plytho wrote:These three are in my do not lynch pool until my assumptions are proven wrong. @all If you think I’m wrong about my assumptions leading to these conclusions about Sabrar, EGW or jimbobmacdoodle, please explain why.
I can agree with the two assumptions that you listed, but there is a third assumption that you're making that you did not list: The scum team was strong/confident enough to push another direction. I think this is the assumption that is causing your reasoning to spiral into wrongness. There's more or less three types of ways that scum players proceed through the game: manipulate, blend in, or cower.
Manipulative players are usually confident, at the forefront of things, and pretty opaquely anti-town. (Ex: Zen, plytho).
Blend-in players try to play brownie townie, do and say things that town would, and follow the tides as much as possible. (Ex: jim)
Cowering players say very little, have difficulty making reads, and show little investment in the game. (Ex: Gamma, Moody)
Based on how little moody did to try and save himself, I doubt he and his team thought there was much hope in saving him. And it's likely that scum mostly consists of cautious players. You're forgetting that we did the prevote tally thing before we even started voting. Moody would have looked doomed to a cautious-playing scum team. It would have been too risky in their eyes to go out and try and push for someone else when in all likelihood moody was going to be the play. If they were pushing someone else when moody was lynched, their scummy arses would have been left out right in the open.
Based on this, I don't think you should reason that jim is town. It's totally possible that both wagons consisted of scum, and the team decided to bus the weaker of the two. I do agree with your reasoning on EGW and Sabrar, however, because they switched at a pivotal point and had the strength to lynch Ruy or Gamma. jim's vote was pretty empty from what I can remember.
No it doesn't. I never argued that gamma wasn't mafia because of his wagon, I argued that he wasn't mafia because of the way he was playing.plytho wrote:Btw, this quote from Zen applies to Zen’s town read of Gamma as well.
wutplytho wrote:Zen: His claim about his hidden message is inconsistent with Sabrar’s claim.
A serious attempt to lynch someone I didn't expect people to lynch. If somehow my expectations were broken and people did want to lynch him, I totally would have continued it. It was also a serious attempt at creating a counter wagon to see how things developed. I'm not sure why you think these two had to be mutually exclusive. They weren't.plytho wrote:He still hasn’t clarified what his plan was with the jimbob wagon: serious attempt to lynch a serious read or a weak attempt to tempt scum.
I don't think that if bessie is town, then you have to be scum. I never said this. You just keep extrapolating stuff from my posts that I never had the intention of meaning. What I do think that it is likely that one of you is scum and that one of you is town. That doesn't mean that a town flip on you condemns bessie or that a town flip on bessie condemns you.plytho wrote:Our interaction isn’t necessarily TvS.
What bessie said.plytho wrote:Zen hasn’t provided his case on bessie yet. He wanted to wait for D3. How convenient if scum happens to lynch town!bessie. That way he doesn’t need to make a case and can just push for my lynch.
plytho wrote:Fun triangle: LaserGuy thinks I’m scum, I think Zen is scum, Zen thinks LaserGuy is scum
Reverse: I think LaserGuy is town, Zen thinks I am town, LaserGuy thinks Zen is town?
I'm totally right.
Since you're not responding to bessie today, I'll just ask these myself:
How would Laser's power be too powerful in a game with 20 players? And where the mod implied in the opening post that we would need to clear out lurkers ourselves?
Interesting you didn’t give any indication you ever saw this:
LaserGuy wrote:bessie wrote:Re: lynching lurkers. Perhaps it would be better to try to figure out a way to keep LaserGuy around for a while so he can clear out some of the lurkers for us and we don’t have to waste a lynch?
This is a good idea, but sadly I can't really help out here.
when you were searching for a reason you thought LaserGuy’s power was one shot.
What did you cut out here:
"Bessie: I won’t talk to you D3 and there will be , I look forward to your improved reads."
I do not understand this. You asked me at least two questions like this as well. And you also agreed with Ran about it wrt my mind change with Spak. Why do you think that interaction is necessary for a read to change? Do you not change your mind simply by reevaluating and rereading through players posts?
