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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Sabrar » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:55 am UTC

@Zen: you know he was scum, right? :D

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:58 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:Regarding Zen's reasons I'm getting the feeling that he does the same as with his early push onto h_a, namely seeing things that aren't there. I have some issues with his other reads as well so I'm currently not in the mood of relying on them.


I want to know what exactly are your issues. I also want you to comment on his Red Ryu reasoning, Spak reasoning, and Jimbob reasoning. How does his early push translate into that post?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby bessie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:59 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:George we will be able to get it through once you come aboard. Whale will see our unity and join us because he no longer has to choose which parent he wants to live with.

Evil George Washington wrote:I giggled at that. I realize that near deadline it's hard to get a hold of people, and it's causing me to worry and stress. Hold me Zen.

I'm having way too much fun. This may end up being one of my favorite games ever. :D

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Sabrar » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:04 am UTC

@EGW: he occasionally does not address the actual content in the post itself, rather what he thinks the implications are. You'll have to wait for a more detailed answer.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:05 am UTC

I look forward to this response.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Sabrar » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:08 am UTC

Don't stay up just because of it, no idea when I'll have the time.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby mpolo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:08 am UTC

I'd like to be able to help us get to consensus, but I'm not seeing a lot of consensus to support. It's 7am here. I will be offline at least until 10 — if the hospital has public WLAN, I will check in then. After that, I will probably be under anesthesia until afternoon (i.e. after deadline).
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:11 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Boomfrog: What do you mean by that? Describe to me how you would expect XKCD'ers to play out tomorrow. (Town and Scum)

If have to do a count and I need to go to bed so it has to wait. But I feel like there are barely 11 responsive players and a few of the low activity players will not vote usefully by deadline. We have more scummy lynch targets then we know what to do with. No Lynch would be a disaster.

Really must sleep now, I promised my wife no mafia after 10pm and it's 10:10.
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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Sabrar » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:11 am UTC

Did h_a just disappear?

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#HBC | Zyth
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:17 am UTC

mpolo wrote:I'd like to be able to help us get to consensus, but I'm not seeing a lot of consensus to support. It's 7am here. I will be offline at least until 10 — if the hospital has public WLAN, I will check in then. After that, I will probably be under anesthesia until afternoon (i.e. after deadline).

You have jim on your lynch list correct? With you, we'll be half way there.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:20 am UTC

George, we'll always be able to swing back to moody if need be.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby bessie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:24 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Really must sleep now, I promised my wife no mafia after 10pm and it's 10:10.
BoomFrog, you need to plan ahead. I sent my husband a text this afternoon ( and “accidentally” group texted his band ) telling him what I was making for dinner and letting him know I would be stopping at the supermarket and would be picking up beer on the way home. By the time I got home there were already two extra musicians in my house. My husband’s been out of my way all night. :P

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:24 am UTC

Sabrar: Talk to me about Bessie's scum play. How does it compare to her town play? Curious.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Sabrar » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:27 am UTC

Can't tell you. It's an ongoing joke that she wasn't scum for ages so everyone just reads her town.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:31 am UTC

I see, thank you.

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#HBC | Zyth
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:43 am UTC

BTW George I don't feel like you're really trying to pull the votes. You haven't made a case on any of your lynch candidates. I asked you to help figure out Ryu, but you've provided nothing.

Vote jim and at least help me put scum in a position where they are forced to choose.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:49 am UTC

The most I could do was post while mobile / at work. Casing would require more time.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:55 am UTC

I'll help you for now: Unvote; Vote: Jimbobmacdoodle

Who would scum be forced to choose between?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby plytho » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:21 am UTC

What's up with the jimbob wagon? As I went to bed we were converging on Gamma, moody and Ryu (but mostly Gamma and moody) with very little support for a jimbob lynch in the tally. I feel like Zen is going out of his way to avoid lynching those three, first with the dark horse push and now with a fourth alternative lynch. That fourth wagon, besides moving attention off the top three, is also going to make it harder to ensure a majority lynch.

