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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:31 pm UTC

@plytho and FF: seriously stop discussing Sir G. It is irrelevant until hammer is reached. You are damaging townies ability to keep up with important content. I'm not dating you're scummy, I'm saying you're causing a problem.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby FrozenFlame » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:42 pm UTC

SirGabriel wrote:It was mod confirmed that anyone who kills me dies, I thought that would make a difference. Don't act like I'm an idiot for making one misjudgment. And please read what I said, I didn't quit because people want to lynch me, I quit because there's no point in getting distracted from irl stuff by a game I've already lost.


Alright well you were silly to think that there simply being the bomb mechanic as a deterrent would make everyone too scared to even touch you despite overtly claiming anti town on D1, and that they would be scared long enough for you to accomplish your wincon, but I'm not really trying to call you an idiot. It's not personal, I'm more just pointing out that you seemed frustrated by your miscalculation and thus were being authentic when you posted your full wincon, followed by being asked to replace out.

I get it if you have more important shit to deal with IRL than this game. Perfectly fine, no judgement here. Not like I would ask an anti town slot to justify throwing the game and thus helping town a bit. You do you man. I was just trying to get Red Ryu to relax his mental grip on your slot.

You're not an idiot and I don't mean to belittle whatever if going that's causing you stress IRL right now. Sorry if it came off that way.

BoomFrog wrote:@plytho and FF: seriously stop discussing Sir G. It is irrelevant until hammer is reached. You are damaging townies ability to keep up with important content. I'm not dating you're scummy, I'm saying you're causing a problem.


Well I wasn't just going to let plytho's renewed call for me to explain what I meant by saying we have a legitimate "force" strategy re: dealing with SirG's slot go answered for the rest of the phase. I'm not just going to ignore his request for an explanation. But your point is well taken. I'm not trying to reignite discussion re: SirG, but rather, close threads that there left open or being kept open due to myopia (i.e. my response to Red Ryu's whole "WE MUST KILL INDIES NOW AARGGRGAGRAGRAGAG" post).

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby SirGabriel » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:01 pm UTC

FrozenFlame wrote:Alright well you were silly to think that there simply being the bomb mechanic as a deterrent would make everyone too scared to even touch you despite overtly claiming anti town on D1

Since when is survivor anti-town?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby FrozenFlame » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:13 pm UTC

SirGabriel wrote:
FrozenFlame wrote:Alright well you were silly to think that there simply being the bomb mechanic as a deterrent would make everyone too scared to even touch you despite overtly claiming anti town on D1

Since when is survivor anti-town?

Since always and forever. Survivor wincons can and do often provide incentive for anti-town collaboration. In late game, if the scum are winning, survivor has a direct incentive to cause more mislynches to ensure the quickest scum victory and thus reduce the number of potential NK's he has to dodge. In a LYLO scenario where one mislynch = scum victory and game ends, survivors have a direct incentive to vote with the scum block to end the game while they're alive. This is elementary, and also why they are toxic roles as they often function as kingmakers.

Plus you're aren't even a pure survivor anyway so this is kind of beside the point. You're a warlock and clearly anti town.

This convo is probably triggering Boomfrog though so I'm not really going to engage with you on this anymore. If you're legitimately confused about why survivors are to be treated as anti-town, you can hit me up after the game or after one or both of us dies or something and I can explain it in greater detail.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby plytho » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:03 pm UTC

FrozenFlame wrote:So yeah I'll try to be as available as possible as deadline approaches. I'm stick with the Jim wagon but if people are that bent out of shape about it I think Gamma is a great alternative. This moody wagon gives me really bad vibes
If you're serious about the Gamma move you need to get that organized. This only works if you round up people willing to switch at a predetermined time, well before deadline. Everyone switches at the same time, if it's not enough, switch right back to something viable. Otherwise you might have people that switched but can't switch back because they're asleep.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby FrozenFlame » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:11 pm UTC

plytho wrote:
FrozenFlame wrote:If you're serious about the Gamma move you need to get that organized. This only works if you round up people willing to switch at a predetermined time, well before deadline. Everyone switches at the same time, if it's not enough, switch right back to something viable. Otherwise you might have people that switched but can't switch back because they're asleep.

