Reads of everyone else in alphabetical order.Bessie:
I appreciate that bessie’s very systematic playstyle is having difficulty keeping up with a thread that moves this fast, so her posts are a bit time-delayed compared to where the thread is often at. On first pass my impression of bessie was that she was spending a lot of time discussing PW with plytho and not engaged in too much else, but on reread I’m really liking most of her content. I find myself agreeing with most of her player assessments, and even those that I don’t (eg. Peaceful Whale), her reasoning is solid.
bessie wrote:Dark Horse – After what I’ve heard about DGames culture, I think his replacement is going to have a tough job.
Don’t worry, I brought my A game.@bessie
: Of the early claimers, mpolo, SirG, Madge, and PW, who do you honestly see as having been an alternate lynch candidate? @bessie
: You mention in your read
that jimbob generally doesn’t lurk as scum. How many games have you played with him as scum?@bessie
: You were reading Gamma, Ryu, and jimbob as your ordered scummiest reads
. Why did you decide to vote jimbob here
when Gamma was a better wagon at the time and you thought he was scummier?
I settled on bessie as third member of Zyth’s team for a couple reasons. First is the comment Zyth made about jimbob being the strongest scum on the team. This feels like bessie’s read to me. Moody hasn’t played many recent games with jimbob, so I suspect he’d be more cautious. Bessie has, IMHO, an inflated evaluation of jimbob’s ability as a scum player that I’ve never seen any other player on these forums express. Jimbob has played scum about as frequently as bessie (ie. basically never), so most players probably shouldn’t have an opinion there, but bessie thinks quite highly of his scum play (I’ll try to dig out a quote from an older game if I can find it).
Second, I am troubled by one of bessie’s posts late in the day. This is the only part of her content that really stood out to me as truly awful. Here’s the post
that she voted for jimbob in:
From my town-scum list, my current lynch candidates would be Gamma Emerald, Red Ryu, and jimbobmacdoodle. Red Ryu has posted the bulk of his content since I made that list, but from a quick skim nothing is standing out as townie to me. BoomFrog asked me to reread moody, and I’m trying to get to it, but he currently is not one of my top lynch candidates. jimbob’s felt scummy to me this game, and I don’t like this:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Red Ryu's content has taken a significant positive upswing, so I no longer want him lynched.
Why? Is it now Red Ryu is an actual real lynch candidate so he needed to move that vote? There are so many posts right now I’m trying to get a feel for the way the wagons were forming today but it’s three pages of content and I suppose I’m not getting the same feel that I would if I were following it in real time. Really not liking jimbob's content today.
Bessie’s reasoning for voting here is uncharacteristically weak. It’s a big game with lots happening, but jimbob’s content is not so substantial (he only had 13 posts at this point), and I have a very hard time believing that if this were a proper read she wouldn’t have made the time to point out every little detail of her concerns with jimbob. Because that’s what she does. I can see her saying “I don’t have time right now, but I’m voting for jimbob to keep the wagon moving. Will post more later.” But this isn’t what we get. She never comes back to jimbob after this point. My feeling is that Zyth felt that his wagon on jimbob was about to collapse and needed another player to come forward and vote. As I noted, I think the strategy was to lynch a player from the other scum team, so they didn’t want the wagon to end up as a race between moody and Gamma, who is presumably (scummy-looking) Town, with them all on the wrong wagon. Zyth posts here
that “bessie will join us” (ie. the jimbob wagon) 2 minutes after bessie changes her vote to jimbob, even though she was reading Gamma and Ryu as scummier (and Gamma was ahead in the votes). As written, it doesn’t sound like he knows that bessie has posted this, but it comes in very quickly and confidently after her vote, but it isn't a ninja edit.
produces a very detailed reread of moody that Zyth quickly
(20 min later) turns around to try to move people off of moody. Note how much more effort and detail went into this than her lynch target. I don’t think bessie really believes her read of jimbob. She doesn’t even really give a reason for it. Compare the above with what she ultimately says about moody in this post:
I didn’t like the automatic acceptance of mpolo’s claim, and I was quite suspicious of how moody discussed in two posts how mpolo’s power could be useful to town (and even odder is that his redirect examples focus on things like cops and trackers, why not a kill which is the first thing I thought of or am I the one misunderstanding this role?) It seemed like he wanted to plant a non-threatening townie read of mpolo in everyone’s minds.
The observation that two scum teams are common as of late (I don’t think they are, just Shakespeare unless I’m forgetting something). Then the observation that we’ve only had a couple lately? If he’s scum, he has a guess as to the number of teams based on the size of his team, and would want to mislead us, but which would it be?
