was not able to clean herself up like any self-respecting Aes Sedai (apart form a Brown) would do normally. As Siuan entered the room, the figure sneered at her.

“We know what you are up to ‘Mother’” she said, the emphasis on the honorific clear to hear. “You will not get away with this. I am one of many, who will bring you down, if you do not tread more carefully.”

“You are a fool. You have been focusing in the wrong places. And you do not know how much a threat you are posing to the stability of the Tower. You will be dealt with in due cause,” the Amyrlin said, and with that walked out, leaving the interrogation to others.

Leane found her on the way back to the study, clutching a book. “It looks like the Sisters came good last night, if not exactly the way you would expect, Mother. The prisoner is of course Jermania Pallock, of the White Ajah, and she was not a supporter of you at all. This is her journal, and oddly it is not in code. See these last few entries - she is openly putting you down, and supporting none other than Elaida Sedai!”


ahippo has been lynched and is dead. He was Jermania Pallock, of the White Ajah and a member of Elaida’s Supporters.

Role Info:
Spoiler:
His win condition was to eliminate all threats to Elaida’s leadership (unaligned players are not threats). Each night, his faction could recruit an additional member, if a faction member was not lynched. His faction did not have any chat abilities.

Each night, ahippo could target one player including himself or a dead player, and would be informed of what One Power abilities were used on that player the previous night.
As the pair reached the study, they saw an Accepted waiting, looking concerned.

“What is it child?” Siuan asked.

“It’s Alviarin Sedai, Mother. I was supposed to have instruction with her, but when she didn’t answer her door, I thought I’d best find out was going on, so I went and found Sheriam Sedai. She went into the room, and there was Alviarin lying on the floor. She wasn’t quite dead, I think, but the Mistress said that I should inform you immediately, and give you this. I think it was in her hand, or something.”

The Accepted presented a small wax tablet to Siuan. Leane gasped as she saw what was being presented. Quickly, she ushered the Accepted away.

“Well, that is something. I recognise it - it’s one of the stolen ter’angreals from the vaults. That can only mean one thing...”


JudeMorrigan is dead. He was Alviarin Freidhen, ostensibly Aes Sedai of the White Ajah, but in fact leader of the Black Ajah.

Role Info:
Spoiler:
His win condition was to control the leadership of the White Tower or to eliminate all other players (or if nothing could prevent that). His faction controls a night kill, but only after one of the faction members was killed. His faction did not have any chat abilities.

Each night, he could send an anonymous message to anybody not in his faction.
That was an interesting turn of events, Siuan mused.

It is now D3. Deadline is 7pm UTC Tuesday, 7th February. With 9 alive, it is 5 to lynch.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D3)

Postby SirGabriel » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:25 pm UTC

Okay, apparently the flavor in my role PM was misleading when it said the Black Ajah were nonexistent (which I suppose makes sense if, as Jude said, Elaida initially believed they didn't exist before later realizing her mistake).

For what it's worth, I used my Foretelling power and found out that there were three members in a mafia-like faction (presumably the Black Ajah) at the beginning of the game. Which would appear to make the initial setup 5/3/2/2, with at least two recruiting factions (given that we do have a mafia, it's possible that Siuan is not part of a recruiting faction, and flavor-wise it would make sense that the reigning Amyrlin wouldn't need to be actively recruiting supporters).

Does anyone want to claim killing Jude?

I hope at this point it's clear that I am in fact Elaida and that the Black Ajah are the biggest threat at the moment. Hopefully I'll have time tomorrow to do a reread and see if anyone stands out as a likely teammate of Jude.

Also, one detail I left out of my claim that might be relevant now: I am the faction leader and thus control the recruit, but if I die, one of my supporters will become the faction leader and control the recruit. If the Black Ajah works the same way, they might still have a recruit power even though we killed their leader.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D3)

Postby dimochka » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:36 pm UTC

I killed Jude, and I'm now essentially vanilla. I'm green Ajah. More later, but just wanted to get it out there.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D3)

Postby Gopher of Pern » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:32 am UTC

Good work dim.

So, if SirGabriel is correct, we have 2 mafia remaining, 2 of SirGabriel's faction remaining, up to 4 of another faction remaining, with 1-3 unaligned? IF there are indeed two recruiting factions.

What information do we have that there is a recruiting faction aside from SirGabriels?

Do you lose your recruit if you are NK'd SirGabriel?

Just going to make a list of players with their claims, so we can get some clarity:

Sabrar - No claims
mpolo - Received note
Carlington - No claims
moody7277Madge - No claims
dimochka - Green Ajah - 1-shot vig
bessie - No claims
Gopher of Pern - No claims
SirGabriel - Claimed Elaida - Red Ajah - One question per night
ahippo Lynched D2 - Elaida groupie - White Ajah - Previous night watcher
JudeMorriganDied N2 - Black Ajah - White Ajah - Gives out messages
DiemoLynched D1 - Unaligned - Brown Ajah - weird letters power
matt96 - Double vote

Can someone else double check that I haven't missed anything?

SirGabriel, I don't think that your theory about there only being one of each Ajah holds water, as there are two revealed whites there, although one of the whites was a black.

