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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:39 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Laser. Laser's play is the most different to me. He was much more sure and confident in DT. His posts were well thought out and articulate. In this game, his thoughts and pushes shift around. Based on the play difference, I thought dt_Laser was town. I was pretty shocked to see it was the opposite.

After LaserGuy tanked as scum D1 in X-Men I have him some advice about how to play scum better. :D He's an adaptable player so don't give him a pass just for bring different. Also he and JimBob had excellent coaching from SDK which affected their behavior somewhat.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:43 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Zen, EGW, and anybody else supporting the tree stump Madge thing (BoomFrog?):

I was violently against it and attacked Sabrar for bring soft on defending against it.* This tells me that you were not paying attention to this issue D2 and are just jumping on it now.

*Note: Sabrar later explained and I can see he was simply analyzing a hypothetical as he loves to do.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:03 pm UTC

I don't like the "It was a bait, lol" bit from LaserGuy. How convenient that you get to reinforce your scum-read on EGW because of that.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Red Ryu » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:08 pm UTC

vote: Madge

the slot stumps or we lynch it, 2 days of nothing and I either want it gone or stumping.

Dunno how I feel about Zen v Sabrar I like both slots but I kind of see where Sabrar is coming from even if I do not agree with making fake cases and diverting attention.

Only basing this on the last two pages, since too many walks and pages for me at work busy.

What has Frog posted of value today?

Bessie, should you be giving a meta town to Madge? How much non helpful posting before we say enough?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:16 pm UTC

plytho wrote:I felt BoomFrog’s points made sense and you didn’t address them. I wasn’t trying to push gamma over moody&jim. I was voting gamma over Red Ryu and moody and didn’t care that much about any of them. Then I pushed any of them against jimbob. It happened to be moody because of EGW and Sabrar.


Kind of looks to me like you preferred Gamma.

plytho wrote:I keep mentioning it because you said I was “definitely not scum with moody” in one of your first reads lists.


Fair enough. Though that was from the point of view of two scumteams, where I felt that your behaviour was only really plausible in a team like {plytho, jimbob, moody}, which I felt was a sufficiently unlikely scenario that I could safely dismiss it. If there's only one scumteam, there's more plausible reasons that you may have bussed.

plytho wrote:It would be a very weird stance for me to take as scum on moody’s team. And one team is looking more and more likely.


I don't really agree with this. If there is only one scumteam (which I agree seem more likely), then I would imagine that at least a few of the members of the team would have bussed moody.

plytho wrote:First: that quote was a response to Red Ryu, very late into D1. I think at that point it was already moody vs jimbob. So at that point it really was a terrible idea.

I was just picking one quote at random to highlight the issue. Your opinion here hasn't changed though, as you've posted similar things more recently:
plytho wrote:This thought I had: “some people town reading Gamma might be scum” is similar to my issue with the early SirG lynch plan pushers. It’s not a definite scum tell, but it’s kind of scum bait. It’s appealing for scum, so they might use this opportunity.


1: because scum (or at least mafia, I was surprised Spak helped tow there) was never going to be the hammer


Yes. This is why the plan would have actually worked. The point was not to get mafia to take the hammer; the point was to catch mislynches because mafia would not do so. At worst, we're sacrificing a townie player that is so scummy that eight or ten people were willing to vote for them, so even if GlaDOS weren't present, unless that person is going to be claiming Cop or Doctor, then it's going to be a mislynch anyway.

plytho wrote:The judgement took away the time pressure, making the whole thing a lot easier to accomplish. The logistics of hammering GLaDOS with the judgement are different than they are with a regular lynch.


Fair enough.

plytho wrote:I was aware that mpolo could be scum but he’d out himself by picking bad targets.


How so? The only way he can redirect the kill to GlaDOS is by targeting a townie and redirecting them to GlaDOS. If he were scum, it would be pretty trivial for him to come with a reason to target player X, while his scumbuddies target player Y. Maybe very late in the game this might become an issue, but with mpolo as scum they probably could dodge this basically indefinitely. Or, again, even if mpolo weren't scum, if they knew this was the plan, they could mess with us by intentionally throwing the kill at GlaDOS and killing whomever mpolo was targeting.

plytho wrote:Frozen is not in the same situation as Zen on the jimbob wagon. The reason I opposed Zen on the jimbob wagon is because his push seemed to come out of nowhere and I felt he was acting against town by pushing a weak wagon late D1. Frozen was voting jimbob at that point and without Zen’s push I assume he’d vote for one of the other three wagons.


Again, I feel like you're just making excuse for Frozen here. He jumped on the jimbob wagon early and never engaged with any of the other wagons at all, only jumping to moody extremely late. Why are you giving him a pass?

plytho wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:blatantly misrepresenting my case on Frozen, and supposedly


I already admitted that was a weaker point


You still haven't explained why you misrepresented what I was saying, or commented on my actual argument about Frozen once I corrected you.

plytho wrote:Probably this post from Frozen where he points out connections between moody-Gamma and moody-Zen:
viewtopic.php?p=4248826#p4248826


Did you read what he said about moody-Gamma? He's basing it on the fact that moody had Gamma as "very slightly" town, but dismisses the same connection between you and moody, where moody called you "very slightly" scum and that he'd be fine lynching either Red Ryu or Gamma, which is also, I note, exactly the same position you were taking. What part of this argument did you find compelling?

