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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:20 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:It's an ordered list from most townie to most scummy.


Can you make a Top 4 Tally?

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LaserGuy
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:37 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:LaserGuy:

How am I underestimating the number of scum? You say most inactives are town. I don't know how much scum there are in a game this large, and I don't expect them all to be scum. (I'm thinking 4-5 left over after Moody being dead) It can vary from team to team. (Last game, scum were all active with me, including Gamma and Amrock) (Sometimes it can be totally lurky, like Zen + Soup + some other guy I don't remember in Doctor Who Mafia)


I'd also expect 4-5 more scum in a game this size. Which I why I have a problem with the fact that you have only two real scumreads. Look at your ordered list here. Znirk is your third strongest scumread. That means that, under the best of circumstances--both your scumreads are right--you're still probably reading at least two, maybe three scum as Town. If you're scum, this is a very easy and inconspicuous way to make your scumbuddies look townie, by putting a lurker deep into scum territory on your list.

Evil George Washington wrote:You state that Znirk always lurks like this


No, you're misunderstanding what I said. I'm not saying that Znirk always lurks or has a lurky meta in particular. I'm saying that I have, on one previous occasions, seem him join a game and then disappear, suddenly, without warning, after only a couple of posts. In that game, he happened to be Town. But that's just an example. I don't think that it's his meta to do this more as Town or scum; he dropped the game for IRL reasons. I do not believe Znirk is a lurker in this game; as I said at the outset of my previous post, I believe Znirk should be classified as inactive, which is a null tell. He isn't lurker scum; he isn't playing at all.

Evil George Washington wrote:But you include Frozen Flame as more likely scum then him, when I tell you that Frozen Flame plays like this as usual and has played like that in the previous game (where He and I were town).


Of course FrozenFlame is scummier; he's active lurking. He is playing the game, he's just not contributing much of value. And as I noted, I've played with him before as well, when he was Town, and he did not behave this way. His contributions were quite productive and insightful. Moreover, I'm kind of baffled both why an experienced player like Frozen would have an active-lurky meta to begin with, and why the experienced players he plays with routinely give him a free pass for the couple of game days because of it. Given the oft-stated preference of your fellowship for lynching lurkers, I'm surprised he isn't policy lynched all the time.

Evil George Washington wrote:I don't strongly scum-read Znirk, I mean that I feel he is lurking scum from the little content he has given. He's in my pile because he is the lurker I am most comfortable offing out of the others, and today is a good day to consider offing a lurker that is possibly scum.


Sure, if you want to discuss policy lynching Znirk, that's fine. Strategically, that's something that might be worth discussing. But it is a policy lynch. I don't agree with trying to sell a policy lynch as a scumread. If you think Znirk should be lynched because he is inactive, you should say that. If you think Znirk should be lynched because you think he is scum, that is a very different proposition.

Evil George Washington wrote:You state that Znirk's content is null, but you don't talk about my point that his entrance post seems good but the rest doesn't seem like that, which means he was doing so to seem town, rather then use it to develop his own conclusions.


It looks to me like he fell behind and was doing his best to catch up. His first post is on page 1 and is second is on page 8. Maybe he was trying to use his questions to lift the game out of RVS, and didn't think they were relevant anymore. I don't know. Second and third posts look fine to me. I don't see anything to justify a scumread here. Again, if you want to policy lynch him for inactivity, you should just say so.

Evil George Washington wrote: What do you think of this:

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Vote: Znirk



A naked vote doesn't really tell me anything. That's why I didn't comment on your vote on Znirk either.

Evil George Washington wrote:On Zen's spak case: It looks good.


I more or less agree with this.

Evil George Washington wrote:On Peaceful Whale: No, I didn't read that game and I have no conclusions from it. Why do you ask? Can you link me? I also want you to go more into what I said on Peace Whale. Peaceful Whale isn't newbie town. Plus you have noted yourself that he has fallen off D1 in your entrance post. So if you are going to assert that, you are going to have to talk it out with me.


X-Men. It's the only other game PW has played here.

With PW, what stands out most to me is that his commentary in the game is broadly inconsistent with him having daychat. He's overreacting to even the slightest pressure, constantly dribbling out far too much information about his role, having rule infractions, and isn't generally making any attempt to produce reads or productive content. His play in this game is noticeably worse in terms of basic mechanics than it was in Fridge Mafia, where he had chat, and more similar to X-Men, where he didn't. I didn't comment on this in the Fridge game thread, but in my contemporaneous notes in GoJoe on the Fridge mafia game, I actually point out exactly when I felt that his partner joined the game and started chatting with him, because there's a noticeable shift in the quality of his content at this point (I should have nailed him on D1 for this, but I erroneously came to the conclusion that he was probably a mason instead).

You also have neglected to talk about the Moody wagon. If you want to read me (Or anyone really), you'll have to take in the whole picture.


I will have another look to see if anything pops out as interesting to me. My original reads took this into account and those served as the baseline for my current reads.

Evil George Washington wrote:Put simply, he Omgus votes FrozenFlame, which shows he is playing reactively and not proactively. He states he has more motivation to play his other games then here, and doesn't show intent to find scum, but rather intent to survive. His only contribution beforehand was his town pool [Sabrar PW Madge Mpolo Bessie Laserguy Znirk] which is an easy thing to state regardless of alignment. Most importantly his reaction to Bessie is telling, because he was scolding Ryu for not addressing his point for Znirk being town at all, yet he did not bring the quote I asked about. (While you say he is being coy, and you provide it for me, which I appreciate) Then when he looks, he realizes he may have been wrong, but he was being confident towards Ryu with what he thought he knew of that quote, without thoroughly reading it. Which is why I feel his reaction to Bessie is forced, he's doing it to make it seem like he believes it is her fault for his mistake, when it was his own. It reminds me of scum!Soup when he makes a similar mistake, but becomes dramatic to draw away attention from his scum slipping.


I don't actually disagree with a lot of this. Gamma has certainly given every indication of being melodramatic. I find his content in the last few pages in particular to be quite appalling (especially this, which, seriously @Gamma, regardless of your alignment, that shit is not appropriate), which has made it very difficult for me to muster a lot of willpower to want to defend him, and as a result I've spent probably twice as long on this section of the post as I have on everything that's gone before. I'm not going to deny that his play his a very scummy feel to it. He's great lynchbait. He reminds me a lot of heuristically_alone, who gives off extremely scummy vibes even as Town (X-Men is a great example), though heury is at least lighthearted and funny. As I said earlier, I think some of Gamma's play is fine, not great, but fine, and he wasn't really on my radar for most of the D2. I'd probably have put him as null, or maybe a slight lean one way or the other. I noticed, though, that my scumreads--all of them (not Spak in D2 until recently, though he had made noises in that direction D1)--had Gamma as a leading lynch contender for the today, or had already voted for him, and that was worth a bit of townie credit in my mind, and I'm going to oppose any wagon that is driven by those particular players, because I don't vote with scum and won't act in ways that further their objectives. Again, this I am confused as to why this seems to be controversial. Do townies regularly vote the same wagons as their strongest scumreads in your part of the world?

Sorry, I don't really feel I did a great job of this last section. Gamma's personal attack against bessie really rubbed me the wrong way and I just can't summon the energy to really fight this right now. Maybe I'll revisit this later when I'm not so pissed off at him.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby bessie » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:49 am UTC

Reads list, this is where I am at.

Skipping the following for time. Will reevaluate if applicable: Amrock (dead anyway), heuristically_alone (no D2 content), Znirk (no D2 content), Peaceful Whale (covered here).