I'm seriously about being willing to move to Gamma if people prefer that lynch to Jimbob but obviously I'm not going to mobilize a shift off jimbob, who I would prefer to lynch, just to move to Gamma. I'm just saying that if Gamma becomes a wagon I'll be around to and will move to it if we end up deciding jimbob is definitively not a play.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:21 pm UTC

Spak, choose a wagon.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:33 pm UTC

smh should've went for Spak.

Vote: moody

Let's mobilize.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby FrozenFlame » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:53 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:smh should've went for Spak.

Vote: moody

Let's mobilize.

But...but... scumbob... :(

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Spak » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:55 pm UTC

A lot less quoting and a lot more reading because I need to be informed by deadline.

bessie wrote:Spak – Needs some more content, and needs to come back and update his read on BoomFrog, now that BoomFrog has offered explanations for some of the things in Spak's read of him. And some reads on other players would be nice too, I don’t see a clear opinion on anyone else. Slight scum lean.

I'm still leaning scum on BoomFrog. He hasn't addressed the questions & accusations for him on page 13, and everyone sorta went "yeah, his explanation made sense to me" after he didn't respond to the push (which admittedly isn't entirely his fault because I wasn't there to enforce the push).

Madge wrote:Given my role is a real role (you need to get N/2 votes to activate each of your three powers: X1, X2 and X3) - how would you play it if you'd gotten it?

I'd forgotten about your role... The self-vote makes a lot more sense now.

On Dark Horse: I don't think we should kill him if there's a possibility of a replacement. With that said, we wouldn't want him reaching endgame because nobody would get caught up in time if they were to replace in (assuming town!Dark Horse).

Also, I fail to see why everyone still thinks Madge is automatically town. Sure meta has a little bit to do with things, but at least from my experience, meta doesn't play a big enough role to guarantee an alignment. Ryu seems to be the only one who's acknowledged that Madge's role could be identical to what he's stating, but just indie instead of town.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:If Spak doesn't start posting, he needs to be the D1 lynch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpfhcljJ9bQ

For someone has decided there's only one person they'll lynch today you sure seem to change your mind a lot.

This post legitimately made me chuckle. +1 for you, sir lol.

I've never played with Zen, but the way in which she's kinda all over the place bugs me that late in the phase. She seems to lack clear direction which, while unpredictable and might catch someone sometime, seems to be more of just hunting for the sake of hunting and not making much out of the pushes that she begins.

@Other DGamers who have played on the site longer than me (and have played with Zen), is this normal Zen play, or does it seem off in comparison to what you've seen in the past?

Will continue later.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Sabrar » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:28 pm UTC

FrozenFlame wrote:Do you really think Jimbob is the easiest target for that? Why wouldn't Zen push Red Ryu, or Gamma who's arguably more inactive?
Unless we nailed the whole scum-team D1 I don't really know.

FrozenFlame wrote:I guess a big part of this too is I just didn't see a ton of moody momentum building before the jimbob wagon took off
This is before Zen starts her push. Not sure what you need to call it a ton but he was leading at the moment and was second in the tally.

@Zen: what is this based upon? How many games of scum!jimbob did you observe?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:26 pm UTC

Ok, I'm at my hotel, and have about an hour or so before going to bed in which I can post. I am going to try to compile responses to things addressed to me, or about me. If there's anything else people want to ask me or think that I should look at again, please say so, and I'll try to do so.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:46 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Ok, I'm at my hotel, and have about an hour or so before going to bed in which I can post. I am going to try to compile responses to things addressed to me, or about me. If there's anything else people want to ask me or think that I should look at again, please say so, and I'll try to do so.

What are your current opinions on Moody, Red Ryu, Spak and Gamma Emerald?
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:47 pm UTC

FrozenFlame wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:smh should've went for Spak.