If no one else got a letter, that would mean mpolo was not a member of the black ajah in D2. So mpolo is looking pretty townie. (Jude could only send messages to people not of their faction, and their faction had no chat abilities, so the chances of that being a bluff is vanishingly small.)

Ok, just checked, and the information we have about the black ajah recruiting came from the black ajah (mpolos note from Jude). So, that makes me think that the black ajah cannot recruit. They'd be pretty powerful if they had a recruit and a kill.
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D3)

Postby SirGabriel » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:27 am UTC

Note: parts of this post were rendered irrelevant upon rereading Jude's role reveal, but I left them in so you can see my thought process.

Gopher of Pern wrote:What information do we have that there is a recruiting faction aside from SirGabriels?

We have mpolo's note, plus we have no evidence that there is any kill power in the game other than dimochka's one-shot vig. No one was killed by mafia the first two nights, and no one has yet flipped/claimed doctor/jailer/bulletproof/other-kill-preventing-role, so either we have at least one protective role that has been very effective so far, or the "mafia-like faction" has no kill power (which could explain why jimbob didn't simply call it "mafia" when I asked how many were in the mafia).
Gopher of Pern wrote:Do you lose your recruit if you are NK'd SirGabriel?

If I die, then someone else becomes faction leader and gains the recruit power. I don't know whether I could successfully recruit anyone the night I died, but if I'm correct that the mafia has no nightkill, that's not really relevant.
Gopher of Pern wrote:SirGabriel, I don't think that your theory about there only being one of each Ajah holds water, as there are two revealed whites there, although one of the whites was a black.

Yeah, I realized somewhere in the middle of D2 that I was probably wrong about that, but my that point we had already agreed not to do a massclaim, so I saw no reason to mention it.
Gopher of Pern wrote:If no one else got a letter, that would mean mpolo was not a member of the black ajah in D2. So mpolo is looking pretty townie. (Jude could only send messages to people not of their faction, and their faction had no chat abilities, so the chances of that being a bluff is vanishingly small.)

Ok, just checked, and the information we have about the black ajah recruiting came from the black ajah (mpolos note from Jude). So, that makes me think that the black ajah cannot recruit. They'd be pretty powerful if they had a recruit and a kill.

Apparently I didn't read Jude's role very closely, ignore what I said above about mafia not having a kill. I agree that this means mpolo is probably not mafia.
I guess the only real evidence we have that there are multiple recruiting factions is the phrase "unaligned with any faction" from Diemo's role reveal, which in my mind suggests that there are multiple factions they can become aligned with. Also, my win condition is essentially the same as the unaligned except that it specifies Siuan and her supporters as being a threat to the stability of the White Tower; I'm assuming Siuan similarly seeks to eliminate all threats to the White Tower including Elaida and her supporters. If that is correct, then Siuan's win condition would probably be much harder to achieve than mine if she started with only one or two supporters and could not recruit.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D3)

Postby SirGabriel » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:29 am UTC

Did anyone receive an anonymous message last night?

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D3)

Postby bessie » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:31 am UTC

I have nothing to claim from last night. I didn't get a letter/message/note/etc N1 or N2.

Good job dimochka.

I just got home, so more later.

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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D3)

Postby mpolo » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:43 am UTC

No messages, just a flavor thing where it said I went to bed.

So currently it looks like Black gained a kill tonight, but I don't regret that someone killed Alviarin.

We still don't know what would make Elaida's group win. Do they have to recruit a majority? That leaves them as a threat to the majority now, but the killing faction is very pressing. Maybe, if we take out the Blacks before Elaida has reached a majority they lose. (Otherwise we have an out-of-control cult and not enough kills to handle both threats.)
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D3)

Postby Madge » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:44 am UTC

I received an item, but I don't think that exactly counts as a message. I have a one-shot kill due to receiving a dagger.

Thanks, whoever gave me that! The thing I wanted most in the world was the ability to screw things up for everyone by killing the wrong person because we all know I'm a next level scum hunter :roll:

(I'm guessing the person who gave it to me gave it to me because I was advising a vig to kill SirG or ahippo, so.... I might do that, if that's what they intended. But knowing this game IT COULD GO CRAZY so who the heck knows.)
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Re: Wheel of Time 2 - The White Tower (D3)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:03 am UTC

No messages, however I have a result that I plan to reveal later.

So Siuan's faction needs to get rid of Elaida's and vice versa? And what was the Black Ajah doing before they gained a kill? Also there is no chat abilities in the game? That means we probably don't have worry about any kind of coordinated gambits.

@dimochka:
Spoiler:
I brought up MMMII only because it was fresh in my mind and I even commented on your lurking. Looking back we played very few games together:

- Smalltown, you were Town, killed N1, lurking, similar situation
- PyPokemon, you were Town but not lurking as I tried to actively get you lynched

and that's it. There was also Dollhouse where you were SK, somewhat lurking and needed replacement due to IRL.
(Wanted to reply yesterday but mod called the night before I could do so. Irrelevant now.)

I don't really understand your first point. So there is something that I would have done both as Townie and as Scum and because of that you find me scummy? Is that really your point?


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