His content has been entirely within his meta, mostly responses not questions. I’m reading moody in isolation, and I’m just not seeing anything that screams town or scum at me. I’ll keep thinking about him as I respond to other posts and see if I get a different feel from interactions with others. I’d rather not lynch moody, but wouldn’t stand in the way of his lynch if that’s the majority choice.
She can’t find a single positive thing to comment on in moody’s play and picks out two legitimately scummy points, yet sees nothing that reads town or scum? Even if she doesn’t come to a strong conclusion here, the read is at least well-reasoned. This post feels like genuine bessie. Post on jimbob feels half-hearted and opportunistic. These two posts were done on the same day, within hours of each other, so it's not like bessie didn't have the time to do a proper commentary on jimbob.
I think bessie is probably scum with Zyth and moody.
A lot of people disagreed with this post
early on, which attracted a lot of the initial suspicion, but I mostly agree with the conclusions here and the reasoning, especially when he later explains in more detail, seems okay. BoomFrog is much more upfront
about his explanations for his reads than he often is in the early stages of the game. @BoomFrog
: In recent games we’ve played together, you’ve often been more “cagey” than I’m seeing you play here. How is your approach different this game from some of the previous ones?
Very little for me to disagree with in his reads here
, and gets on the moody train early
, stays on and helps rally the wagon. Looks townie.@BoomFrog
: What’s your read on bessie?
Very systematic, asking lots of questions, demanding answers, consistently following up, revising opinions based on new information. First reads list are very concise and seem well reasoned. I find it hard to get a sense of his opinions outside of that due to his very terse posting style. Needs to post more walls. Feels townie.@EGW:
Have you played with scum!Zyth before? What is he like?
Don’t love a lot of his early content, especially this post
which is using a lot of words to say very little. I’m wary of the early buddying of Sabrar (and later, plytho). Content looks better as the day goes on. Early read on jimbob looks solid, as does most of his later content, though he doesn't really make much of an effort to update his read. This post
explaining why the SirG strategy works is really solid. Was one of the people pushing the jimbob wagon. Late switch to moody wagon could be a bus, but I’m not really feeling it. I think if Frozen were on moody's team he would have tried harder to protect him. Leaning town at this point.@FrozenFlame
: Do you have an updated read on jimbob?
: Not much to like here. Active lurky (mostly just lurky) throughout most of D1. Sheeps
Zyth on jimbob vote, doesn’t really contribute anything to the discussion there. I don’t really like any of his content at all. Looks scummy.@Gamma Emerald
: Can we expect better content from you today? I'd rather not have to lynch you, but your current play will make a big liability in the endgame.@Gamma Emerald
: Why did you settle on jimbob instead of moody to vote?
Not much to like here either. I will have to go back and see which games heury has played in, because certainly in recent history there haven’t been that many games with two mafia teams, which makes his point about it in his first point stand out quite a bit
. He then gets into a discussion with Zyth that has heury coming off pretty badly, particularly this
, where he’s more concerned about being seen as scummy than actually finding scum. His reads are quite dreadful
. I particularly don’t like that he repeatedly makes comments to the effect of “This looks okay, but could be scum”. Constantly hedging. The only thing that really stands out in the positive to me is his defense of Peaceful Whale. Prod dodged on Monday with a promise of reads by the end of the day, AWOL since. Looks scummy.@heury
: What happened to you in the latter half of D1?
HUGE read flag in his first post
where he assumes that there’s two scum teams, and then backtracks that one might just be an SK.
I'm assuming two scum teams, but one might just be a Serial Killer or similar.
This phrasing is awkward and not at all how I would expect jimbob to reason this. Scum + SK is quite common around here. Two scum teams is not. Compare this post
early in Shakespeare Mafia (a few months ago) where Town!jimbob calls out a bunch of people for discussing two scum teams as a possibility early:
I find it interesting that people have immediately jumped to two scum teams instead of the more traditional (around these parts) SK + scum team. I'd like explanations on why people think this, from LaserGuy, Gopher of Pern, Yoloswag, and anybody else who believes there to be two scum teams. If there are two anti-town factions (where faction is a co-aligned set of players with two or more to their number), there is no reason to assume that they both simply want to eliminate all opposition (e.g. Smalltown 2 had a faction that needed to survive to D6 to win). We cannot even assume that they are of the same size. I wouldn't be entirely surprised by two factions myself, but if there are I doubt they'll be mirrors of each other.