BoomFrog
I feel that D1 BF gave Madge and Peaceful Whale (see my PW analysis) too much town cred, I’m neutral on BF giving mpolo too much town cred. Claims plytho is setting off his scum detector here, and his later read of plytho is scummy for no scum hunting. I think he is still rolefishing PW here, but he later backed off here. I kinda want BoomFrog to be town just for this post.
BoomFrog wrote: There is such a metric fuckton of content
Couldn’t agree more.
BoomFrog wrote: My vote on Moody wasn't lazy, it was calculated. I wanted to get Bessie's read on Moody before I justified mine so I could use that chance to judge her.
Fair enough, but you later used that read as an excuse for a scum read on me, and I think it took two posts to clear it up, or was there another reason you flipped on me?

Evil George Washington
My top town read D1. Starts D2 with a case on BoomFrog ( I responded to his case here ), and questions for Sabrar, bessie, Peaceful Whale (why those three?). I must have missed/skimmed/forgotten his moody theory, noted for now, may want to return to this later. He has same doubts of Madge due to end of day hammer/treestump issue. Moves BoomFrog to town (I’m not clear why).

FrozenFlame
I don’t have an issue with his posting style (did I mention this already?). I agreed with most of his D1 content until he started discussing SirG/lynch strategies, I skimmed much of that. Looking back it seems he may have miscalculated in is setup speculations. Regarding his D2 content, his thoughts either line up with mine or when they don’t, I follow why he has those reads. He’s not on my lynch list because I am going to follow EGW’s assurance that if Frozen Flame is scum it will manifest later in the game.

Gamma Emerald
I had him as a scum lean on D1, he was low on D1 content, and his content level has improved on D2. I believe his role is some variation of his claim, but I don’t automatically believe his town claim, see my post here. I don’t know what to think of his odd reactions to my content throughout this game, first with the Znirk read here, now this:
Gamma Emerald wrote: Bessie can you not actually read for shit?!?!!? I'm TOWN you imbecile.
Yes, I know you claimed town. So did Madge, and I’m currently skeptical of her claim too.
Gamma Emerald wrote:PEdit: what? My role is as I said: I lynch a target I get a power. Everyone is assuming I'm indie when I'm town.

Why are you surprised people are reluctant to trust a lyncher? You said this early in the game regarding lynchers:
Gamma Emerald wrote:My two communities have different mindsets. Starmen trusts certain indies more than others. A group we don't trust is lyncher-type ones, which Sir G seems to be.


Posting what I have because I know that I won’t complete this tonight. I’ll try to do a few more before I fall asleep.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:51 am UTC

Bessie can you post your Top 4 and vote?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby bessie » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:57 am UTC

I’m currently voting for plytho.

plytho, Gamma Emerald

Tentative, pending closer read: Spak

Undecided pending reread: jimbobmacdoodle, Red Ryu (holdovers from D1)

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:09 am UTC

plytho wrote:FrozenFlame scummy (scum seems to defend him).


Uh, no, I read him as scum for having no reads, active lurking, and no scumhunting. Did you even read my posts before writing this? The fact that other players that I found scummy jumped to his defense I find notable, but that wasn't the basis for my read of him.

plytho wrote:This is a big difference between LaserGuy and me. When I made my bottom 4 yesterday I expected one, maybe two of them to flip scum by the end of the game. When LaserGuy makes a bottom 4 I think he expects all 4 to flip scum. I am impressed by this confidence and I think it takes a townie mind to be that confident in your own reads.


My reads inform my actions. Otherwise what's the point of having reads? Would you vote the same person as your scummiest read? Would you vote the same person as your five scummiest reads and none of your most reliable townreads?

plytho wrote:I think he’s wrong about a lot of his reads though, he should pay attention to the moody lynch and reevaluate his reads. He’s very probably town.


Quick thoughts on moody lunch on my scumreads:
-FrozenFlame: Pushed jimbob almost till the end, only switched over when there was no chance of stopping the wagon. Scum points.
-Red Ryu: Votes jimbob late, never switches back. Scum points.
-Spak: Lurks out the end of D1, shows up too late to contribute. Scum points.
-jimbob: Counterwagon to moody. Null.
-plytho: Pushes hard against jimbob wagon. Townie points unless jimbob flips scum.
-EGW: Pushes on moody fairly early, switches wagons midstream a few times, moves back to moody. Townie points.

That's not really any different from how I'd read the wagon at the start of D2 though. Just because you get townie points for the moody wagon doesn't absolve you of scummy content elsewhere though.

plytho wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:About me, I find the comment about my reads being lazy a bit baffling. This is a huge game with many players. I don't have infinite time or energy to play mafia, so I am happy to use simple heuristics, meta reads, or process of elimination to reach conclusions about players that haven't given me a strong impression one way or the other.


The problematic ‘lazy’ read is the Gamma one.


See my response to EGW.

As an aside, why have you suddenly taken such an interest in my content, plytho?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Gamma Emerald » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:09 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Reads update because reads don't remain static, reads are always changing. If nothing has changed your reads, just restate them and state why they have remained static.

Alright. These are basically the same as before but
LaserGuy is a townread because his role and usage feel towny
Zen is a townread because iirc he helped push along the moody wagon (might be wrong on this but haven't checked)
PW is a townread because of his erraticness and the breadcrumb type thing he did early day 2
Bessie is a townread, I think I have her as that because I feel her posts are town-motivated
As for why they are static I haven't noted anything that changes the reads yet

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Gamma Emerald » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:10 am UTC

What do you actually mean by "lyncher" Bessie? Let's clear this up.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:14 am UTC

JimBob: I was expressing how I felt about Gamma at the time. I've realized he was slipping under the radar so I wanted to state that publicly. He slipped under the radar in our last game and was scum. I like to post what I'm thinking in the moment.

On Boom, I felt his actions were a bit late. His response to it seemed a bit lazy. Technically, he was third vote on the wagon iicr. Then he was first after Sabrar and I moved from it temporarily. I can see that he held it down by then but I take that as null after so much support and votes were going Moody's way already. I am not sure what to think of him helping Madge.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:18 am UTC

I'm going to sleep now, have work in the morning today. I'll get to you later, LaserGuy.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby plytho » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:30 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:As an aside, why have you suddenly taken such an interest in my content, plytho?

1 I hadn't done a proper read of you.
2 I noticed you started to think one scum team became more plausible and wondered how that would influence your reads
3 I thought you were town based on your entrance and felt you were wrong about a bunch of things. So I wanted to see if you were wrong because you were actually scum. If not I wanted to point out the wrongness and make sure town!LaserGuy was working with all the relevant information.

LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:FrozenFlame scummy (scum seems to defend him).


Uh, no, I read him as scum for having no reads, active lurking, and no scumhunting. Did you even read my posts before writing this? The fact that other players that I found scummy jumped to his defense I find notable, but that wasn't the basis for my read of him.

I admit that was the weakest of the three. I still think you're putting too much trust in your own reads.

plytho wrote:This is a big difference between LaserGuy and me. When I made my bottom 4 yesterday I expected one, maybe two of them to flip scum by the end of the game. When LaserGuy makes a bottom 4 I think he expects all 4 to flip scum. I am impressed by this confidence and I think it takes a townie mind to be that confident in your own reads.


LaserGuy wrote:My reads inform my actions. Otherwise what's the point of having reads?
My reads inform my actions too, as well as my other reads but I’m always very aware that I may be wrong and make an effort to make my own assessment of someone's content before calling them town or scum.
LaserGuy wrote:Would you vote the same person as your scummiest read? Would you vote the same person as your five scummiest reads and none of your most reliable townreads?
Obviously I would rather be voting my scummiest read :) But if my scummiest read isn’t an option I have no problem voting my second scummiest read, even if my scummiest read is already voting them. If it’s my five scummiest vs my four towniest I might take a good look at my read again and might not vote them.