Vote: moody

Let's mobilize.

But...but... scumbob... :(

I tried, but it's not possible without either George or Boom, based on wagonomics.

I don't think I'll be able to make another post today. Moody is the play. Anyone not on that wagon needs to hop over immediately.

@ruy @spak @whale @mpolo

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Peaceful Whale » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:59 pm UTC

Make up your mind...
Unvote.

Vote: Moody
My meta for future reference
Spoiler:
cemper93 wrote:Your meta appears to be "just writes whatever is on his mind and doesn't remember what happened more than five hours ago"

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:08 pm UTC

In this post, I went back to the beginning and searched for references to me to see if I didn't respond to some things that needed responses.
FrozenFlame wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Scattered brief thoughts, based on a skim read, because I should be working: PeacefulWhale looks more like his second (i.e. scum) game than his first (i.e. town) game currently, but I want to see more before I definitively label him one way or the other. Red Ryu looks like they're not putting much effort in. Not sure what to make with Zyth's assertions about being so good - not sure I get the points he's making about PeacfulWhale or heuristically_alone, but I don't have time to look more thoroughly into them.

@Maven89 - why is bus driver not a pro-town role? (No time to look up the role, but I vaguely recall it as being perfectly reasonable to have as town).

No more time. Will try to find some time at lunch to post more reactions.

Are you sure the bolded isn't just you buying some time to see how the group ends up treating PeacefulWhale for that move so that you can posture accordingly and avoid being scrutinized for following the pack? Cause thats how that reads to me
I think I kind of addressed this already, but my thinking at the time, and still is now, that with only one game of each side (and replaced out in his townie one), there is insufficient data to determine whether he has a "scum style". I wanted to wait to see more content from him. Some of what he has said now, and more importantly, the way he has acted feels townie. I wouldn't have been confident at the time of posting to say for certain that he is definitely town or scum, just as with many other players.
bessie wrote:If applying pressure is unacceptable, what would you consider reasonable D1 content?
Can't remember if I fully responded to this one, but let me restate it here. Applying pressure is fine, but I still don't think it's right to apply pressure on nits or differences in play style. Pressure should be applied for people saying bad or dumb things, refusing to answer questions, voting without reasoning, that sort of thing. There's all sorts of stuff that can be done, but applying pressure to somebody for not placing a vote so early in the Day really isn't one of those things, at least in my opinion (I accept that people like SDK do this, but I don't personally like it).
bessie wrote:I don’t understand your comment. Gamma Emerald did more than plant an idea, he straight out said mpolo would be a safe lynch. Are you trying to plant an idea about Gamma Emerald?
Yeah, I phrased that one badly. Trying to explain my phrasing: "Not sure, but perhaps trying to plant an idea in town's mind, that we should lynch him, but without pushing too much?" - what I mean is that Gamma Emerald suggested a "safe lynch" i.e. one that we could fall back on if we couldn't find a good scum-candidate - planting an idea in town's mind that it might be better to lynch mpolo, rather than risk mislynching somebody with an important power. I'm probably not explaining myself any better now though...
bessie wrote:And what’s wrong with jumping on minor bits of terminology and blowing them out of proportion? You just described the greater part of my playstyle
Not sure if this was intended as a joke or not, but everybody says things differently, and has slightly different meanings of what the words they write are to others. I have seen time and again arguments about one or two words, where the problem was entirely because one person understood them differently to someone else (plytho versus Sabrar in a recent game springs to mind, but I've been involved in them to).