Jimbob was right to call this out (two of the three people mentioned, YOLO and myself were scum), and also doesn’t treat an SK as a “faction” here. The change in mindset between these two is very dubious. Scum points to Sabrar for not catching this already.@jimbob
: Can you explain how you arrived at the conclusion there are two scumteams? Can you explain the discrepancies between these quotes?
are a lot like heury’s. Wishy-washy with lots of hedging. He’s low on time, but spends a lot of that time telling us about his null reads. Here
he’s reading plytho is scum, but all of the commentary he’s posted on plytho seems quite positive. Pretty much all of the commentary jimbob makes about his scum reads applies equally well to himself, so there’s that too. @jimbob
: Why were you reading plytho as scummy here when all your commentary of him is positive? What do you think about plytho defending you from the lynch at the end of D1?
I don’t like his commentary here about lurker lynches
. Much like plytho’s argument against the SirG maneuver, he’s reading a fairly townie play as scummy because he isn’t in a townie frame of mind.@jimbob
: What do you think is the correct way for town to deal with lurkers?@jimbob
: What are your reads of Red Ryu, plytho and Spak?
Pretty sure he’s scum.
I think her argument for why
she claimed seems plausible to me. The rest feels like Madge to me. She always feels kind of scummy to me D1, and because of her well-known loathing of D1, it’s not really alignment indicative. The various meta reads of her from Sabrar and BoomFrog I think are very reasonable and probably point her to Town.
I don’t agree at all with this
I'm not on board with lynching SirG (definitely not with being the hammerer), but that's mostly because Around Here indies tend to be relatively harmless and/or broadly pro-town. Does OS tend to have "dangerous indies" in their games?
We have plenty of dangerous indies in these fora. SKs are very common. Survivors often kingmakers. Just in the six games I’ve played here, we’ve had two survivor kingmakers (jimbob in Diablo and kalira in Shakespeare), Town losing because they lynch an SK instead of scum (YOLO in DT). Marking as Town mostly based on meta vouch from others. Will re-evaluate when she has more content.@Madge
: Why don’t you consider these kinds of indies to be dangerous?
: Really strong scumhunting
of moody here. Catches moody up in the problem of how Town would know that power chaos has happened from N0 results. His reads are very astute and he is very good at digging at inconsistencies in posts. Reminds me a lot of bessie in top form. I can’t really find anything to disagree with in his reads
, and I like that he’s revising his opinions on people like BoomFrog and PW as new evidence presents itself and not sticking to early tunnels. Makes a strong case against Gamma
. Probably my strongest town read at present.@Maven
: Why did you end up choosing moody over jimbob for your lynch candidate D1?
Post-flip confirmed scum.
Really not enough there for me to get a good feel of him. The initial claim seems a bit unnecessary, but I think it’s probably truthful and slightly more likely to come from Town than scum. Neutral for now. Get well soon.@Mpolo
bessie: very typical play. I find myself agreeing with her very often. Nervous because she is so often town.
Can you explain what you mean here? Are you nervous that you're agreeing with someone you think is town?@Mpolo
: Zyth asked here
if you were the protagonist of Portal. Is this true? It would be very
helpful if you could confirm this.@Mpolo
: Did you redirect me last night?
Super scummy start
to the game. Consistent overreactions to anyone reading him as scummy. By this post
it’s clear to me that he’s newbie town. If he had any scumbuddies at all, they would have told him to chill out. I spotted his posting style change when his partner came online in his last game and don’t see the same here. Gets huge townie points for being willing to hammer SirG
. Goes quiet in the latter half of the game when things get serious, follows votes when requested of him. I’d be very surprised if he’s scum. Should be able to verify later if we need to.@Peaceful Whale
: You got very quiet in the last half of D1. What happened?@Peaceful Whale
: Please go through my content and ask me three good questions about anything that you don''t understand or need clarification on.@Peaceful Whale
: Can you post some updated reads? Who are the three scummiest players? Who are the three towniest?
Seems okay early on. Starts to go downhill as game progresses. Don’t care much for these early reads
with most people as kind of neutral and just defaults to lurker scum. I don’t understand how he can be reading heury as town as this stage. Starts to get into the weeds with bessie a bit about some statements made regarding Peaceful Whale. Reminds me a lot of his last game where he was scum, though I do feel that it’s bessie that’s needling him a lot more this time around.
Reads noticeably more suspect here
, especially his read of jimbob which I don’t buy at all. Again, his reads are basically lurker scum and he can’t convince himself to make a case on any of the active players.