LaserGuy wrote:Quick thoughts on moody lunch on my scumreads:
-FrozenFlame: Pushed jimbob almost till the end, only switched over when there was no chance of stopping the wagon. Scum points.
-Red Ryu: Votes jimbob late, never switches back. Scum points.
-Spak: Lurks out the end of D1, shows up too late to contribute. Scum points.
-jimbob: Counterwagon to moody. Null.
-plytho: Pushes hard against jimbob wagon. Townie points unless jimbob flips scum.
-EGW: Pushes on moody fairly early, switches wagons midstream a few times, moves back to moody. Townie points.

That's not really any different from how I'd read the wagon at the start of D2 though. Just because you get townie points for the moody wagon doesn't absolve you of scummy content elsewhere though.
I disagree with you on jimbob. He was on moody way before his wagon was a thing. And I still find it kind of weird that you didn’t include these points in your reads list.

@LaserGuy: you said at some point that you thought maybe your two scum team theory was wrong. What’s your feeling now. One team or two teams? You have six scum reads that you believe in quite strongly. How do they fit into one team/ two teams?
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Sabrar » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:35 am UTC

Gamma: 8
Spak: 7
FrozenFlame: 5
plytho: 5
Red Ryu: 4
Zyth: 4
Znirk: 1
BoomFrog: 1
h_a: 1
mpolo: 1

Only counting those who actually referred to the top4 list.
Not contributing: Amrock, BoomFrog, FrozenFlame, h_a, Peaceful Whale, Spak, Znirk

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby plytho » Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:53 am UTC

bessie wrote:
plytho wrote: At that point I was convinced Zen moved the lynch away from moody and scummy looking Gamma. I had a scumlean on bessie and she seemed to fit the team.
You wouldn't care to elaborate on this, would you? What connections did you see between these three players?
I’ll answer this after I’ve finished my reads. The Zen-Gamma-moody connection has been discussed by FrozenFlame and jimbob I believe. You weren’t that strongly connected but I got some pings off you (one of wich will not be named again) that had me leaning scummy. Zen’s confident ‘bessie will join us’, was maybe a ping. I think I was also kind of expecting you to be more sceptical of Zen’s move to jimbob. Ok, I guess I did kind of answer already :)
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby plytho » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:08 pm UTC

Bessie:

This is a process I often use to scumhunt:
I read players
I prod players with a question when I notice something weird and potentially scummy.
I won’t usually elaborate why I find it scummy, I wait for an answer first. Depending on the answer I go one of three ways:
1 If the answer explains what I found weird to my satisfaction I drop my inquiry. This can lead to a town read.
2 If the answer explains what I found weird in a way that supports my scum tell I double down and point out why I think it’s scummy. This can lead to a scum read.
3 If the answer shows that my question was misunderstood I try to clarify. This doesn’t lead to a read.

With bessie I’ve been going into loops of 3 twice this game now. That’s why I don’t have a read at this point. I don’t think this is scum!bessie trying to dodge my questions since the exact same thing happened in fridge where she was town.

I’m pretty much null on bessie going into this read:

The first noteworthy thing on bessie is her lack of setup discussion. Others have pointed this but I don’t remember bessie’s defense (I might run into it later). Townie reason for this: bessie felt there were more important things to talk about at that point. The thread was already growing fast and setup talk usually happens during RVS on xkcd and that was long gone. Scummy reason for this: bessie was afraid to leak info with fake setup spec, or someone on her team strongly advised against it. I could easily imagine Zen being against it, this quote comes to mind (I underlined a relevant sentence):
#HBC | Zyth wrote:I always hard town read my mates as scum. I never bring attention toward the things they say, because scummates often see scummy behavior in their mates that town otherwise would not see. So fake scum hunting your mates is horrible, because you're likely to bring up legit points that town would have never seen.


Bessie’s D1 has her usual scumhunting and generally looks good. I do notice that she never provides a read on Sabrar or Zen but has them as townie on her list. When I was scum for the first time in Shakespeare I remember having trouble producing good reads on dimochka and LaserGuy.

I still have an open question about this post. Open question/concern here. There’s a response to some of my other points but not this one here.

I’m also still a bit bugged about this quote from bessie’s first post D2:
bessie wrote:Pick for scum partners at end of D1: plytho and jimbobmacdoodle.
This is supposedly independent of moody’s flip. I’m not sure if bessie meant she didn’t take his flip into account or she thinks jimbob and I are scumbuddies either with or without moody. If it’s the former I think it’s a very strange think to post. If it’s the latter I’m bugged by the lack of clarification. This is from a later post:
bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote: I don’t think bessie really believes her read of jimbob.
Oh but I do.
Again without clarification. Bessie still seems convinced of jimbob’s scumminess and doesn’t seem to think the moody flip is relevant. If she is confident in a two scum team scenario I can understand that she’d still be convinced of the jimbob=scum idea. But in a one team scenario the moody flip and jimbob’s vote are relevant.


Spoiled for big quote:
Spoiler:
bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:I settled on bessie as third member of Zyth’s team for a couple reasons. First is the comment Zyth made about jimbob being the strongest scum on the team. This feels like bessie’s read to me.

Refer to this from the Zyth post:
LaserGuy wrote:Then there’s this one.
jim is the strongest scum player of the 3. We take him out and the rest falls apart. I just have a feeling about this.

@Zyth: Where did you get this from? How do you know that there’s three scum? How do you know jimbob is the strongest of them? Why didn’t you answer Sabrar’s question about this here?
I think either you or I are reading this wrong, I read it as the strongest of the three lynch candidates, not that all three were scum on the same team. And how can that be my read, as it is between jimbob and two people I have never played with before?

I don’t know if LaserGuy has responded to this yet but it is very obvious he is assuming you and Zen are in a scum team together and as such are able to discuss who among the three would be the strongest scum player.

bessie wrote:George, I really should have prepared more over N1, but I didn’t for reasons (overwhelmed and knowing the playing field would thin out a little after N1, nervous I was going to be NKed and didn’t want to put too much in to it to lessen the disappointment, pretty sure some of my content would be suspect anyway because of my reluctance to lynch moody, and other reasons).
The underlined is a strange reason for not working on content N1. I’m not saying you should have provided content. The fact that you (or your content) would be suspect is a reason for you to work on great content.

I guess there are a bunch of things I find suspicious about bessie. The fact that she wasn't on the moody wagon isn't helping her. I’d really like to see her reads on me and jimbob. She’s been calling us scummy and scumbuddies without going into it. She also hasn’t provided a read on Sabrar or Zen all game. The lack of a Zen read is particularly troubling. Bessie also promised to look into LaseGuy’s case on Zen here but doesn’t follow up on it.

All of this could come from town!bessie being overwhelmed by this huge game and I know I've personally reduced bessie's available time. Still, a lot of this looks troubling. I guess bessie is a scum lean for me, especially if Zen turns out to be scum.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby plytho » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:15 pm UTC

Other thoughts:
2 scum teams is still quite possible with even-odd night kills
There’s going to be at least 4 deaths tonight: the lynch, amrock, whoever kills amrock and at least one NK. That leaves 14 people D3. Majority is 8, leaving 6 people off wagon. 3 of those 6 people off wagon will be the lurkers, making things harder for town. Should we lynch a lurker today? We only have one replacement for 3 slots. Ideally one of them would show up to judgement vote amrock and be our sacrifice.