@Sabrar for us non-statisticians, could you explain what those numbers are and where they were derived from?
bessie wrote:Re Zyth’s read of me here, I didn’t have time to respond before work.I’ve been seriously pondering this comment the past couple of days, because Evil George Washington said something similar, that I don’t interact with him. I have decided that I am quite puzzled as to exactly what kind of interaction you are both expecting, because I feel that I have done my best to answer your questions and interact with both of you. So I think that perhaps this is just a meta difference between how we all approach the game.#HBC | Zyth wrote: i feel like bessie has been surfing over me much of the game. and i agree that the lack of interactions she's had with me is weird.
It's not a meta difference. Others (Laser et al.) have picked up on it as well. What I'm saying and what Ran was saying are different. Ran likes live interactions. That's what he wanted from you. I'm saying that you've done very little prodding and commenting of me and a few others (such as spak and jim and sabrar). It was as if you were waiting to commit to a read one way or the other. It didn't feel like this lack of commitment was coming from being unsure though, because you weren't actively trying to develop these reads through prodding and questioning. So I suspect that you either: (A) just didn't have the time to get into us as deeply as you wanted to, since there were so many players and so much to read; (B) were just waiting to see which way the wind blew before you committed a thorough read on these players; Or (C) were having trouble faking a read on us. Again, I feel like if it were the first case -- you not having enough time to do a deep analysis -- that you still would have been prodding and questioning us.You forgot to mention that I surfed over Sabrar. And I feel made enough points on jimbob spread out over D1 to justify my vote (I just did not compile them into a single post), not as many D2 but he didn’t ask me many questions. And seriously do you not see my issues with plytho? Most of my D2 content was related to him.#HBC | Zyth wrote: bessie has also surfed over a number of other ppl. the big ones being spak and jimbob (though i can't blame her for the latter, jimbob is a tough one to dig into). she has kept herself at a distance from those three (zen, spak, jim) all game. this despite jim having been one of her main scum reads (d1 in particular). ive been waiting all game for her analyses of these slots. and every time i think she's gonna do it, she just kind of glances over them. this makes me feel that scum!bessie is having difficulty faking reads on these slots. she's also having difficulty fake hunting. she has not really made any real pursuits to unpack her scum leads (such as jim and plytho).
I honestly don't know what you find scummy about jim. I also don't think you've argued why plytho is scum rather than simply plytho.No. plytho was fishing for setup information. And from my point of view, (1) it made perfect sense for me to react the way I did, (2) it did not make sense for me to reveal my concerns by telling plytho what they were, and he went on to fish pretty heavily for them anyway, and (3) it was either talk around it or say it, and I didn’t want to say it, that’s what this disagreement was about. And me misreading this is your opinion, I don’t think I’m misreading this at all. Past experience, read Refrigerator Mafia D1.#HBC | Zyth wrote: furthermore, plytho was actually in the right in the whole bessie v plytho thing. although plytho's "we gotta make sure protectors see it" thing was pretty wack, it didn't make much sense for bessie to react the way she did towards plytho when he pointed out her not mentioning pws claim. she could've easily told pw not to say any more and make clear to plytho what he concerns were. instead she just talked around it until finally coming up with an answer d2. this to me is one of the weaker points on bessie though because it's possible she reacted this way due to her past experience with plytho. that past experience could've caused her to misread the situation here.
I read over plytho in Fridge. You're either misreading this situation because of Fridge, or you're intentionally misconstruing it.
@bessie can you tell us more about PW's role? Did he target you n0 or n1? Did his ability target a player and if they were town they became a Mason with him? Or were you already Masons and he was a one-shot Cop. Or was he a one-shot Cop and a one-shot Masonizer?
Holy shyt. Just read the rest of your post. Many great observations and questions. I really would like to know though what you found scummy about jim before end of d2.
@bessie, I disagree that it was scummy for people to ask for PWs results near the end of D2. He had outted too much of is role and was very likely to be the nk. From our pov (not knowing he was Mason), it was too risky for him not to fully out, because we would have been losing the information if he was nkd.