plytho wrote:And this post from jimbob:
viewtopic.php?p=4249191#p4249191


This one is a bit better. But jim runs into the same problem that I did when I posed a similar sort of question to Zyth earlier in D2. Why not just lynch Red Ryu? The votes were there. If scum was Gamma-moody-Zyth, there's no reason for them to try to wagon jimbob over Red Ryu. Unless you think RR was also on their team? Pushing hard on jimbob and having him flip town would have looked much worse for them than helping along a wagon that already had a lot of support.

plytho wrote:@plytho: What is your read on Zyth now that Gamma is out of the picture?
I still don’t trust him. He’s manipulative and ambiguous. Loads of what he posts is solid but I don’t feel like I can trust him on anything.[/quote]

If Zen flips town tonight, who do you think is scum?

plytho wrote:I don’t like that FrozenFlame hasn’t done a proper reads list yet. He’s one of my lynchables.


Why wasn't he in D2?

plytho wrote:I’ve always said that liking the plan doesn’t necessarily make one scummy but being scum makes one like the plan. So when I make a case (like I did on Zen) I can take it into account. This is a small piece of the puzzle, it’s not the cornerstone of my read. If I make a case on Sabrar, BoomFrog, or FrozenFlame I might include that bit. Reading Gamma as town is a similar thing. I could very well be scum, trying to score townie points by town reading someone playing scummy. It could also be town being wrong.


Why is it okay for you to read people as scummy for townreading Gamma, but not okay for me have been giving townie credit to Gamma for having (FMPOV) scummy people voting for him?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Red Ryu » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:20 pm UTC

Really strongly dislike it laserguys thought process, trying to find boom’s earlier posts.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06s.

Postby #HBC | Red Ryu » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:25 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:@ Ruy, Bessie, egw, mpolo, zen, Frozen, Yolinda, Sabrar, Madge, Boom: let's hard body quick lynch laser (Madge hammers) and call it a day.


I’m all for this.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Red Ryu » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:40 pm UTC

Madge wrote:Why do people want me to hammer? Is it just to prove the tree stump thing? I would ask to be mislynched instead (because face it, it's probably the ONLY WAY people will believe I'm town), except for the obvious fact that my mislynch would prevent a possible scum lynch. Even so, you're still effectively mislynching me because you are all talking about how useless my reads/etc are, so why make me limp through the game as a powerless tree stump? I'll still do my best because I'm 55 pages in and I'll be damned if I let a grudge hurt town, but it's not like it's going to have 0 impact on my motivation levels, you know?

Anyway, I'm happy to full claim all three of my powers if it'll stop me being tree-stumped. I'm becoming convinced that my powers will be useless in my hands anyway, and that's assuming I even manage to wield them.

Thoughts on the mason cop thing: (tldr: I think that PW was probably a mason who was also a cop, but on the off chance we don't have any more masons confirming him eventually we should reconsider that he may not have been)

Spoiler:
what does the power do? Is it a cop that tells you if the target is a mason? Or is it a cop that is also a mason? I'm worried that if it's the former we're going to trust bessie for no reason. (wait, did mpolo claim to be PW's mason buddy? I feel like someine implied that? If so that alleivates my concerns)

plytho wrote:A one shot communication cop seems like a weak power for this game.

See, I'd see that as being somewhat in line with my power - but maybe I'm just bitter. My power is better (three shot, third power is definitely better than communication cop), but realistically I'm not sure how the mod thought it'd be able to be activated.


Evil George Washington wrote:
Madge wrote:I'm surprised Sabrar didn't know that GLaDOS is stated to kill the NKer or hammerer as that was explicitly stated (I don't know where - I can't find it again - but I definitely read it somewhere!!!). He's usually so thorough. This is a huge game so easy to miss, but still... and I'm more surprised nobody has pointed that out, and that SirGabriel is being cagey about it. (Then again, I didn't actually find where I read that, but I definitely DID read it SOMEWHERE!)


Why were you surprised Sabrar didn't know about that?


...Because of all the stuff I said in the quote? Sabrar is normally thorough and I thought the "hammerer kills glados" thing was common knowledge posted in the thread. Looks like I was mistaken and I got the hammer thing from the fact that hammer count as me causing a death (via my PM), so I conflated the two (and rightly so it would seem)

======
TABLE OF CLAIMS:
Madge: Some weird half-jester (is given powers if she is half-lynched; tree stumps if she hammers a lynch)

(am I the only one who claimed? that's good I suppose, easy to keep track of - but bad for me figuring shit out, though I want to make sure everyone knows that I don't want people to take this as a request that they claim for my sake)


What part of your play wasn’t revolving around your roles?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:42 pm UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:See who was worried that maybe I had an undisclosed night result or something that would blow their case open, maybe.


Why would I consider that? You already had used your judgement ability. PW flipped Mason-cop. Question for you: Have you considered you may be wrong on me? Any reads at this moment?


When I posted that originally, I was just interested to see what reactions I would get. D3, I find you have suddenly moved your read on Zyth from a strong scumread to null and are very interested in finding out what I thought about Zyth.

Yes, I've considered the possibility I'm wrong. But that's true about every read. I'm not committed to you being scum, if that's what you're asking. I just think it's rather more likely than not, which is the best I can do.