Gamma refused to be the sacrifice. Which really doesn’t look good. His claimed power is terrible for town. He doesn’t even know what he gets for lynching his targets. Throwing himself on amrock is the best way Gamma can serve town. He’s indie at best.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby plytho » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:13 pm UTC

Zen: The general impression I get from Zen’s play as opposed to mine is that he’s playing chess and I’m trying to solve a murder mystery. So I’m passively trying to find out who’s who while Zen is actively moving pieces around to try and gain an advantage. That’s why I pay attention to the timing of his reads post, the jimbob push and the reveal of his 100% read. There is a reason Zen is doing that at that point and to that player.

Here’s my earlier read on Zen. Zen hasn’t really responded to my concerns and questions in that post so my opinion hasn’t changed for the better.

bessie wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:The bolded here is also super weird! Please tell me you just missed the spoiler. Please, please, please. I really don't want you to be scum, cause I had this awesome case on bessie and now I'm going to have to burn it :(
Don’t burn it. I’d like to see it.
Another thing we agree on! Zen, is using the LaserGuy playbook here: he's so confident that one and only one of me and bessie is scum so scumreading me is enough to entirely clear bessie. I think Zen was trying to bait me there. He never has explained why he found it weird but not why my call out makes me scummy. It doesn't only make me scummy btw, but so scummy his entire case on me relies on it. If only I would explain why that was weird and then he would have my back. I was in defense mode when replying to it so I didn’t notice it at that point, but looking back this thing is super fishy.

@People who know Zen: Am I paranoid for thinking this was a subtle rolefishing play from Zen? I’m thinking that line about burning the case on bessie only makes sense in that context.

Quote chain in spoiler:
Spoiler:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:
#HBC | Red Ryu wrote:
mpolo wrote:I think we're overcomplicating on the whole Judgment thing. I don't think it's necessary to have everyone unvote, just make sure that whoever we want to "hammer" unvotes and re-votes. Otherwise, we get the thing down to a couple of votes, and a scum team could use the situation to (1) judge a townie (assuming LaserGuy is town for the argument) (2) Tree-stump another townie (assuming Madge is town for the argument) and then get their night-kill in, making a trifecta of fail for town. I don't want to make something like that easy.

Ninjaed by the hopefully non-cryptographic post from Gamma Emerald.


This is also where I stand on the voting and inviting idea Btw.
Are you serious. Not agreeing to this is essentially saying "I don't want to give town an extra tool to finding scum and optimizing our day play!"

I quit. Someone just shoot me.

Vote: #HBC | Zyth

just kidding [<-was in a spoiler but spoilers don't nest]


#HBC | Zyth wrote:
plytho wrote:Zen, can you please write out the scenarios showing how we get free scum with your plan? I haven't been following this (despite my love for logic puzzles).

Also that self vote is weird. I don't like it.

I have a pretty busy schedule this weekend I'll get as many reads out as I can tomorrow morning, possibly ignoring my current top town reads.

Two of my bottom four:
Gamma and spak.

The bolded here is also super weird! Please tell me you just missed the spoiler. Please, please, please. I really don't want you to be scum, cause I had this awesome case on bessie and now I'm going to have to burn it :(

plytho wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:
plytho wrote:I did see the spoiler. My 'weird' comment comes from a 'votes aren't toys' perspective. After RVS I consider every vote serious. It has also been made clear (trough Madge's claim and your sample roles early D1) that votes have mechanical powers in OS games. It also took you a while to move your vote. Instead of voting Spak after your case you joke voted yourself.
Satisfied with your answers to the other points, but wtf does it matter if that's your (wrong) perspective? I've shown time and time again that isn't mine. So I ask you again, how is it weird?
Well, I haven't really picked up on that. I scrolled through your posts just now scanning for your votes, every vote you placed looked serious. I didn't see you being frivolous with your vote until now.

I have seen you argue that votes arent just for lynching, they're a scum hunting tool, and I don't disagree with that. But this self vote doesn't fit that description.


#HBC | Zyth wrote:
plytho wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote: From the fact that I've used my vote more freely than what you're traditionally used to, you can easily extrapolate to this situation. Even beside that: you really think that a joke vote post, 4 days before the deadline, with no one near L-1, is something that is note-worthy? A vote on themselves? In a post where they directly specify that it is a joke?
I wouldn't think so if I didn't have this on my mind:
plytho wrote: It has also been made clear (trough Madge's claim and your sample roles early D1) that votes have mechanical powers in OS games.
This is is what made me go from 'Zen's joking around' to 'weird'.

Oh! I see. This is such a strange thought, but it makes sense. It makes me think that you yourself have some sort of vote manipulation. Not sure why you'd have this thought otherwise.


Paranoia or not, it’s not making me feel better about Zen. It feels like he’s making a move and it doesn’t feel like a townie move.

Well, it’s seems like I’m driving into the bessie-Zen tunnel: There is very little interaction between bessie and Zen. Looking at the mentions of bessie in Zen’s post I notice that they don’t seem to interact. They’re not talking to each other in thread. Zen does have bessie as a possible scum in his D1 reads list:
Spoiler:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Bessie
I'd like to see where she picks up, especially with regard to jimbob. Also curious to see what she disliked about Boom and plytho calling out Whale's claim. I honestly haven't seen anything from her that has given me a strong town vibe, but I haven't felt like her posts are malicious either. I think how she ends up voting throughout the game is going to give the best indication of her alignment. Ninja Edit #564, pg. 15: Still hasn't explained why she disliked Boom/plytho's call out. Just has an unwarranted "pissed off" reaction. How are they role fishing? Was hoping she'd utilize her time to go more in depth on her "interesting" reads. Negative reaction from this post overall. If any of the people higher up on this list are scum, this is where I would wager.

According to his claim that he never says anything bad about buddies he and bessie can’t be buddies. But I’m too paranoid to just buy a claim like that.

Oh and by the way: @Zen: from your responses it seems like you accept my point of view on those three points you were asking me about. I’d like to get my reward now :)

So generally I’m still leaning scum on Zen. Maybe he’s a townie trying to win the game with his moves but I don’t entirely understand them and trust them.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby plytho » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:15 pm UTC

FrozenFlame, BoomFrog and jimbob will follow (+ ordered list) after I've done some housework.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:50 pm UTC

Response and reaction time.

On Gamma's claim:
Spoiler:
I'm not sure I buy it, but I expect it may have an element of truth in it (e.g. he's scum, but with the exact same power). Bear in mind that scum probably have false claims, based on what others have said earlier. In the worst case, I'm wrong on my read, he's telling the truth, and we lose a townie who could become biased in the lynch and is unlikely to have any useful ability. He's related reactions are surprisingly strong, and actually almost sound like they could be coming from extremely frustrated townie, but everything else is bad.

I think I understand where his reaction here is coming from:
bessie wrote:If Gamma Emerald is telling the truth about his win condition, my gut reaction is that he is not pro-town, because I still think that if your win condition involves eliminating town, you are not pro-town. (I have been having this argument with jimbobmacdoodle for almost two years, since Draculafia.
Here, bessie is saying that Gamma claimed that his win condition involved lynching town. He didn't say that - he said his ability is triggered by lynching specific individuals, not his win condition. So Gamma is getting frustrated because he is being misrepresented (oh, it was confirmed by Gamma's comment here). What I find interesting is Zyth's reaction to this - he completely misses or ignores why Gamma was frustrated in the first place. I'm not sure what he'd hope to gain by that though, if it is deliberate, other than potentially distancing him, seeing that's where the lynch is currently looking like it is going.
Also on Gamma:
Spoiler:
Aside from his claim, and related direct reactions, he's done very little useful since my read on him. He responded to my read, but refused to answer my question on him, neither did he respond to my follow-up questions, he complained about being wagonned, and he refused to be the Judgement "hammerer". He does claim to have spent time sorting people (although I didn't see any real evidence of this), he defends PW a bit and he posts a meta read on EGW (which EGW helpfully points out is contradictory to his previously expressed statements). There's also a bit of discussion about setups in general, but they are nothing more than speculation with little impact on the game. Eventually, he also posts an "updated" reads list (acknowledged to basically be unchanged) of certain players in response to EGW, but only after some resistance.
@Gamma - please respond to my previous points linked to in the second spoiler. Also, please tell me which of the 8 people, who have you in their top 4, are scum.