To plytho, moody, and anybody else who has asked for more content from me, assuming I survive to D2, I expect to get back to normal posting levels for me on Monday. At some point before the end of D2, I will make sure to give a thorough read on everybody, if nothing unexpected happens.
FrozenFlame wrote:JImbob's contributions feel completing inauthentic and devoid of scumhunting intent. He also never responded to my half assed accusation of him re: him trying to camp out on deciding on a read re: Peaceful whale's early game. Not much content from him to work with to flesh out this read but frankly I think he's my strongest gut scum read right now
Again, I think I've noted this elsewhere, but I've simply not had the time to go back and look at everything that might have needed responding to until now. When I see a vague "half assed" accusation against me, I often ignore it anyway, in favour of looking for scum, if it didn't contain a question - in your case, I thought the question was rhetorical, if I'm honest, until you brought it up again here.
Evil George Washington wrote:jimbobmacdoodle - Null-Scum. One thing I dislike about Jimbo is that he posts an opinion and doesn’t really re-evaluate. It makes it easy for him to mention a person and not have to mention them again. If this is the case, if he has such little time to post, why would he mention Boom Frog at an early stage of the game and say ‘nothing to see here’ and then later in the game when there is content, doesn’t mention him at all. I also dislike his reads on Maven and Moody.
At the time, I'd hoped to be able to post a short read on every player, even if it was "nothing to say here" at the time. Unfortunately, time was even tighter than I expected, hence my lack of follow-up/re-evaluation of BoomFrog. He hasn't given me a gut scum feeling, hence why I haven't looked back at him since. I will make sure to do so on D2, as mentioned above.

@bessie - spoilered because not really relevant to this game:
Spoiler:
You mentioned my "changed the setup" comment from Dark Tower. Although I admit I was scum, I think this was not a scum-tell. I'd almost certainly have said the same thing as Town. I was comparing the game's setup to the previous one Sabrar had modded (Dollhouse, I think?), so changing the setup was in reference to that, i.e. take that game as the starting point, and change a few things about it.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree about the wording argument though - yes scum do sometimes get picked up on it, but as noted above, it's just as likely to cause a town on town argument.
Sabrar wrote:Later he is still wishy-washy about him, definitely looks like hedging. Also hedging about Zen. Read on moody looks weird, he remembers enough of his earlier claims to know that moody is more active than usual but doesn't remember that moody is almost always the first to make a read-list as either alignment so gives him townie-points for it?
I am naturally a cautious player (at least, that's how it feels to me), so when I don't have as much time to make up my mind, I end up being somewhat non-committal in my reads sometimes - I haven't forced myself this game to assign evey player to being either scum or town, and make an ordered list, due to time constraints. I honestly had forgotten that moody is often the first to make a reads list.

This is up to the end of page 11. Will continue in a bit, but I see I have a notification...
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:16 pm UTC

Peaceful Whale wrote:Make up your mind...
Unvote.

Vote: Moody

There's a lot to be learned from who is willing to switch and who isn't and why. These last few pages will be a gold mine once we learn Moody's alignment, and even better after we learn a bunch of people's alignments.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:34 pm UTC

Ok, I see BoomFrog wants me to post some opinions on specific players - I'll get back to that after finishing the rest of my responses, as I want to save re-reading players and posting updated opinions until then.

On with the responses...

@BoomFrog - you said that you were waiting for me to respond to your accusations on me on page 13. Have I addressed all of them, or did I miss something?

#HBC | Zyth wrote:jimbobmacdoodle
1. "bessie - her one post is pretty standard bessie style. I like what she point out about Zyth (pointing out own townieness, assuming one scum team), and to a lesser extent about PeacefulWhale (repeatedly emphasising his newbie status, similar to his previous game where he was scum)."

The bolded is such a convoluted thing to say, and I can only see it coming from a scum mindset (town players in tunnel mode also do things like this, but that's not relevant here). What does this even mean? Town do not make statements like this. They can like something, dislike something, and be unsure of something, but there's no value in medium-liking something. Convoluted statements like these indicate that jim is scissor-cutting and piecing together a pseudo-read rather than genuinely feeling out bessie.

2. "In your case, it was a little more subtle, and although it definitely could be coming from a townie, it could also be an attempt to subtly impress on other players the idea that you are definitely town, if they aren't thinking critically enough."