My reads haven't really changed much since the end of the day. Sabrar is looking much better to me D3.

EGW wrote:At the time, I thought he was trying to save Gamma, which was why I found Zen pushing gamma interesting at that time. I also thought Gamma was trying to save him in return.


Can you explain the logic here? Did you think scum was Gamma-Spak-Zyth-moody?

EGW wrote:I mean, did you mention that in your reads D2? Just wondering if you ever gave progression on that D2, and if i missed it, maybe you could link me/quote?


Scanning back it doesn't look like I did. Sabrar wasn't really on my radar for most of D2.

EGW wrote:Also, LaserGuy. Can you tell me how your play here is different from your DT play?


:?
There isn't really a way that I can answer this that isn't going to look like wine. Better to ask BoomFrog (who has already commented on this), bessie, or jimbob. Or Frozen, I guess. Or read my ISO in Dark Tower and see for yourself.

EGW wrote:Yes but the ISO came after you dropping the Zen case and you stating you have been convinced he was town. When exactly did you do the ISO? When did you post your conclusion? Did you note that you ISO'd him?


I outlined my progression on Zyth in this post under the second spoiler. If it's difficult to follow, I can link it to the relevant posts.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:42 pm UTC

#HBC | Red Ryu wrote:Really strongly dislike it laserguys thought process, trying to find boom’s earlier posts.


Which parts of my thought process do you dislike?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:44 pm UTC

#HBC | Red Ryu wrote:Dunno how I feel about Zen v Sabrar I like both slots but I kind of see where Sabrar is coming from even if I do not agree with making fake cases and diverting attention.


When was Sabrar doing this?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:03 pm UTC

I thought I would have time to catch up, reply to people and make a read list on the bus this morning. That was obviously optimistic. So here is a hurried read list, I can justify want people want more detail on.

Town:
Bessie - I have a slightly different theory the the consensus about what happened with PW, but the end result is still that Bessie is town.

Madge - Lazy but town

Zen - She's sincerely trying to shake things up. Also I'm pretty sure JimBob is scum and Zen wouldn't bus him.
Sabrar - Barring evidence of a second scum team he's town. Needs to reconsider Zen (and me) but I can see where he's coming from. Think about how I pulled the wagon in a bunch of directions in X-Men D1. That's what Zen was trying to do D1. You didn't like it but it did get us sincere interactions between a lot of players and that's what let us draw connections so early. (And yes, you get the credit for analyzing the connections correctly, but I revealed the connections)

EGW - He's no chessmaster and I don't think he's a Yoloswag clone either, so bussing Moody D1 makes no sense. He's parinoid, but I can't fault him for that.

Plytho - SoulRead: In fridge he sincerely believed that his interaction with Bessie was what he'd do as town, but he got lynched for it. This game when he clashed with Bessie, if he was scum he would have self censored faster because he didn't want to confirm others claim that his nitpicking was scummy. But since he's town he doubled down on the nitpicking so at the end if the game he can say, "see! I do it as town too!". When it became apparent that his nitpicking was causing Bessie actual distress he tried to back off, first by waiting to ask questions, then putting them in a spoiler, then when Bessie still couldn't restrain herself from spending most of her time Answering him he declared he wouldn't talk to her. He's trying his best to not mess with her. (Bessie: at this point I have to say you are causing your own problem, plytho had not been intentionally antagonizing you).

mpolo - No change but riding on my original townie lean. He's been picking reasonable targets. Hopefully can provide a town to scum list, even if it's just impressions.

h_a / Yolinda : Little idea. Hopefully Yolinda can post soon. I have a vague memory that my impression was townie 50 pages ago.

Scum:
Red - I can barely follow his train of thought when he addresses me directly. I've seen a lot of poking and changing of reads. I'd love to see a town to scum ordered list from him. Scummy by PoE.

LaserGuy - opportunistic and manipulative (scummy but also just how he is). I could see his ability being on scum with a restriction that it has to be used before a certain day. I could also see him promising to take the bomb because he thinks he has to our he will be revealed as scummy like he was D1 of X-Men for choosing no lynch over self hammer. Targeting Zen was very aggressive, I'd have gone for someone easier to go after like Gamma, Red or Spak. Although Laser is confident as scum or town and he is ambitious. As scum he'd probably go for the easier target. I don't know, I'm all over the place on Laser. Scum lean but not my top lynch choice.

FF - I'm going to need to see an epic reads list to dig himself out of this active lurking hole.

JimBob - D2 his reads are very opportunistic, I'm going have to go back later to pull out quotes if I can (and confirm my memory). He is keeping up with the thread but he's all reactions. He's just trying to coast by. Not putting any pressure on anyone. He's hiding behind his walls of text. If he actually wanted to contribute to the thread he'd try to condense his reads. All the other wall-of-text type players have tried to reign it in. Bessie tried but values thoroughness over brevity. Plytho self censored. LaserGuy at least organized things well and pulled out summaries. JimBob is just posting huge walls and not caring that they aren't being read seriously.

Anyone I forgot is probably scum. That took an hour longer then I meant to. I need to get back to work.

Vote JimBob
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:53 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
#HBC | Red Ryu wrote:Dunno how I feel about Zen v Sabrar I like both slots but I kind of see where Sabrar is coming from even if I do not agree with making fake cases and diverting attention.