I do not intend to vote jimbob today.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:37 am UTC

Ran, will you stay on if I can ensure you we have the votes?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby bessie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:46 am UTC

Summary of moody’s posts:
Spoiler:
Post 1: Setup, RVS, PW’s meta.
Post 2: Reply to GE, against a mpolo lynch based solely on role.
Post 3: Gives mpolo townie points for claiming a scummy power, discusses how it might be useful.
Post 4: Setup.
Post 5: Answers Zyth’s question to PW with speculation of intent. SDK reference.
Post 6: Setup.
Post 7: Defends defense of mpolo, example of how mpolo’s power might be useful.
Post 8: More self defense.
Post 9: Detailed example of how mpolo’s power could be useful for town by comparison to previous game.
Post 10: Null.
Post 11: Reads list, mpolo neutral for insufficient data. Second SDK reference.
Post 12: Lynch lurkers.
Post 13: Setup (two scum teams common as of late? not sure about this).
moody7277 wrote:I think that the reason two-scum teams have been common of late is that we haven't had the player base recently to support big enough games for a bigger scum faction (needs at least 12 I think?). As for having two different scum teams, that would fall into the exotic stuff I said I would be looking out for earlier.

Post 14: More on mpolo’s claim, appears not useful for town (even though he had gone out of his way to speculate why it could be).
Post 15: Third SDK sighting. Setup, some brief updated reads.
moody7277 wrote:I have never played in a game with two scum teams, although I may have suggested it once or twice. We've only had a couple of games recently that had the size to support them.

Post 16: Experience with two scum teams, says he shouldn’t be trusting mpolo’s claim because there is no evidence.
Post 17: Correction on previous mafia experience, hates jesters.
Post 18: Some responses to questions.
Post 19: Updated reads list (four definitive town, the rest are all town or scum leans), vote Red Ryu.
Post 20: Setup.
Post 21: Lynch poll bookkeeping.
Post 22: Responds to Red Ryu’s demand he vote by pointing out that he is.
Post 23: Willing to switch to GE.

As previously stated here, moody is difficult for me to read. Things I find interesting:

I didn’t like the automatic acceptance of mpolo’s claim, and I was quite suspicious of how moody discussed in two posts how mpolo’s power could be useful to town (and even odder is that his redirect examples focus on things like cops and trackers, why not a kill which is the first thing I thought of or am I the one misunderstanding this role?) It seemed like he wanted to plant a non-threatening townie read of mpolo in everyone’s minds.

The observation that two scum teams are common as of late (I don’t think they are, just Shakespeare unless I’m forgetting something). Then the observation that we’ve only had a couple lately? If he’s scum, he has a guess as to the number of teams based on the size of his team, and would want to mislead us, but which would it be?

His content has been entirely within his meta, mostly responses not questions. I’m reading moody in isolation, and I’m just not seeing anything that screams town or scum at me. I’ll keep thinking about him as I respond to other posts and see if I get a different feel from interactions with others. I’d rather not lynch moody, but wouldn’t stand in the way of his lynch if that’s the majority choice.

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#HBC | Zyth
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:54 am UTC

plytho wrote:What's up with the jimbob wagon? As I went to bed we were converging on Gamma, moody and Ryu (but mostly Gamma and moody) with very little support for a jimbob lynch in the tally. I feel like Zen is going out of his way to avoid lynching those three, first with the dark horse push and now with a fourth alternative lynch. That fourth wagon, besides moving attention off the top three, is also going to make it harder to ensure a majority lynch.

I do not intend to vote jimbob today.


Why are you voting for gamma when Ruy was your next choice after dh 8-)

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:55 am UTC

Maven didn't seem to have to do much to convince you 8-)

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby plytho » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:03 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Why are you voting for gamma when Ruy was your next choice after dh 8-)
Because Ryu had become more active recently which slightly redeems him while Gamma was becoming less active making him look worse. Gamma's post right before my vote was not good enough. I'm still fine with either lynch though.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:05 am UTC

@bessie
@Boom

bessie's analysis of moody leaves him as null, but moody is Boom's strongest scum read. Boom, could you go into detail about why you feel so strongly about moody? Is this not his standard mo as bessie has stated?

bessie, do you think Boom and Sabrar are seeing something you aren't or could there be alterior motives behind the push. Does their moody push follow a solid line of reasoning, based on their posts and your experience with the three of them?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:07 am UTC

plytho wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Why are you voting for gamma when Ruy was your next choice after dh 8-)
Because Ryu had become more active recently


Is activity enough to determine alignment to you?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:10 am UTC

plytho, do you like what Ryu is posting? If so can you point out ehat you like about them? What does it matter if he's posting, if what he's saying isn't useful?