The bolded is an absurd assumption. This is sort of similar to what I pointed out with Madge. jimbob know's that his reasoning falls apart and uses an absurd assumption to justify it. Town has no reason to force an argument like this. I myself have caught myself typing up a point, realizing it doesn't hold, and just deleting it. Scum jim needs to post content though, so he couldn't afford to abandon it.
The first part is exactly what I mean about wording differences and people over-thinking them. "To a lesser extent" in this context means that in a vacuum, I would find bessie townier for the first statement, than the second. In both cases, I would have her on the town-side of the neutral line. I don't get what the difference is between saying that I "liked" something to some degree or other than saying I found somebody "townie" to some degree or other. If you'd played with me previously, you would know that I use that sort of phrasing regularly (though maybe not literally those words). I also am pretty sure I'm not the only one who has done so this game. This is either a case of town-tunnelling, or of you trying to force a case on me. As for the second point, I admit it's a bit of a stretch, but I stand by it as a possibility, nothing more. I do not know what motive you have for what you have posted, but I could see a negative one, hence why I raised it.

@bessie - I'll come back to your question on me regarding Red Ryu in my next post, once I do my updated reads as requested by BoomFrog.

Evil George Washington wrote:I have noticed Jimbob has not been posting, Zen. I need to re-read him.
Sorry about that - since my lunchtime post yesterday, I've had zero time and energy, apart from one period without internet on a ferry.

All caught up. Now to reads on the players requested. These will of necessity be brief, as I should be going to bed.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby plytho » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:55 pm UTC

I think we're two from lynch now. This will be my last post of the Day.

Reply to FF's SirG lynch plan, don't read until hammer this isn't vital right now:
Spoiler:
FrozenFlame wrote:Step 1: We determine who we think is scummiest and tell them "Hey you, you're gonna hammer SirG for us because we think you're scummy anyway and this way we can kill two birds with one stone."
That's your biggest problem right there. Determining who's scummiest is very hard. We just wrote over 800 posts to do just that today. Good luck getting a quick consensus.

The rest can work but still kills a townie, I'd rather redirect the bomb to scum. GlaDos isn't a threat to town for now, she is a threat for scum. That's why I suspect the plan came from/was supported by scum.

We kind of did your plan today btw and it failed. Red Ryu was top scum read. People decided he'd have to hammer the bomb. He said he wouldn't because of his role. Step 4 didn't happen. And I think it can't happen, you need a very strong consensus early enough to try this and that's very unusual in this game.


Open questions going into D2:
-BoomFrog's secret scum read?
-Zen's secret 100% scum read?
-What do you think of my suspicion on Zen

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby plytho » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:59 pm UTC

One more thing: DGamers, go join us in Gojoe. It's a fun way to share your thoughts on the game as it is played. Don't read the spoilers for this game and put everything you write in a spoiler.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:09 pm UTC

Sabrar: Do you consider Jimbob Bessie's D1 tunnel? How do you feel about her read change on Peace Whale?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:10 pm UTC

Reads on Red Ryu, moody, Gamma Emerald, and Spak. The last I said on these three in any depth was this post and this one for moody.

moody: Since my previous read of moody, he has posted an updated and substantial reads list. The thing that stands out to me on this is that he votes for Red Ryu (labelled as neutral to slightly scummy), but without any significant reasoning as to why Red Ryu is scummy, unlike his other scum reads. He later suggests that he would also support Gamma's lynch, whom he had provided a least a brief explanation for why. I must admit that I like the fact that he didn't just jump onto the wagon for me, when he was an obvious alternative candidate. However, I still have him as slightly-scummy overall, based on my earlier concerns, and that bit about Red Ryu and lack of obvious reasoning.

