I have returned. And to some excitement, too. Let's start with Sabrar.
Sabrar wrote:Re-read of LaserGuy shows nothing that screams townie to me but there are a number of red flags.
Oh this should be good.
I would expect at least a mention from town!LaserGuy on the possibility of scum or Vig killing a Jester even if then realizes that Jester is intentionally acting scummy so mafia probably won't help us in that regard.
Really now? As many others have brought up, of my last five games, I've been scum in four. The one town game I played, you were scum. None of those games included a jester, and in bin Chicken where I was town, I didn't engage in basically any setup speculation at all (eg. I didn't answer any of the hypothetical questions posed by you or jimbob). So I'm a little
bit skeptical that you have such a good meta read on my town game as to be able to predict what specific information I would say about this particular type of jester on my first post of the game.
And it's not like the options you present are really interesting alternatives. If Mafia kills the Jester, it basically transposes into a 7-2 setup where mafia hit a townie. If Vig hits the Jester, it transposes to the 6-2-1 setup where we let the Jester die after D2. Though because of this, vigging the Jester is completely pointless--if we know the identity of the Jester well enough to vig them, then we know it well enough to ignore them. If we have to choose between two players to lynch and think one is the Jester, we're better off no lynching D2 and saving the vig for N3. There's no benefit whatsoever. Strategies that rely on luck or the beneficence of the mafia aren't great for town, anyway.
1. 'Instructing' the Vig to kill the Jester is a valid strategy.
No it isn't. It's pointless. The Jester dies on D3 regardless of what we do as long as we don't lynch them. Killing them with a vig just wastes the vig.
As mentioned multiple times before saying that something feels off is not particularly helpful and is in fact a way to avoid having to give concrete reads. He does it here
and later doubles down here
. Plus if all he found as 'off' was that plytho wasn't active lurking in his opinion then his initial comment doesn't really makes sense.
Not all I found, just all I was prepared to comment on at that point. Like you, I prefer not to disclose meta tells if I don't feel it necessary. I saw something that reminded me of plytho's scum play and found bessie's active lurking comment odd. My opinion of bessie has improved since then; my opinion of plytho has not.
3. His read
on plytho is weird as he is basically putting him as scum based on a single similarity with a previous game.
Why are you defending plytho so much? Very interesting. But yes, this feels a lot like plytho scum from Shakespeare, except he's tunneling bessie instead of Gopher. Since it's likely to come up, I will mention that, unlike your weaksauce meta read of me in your point 1, I was actually on plytho's scum team in Shakespeare, and have access to a lot more information about how he actually thinks and plays as scum. But (assuming you're town and care to do so), you can probably go back and compare with D1 plytho in Dark Tower where he was solidly town to see the difference.
4. Don't like this
. Dismisses too easily the possibility of honest curiosity and possible scum-hunting.
For someone so obsessed with logic I'm surprised your logic has failed so badly here. Scum has daychat. Therefore if Peaceful Whale is trying to signal someone here, it isn't a scum partner. Since game is newbie friendly and low bastardry, scum-town interactions are very unlikely. Ergo if PW is signaling anyone, it's town signalling town or at worst indie signalling town. If it is not signalling then it is irrelevant and can be safely ignored. It is in the best interest of town not to expose power roles, especially in D1, so it is in town's best interests to ignore this until such time as it is relevant since it may imply some townie PR interaction, and almost certainly does not imply a scum interaction. Therefore, regardless of the innocence of the questioning, it's anti town. As I already suggested.
Pursuing this line of questioning is at best irrelevant, and at worst, harmful to town, so townies should not be pursuing it.
LaserGuy: Still feels pretty townie to me despite this:
LaserGuy wrote:plytho: Spends a lot of time arguing with bessie about a specific point on the setup. I'll note that plytho did something very similar in Shakespeare III where he spent much of D1 arguing with jimbob about setup as well, and plytho was scum that game.
being wrong. I checked back because I didn’t remember it and in fact it was Sabrar arguing with jimbob D1. I did get into an argument with Gopher from D2 onwards but that’s what my scumhunting looks like (I was convinced he was on the rival scum team). I’ll chalk this up as misremembering for now but if you show other scummy behaviour I’ll start thinking this was malicious.
You and Sabrar had an extended and ultimately spurious conversation about whether it was correct play to policy lynch a townie with the Hated modifier. It wasn't technically setup I suppose so my mistake there.
plytho wrote:Sabrar: I’m not convinced by Sabrar’s case on LaserGuy.
And Sabrar doesn't agree with you on bessie. Fortunately you both have flicky as your second scummiest read and will reluctantly agree to him as a compromise lynch.
LaserGuy wrote:bessie: Lots of discussion on setup, particularly with plytho and Sabrar. Doesn't feel as townie as she often does to me. Makes some partial reads that seem plausible. Would like to see some full reads. Putting as neutral.
And what is that supposed to mean? In the previous three games we played together, I was town and you were mafia. In our previous games perhaps I felt townie to you because you knew I was very likely town.
Fair point. Though even in my scum games I have mostly read you as town for legitimate reasons, but I can't deny that there's probably a bit of bias there. This is a moot point anyway, because I'm pretty sure you're town now.
bessie wrote:More reactions/responses.
Glad I finally get to play a game on the same team as you.
Sabrar wrote:So you're openly contemplating the possibility of me and plytho being scum-buddies twice and then you're wondering why I'm reacting to it. Sure.
I have a feeling that I've seen this happen before. Was it jimbob in Dark Tower, bessie?
plytho wrote:EBWOP: at this point I just want to understand bessie and make myself understood. I'm aware this won't lead to a scum read and it's all a big misunderstanding but I really really want to clear this up.
So... why are you using this as a scum read on bessie
And if it's just a misunderstanding that is completely irrelevant to what's actually happening, why are you investing so many words in it? I didn't think you were active lurking at the start of the game, but this is practically the definition of active lurking.Unvote flicky