When was Sabrar doing this?

Also interested.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:03 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:EGW - He's no chessmaster
Where does this come from?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:21 pm UTC

FrozenFlame was online 2 hours ago.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:43 pm UTC

That's more than 48 hours into D3 now?
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:45 pm UTC

answers to LaserGuy
Spoiler:
LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:I felt BoomFrog’s points made sense and you didn’t address them. I wasn’t trying to push gamma over moody&jim. I was voting gamma over Red Ryu and moody and didn’t care that much about any of them. Then I pushed any of them against jimbob. It happened to be moody because of EGW and Sabrar.


Kind of looks to me like you preferred Gamma.

Umm, yeah, I’m not sure what you’re refuting here? It’s right there in my quote. I underlined it now.

LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:It would be a very weird stance for me to take as scum on moody’s team. And one team is looking more and more likely.


I don't really agree with this. If there is only one scumteam (which I agree seem more likely), then I would imagine that at least a few of the members of the team would have bussed moody.
Sure, but would I, who preferred Gamma, make a strong stance against the jimbob (my supposed buddy) lynch and happily switch to moody (my supposed buddy) instead of fighting for a Gamma wagon? That’s the weird stance I meant.

LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:First: that quote was a response to Red Ryu, very late into D1. I think at that point it was already moody vs jimbob. So at that point it really was a terrible idea.

I was just picking one quote at random to highlight the issue. Your opinion here hasn't changed though, as you've posted similar things more recently:
plytho wrote:This thought I had: “some people town reading Gamma might be scum” is similar to my issue with the early SirG lynch plan pushers. It’s not a definite scum tell, but it’s kind of scum bait. It’s appealing for scum, so they might use this opportunity.


1: because scum (or at least mafia, I was surprised Spak helped tow there) was never going to be the hammer


Yes. This is why the plan would have actually worked. The point was not to get mafia to take the hammer; the point was to catch mislynches because mafia would not do so. At worst, we're sacrificing a townie player that is so scummy that eight or ten people were willing to vote for them, so even if GlaDOS weren't present, unless that person is going to be claiming Cop or Doctor, then it's going to be a mislynch anyway.
Can you please compare the plan I was against to the plan you are for. It’s right there in the post you’re taking these quotes from. Red Ryu’s quote is a fine example here as it completely ignores the logistics.


LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:I was aware that mpolo could be scum but he’d out himself by picking bad targets.


How so? The only way he can redirect the kill to GlaDOS is by targeting a townie and redirecting them to GlaDOS. If he were scum, it would be pretty trivial for him to come with a reason to target player X, while his scumbuddies target player Y. Maybe very late in the game this might become an issue, but with mpolo as scum they probably could dodge this basically indefinitely. Or, again, even if mpolo weren't scum, if they knew this was the plan, they could mess with us by intentionally throwing the kill at GlaDOS and killing whomever mpolo was targeting.
I guess I didn’t really think this part through. But the case where they dodge infinitely is the same as the case where we try a few nights before sacrificing a townie.


LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:Frozen is not in the same situation as Zen on the jimbob wagon. The reason I opposed Zen on the jimbob wagon is because his push seemed to come out of nowhere and I felt he was acting against town by pushing a weak wagon late D1. Frozen was voting jimbob at that point and without Zen’s push I assume he’d vote for one of the other three wagons.


Again, I feel like you're just making excuse for Frozen here. He jumped on the jimbob wagon early and never engaged with any of the other wagons at all, only jumping to moody extremely late. Why are you giving him a pass?
I’m not giving him a pass. His role on the jimbob wagon was very different from Zen’s. I attacked Zen for building a late wagon away from the three top candidates. Frozen didn’t do that so I didn’t attack him for that. I know Frozen was on the jimbob wagon and only moved after Zen did. For that I have consistently called him scummy.

LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:blatantly misrepresenting my case on Frozen, and supposedly


I already admitted that was a weaker point


You still haven't explained why you misrepresented what I was saying, or commented on my actual argument about Frozen once I corrected you.
Because like others I like three examples. And I didn’t entirely misrepresent you, I did exaggerate. I was pointing out that you relied on your reads to much to make other reads. I didn’t think Frozen was active lurking.

LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:Probably this post from Frozen where he points out connections between moody-Gamma and moody-Zen:
viewtopic.php?p=4248826#p4248826


Did you read what he said about moody-Gamma? He's basing it on the fact that moody had Gamma as "very slightly" town, but dismisses the same connection between you and moody, where moody called you "very slightly" scum and that he'd be fine lynching either Red Ryu or Gamma, which is also, I note, exactly the same position you were taking. What part of this argument did you find compelling?
I didn’t say I found his argument compelling. I was pointing out that I wasn’t the only one seeing links between the three.
LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:And this post from jimbob:
viewtopic.php?p=4249191#p4249191


This one is a bit better. But jim runs into the same problem that I did when I posed a similar sort of question to Zyth earlier in D2. Why not just lynch Red Ryu? The votes were there. If scum was Gamma-moody-Zyth, there's no reason for them to try to wagon jimbob over Red Ryu. Unless you think RR was also on their team? Pushing hard on jimbob and having him flip town would have looked much worse for them than helping along a wagon that already had a lot of support.
I can see Zen making a move like that though.

LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:@plytho: What is your read on Zyth now that Gamma is out of the picture?
I still don’t trust him. He’s manipulative and ambiguous. Loads of what he posts is solid but I don’t feel like I can trust him on anything.


If Zen flips town tonight, who do you think is scum?[/quote] Some of the other 5 people on my list

LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:I don’t like that FrozenFlame hasn’t done a proper reads list yet. He’s one of my lynchables.


Why wasn't he in D2?[/url] I had a stronger read on Gamma and Spak.

LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:I’ve always said that liking the plan doesn’t necessarily make one scummy but being scum makes one like the plan. So when I make a case (like I did on Zen) I can take it into account. This is a small piece of the puzzle, it’s not the cornerstone of my read. If I make a case on Sabrar, BoomFrog, or FrozenFlame I might include that bit. Reading Gamma as town is a similar thing. I could very well be scum, trying to score townie points by town reading someone playing scummy. It could also be town being wrong.


Why is it okay for you to read people as scummy for townreading Gamma, but not okay for me have been giving townie credit to Gamma for having (FMPOV) scummy people voting for him?
There’s a difference. I’m reading people as scummy for townreading Gamma after his alignment is known. Not because I’m reading him as scummy but because he’s confirmed indie. I’m not relying on my own read.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:53 pm UTC

Some random thoughts

I like how Zen’s ambiguity extends to his name and pronouns.

mpolo wrote:Although I suppose you could argue that the nature of Madge's power would be much easier to use as scum, since scum slips are bound to get you some votes here and there.
This isn’t even true for Madge’s claimed power. Having half the votes required for lynch at Day’s end is quite different from having a few votes here and there.

Btw, I don’t think getting Madge’s first power activated is a hopeless endeavour. It was before with all the inactives but (unless Yolinda and Frozen don’t show today) that’s not the case anymore.

@EGW: looking at LaserGuy’s Zen read I noticed that we’re both paranoid as it comes to Zen. Reading his moves on Spak as a bus sounds kind of paranoid to me :)
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:57 pm UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:LaserGuy is scum. D2 he chainsaw attacks me for pushing Boomfrog
You have BoomFrog as your 3rd most townie here and I can only find you mentioning him here before LaserGuy goes for you here (pedit: also here and here but irrelevant). That's not pushing him and is very far from enough to justify a chainsaw. Show me what I missed.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:13 pm UTC

Thoughts on my bottom 6: thougts in spoiler + tldr outside

Yolinda:
Spoiler:
Can’t really say anything here. If he doesn’t post today we might be better off lynching him (although yolo has used his modkill on Zirk the lurk, so might do it again here). (has been online since D3 started)
null


Mpolo:
Spoiler:
Still has some credit for his early claim. If he is scum he’s given himself a tough job of explaining why he chose which targets each morning. For scum the redirect is a very powerful tool to sow misinformation all game. Of course outing himselfs gives him townie credit, but it does hand his power to town. He was also willing to sacrifice himself on the bomb. He was the second to last vote when he went to bed six hours before deadline. Only LaserGuy was voting after him. For all he knew LaserGuy would unvote later and mpolo would be the hammer.
Mpolo’s actions make me lean town on him.


FrozenFlame:
Spoiler:
Has been online since D3 started. He missed 4 days of D2 as well.

FrozenFlame wrote:Oh wow shocking gamma was anti town

Geez Im so ashamed of myself for not scum hunting because clearly the people Ive been calling for as top plays have proven to be total townies and I really ought to be putting hours and hours of additional work into this game because Ive been sooooooo off base with the wagons Ive picked

Thats all sarcasm btw
In this quote FrozenFlame is trying to make himself look better than he is. He picked one good wagon D2 (Gamma), a wagon that’s fine for scum as well btw. D1 he picked jimbob (alignment unknown, but FF was leaning town on jimbob by then) and could have gone for Gamma too. Here’s what he said about the best wagon so far:
FrozenFlame wrote: I'm stick with the Jim wagon but if people are that bent out of shape about it I think Gamma is a great alternative. This moody wagon gives me really bad vibes
FF appears to claim he’s doing enough scum hunting by correctly reading gamma as anti town.

I’d really like an updated reads list from FF.
No reads and taking more credit than he deserves.


Red Ryu:
Spoiler:
His posts are hard to read but here’s something I noticed:
#HBC | Red Ryu wrote:Reads:
100 confirmed furry ruy townie: Red Ryu
Town: Evil George Washington, plytho, Frozenflame, Peaceful Whale, Laserguy
Townlean: Sabrar
null: Bessie, jimbobmacdoodle, mpolo, Spak(needs to be more active or would be townlead)
scum lean: Madge(reread content not a fan), #HBC | Zyth,
scum: Gamma Emerald(inactive and dislike content that was posted end of d1 and d2), BoomFrog, Znirk(inactive can die), heuristically_alone(inactive can die),
Gonna die to judgement: Amrock

FrozenFlame looks out of place in the town category.

Compare this to FF in Sabrar’s Average rank:
EGW 2,3
Sabrar 4,6
Madge 5,45
PW 6,36
bessie 6,4
jimbob 7
BoomFrog 7,5
Laserguy 7,5
mpolo 7,7
Red Ryu 7,8
plytho 8,3
FrozenFlame 8,5
Zen 9,2
Yolinda 9,36


I haven’t really seen Red Ryu’s reason for reading FF as town. All I could find was
#HBC | Red Ryu wrote:I think this is also 5 judgement based on FF's post. Also I think I am of FF right now.
near the top of this post.