Red Ryu: I previously had Red Ryu as my top pick, but that was before he started posting yesterday onwards. In particular, I previously didn't think much of his efforts (or lack thereof) to scum hunt, and his reads were not great. However, since yesterday, I see an increase in activity, and attempts to answer questions and discuss points, which was more than he previously was doing - hence my "upswing" comment earlier referred to by bessie. In particular, his series of posts in conversation with Zyth just seems to be an indication to me that his efforts and activity in the game are picking up, and don't seem to be forced from a scum perspective. I would like to give some more reads and explanations though. He's still got a way to go before making up for his early content (or lack thereof), but he is moving in the direction of townie.

Gamma Emerald: His earlier content was pretty poor, as I pointed out in my previous read of him. I quite liked Maven's argument against him, and it's fed into my scum read of him, since they more or less lined up with my own thoughts. I was going to say that I liked that Gamma gave reasons behind his four lynch candidates (which I do), only to see the clear OMGUS on Maven in there (aside: I'm leaning town on Maven at the moment). I also think that he's ignoring the likely case that Spak missed that Madge had a reasonable reason to self-vote. He's not done anything really to help town, as far as I can see. Definitely a strong scum read. In fact, now that I've had a proper re-read, I'd be more inclined to support Gamma's lynch over moody's, but there's no sign of that wagon going anywhere any more, and this will be my last post before deadline, so I won't be switching my vote.

Spak: My previous read of him was townie, and if anything, it's gotten better. He genuinely seems to be trying to put effort in and catch up, when there was no real pressure for him to do so. He acknowledges his mistake on Madge, and raises an interesting point against Zyth.

Bed time was about half an hour ago, so that will be it for me today. Goodnight, and hopefully two players will vote moody to finish things off (or a mad charge results in Gamma getting lynched instead).
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby FrozenFlame » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:11 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:
FrozenFlame wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:smh should've went for Spak.

Vote: moody

Let's mobilize.

But...but... scumbob... :(

I tried, but it's not possible without either George or Boom, based on wagonomics.

I don't think I'll be able to make another post today. Moody is the play. Anyone not on that wagon needs to hop over immediately.

@ruy @spak @whale @mpolo

I hate it when the harsh realities of wagonomics kills muh dreamz =( (btw wagonomics is a new term to me, very fresh, do like)

Also jimbob is up in here putting in helllllllla effort right now despite the wagon on him collapsing lol. That's actually a pretty good look. If could have it my way I would probably still prefer Gamma as the play but that's completely unrealistic. And there's no way in hell we can let this go to no lynch. Alas wagonomics wins this time

Unvote: Jimbob

Vote: Moody7277


@ Plytho:

Your criticisms of the "force someone to hammer SirG" strategy are very fair, but also not particularly poignant. For example, you say that it is difficult to get consensus as to who is scummiest, but this is always true of pretty much every day phase, particularly in the early game, which for our purposes here re: dealing with Glados before she becomes a problem, early game consensus building is all that is relevant. Basically, it's no harder to build consensus around who ought to hammer SirG than it is to build consensus around who to lynch. This is illustrated particularly well by the fact that the entire basis for being able to "force" someone to hammer SirG is the threat of pain of lynch if the selected person doesn't comply. So almost definitionally, the amount of consensus needed to put this plan into effect is no harder than simply deciding on a lynch. It's just that we'd need to wagon SirG to L-1 early enough to give us time to react to, and lynch, a noncompliant hammer selection.

Red Ryu refusing to hammer in this scenario is different because he hasn't clearly been established as the lynch for the day. If we could definitively say that we were going to lynch him anyway if he didn't comply, and we had real force behind that threat, then I would hope Red Ryu would change his tune. If he didn't, he'd be guilty of being a selfish anti-town fuckwad if he refused to comply as a townie after being condemned by the majority of the players. Or he could just be scum, in which case lynching him for noncompliance is fantastic for us. Worst case we make a town/indy trade which isn't all that bad if made this early in the game.

Again I totally agree with you that there's no harm in seeing if the slot can be/will be dealt with during night phase. But we can't rely on that. Hence why I think it's important to recognize this as an option that we really ought exercise before D4 if SirG's slot proves sticky.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Madge » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 pm UTC

Just checking in. I'm ready to change my vote to help achieve hammer if need be. I'll be on in a couple more hours so I'll let it sit for a bit, even though it looks like my power won't activate (guys, we need to keep some unofficial votals, and once we get to L-1 put me up to 6 votes before hammer.)