At least gamma made a really good point about Spak. Do you disagree with the point Gamma made about Spak 8-) ?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby plytho » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:13 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Is activity enough to determine alignment to you?
No, it's not. I also didn't see anything particularly scummy in that activity. Gamma and Ryu are very close to each other in my reads list. The lurker that shows up and starts posting looks a little better than the one that doesn't.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby bessie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:15 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:@bessie: I'm very disappointed that you still didn' react to my ping here. Also, who is your D1 tunnel? It would appear to be plytho based on your extensive interaction with him but he's not low enough in your list. Are time issues your only problem?
I guess there’s just too much content for me to do a proper D1 tunnel, sorry to disappoint you! There are so many players that I’ve had to spread my attention out. If we had another few days I think my interest would be drawn toward plytho, jimbobmacdoodle, and Peaceful Whale as a possible team. My best tunnels are usually the ones that start on D2 anyway, so maybe I can redeem myself if I’m around tomorrow.

Sabrar wrote:bessie: I know how she hates it so I'm going to say it anyway: this looks like standard town!bessie. It contains all the elements I expected from her and in the right tone as well. Also this is an excellent post. The only thing that is slightly pinging me is her refraining from setup speculation just because DGamers said it would be waste of time. It's very unlike her to pander to the whims of others (paraphrased). To note: her D1 tunnels are usually right when she's Town.
What am I supposed to respond to? The bessie meta dig? Ok, my style is exactly what you expect, unchanged for at least the past say 18 months? Why are you pointing this out and making sure that I respond to it? And so I love my setup spec, but I’m not dropping it because I’m pandering to our guests. If it was one of our mods I would be all over it, with not only a faction breakdown but a guess as to every role in the game (and I have been known to get it right :P ). By dropping it until at least D2 I’m acknowledging that they know their mod better than I do, and it would be an active lurking waste of time.

plytho wrote:What's up with the jimbob wagon? As I went to bed we were converging on Gamma, moody and Ryu (but mostly Gamma and moody) with very little support for a jimbob lynch in the tally. I feel like Zen is going out of his way to avoid lynching those three, first with the dark horse push and now with a fourth alternative lynch. That fourth wagon, besides moving attention off the top three, is also going to make it harder to ensure a majority lynch.

I do not intend to vote jimbob today.
Oh, that’s interesting.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:16 am UTC

plytho have you looked into any of the things that have been said about jimbob?

plytho what did you think about what I said about Spak in my reads post?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby bessie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:47 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:bessie, do you think Boom and Sabrar are seeing something you aren't or could there be alterior motives behind the push. Does their moody push follow a solid line of reasoning, based on their posts and your experience with the three of them?
It’s going to take me a couple hours to answer this properly, because I would need to reread their content this game, and I just don’t know if I can do it before deadline. So here’s some general thoughts. town!BoomFrog and town!Sabrar could very well be seeing something I’m not seeing. They’re two of the best players on this forum. They’re also two of my favorites. :) I don’t have as much experience with BoomFrog, I think I’ve only played with town BoomFrog. But the amount of push seems reasonable for town Sabrar. For ulterior motives, well why moody? He’s a good player and if he’s town he has good reads, reasonable pick for scum to eliminate early. But mpolo's a good player too and he already claimed a power that could be dangerous to scum, why not go after him? moody has a scummy meta which makes him an easy target for a mislynch, but he’ll be an easy target tomorrow too if he’s not cleared by an investigative result. Did scum!BoomFrog and scum!Sabrar get a fix on moody’s power from his defense of mpolo? They’re both good enough to pick up on any clues I missed. I need to do thar reread to give you more than this.

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plytho
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby plytho » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:48 am UTC

plytho wrote:Btw I’d like Sabrar, BoomFrog, Zen and FrozenFlame to explain how ‘forcing’ an unwilling player to hammer SirG is supposed to work?
This question is still open for BoomFrog, who will answer D2 (hold him to it if I'm not able to) and FrozenFlame.

Ok, I’ve been thinkin about this a little more and I’m going to

FoS: the people trying to ‘force’ someone to lynch SirG

I’ll try to explain why that might be indicative of scum.