Red Ryu becomes pretty defensive about Frozen.
defending Frozen a lot.


BoomFrog:
Spoiler:
I think BoomFrog is also (like Zen) a manipulative player. His motives aren’t always clear. I find myself agreeing with bessie on BoomFrog’s rolefishing of PW. His “moody and jim are likely buddies” line (before the lynch) was also a weird one. He’s one of the people that was pushing a haphazard SirG lynch and he was town reading Gamma for his ‘town-slip’. He also did the one or both of LaserGuy or plytho must be scum without proper reasoning except that we ‘both go for all the wrong people for all the wrong reasons’. There’s no good reason to group us. This is also kind of weird.
BoomFrog wrote:I don't mean an actual vote I mean people putting him in their low 4. Moody's mood was that on someone whose teammates have given up on him. The real place to analyze is the low 4 prevotes.
I disagree that the real place to analyze is the top 4’s. Sure, some buddies will have put moody in their top 4. But that’s no reason for moody to give up when there’s two equally viable counter candidates.
Lots of suspicious stuff.


Zen: I ran out of time for Zen (I answered LaserGuy's questions first) I'll get to Zen tomorrow.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:30 pm UTC

@BoomFrog:
Spoiler:
BoomFrog wrote:I was violently against it and attacked Sabrar for bring soft on defending against it.* This tells me that you were not paying attention to this issue D2 and are just jumping on it now.
Sorry BoomFrog, I was going off memory, when I put your name as the possible alternative - it was LaserGuy's post here that I was thinking of when I wrote it, but I was phone posting, and it was too much effort to go back and figure it out. I thought it was clear from the question mark that I wasn't certain - you're reacting a little strongly aren't you to that statement? Also, regarding paying attention to D2, many people's opinions on strategy are not really sticking with me because of the volume of posting.
BoomFrog wrote:D2 his reads are very opportunistic, I'm going have to go back later to pull out quotes if I can (and confirm my memory). He is keeping up with the thread but he's all reactions. He's just trying to coast by. Not putting any pressure on anyone. He's hiding behind his walls of text. If he actually wanted to contribute to the thread he'd try to condense his reads. All the other wall-of-text type players have tried to reign it in. Bessie tried but values thoroughness over brevity. Plytho self censored. LaserGuy at least organized things well and pulled out summaries. JimBob is just posting huge walls and not caring that they aren't being read seriously.
Please explain what you mean by opportunistic, because I really don't agree. Are you saying that I'm scum because I read people who looked scummy to lots of players as scum?

I'm only just keeping up with the thread. I'm still finding that I barely get through all the overnight posts before I'm at work, so only really have time in the evening to post in any real depth, and then I don't always have the time or desire to do so, necessarily, but I do what I can. You should also know by now that I don't put that much pressure on people, at least in early game, when there's too many options. However, you'll also see that there are plenty of questions in my D2 posts in between the read-walls, which is the closest I get (see for example this post). As for being reactionary, I won't entirely deny that - my order of priority is 1) Respond to questions asked of me and points raised against me. 2) Get a read of as many people as possible (with no weekend during D3, this is unlikely to be everybody this time), so that I can make an informed vote. 3) Ask questions, and respond to other things that aren't directly involving me and aren't tied with things that come up during my reads. There are plenty of people putting pressure on others, and generating content from all necks of the woods, so I'd rather use my time getting my own thoughts in order first.

As for your comments on my walls of text, you're being ridiculous and also either aren't reading or are forgetting my posts. Take a look back at any of my D2 read posts. You will see that every one of them has a concluding paragraph, marked "Conclusion" which is the summary of what I've said in the previous paragraph(s), if people didn't want to read the full wall (which is basically my stream of consciousness as I read through them post-by-post). I realised as things went on that I should start hiding the rest of the content in spoilers to make it easier to read, which is what I did, but the conclusion was always there out in the open. However, I still felt it was valuable to post my full set of thoughts - typing them up helps me to clarify them, and once I've typed them, there's no point in discarding them, as some people may find them useful. Just because this is not how you or others play does not make it wrong.
@bessie:
Spoiler:
bessie wrote:Disagree. Soft claiming and claiming are not the same thing, even if the soft claim was unintentionally obvious.
In my view an obvious soft claim is not really different from a full claim, but besides I didn't ask him to give a definitive answer with an explanation. In fact, I deliberately said he didn't need to justify his response, in case he didn't want to disclose his full role.
bessie wrote:So you’re implying that since everyone says you’re not moody’s buddy, I’m the odd one for not following the pack?
Would you disagree with that statement? I want to know [url]why[/url] you're not following the consensus.
bessie wrote:Where did anyone actually see Madge attempt to do some of these things she’s being given credit for doing?
To me, that's not relevant in this case. The fact is that she offered, unprompted, to do so. If we'd decided to take her up on the offer, and refused, then she would be seen as extremely scummy, in my opinion.
@mpolo - you missed my follow up to your response. Why not pick your top scum candidate as one of your targets?