I really don’t like his logic around the SirG push
. It’s coming from a very scummy mindset--he doesn’t understand why sacrificing a scummy town is within the realm of townie play, is even good townie play. SirG is much scarier for town than scum, especially post claim. Scum doesn’t care about the redirect--they can just kill mpolo if that’s a worry, but scum can pretty easily just dodge the redirect for quite a while if they want, and the whole time this is going on, mpolo is throwing random players at SirG and causing chaos with our abilities. SirG is a huge liability to town because his powers can easily help scum win, he can vote with scum, and town has to eat a penalty to kill him. Yes, in all likelihood the person hammering SirG will be a scummy town, but that’s FINE. Losing a scummy town and scummy indie is better than just losing a scummy town. It’s better than a no lynch. The plan to deal with the player that refuses to hammer SirG is simple--we lynch that player with extreme prejudice (as FrozenFlame points out). Plytho never even considers this line of play as a possibility even though it’s a much stronger play than hoping we get lucky and redirect a kill to SirG. I’m a little perplexed why Sabrar also didn’t arrive at this conclusion. He’s usually good at working through this sort of thing. Yes it didn't work D1 because we didn't have the votes at the time. Had Ryu been pushed to L-2 it would have worked fine. This plan doesn't rely on luck, just on in a determined town.
plytho starts behaving in very troubling ways as the day progresses. He admits that Gamma is scummier than Ryu, but keeps voting for Ryu
. Switches later when the wagon is moving in that direction. Surprised when the wagon moves away
and turns to jimbob. Defends jimbob here
and tries to divert his lynch here
, and here
plytho is DEFINITELY bothered by jimbob being the wagon and is trying to push against the person who is pushing that wagon. He’s spent pretty much every post since this began defending jimbob. Could be scum with jimbob.@plytho
: Do you feel it is better to vote no lynch than mislynch a scummy town?@plytho
: Why were you defending jimbob so much? @plytho
: If Zyth is scum, who are his scumbuddies?@plytho
: Do you think jimbob is Town?
Main thing that stands out his his strong stance against indies, but unwillingness to actually go through with, say, sacrificing himself for SirG. Only seems to really get into the game when people start pushing votes
on him. Not much that I find particularly townie. Scum lean.@Ryu
: What are your reads of Spak, plytho and jimbob?
So many posts. Mentioned this in my jimbob read but I'm a little surprised that Sabrar didn't react to jimbob talking about two scum teams given jimbob’s behavior in Shakespeare. Sabrar has an encyclopedic knowledge of older games here. Jester read on Zyth is a bit weird. I guess this isn't the first time he's done this though so I'll let it pass. Was going back and forth on him for a little while early in the game, started looking more like Town!Sabrar as the day progressed.
Generally my feeling is Sabrar is a bit more passive this game than I've seen recently. I mean this in terms of aggression and not post count obviously. @Sabrar
: Any particular reason you're acting this way?@Sabrar
: Why don't you think the SirG plan will work if there is otherwise a clear lynch candidate?
Suspicions of Zyth later feel a lot like what I expect from Town!Sabrar, asked some great questions. Big townie points for rallying lynch on moody. Overall I have him solidly town at this stage.@Sabrar
: If Zyth and moody are scumbuddies, who do you think is with them?
Not really much to say here. Active lurked for most of the game, claimed D1 and gambit pretty much failed. Best thing to do is follow Zyth/Frozen/BoomFrog plan and force someone to defuse the bomb. We’ll need to deal with him sooner rather than later.@Amrock
: Are you planning on scumhunting and working with town going forward? @Amrock
: Is your double voter victory condition a solo win?
Barely makes an appearance in my notes. Makes a case on BoomFrog that is plausible but I think this is a forum meta difference, mostly. Early claimers here are usually Town so I am fine with giving a few early town points for this. Note on Madge that BoomFrog wasn't the only person to read her as town off minimal posting. Beyond the BoomFrog commentary I see very little of note. This post
is a lot better. Don’t have a solid read based on content here.@Spak
: What are your reads of jimbob, plytho, and Red Ryu?
Asks good questions. Forget mafia had daychat which I'm willing to ascribe cautiously as a towntell (@plytho
: Can you figure out why?). Shares my concerns about plytho regarding PW. End of day contributions stymied by real life. Not enough data to say anything conclusive but my gut reaction is towntell is real. I’ve got him down as Town lean.@Znirk
: Any chance we'll get to see more of you today?@Znirk
: What's your read on Zyth?