@bessie - I acknowledge the response you gave to BoomFrog, but can you see how your neutral stance on moody feels somewhat suspicious given his flip?
Spak wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:His reads list has me thinking that BoomFrog might not be moody's scum-buddy, mostly because he asks questions that just seem unlikely to come from a buddy. On the other hand, his reasons for moody being a scum-lean essentially boil down to small inconsistencies in moody's reads list (Gamma Emerald town with no reason, mpolo in neutral pile after early town read), which is hardly an amazing reason for putting him in the scum pile.

So what makes you think that it couldn't be a poorly constructed bus if the scum-lean read was fairly unsubstantiated?
It could be, it just wasn't how it struck me on first read (or indeed now). In particular, moody was not under any serious pressure at the time, I believe (note: not gone back to verify this), so it would be bussing him for no great reason at that point. I basically said this at the time I made those comments, in the same paragraph, though.

@Spak - why would scum!BoomFrog ask these sorts of questions, given the state of the game at that point? Why did you neglect the next sentence following the above quote, that was essentially my response to your question? And why haven't you responded to my other comments here (quoted below)?
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Who does he find to be scum? Who are moody's likely scum buddies.
plytho wrote:
Sabrar wrote:Bounty Hunter doesn't seem like a townie role to me unless you can guarantee that your targets are non-town. Otherwise it's just a Lyncher.

A guarantee that the targets are non town would be way too powerful. That's better than a cop.
I'm surprised Sabrar didn't think about this. Also, isn't lyncher usually a win-condition, not an ability? Lazy-Sabrar? Hmmm...
Spak wrote:I'm honestly starting to get a little concerned with the divide that seems to be forming in this game, and am questioning if one side is led by a scumteam and the other is led by town or if there are two scumteams and town is being forced into taking sides in some sort of gang war.
@Spak - Which do you think it is? If the former, which one is the scum team on?
Madge wrote:GE Claim: It seems like a reasonable enough role, I'm not an expert on OS's modding so I'll defer to smashboards if they think it's ridiculous and would never have been used.
@Madge - Do you think he is town though?
bessie wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: A thought that literally just occurred to me - since somebody will get lynched, what do people think about that person being the last to vote amrock as well, if they can be persuaded? Sure we lose out on a chance to get another death through the explosion (assuming it hits the last person to vote, and not something else, which we can't be certain about), but we also don't have to sacrifice a townie. Just a thought.
Haven’t we had multiple discussions on how this isn’t going to happen? Or am I mixing this up with the “hammer SirGabriel” posts I also stopped reading?
I see this as a slightly different situation, although I accept it's a related point. I would still expect us to lynch the last person on the Amrock wagon in this case, so the difference is that somebody wouldn't be committing suicide - they're going to be killed anyway. Which makes me think of another question for Gamma:

@Gamma - Assuming for a moment that it becomes clear that you are going to be lynched, would you be prepared to Judgement vote Amrock then? If not, why not?
LaserGuy wrote:
Gamma Emerald wrote:Bessie can you not actually read for shit?!?!!? I'm TOWN you imbecile.


I think if you had any hope of stopping this lynch, you probably blew it with this comment.
@LaserGuy - Why do you think this?

Sabrar makes a fair comment about me not following up. In most cases, I don't feel a need to follow up (and will come back to them when I next do a re-read of that player), but as you note, I've also been prioritising completing my reads.
Sabrar wrote:
Gamma Emerald wrote:Question: is that a team guess or just assorted scumreads because that would be the jankiest team guess I've ever seen.
It's an ordered list from most townie to most scummy.
I assume that Gamma was asking about your top 4 scum picks here. Assuming that was the case:

@Gamma - what is wrong with a team of Zen, Gamma, plytho, and FrozenFlame (ignoring the fact that you are in that list)?
LaserGuy wrote:A naked vote doesn't really tell me anything. That's why I didn't comment on your vote on Znirk either.
@LaserGuy: Why didn't you ask either Zyth or EGW about their reasons for the naked vote?
Evil George Washington wrote:JimBob: I was expressing how I felt about Gamma at the time. I've realized he was slipping under the radar so I wanted to state that publicly. He slipped under the radar in our last game and was scum. I like to post what I'm thinking in the moment.

On Boom, I felt his actions were a bit late. His response to it seemed a bit lazy. Technically, he was third vote on the wagon iicr. Then he was first after Sabrar and I moved from it temporarily. I can see that he held it down by then but I take that as null after so much support and votes were going Moody's way already. I am not sure what to think of him helping Madge.
@EGW - Thank you for your response. I was under the impression that you were saying that Gamma didn't fly under the radar in your previous game, so that meant he wouldn't be scum, which contradicted your reads elsewhere.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Amrock - If you want to have any chance of staying alive, you're going to need to convince us that LaserGuy is scum, and that your use to town is well worth the risk of you sneaking an indie win ahead of town.
@Amrock - What is your current opinion of LaserGuy?

@Everyone - We have less than 36 hours to deadline, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of movement on the wagons currently. I'd like everyone not voting for Gamma, to either propose a counter wagon, and try to drum up support for it, based on the top 4 picks listed, or to vote for Gamma.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Sabrar » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:17 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I'm surprised Sabrar didn't think about this. Also, isn't lyncher usually a win-condition, not an ability? Lazy-Sabrar? Hmmm...
Lol. I wanted to see if Gamma would follow up his claim with a more ludicrous one. Do you really think I wouldn't immediately realize the consequences of such a role?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Everyone - We have less than 36 hours to deadline, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of movement on the wagons currently. I'd like everyone not voting for Gamma, to either propose a counter wagon, and try to drum up support for it, based on the top 4 picks listed, or to vote for Gamma.
Disagree, this could easily lead to an early hammer.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Sabrar » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:19 pm UTC

EBWOP: proposing counter-wagons is fine and could tell us a lot later, I disagree with the part that given no counter-wagon people should vote Gamma in haste.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Gamma Emerald » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:29 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Also on Gamma:
Aside from his claim, and related direct reactions, he's done very little useful since my read on him. He responded to my read, but refused to answer my question on him, neither did he respond to my follow-up questions, he complained about being wagonned, and he refused to be the Judgement "hammerer". He does claim to have spent time sorting people (although I didn't see any real evidence of this), he defends PW a bit and he posts a meta read on EGW (which EGW helpfully points out is contradictory to his previously expressed statements). There's also a bit of discussion about setups in general, but they are nothing more than speculation with little impact on the game. Eventually, he also posts an "updated" reads list (acknowledged to basically be unchanged) of certain players in response to EGW, but only after some resistance.[/spoiler]@Gamma - please respond to my previous points linked to in the second spoiler. Also, please tell me which of the 8 people, who have you in their top 4, are scum.