EGW, you say that Madge is a liability since D1, and I don't disagree (she's not been helpful at all), but why do you think that neutering any chance she has of being useful later in the game (as has been indicated by multiple people as being likely) is the best plan? Do you believe that she won't get any better as the game progresses?
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:38 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:EGW, you say that Madge is a liability since D1, and I don't disagree (she's not been helpful at all), but why do you think that neutering any chance she has of being useful later in the game (as has been indicated by multiple people as being likely) is the best plan? Do you believe that she won't get any better as the game progresses?


@EGW: Also, why do you feel so strongly about stumping Madge, but are willing to give a pass to FrozenFlame for what amounts to the same reason?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:26 pm UTC

Rereading FrozenFlame:
Spoiler:
Agrees over Peaceful Whale scummy "reads" list. Later justifies it by following Sabrar. Finds mpolo's claim curious, long after the claim was made. Explains PW reads list as noob tell. No sign of any significant interaction with moody. Phrasing later regarding Peaceful Whale's reads list implies he didn't really think about it much. Most posts contain very little unprovoked original content - lots of question responses, and agreements with what others have said though. First comment on moody is null, and then only in response to being asked. This post is significant however. He points out that moody's reads list seems like a scum skim, and was one of the first people to actually comment on the post. Spends an awful lot of time pushing the lynch SirG strategy (admittedly in response to questions). Backs off moody by saying the wagon gives him "really bad vibes". Lots of posts discuss setup, and related strategy topics. Pushes Gamma as an alternative lynch wagon to mine, instead of moody. Late switch to moody, still wanting Gamma lynched. D2, initial pressure on mpolo, but subsequently withdrawn. Pushes against lynching Zyth - prefers to lynch low impact players. Looks at interactions with moody. Joins the wagon for Gamma. Confused by the end of day vote mixing around.
@FrozenFlame:
1) Why did you originally agree with Sabrar over PW's "scummy" reads list, before Sabrar clarified his reasoning? You originally seem to find his reads list scummy, not just a noob tell as you later say.
2) What was "curious" about mpolo's claim? Why didn't you comment on it before Maven brought it up?
3) Why would scum!mpolo want to redirect shots aimed at SirG/Amrock onto Zyth? What sort of shots did you have in mind?
4) In this post, you said that you were being asked to push mine and Gamma's wagons more, and "you literally declined". Similarly, you said " I said that I wasn't going to try to make a push for those wagons if people werent feeling them but I also wasn't going to say I agreed that moody was the better play". I cannot see where you said/did these things. Please point it out.

Conclusion: There are four things that stood out to me about FrozenFlame on my latest re-read of him. 1) Him highlighting the scum-skim by moody in his reads list. 2) Aside from the point in 1), a generally null read on moody, and very little interactions with him. 3) His lack of significant efforts to scum hunt. 4) His end of day confusion over what was going on with the lynch, and why we were lynching Spak over Gamma. The last would have looked bad had Spak been scum, but as both flipped non-scum, I actually think this looks quite good. I said this before, but I really don't see point 1) coming from moody's buddy. I'd be interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this particular point, particularly if they are currently reading FrozenFlame as scum. These things combined with my suspicion of a single scum team means that FrozenFlame isn't on moody's team, and is therefore presumably Town. I definitely agree though that he needs to put more effort in.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:32 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:EGW - He's no chessmaster
Where does this come from?

He's not a manipulative player. He's not the type to bus Moody in an attempt to manipulate town.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:35 pm UTC

I understood what you meant, I asked where you got that conclusion from?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:36 pm UTC

Hi FrozenFlame! Got any plans to join us?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:57 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Conclusion: There are four things that stood out to me about FrozenFlame on my latest re-read of him. 1) Him highlighting the scum-skim by moody in his reads list. 2) Aside from the point in 1), a generally null read on moody, and very little interactions with him. 3) His lack of significant efforts to scum hunt. 4) His end of day confusion over what was going on with the lynch, and why we were lynching Spak over Gamma. The last would have looked bad had Spak been scum, but as both flipped non-scum, I actually think this looks quite good. I said this before, but I really don't see point 1) coming from moody's buddy. I'd be interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this particular point, particularly if they are currently reading FrozenFlame as scum. These things combined with my suspicion of a single scum team means that FrozenFlame isn't on moody's team, and is therefore presumably Town. I definitely agree though that he needs to put more effort in.


@jimbob, why do you think that Frozen's "scumskim" comment couldn't come from a buddy? This doesn't seem like a particularly strong point against moody, honestly; this could literally have just been a typo. I bussed you much harder than this in Dark Tower on D1. See, for example here
and here.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:12 pm UTC

If it was a bus, it felt completely unprompted, therefore having the risk of attracting attention to moody without reason. If I recall correctly (phone posting, not checking), there was little pressure on moody at the time, which I think, but could be wrong, didn't apply to me in Dark Tower where I think I was under a lot of early pressure (please feel free to correct me on my timeline of those events though). Which bit did you mean could have been a typo?

It's this combined with his end of Day 2 reactions though, not the point alone, that give me a town read of FrozenFlame, although I admit that there's a lot of scumminess everywhere else.

@FrozenFlame, I forgot to ask you this above, and you might have answered this before, but why did you have really bad vibes regarding the moody wagon D1?
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:38 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Hi FrozenFlame! Got any plans to join us?