SirG claims
His claim is scary both for town and scum
In thread, people start talking about redirecting the scum kill to the bomb
Scum doesn’t like this idea, it makes their job harder.
Scum comes up with a counter plan: try to get SirG lynched. How? Not by sacrificing scum obviously. But a scummy looking townie might do. So they try to push this idea of a ‘forced hammer’. This can go a couple of ways:
1. The wagon forms and the sacrificial townie agrees to be the hammerer: Double scum win: mislynch + indie gone.
2. The wagon forms and the sacrificial townie (or scum) backs out last minute. Another townie decides to sacrifice themselves like Zyth mentioned:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:plytho
Was in in the following section until his last post about what would happen once SirG reached L-1. I had back up plans (the last resort, hammering him myself),

Result: double scum win
3. The wagon forms and the sacrificial townie (or scum) backs out last minute. There’s not enough time to form another wagon: no lynch: scum win

Also:
#HBC | Zyth wrote: Although it could be that scum!plytho brought up the hammer point as a way to get scumBud!Ruy out of that situation.
There was absolutely no need to get Red Ryu out of that situation he was already out. He doesn’t want to do it because of “his role”. This is enough to avoid going along with the plan.

The only way SirG gets lynched is if town decides to make a town sacrifice.

I don’t see a scenario where town win from this. Scum will not hammer, it’s bad for them. So I think one or more of the people that pushed for this are scum.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby bessie » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:59 am UTC

Um, you know, scum probably has a kill. And they know who the claimed redirector is. They have a few chances to hit him before town has enough info to make a good guess on who to redirect to SirGabriel.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby plytho » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:04 am UTC

bessie wrote:Um, you know, scum probably has a kill. And they know who the claimed redirector is. They have a few chances to hit him before town has enough info to make a good guess on who to redirect to SirGabriel.
I know. What are you trying to say here?
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby plytho » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:07 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:plytho have you looked into any of the things that have been said about jimbob?
I'm looking at those two things you point out in your reads list and I just don't see the problem. He's still pretty much null on my list.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:plytho what did you think about what I said about Spak in my reads post?
I like your point about his read on BoomFrog but FMPOV it could be part how spak plays. I'm not liking Spak but I don't see the damning evidence.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:09 am UTC

Have you looked into the points that bessie, Frozen, and Boom have made against jimbob?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:25 am UTC

That is not how Spak plays as town. He is usually more thorough, and tends to tunnel. Here there is nothing of the sort.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby plytho » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:39 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Have you looked into the points that bessie, Frozen, and Boom have made against jimbob?
I haven't thoroughly investigated jimbob based on other peoples points. Looking now: bessie doesn't like his switch from Red Ryu, BoomFrog's arguments are super old, FrozenFlame has a gut scum read, thinking jimbob isn't authentic. These are ok arguments but jimbob has posted some stuff I liked (view on PW, SirG, me), he seems to be thinking along the same line as me. So null for now, won't lynch today.

bessie wrote:
plytho wrote:What's up with the jimbob wagon? As I went to bed we were converging on Gamma, moody and Ryu (but mostly Gamma and moody) with very little support for a jimbob lynch in the tally. I feel like Zen is going out of his way to avoid lynching those three, first with the dark horse push and now with a fourth alternative lynch. That fourth wagon, besides moving attention off the top three, is also going to make it harder to ensure a majority lynch.

I do not intend to vote jimbob today.
Oh, that’s interesting.
Isn't it, though? I go to bed after pushing Zen off the DH lynch and was really wondering which wagon he'd join. I wake up and he's started a new one with low support? Feels to me more like a move away from the existing potential lynch wagons than towards a viable new one.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby plytho » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:39 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:That is not how Spak plays as town. He is usually more thorough, and tends to tunnel. Here there is nothing of the sort.
Thanks, moving him down.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby plytho » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:48 am UTC

Zen is pinging me all over the place, Maven's read on him comes to mind.
Maven89 wrote: I'm only mentioning that he might be scum to let XKCD people know that he has a history of leading the town as scum in case we all die.

Things I don't like about Zen:
-the late DH push (particularly this near lie)
-the late reads list that had been promised for days
-the 4th wagon (it's not the jimbob part I'm bothered by)
-the SirG lynch plan
-the 100% scum read claim without any evidence

@Zen: was jimbob your solid 100% scum read or is it still too soon for clarification? Because your tells on him are far from 100%

btw, this D1 is already larger than all but 2 games (smalltown and shakespeare) on the first page of the mafia subforum :shock:

Evil George Washington wrote: I realize that near deadline it's hard to get a hold of people, and it's causing me to worry and stress.
This is totally where I'm at. I'll be around for another 12 hours, then I'll be asleep so let's get those wagons going.
@all: If you're online and not voting for Ryu, moody or Gamma (or jimbob, I guess :| ) you're playing against town! That includes the people currently voting for Madge. Get on a wagon! You can jump back to Madge once we're sure we'll get there.
Pronouns: he him his
Avatar: The High Frontier by Angus McKie


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