Can you repost those points without the quotes so it' easier to respond? Also what 8 people do you refer to? I can't recall exactly who has me in their top 4.
@Gamma - Assuming for a moment that it becomes clear that you are going to be lynched, would you be prepared to Judgement vote Amrock then? If not, why not?
I guess I would then but the fact I'm being pushed so much makes me extra defiant when it comes to getting lynched. Also, as I've said earlier I despise pointless bussing. If you consider me scum you're going to have to handle these questions (this goes to EVERYONE not just jimbob): What reason would there be for me to be bussed? If I'm not being bussed where's the counter-movement? Don't you think a scumteam trying to push an alternative would try to double down on a single target? And lastly, for people who would try to argue "his buddies are MIA!", do you really think I would take that lying down, or do you think I would have done something about it by now.
Sabrar wrote:
Gamma Emerald wrote:Question: is that a team guess or just assorted scumreads because that would be the jankiest team guess I've ever seen.
It's an ordered list from most townie to most scummy.
I assume that Gamma was asking about your top 4 scum picks here. Assuming that was the case:

@Gamma - what is wrong with a team of Zen, Gamma, plytho, and FrozenFlame (ignoring the fact that you are in that list)?

My issue is with how the game has been going down it doesn't make sense as a scumteam.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Sabrar » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:36 pm UTC

Gamma Emerald wrote:Also what 8 people do you refer to? I can't recall exactly who has me in their top 4.

bessie
EGW
jimbob
Madge
mpolo
plytho
Ryu
Sabrar

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:38 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:@Zen: At best she is lying Town and we cannot rely on anything she says or does but I don't think this is the case. Scum.
Can you explain the lying part.

Top 4: Spak

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Sabrar » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:42 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:(I totally lied yesterday about how I wouldn't defend my bud. I totally would. I just said that to see if Sabrar would switch to Jim. Sorry Sabrar I know you have a LAL type of policy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby LaserGuy » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:46 pm UTC

Gamma Emerald wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
@Gamma - Assuming for a moment that it becomes clear that you are going to be lynched, would you be prepared to Judgement vote Amrock then? If not, why not?


I guess I would then but the fact I'm being pushed so much makes me extra defiant when it comes to getting lynched. Also, as I've said earlier I despise pointless bussing. If you consider me scum you're going to have to handle these questions (this goes to EVERYONE not just jimbob): What reason would there be for me to be bussed? If I'm not being bussed where's the counter-movement? Don't you think a scumteam trying to push an alternative would try to double down on a single target? And lastly, for people who would try to argue "his buddies are MIA!", do you really think I would take that lying down, or do you think I would have done something about it.


Judgment voting will not immediately hammer and end the day. It will (hopefully) just mean you get credit for killing Amrock thereby saving another (hopefully) townie slot. Do you not understand why refusing this is problem? Do you think I'm asking you this because I'm scum?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:54 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:(I totally lied yesterday about how I wouldn't defend my bud. I totally would. I just said that to see if Sabrar would switch to Jim. Sorry Sabrar I know you have a LAL type of policy ¯\_(ツ)_/¯).
You said lying. What do you think I'm lying about :3

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Sabrar » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:56 pm UTC

Lying Town = Town who is willing to lie in general = untrustworthy Town

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Sabrar » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:00 pm UTC

@Zen: as long as you're here do you want to address this?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby plytho » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:30 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Zyth - There are two possibilities: The Cojones Museum has requested Zen donate her amazing collection in the event of her death or Zen is town. I know most people are bad at reading the "wagon-omics" but Zen was sincerely only trying to tempt scum with a bad counter wagon, she want trying to stop the Moody lynch.
I knew I'd seen this quote somewhere but I couldn't find it last time. BoomFrog, this is your interpretation of Zen's motives. Zen has been saying his read on jimbob was sincere but also that his case was weak. He hasn't been clear about deliberately trying to tempt scum with a bad counterwagon. On top of that he hasn't bothered to analyse the results of his move. That's weird if he was trying to tempt scum.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby bessie » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:36 pm UTC

Gamma Emerald wrote:What do you actually mean by "lyncher" Bessie? Let's clear this up.

Lyncher- Must get a specific person lynched to win. Independent. On xkcd, this role would probably leave the game with a win, and the game would continue. My impression from the DGamers is that when an independent achieves their win condition, it is usually game over.

All right, plytho wants me to answer a bunch of questions I’ve already answered. Again. He really doesn’t want me to have time to look at other content or complete my reads. Why? I’m not a really good scum hunter, and I don’t usually do pure gut reads. My gameplay style and my reads are analytic; I look for things that are wrong, like contradictions in claims or night results. And I often fixate on small details like a misplaced word that betrays knowledge of the setup. plytho knows my play style. My (very unreliable) gut instinct is that there is something someone said that is out of place, or betrays some knowledge that the speaker shouldn’t have, and that if a player with my play style finds it, it will lead them to scum. If this is true plytho is doing a good job of keeping me from finding it, because it’s going to be pretty tough now, with 41 pages of content and growing.

plytho wrote: The first noteworthy thing on bessie is her lack of setup discussion. Others have pointed this but I don’t remember bessie’s defense (I might run into it later). Townie reason for this: bessie felt there were more important things to talk about at that point. The thread was already growing fast and setup talk usually happens during RVS on xkcd and that was long gone. Scummy reason for this: bessie was afraid to leak info with fake setup spec, or someone on her team strongly advised against it.
D1 explanation for dropping setup speculation here. I discussed this more somewhere but I can’t find it. So no quote but it was something along the lines of multiple DGamers said it would be a waste of time discussing the setup on D1, and I'm acknowledging they know their mod better than I do.

plytho wrote:I still have an open question about this post. Open question/concern here. There’s a response to some of my other points but not this one here.
I started to go through these individually but I’ve just wasted another half hour rereading my own content. I answered all these. Multiple times. If I didn’t please extract and repost your questions. References: This. This. This. This.


plytho wrote:I’m also still a bit bugged about this quote from bessie’s first post D2:
bessie wrote:Pick for scum partners at end of D1: plytho and jimbobmacdoodle.
This is supposedly independent of moody’s flip. I’m not sure if bessie meant she didn’t take his flip into account or she thinks jimbob and I are scumbuddies either with or without moody. If it’s the former I think it’s a very strange think to post. If it’s the latter I’m bugged by the lack of clarification. This is from a later post:
bessie wrote:
LaserGuy wrote: I don’t think bessie really believes her read of jimbob.
Oh but I do.
Again without clarification. Bessie still seems convinced of jimbob’s scumminess and doesn’t seem to think the moody flip is relevant. If she is confident in a two scum team scenario I can understand that she’d still be convinced of the jimbob=scum idea. But in a one team scenario the moody flip and jimbob’s vote are relevant.
See this. Important part:
bessie wrote:
plytho wrote:This is the only response to my post that I can live with:
bessie wrote:
plytho wrote:So you’re confident that there are two scum teams? Does the jimbob-plytho connection make you confident about the two scum teams, or is it something else?
Where did the “confident” come from?
I was thinking this was a parallel situation to Gamma being suspicious of Sabrar, EGW and me for swinging the vote to moody but I realise it’s not. I’d still like to see bessie explain how I could be a buddy of moody.
Show me anywhere in this entire thread where I said you were on a scum team with moody. I said that at the end of D1 my pick as scum buddies were plytho and jimbobmacdoodle. These were my picks even before moody was lynched, see this post, and therefore this read is independent of moody’s flip. I haven’t given any other speculation today on the setup, or on possible scum partners of moody. But it is quite interesting what you are reading in to my comments.


plytho wrote:
bessie wrote:George, I really should have prepared more over N1, but I didn’t for reasons (overwhelmed and knowing the playing field would thin out a little after N1, nervous I was going to be NKed and didn’t want to put too much in to it to lessen the disappointment, pretty sure some of my content would be suspect anyway because of my reluctance to lynch moody, and other reasons).
The underlined is a strange reason for not working on content N1. I’m not saying you should have provided content. The fact that you (or your content) would be suspect is a reason for you to work on great content.
I covered this somewhere. Although I’m sure you already know I did.

plytho wrote:I guess there are a bunch of things I find suspicious about bessie. The fact that she wasn't on the moody wagon isn't helping her. I’d really like to see her reads on me and jimbob. She’s been calling us scummy and scumbuddies without going into it. She also hasn’t provided a read on Sabrar or Zen all game. The lack of a Zen read is particularly troubling. Bessie also promised to look into LaseGuy’s case on Zen here but doesn’t follow up on it.
D1 analysis of moody here. Response already covered here. And other places. Done chasing ghosts.