I also just realised that I misread my role PM and - I am not kidding and can prove this if necessary - if I kill anyone, including with a hammer vote, I become a Tree Stump (can post but not vote or use abilities). So I can't hammer - well, I can hammer, but it kind of neuters me. But if the alternative is a no-lynch I will hammer and become a Tree Stump and hang my head in shame for not thinking of that detail.

Various Guests, please note that we tend to play with indies being town friendly - or at least town being friendly to indies! Once I was indie and town had the game in the bag but let the game go two more days so I'd get my win as indie. So I can see why SirG wouldn't think anything of claiming indie, without knowing the meta you guys brought over. Hope that helps!
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Sabrar » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:18 pm UTC

@EGW: Why did you all wait with posting until I was in bed? :(
I just checked recently, jimbob was not in bessie's original 4, only as add-in in case of mod-kill iirc. Wouldn't consider him as D1 tunnel.
Don't remember bessie having a big change of heart on PW, will check.
Set alarm at 5:30 (half an hour before deadline) just in case. Do you have an app that can turn it off if someone hammers inbetween? :)

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:21 pm UTC

Sorry dude! :P I'm wide awake now and at work.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Madge » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:26 pm UTC

BTW, the fact my tree stumpitude is caused by killing anyone in any way, including a hammer vote, is probably what made me suspect that SirG's bomb is activated by the person who hammers him, since it put in my head that hammer = killing.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:29 pm UTC

Yet you expected Sabrar to know that fact too. :?:

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:40 pm UTC

We are theoretically at L-1 now and any further votes should go on Madge. If she has 6 we should hammer Moody.

@Moody, can you be a pal and vote for Madge?

@JimBob: I think you've responded to my accusations, and also, literally unrelated to that, I also am happy we didn't lynch you.

Anyone with a vote that's not on Madge or Moody is hurting town. Either vote for Madge or declare you think Sabrar and I are wrong and you're choosing not to. If that's the case I think you should still help her D1 as Indy Madge probably needs 3 days of success to hurt town, so then we're still getting the help of a useful power D1 by cooperating with her.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:42 pm UTC

Anyone with a vote that's not on Madge or Moody is hurting town.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:47 pm UTC

Spak, #HBC | Red Ryu, Bessie, mpolo, Gamma Emerald, heuristically_alone, Dark Horse :roll: , Moody

Can someone else do the quote ping thing? I'm on mobile and supposed to be working.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:50 pm UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Sorry dude! :P I'm wide awake now and at work.

Temporarily change your vote to Madge so that Moody can self hammer and ruin the Madge plan. I don't want to do it because I won't be in at deadline.

Vote Madge
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby moody7277 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:51 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:@Moody, can you be a pal and vote for Madge?


Eh, I guess I could do that; she a nice lady. Maybe she can help you with Spak, PW, and jimbob.

oops :P :twisted:

Vote: Madge
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:54 pm UTC

EBWOP: so Moody can't* self hammer
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Spak » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:08 pm UTC

On the SirG kill: I was gonna complain that killing a bomber was a bad idea because it'd leave us with an even number, but the setup started with 20 anyways. I see very few downsides to having someone suspicious hammering SirG if we think his claim is legitimate and he's not using it as a front to get voted and trigger some sort of other ability.

Evil George Washington]How is that not present here? Tell me, can we do wagon analysis on an indy lynch D1? It's mostly that and I don't know for sure if it's hammer, or first vote on wagon, or random person on wagon gets killed. I'd rather focus on a scum lynch and if we need to, focus on the Indy D2 so we still have some information from D1.[/quote]
If the indy claim is legitimate, we'll have the confirmed alignment of whoever hammered him SirG.

