Zyth/Zen Day 2:
I've done this part of the read in bits and pieces since my previous Zyth read. Apologies if it appears a bit scattered at points.
Not sure how to take Zyth's response to LaserGuy's case. My first thought on re-read was that it was buddying LaserGuy and cry "woe is me" in an attempt to curry further. As highlighted by others, he is being vague again about who his "someone else" is, which doesn't help anybody.
@Zyth - why are you being so vague about who you find to be scum? Is this someone else me, your previous certain scum read?
I can't fault his comments
in the wagon-building reasoning. It's not the play-style I'm used to, but I can certainly see the benefits. On the bussing point, I can certainly believe that he holds these views, but he's missing out the fact that sometimes you have to bus once a lynch becomes basically a certainty, or you will be too obvious a scum-buddy following the flip - once this certainty has arrived, the outlined cons become irrelevant. On his reasoning why he isn't buddies with moody - 1) has already been refuted (he wasn't the first to bring moody up), although admittedly if EGW hadn't thought about him, there could be a point here; I gave my thoughts on the related comment regarding not bothering to attempt a read himself there. 2) Is an interesting point. I don't think it's outside the realms of possibility that GE, RR, Zyth, and moody are all on the same scum team, but it's not statistically very likely, if nothing else. He's wrong in saying that FF was the only person suspicious of me at the time (see, for example, bessie's read of me), so I could see a skilled scum player trying to build up a wagon on me to divert attention away from moody, instead of RR or GE, because those two would be too easy and obvious options. Not sure if that's a bit of a stretch though. 3) I'm inclined to buy his logic here, combined with the never bussing his scum buddy point. Doesn't mean he isn't scum though, just not buddies with moody. 4) I'm not seeing as a major point either way. I'm unclear why he was scared of a swing to GE? Conclusion from these is that Zyth makes a fair case why he isn't moody's buddy, although it's not rock-solid, especially if I'm right with my previous suspicions about GE being scum.
@Zyth - why were you scared of a late swing to Gamma Emerald? Why did you decide to wait until D2 to bring this up?In responding to LaserGuy's case
, he never answered the second half of this question: "Was/is your 99.83% read on jimbob? Why did you never reply to this when asked by plytho, George, Sabrar, etc.?" which I believe is the more pertinent part.The rest of the responses or okay - nothing strikes me either way about them. In responding to plytho he doesn't really respond to one of the core points (the late reads list).
@Zyth - what makes you so sure that Maven even used his vig shot? Is your scum read on Spak entirely because of his lack of vote on one of the wagons? If not what else is scummy about him?
Zyth's later notes and questions
post is okay, but nothing particularly amazing stood out to me there. I do have one or two small issues with his responses to plytho and LaserGuy
. For example, "As I've mentioned a couple of times, I think it's ridiculous for players to ask for clarification in the midst of something, as it just gives scum info on how to react" - and can confuse townies, causing them to go after the wrong player due to a misunderstanding. "Huh? Yes, of course. Why would someone prefer to lynch their buddy over a no lynch? That's simply a free night kill for scum." Ignoring the even greater chance of being labelled scum for causing a No Lynch. Mislynches do attract attention, yes, but No Lynches even more so. Obviously for scum, a no lynch is preferable, if they can achieve it without attracting attention, but otherwise it's a bad idea, even over lynching a team-mate, in my opinion. In this area, Zyth doesn't really seem to be thinking too seriously about the comment, in my opinion. I also disagree with this point: "No? Multiple people would've been responsible for the no lynch. It would've been the fault of both sides for not being able to reach consensus." Yes multiple people would've been responsible, but you were the one pushing for my lynch the most, I felt. On his points towards Sabrar, this one stood out to me, but I haven't dug up the context, so it might be a little unfair: "Thank you for being so elaborate. There wasn't enough data for Ryu to have had a town read on me. His read was likely made up." I'm assuming, given Zen's posting rate that he had posted several times by that point. A snap judgement is certainly possible, although a definitive read is less likely. If somebody wants to point me to the post in question, I will take a look further at this response.
I like his point
about Madge tree-stumping, although it's another of those things that seems relatively obvious to me, and sensible for scum to say to try to gain town credit. I also like his comments about the reasons for EGW claiming protection, although if I'm honest, I don't understand why Zyth left it be (it was answered a few minutes later, but that was only after Zyth had given up).
@Zyth - why did you drop
the above point?
@Zyth - you called Gamma a good liability lynch. Could you please clarify what you meant by this?His claim
that he crumbed being able to read moody tomorrow is very weak, in my opinion. His strategy for the judgement votes seems acceptable to me, although maybe overthought a little (why mess about with people unvoting currently). His next few posts are pretty null to me. I disagree with his point about plytho and being a deer caught in headlights. He hasn't felt that way to me as I've been following along. (Aside - I'm cautious of overusing meta on any player who has played scum for several games in a row, as is the case here with plytho, because people's play style evolves given time - it's similar to my earlier point about PW's play style potentially being his "normal play style" as opposed to his "scum play style").
Zyth's case on Spak is decent from a quick read through, even though I didn't get a scum read on Spak from my previous re-read of Spak. When I get a chance I'll go back over Spak's tail-end content to see how valid Zyth's points are. One thing that struck me is that some of Spak's quotes he highlighted as being "he's just praising a post or giving some objective reason as to why someone shouldn't read into something" actually do include subjective content (e.g. "Bessie may well have been doing this to try and make Zen look better, but I don't think Zen would request another player to come in and vote." and "Aside from that, I'm not sure what to think of your Bessie/Zen scumteam. Bessie was my fourth strongest town lean thus far this game and I still have Zen as a scumlean".
Conclusion: As noted in the first half of my read
, Zyth's D1 content didn't look good to me. He made some good defensive points during the early stage of D2, that started to give me pause for thought on this. Overall, he's consistently being unhelpful by failing to answer questions, many of them which were intended to try to draw a read on Zyth himself (see for example my questions here
- he sort of answered the second of the three, but neither the other two, from what I saw), and I can't help but shake the feeling that he's misrepresented some things deliberately (his moody bus claim, for example - a bus isn't really a bus when it's inevitable, so it's a different situation). At the same time, there's been quite a lot of good content in between the bad bits. EGW's read on Zen
really brought me back to the belief that Zyth is scum. He could easily be a scum buddy.
*phew* done that. Now onto Gamma Emerald.