If you really want to see my reads on you and jimbob, why are you doing everything you can to keep me from making those reads? You keep asking me to answer the same questions over and over again.

plytho wrote:All of this could come from town!bessie being overwhelmed by this huge game and I know I've personally reduced bessie's available time. Still, a lot of this looks troubling. I guess bessie is a scum lean for me, especially if Zen turns out to be scum.
Interesting how you again infer a connection me to Zen. Why are you so reluctant to actually support this with some analysis? From the immediately preceding post:
plytho wrote:
bessie wrote:
plytho wrote: At that point I was convinced Zen moved the lynch away from moody and scummy looking Gamma. I had a scumlean on bessie and she seemed to fit the team.
You wouldn't care to elaborate on this, would you? What connections did you see between these three players?
I’ll answer this after I’ve finished my reads. The Zen-Gamma-moody connection has been discussed by FrozenFlame and jimbob I believe. You weren’t that strongly connected but I got some pings off you (one of wich will not be named again) that had me leaning scummy. Zen’s confident ‘bessie will join us’, was maybe a ping. I think I was also kind of expecting you to be more sceptical of Zen’s move to jimbob. Ok, I guess I did kind of answer already :)

Oh, new info. You mention me in your Zen read here. I’ll need to think about this for a while to figure out your case. We might be scum partners because we’re not talking? Please consider that I’m not talking to most players, why is that? Because you’re constantly bombarding me with repeat questions?

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@bessie - I acknowledge the response you gave to BoomFrog, but can you see how your neutral stance on moody feels somewhat suspicious given his flip?
I can, from players that don’t know me and moody. Not from BoomFrog or you.

Working on reads until plytho bombards me with more questions.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby mpolo » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:38 pm UTC

plytho is looking more and more reasonable, which means that I need to try comparing him to bessie when I get time.

Gamma's claim is quite a scummy power to have, though I have a fairly scummy power myself, so that is not an absolute scumtell. However, combined with the reactions to pressure and extreme self-preservation drive, I really do not object to lynching him.

Unvote

Vote: Gamma Emerald

In the hopes of getting some consensus before day end.

Ninjaed by bessie's post.
Image <-- Evil experiment

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Spak » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:39 pm UTC

It appears that my computer did a forced restart last night... Looks like I'm re-writing a lot stuff lol.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:It's funny that bessie is getting on plytho for "active lurking", because Spak's posts are the epitome of such. Spak consistently voices his opinion about events/situations that have already been well addressed.

I'm giving my opinion on matters as they happen from my perspective, since I don't skip ahead unless someone has quoted me or asked me directly about something. It's in order to let people see my thought processes, and while I guess it's a little bit of a leap of faith for you to trust that I didn't already read ahead to the resolution, it leaves something for people to look at in the case of my death (rather than just posting a read list). It's not as good as interacting with people realtime as I typically did when I had more time on my hands, but it's the best way I can give people at least some idea of where my head is at and get caught up to be able to talk intelligently with other players.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Since it was the end of the day and the vote count was split between jim, moody, madge, gamma, and ruy, it was fairly clear that no one was gunning for a SirG or Dark Horse at this point. For someone who is trying to get caught up for the end of the day, addressing these things seems like a complete waste of time. I'd expect a town player, who who is behind and trying to get caught up for the end of the day, to be looking into players at this juncture; particularly the top lynch candidates.

I was trying to catch up so that I could make an informed vote by the end of the day. I got caught up, and while I was less informed about the wagon (which was admittedly a downside to the whole ordeal of catching up), I at least knew what was going on and what the main arguments for each side were.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:All of Spak's posts have so obviously been made solely for the sake of having content out there. There is a potential pro-town motivation behind this.

If I'm making content for the sake of making content, that's not pro-town. That's simply self-preservation and unwillingness to scumhunt, which is either lazy town or super scummy.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Your subjective opinion on players is the content that really matters. Spak provides very little of this. When he is commenting on players, he's just praising a post or giving some objective reason as to why someone shouldn't read into something:

That's what I normally comment on, the difference is that my comments actually impact conversation rather than being a day or two removed from it lol. Apparently, my playstyle doesn't work very well retroactively. I usually try to play this game very logically (unless I'm being lynched for no legitimate reason (or unless I'm tunneling super hard (or unless I'm playing with Moosey))). I'm commenting on things I see interesting or relevant at that point in time, not necessarily how I'm feeling at the time. This is why I got an 80 on a response paper in Expository Writing after I responded with a researched argument against the article we were responding to lol.
#HBC | Zyth]The idea that plytho is active lurking is bull to me.[/quote]
Same, glad we can agree.
[quote="#HBC | Zyth wrote:
The overall shape of his play is negative, and there is very little drive to find scum behind it.

There's drive to find scum, but the person that I think is scum has consistently refused to acknowledge my arguments against him.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:
Spak wrote:With that said, I still think that BoomFrog is scummy to the green, slippery, explosive core.

I cannot seriously be the only one that sees that this belief is way too strong for Spak to have.

I cannot seriously be the only one that sees that this wording is meant to be slightly humorous. I do think strongly think that BoomFrog is scum, but I think you need to lighten up a bit if you can't see that green, slippery, and explosive is supposed to represent a frog going boom.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:His entire case on Boom is that:

-Boom should not be able to read Madge from her intro post.
-Boom should not be able to read mpolo from his intro post.

The case has developed a lot since this point, but now you're making me go through and look at my posts on him. I'll figure out how to use the search function on this site eventually...

Let's see. I initially found BoomFrog suspicious because:
Spoiler:
Spak wrote:I'm suspicious of BoomFrog handing out free townie points to everyone who roleclaims early to the point where he said they're town (Madge and Mpolo). If a lot of people claim early, scum knows who to target (or who not to target depending upon their role's importance), which makes me scratch my head at town!Boom rewarding early claims. It makes sense for Madge to claim her role because her role requires collective action and Mpolo could've been launching RVS, but both of those are still null at best. It's also very easy to fake a claim in such a big game because there could be duplicate (or very similar) roles, so a counter-claim could very well lead to a double town lynch.

He then said that they were both influenced by meta reads, and that Madge isn't scum because Scum Madge woulda been more cagey. I thought that meta isn't a good enough reason to straight-up give two slots hard town reads that early in the game. I also found a contradiction in his logic:
Spoiler:
Spak wrote:You said that Scum Madge woulda been more cagey later in that post, but it wasn't stated as your primary reason. Additionally, how would a meta read have impacted your read on Mpolo if meta were your primary reason?

(http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=123409&p=4244099#p4244099)

Which he never addressed, and I brought up to him again. Or at least I didn't think he addressed it until I just re-read through, where I find a counter-case on page 23. Well then, I guess I can drop dodging questions from his list of offences lol. Let's see what we have here:
BoomFrog wrote:I've reread what you've days five times and still don't understand your point. I think we are using the term "meta" differently so I'm going to about that term. Mpolo and Madge "habitually act in certain ways". Mpolo is always very passive, as scum he does not proactively plan a false claim and lay the seed of it early D1. If he was scum he would have been cautious about sharing. Not every player is like that. I'd give Zyth zero town points for sharing early, but mpolo does get them.