[quote="Madge wrote:
I'm not a nuke in any way. Nobody gets hurt for voting for me, killing me, hammering me, or anything. You're free to vote and unvote me as you please.

That's what they all say :P

plytho wrote:I'm going to keep my eye on the people pushing the SirG lynch wagon without a proper finishing plan. What do you expect? Do you seriously think the top scum read would happily hammer? The only way this could go in my mind is that we get to 10 votes, find out nobody wants to hammer and need to scramble for an alternative lynch. Which could be quite difficult near deadline since, as bessie mentioned, some of us won't be around. (I'll be asleep) It feels like an easy way to distract town.

This is also a possibility. Someone hammering SirG is essentially them killing themselves (assuming SirG is telling the truth). I think modkilling the slot is the only for everyone to agree to actually killing the confirmed Indy slot since nobody wants to die.

bessie wrote:She’s self voting to try and activate her power.

Yup, thanks for the catch. Just remembered that earlier today.

Evil George Washington wrote:I don't do policy lynches.

Evil George Washington wrote:I still support a Dark Horse lynch too by the way.

This is a rather quick change of opinion.

plytho wrote:Plan for Madge: She’s supposed to be town with 3 powers that need to be charged with votes. Risk: she’s actually indie that needs three half lynches to win.

If we get her the 6 votes she needs now she can prove her helpfulness with her power. If she proves it she’s more likely town and we can do it again. Risk: She’s indie that needs three half lynches to win but also gets powers? Solution: don’t do the third half lynch

Bigger risk: she only needs two half lynches to win and made up the third so we’d feel safe to do the second. How devious is Madge?

Finally, someone aside from Ryu is considering the possibility of indy!Madge!

I don't really see why everyone's being so hard on Ryu; he's playing as I'd normally expect him to, and find his analyses fairly convincing.

Sabrar wrote:Current tally:

Code: Select all

Moody           6
Red Ryu         6
Gamma Emerald   5
SirGabriel      3
Dark Horse      2
Spak            2
BoomFrog        1
jimbob          1

What does this table record? It's clearly not votes because it's not accurate to the votecount lower on the same page.

(In reference to Maven's post at viewtopic.php?f=53&t=123409&start=600#p4244293):
I found the case against Gamma to be good. It showed me that he's gotten away with doing nothing pretty much all game, while trying to still look active. I know what it's like to be troubled with being super busy and falling behind because college (which is why I've been trying to catch up for the past couple hours), but he's not even trying to scumhunt.

Gamma Emerald wrote:I don't like this. He seems to be deliberately ignoring the context to force this. scummy imo.

Fair. I completely forgot about the claimed power and it read as kind of RVS-ish, so I thought it was just a late RVS vote. But Bessie already pointed out the error of my ways, so I apologize to Madge.

Gamma Emerald wrote:Maven: looks to be skipping around looking for scummy things instead of actually sorting me

The OMGUS is strong in this one lol
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:13 pm UTC

Spak wrote:This is a rather quick change of opinion.


Dark Horse isn't a policy lynch, he is a lurker lynch. I am always against policy lynches. Explain to me how you believe lynching Dark Horse is policy. How do you feel with Dark Horse not being lynched today, having not played at all, yet having viewed the game?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:15 pm UTC

@Spack: please vote for Madge or engage with why you don't want to. The lynch is decided, it's Moody.

That table was a record of people's top four lynch targets.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:16 pm UTC

I'm not voting Madge.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:20 pm UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:I'm not voting Madge.

I'm assuming you believe she is Indy and a great risk to town. Do you think she will win after one successful half-lynching? Even if she is Indy she will pretend to be town N1 and help us and we can refuse to help her more D2. There is no risk yet and there is at least a small reward.

OS games seem to be about making tough decisions in complex situation with hidden information. I think we can gain by being strategic instead of knee-jerking away.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:24 pm UTC

Tell me more about why you believe she is town over indy or scum. Then tell me how you would expect scum / indy her to play. I am null on her and don't rule out the possibility of her being indy.


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