But what town!mpolo have to gain from this claim? He'd possibly take people out of RVS. What would scum!mpolo have to gain? He could use his established scum!mpolo meta to say that he wouldn't do that (or maybe his scummates could plant that idea), then possibly fish out some other roles and cause others to give out early breadcrumbs to get a feel for who to target with a NK based on power hints.
Madge is habitually spontaneous and just reads then posts whatever she is thinking. She doesn't stew on things for days, well she does, but only if it's a tough logic problem, not for things like inventing a false claim. And she posts about her stewing because she likes to share. So because of that I think her power is real. As I've just said recently there is a chance she is Indy if her role basically provided the false claim for her, so I agree I gave her a bit too much credit right off the bat. My evidence is that she didn't plan her claim carefully, but that does not 100% lead to she must be town.

I'm glad you acknowledge that it doesn't 100% lead to her being town, but having a vote-based Indy role makes a fakeclaim of her town!Madge role a rather easy one. I find it hard to believe that the claim is anything but null, and I'd be shocked if any moderately-skilled player wouldn't make the same move (assuming either town!Madge or indy!Madge). Casting yourself as a town role that seems properly balanced as an indy with the same description except for a few word changes seems to have worked to turn off a majority of the thread's population and is the easiest way to rack up votes for ability activation.

Madge's play since then leads me to think she's pretty townie, but I don't see how you could've come to such strong conclusions off of such little content.

And that was my case up to that point. You can look at the posts over the past couple of pages for additional reasons that I don't like the slot.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Most of us are approaching this game like a puzzle, trying to fit the pieces together. Spak's approach to the game is taking one of those puzzle pieces and placing it alone on an otherwise empty table.

I call it "modern art" :P

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Spak completely avoided choosing a wagon yesterday. Everyone is looking too deeply at the EoD wagons, looking for conspiracy busses and buddy-save attempts, but if you step back and look at what's right there on the surface, it's the non-commitment that is the most telling. I think that Spak was put in a position where he had to either contribute to the lynch of his mate or potentially draw attention to himself by voting the opposition. He froze and chose neither.

That's completely untrue. I said:
Spak wrote:I still think BoomFrog is super suspicious and really want him to respond to my post on page 13, but am willing to help out with a Moody hammer if I'm needed.

Then voted Madge to try and activate her ability and see if it was a pro-town ability or not.

Spoiler:
Peaceful Whale wrote:I’m not going to be all that active, my cousin just died... :cry: Maybe you’ll have to replace me, I don’t know. I think we’ve used all of our replacements, maybe when someone dies they can sub in for me.

I'm sorry to hear that... My condolences to you and your family.
"As a friend, it is my duty to inform you that your life appears to need more justice."
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:41 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Lying Town = Town who is willing to lie in general = untrustworthy Town

Oh yeah your policy lynching. Really easy excuse not to dig into intent and motives. Interesting that you're willing to psychoanalyze pretty much every player I've pushed:

Sabrar wrote:@EGW: he occasionally does not address the actual content in the post itself, rather what he thinks the implications are. You'll have to wait for a more detailed answer.

Sabrar wrote:This is a prime example where she interprets a remark according to her own views without even considering other possibilities.

Sabrar wrote: talking about what she would do in Spak's place and finding him scummy because his playstyle doesn't match hers. Point C is also blown out of proportion, it is an indicative thing only, not a sure-way scum-tell as she


Yet for me, you're not willing to actually take into account my intent and personality. I've been your target since very early day 1 and you are continuously making up new reasons to justify that suspicion. I've even provided you with my past games to be able to nullify your concerns. It takes an easy skim of any of those games to see that this is completely null tell for me. Ranmaru has even stated this.

Anyway, I'm only responding to this, because I don't want you to have an easy policy excuse to fall back on if I am ever to be lynched. This is just lazy. And I want you to accept that lazyness instead of blaming me as you're doing here.

And if you really believed in this policy, Madge would be in your lynch list too, as she has shown untrustworthy twice now. Yet you're willing to dig into every single one of her past games and actually read her from her mindset.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Gamma Emerald » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:49 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
Gamma Emerald wrote:Also what 8 people do you refer to? I can't recall exactly who has me in their top 4.

bessie
EGW
jimbob
Madge
mpolo
plytho
Ryu
Sabrar

Ryu, plytho, and possibly jimbob are the people I think are scum. Also isn't FF fosing me? If so why am I not in his top 4?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Gamma Emerald » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:54 pm UTC

Bessie I want you to realize that plytho constantly asking you to repeat things instead of letting you get on with things is really shady, and actually VOTE HIM.
I seem to be catching a lot of guff for not wanting to get lynched, but look at it this way. When nearly everyone is pushing you, there's certainly scum pushing you. So I'm trying to not give scum the gratification of lynching me here.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Spak » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:56 pm UTC

Gamma Emerald wrote:Let me ask this: WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK MY PARTNERS ARE DOING?

Sitting in rocking chairs, drinking a pitcher sweet tea and enjoying the show?

Gamma Emerald wrote:They have everything to do with the wagon you dolt! Tell me, do you really think I get wagoned TWICE without some scum interference? Do you think scum would just bus me haphazardly? Because I would REAM THEM!!!! In my first forum mafia game I got pissed because I didn't see the reason one of our buddies was being bussed when we could have pushed a townie instead. I DESPISE pointless bussing. What happened to me in Penguin Mafia Redux I was fine with because IT WAS UNDER OUR CONTROL.

They're not necessarily bussing you; they could very well be on different lynch targets and just not defending you so that there's no association between you guys. Or Maybe this whole charade is to make people think that they're not bussing you in case you actually go down and they manage to jump on the wagon.

@Anyone who has played with or observed Gamma's play before: Does Gamma usually get this mad at everything, do you think he's putting on a show for the sake of his supposed scummates, or do you think he's angerly cracking under pressure?
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Sabrar » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:00 pm UTC

Gamma Emerald wrote:Also isn't FF fosing me? If so why am I not in his top 4?
Sabrar wrote:Only counting those who actually referred to the top4 list.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Spak » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:04 pm UTC


And here we see a game that I played in the summer between my senior year of high school and freshman year of college when I had no job or responsibilities and only four pages of content to hyper-analyze. I've noticed that I tend to do better in small groups.

That was a pretty fun game, though. Thanks for reminding me of it! :)
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby plytho » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:07 pm UTC

bessie wrote:Working on reads until plytho bombards me with more questions.
I'll keep my questions for after your reads.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby #HBC | YOLOSWAG » Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:08 pm UTC

Deadline is Monday, September 25th at 11:59:59 PM EST! With 18 alive, it takes 10 to lynch! https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/j ... t=sanserif

Votals 2.5
Zyth (1): Sabrar
Gamma Emerald (7): plytho, Red Ryu, EGW, Frozenflame, jimbobmacdoodle, Madge, mpolo
plytho (3): Bessie, LaserGuy, Gamma Emerald
Spak (2): BoomFrog, #HBC | Zyth
Not Voting (5): Spak, heuristically_alone, Peaceful Whale, Znirk, Amrock

Judgement Votals
Amrock (6): LaserGuy, plytho, EGW, Frozenflame, Sabrar, mpolo
Laserguy (0)

Not Judgement Voting (12): Red Ryu, Gamma Emerald, Spak, heuristically_alone, Peaceful Whale, Bessie, Znirk, jimbobmacdoodle, Madge, Amrock, Zyth, BoomFrog


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