Sure do, though don't expect anything mindblowing. I've had a shit past week and a half, pretty sure I'm depressed. I'm no quitter though so I'm trying to catch up, just got done with a surface read of today's content. Won't be able to respond to everything right now but I'll try to get to more of it later tonight

First I want to say that it's absolutely fucking disgusting that I'm getting called the "active lurker" or the "lazy" slot when any fucking objective read of this goddamn thread would show that I've done far more to contribute to this game than H_A/Yolinda, Madge, and mpolo. Arguably RR but that's a closer case IMO. H_A's slot has literally done NOTHING since like the first 5 pages of this game at best. Madge has been doing nothing but derping around all game like a little annoyance basically asking us whether or not we're down to vote the slot to activate its ability and/or whether or not we think it's best to have the slot go stump. Pretty much all of the slot's content revolves around its fucking claim. And y'all have the gall to say my posts are devoid of content when I've consistently provided lists of plays/nonplays both day phases when asked. Mpolo claimed early and has basically just been riding that shit too and just chimes in when he feels like it.

I'm not saying Ive been some scum hunting superstar this game but I feel like I'm being subjected to some grimy ass double standard. Pisses me off tbh

As far as where I stand on each slot:

Non-plays:

Sabrar
EGW
Plytho
LaserGuy
Bessie
Jimbob

On the fence:

Zyth
RR

Can go:

Madge
Mpolo
Yolinda
Boomfrog

I've been pretty hot and cold on both jimbob & boomfrog all game but jimbob stuck out his neck for me in a way I doubt any scum would ever do so that pushed him into non plays. Bessie is easily my weakest non-play read and frankly I should probably have her in On the fence but I have a gut town lean on her. Laserguy is only in non-plays because he's been super active and it will be very easy to read his slot as the game moves forward even though I think he's being insanely myopic about my play and dense for not realizing how similar my behavioral disposition my game is this game as compared to Dark Tower.

If Zyth and Sabrar are scum together then literally this is some of the highest level SvS play I've ever seen. Highly doubt they're both scum but leaning that this pair is likely TvS but need to re-read some to work that out. Between the two Zyth comes off far scummier than Sabrar IMO.

Boomfrog's posts have for the most part not felt right to me but he has moments that I know have town pinged me. I need to take a harder look at the slot though the make sure that the bad pings outweigh the good ones.

Going to try to take a nice look at EoD for D1 and D2 to suss out some reads from the end of day pressure situations. Always my favorite content to read.

A few posts that stuck out to me:

Sabrar wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Explain why a strong town read on gamma is scummy.
Really? It's not self-evident? Ok, let's break it down.
- Consensus finds Gamma scummy and is right about it.
- Mafia knows that Gamma is not one of them so from their pov he is likely Town.
- Gamma is very likely going to get lynched.
- Therefore Mafia can earn townie-credit by uselessly defending him despite his scummy content and going after the wagon-pushers after Gamma's flip.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Explain why defending zen is scummy.
Because you're scum.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Explain what was unreasonable about voting gamma.
BoomFrog had a strong town read on Gamma. Then he does a 180 and votes him because of a single point, namely Gamma not wanting to be the hammerer on Judgement which I can totally relate to.
This may be one of the towniest posts I've read this game

#HBC | Zyth wrote:
Sabrar wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Explain why a strong town read on gamma is scummy.
Really? It's not self-evident? Ok, let's break it down.
- Consensus finds Gamma scummy and is right about it.
- Mafia knows that Gamma is not one of them so from their pov he is likely Town.
- Gamma is very likely going to get lynched.
- Therefore Mafia can earn townie-credit by uselessly defending him despite his scummy content and going after the wagon-pushers after Gamma's flip.
But why is failure to be a part of consensus scummy? I would think this is just due to the nature of Boom's thought patterns. In DT he was also outside of consensus.

It seems to me that you're not considering the other possibility: He was just wrong and was too far behind to really adjust his read.

And zyth's response is gross af. Why is failure to be part of consensus scummy? What a fucking strawman bro. Obviously, in a vacuum, simply not having reads that align with the group consensus isn't scummy. But that's not what sabrar is saying. He's saying in the context that everyone was finding Gamma scummy, which they were right about but didn't KNOW they were right about, a scum player has motive to be the one who holds out and goes against the grain, BETTING on the fact that his knowledge that the slot being pushed isn't scum aligned and thus is likely to be town will payoff for him as town points when everyone else looks bad for shoving a mislynch down everyone's throat. And even if this isn't what Sabrar is trying to say, trying to pressure flip his analysis by asking the question "how is not following consensus scummy" is such a deflection from the point being made that it feels super shady. Basically it's not JUST that he wasn't part of consensus re: gamma. The fact that you try to reduce the argument to that is sketchy.

LaserGuy wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Conclusion: There are four things that stood out to me about FrozenFlame on my latest re-read of him. 1) Him highlighting the scum-skim by moody in his reads list. 2) Aside from the point in 1), a generally null read on moody, and very little interactions with him. 3) His lack of significant efforts to scum hunt. 4) His end of day confusion over what was going on with the lynch, and why we were lynching Spak over Gamma. The last would have looked bad had Spak been scum, but as both flipped non-scum, I actually think this looks quite good. I said this before, but I really don't see point 1) coming from moody's buddy. I'd be interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this particular point, particularly if they are currently reading FrozenFlame as scum. These things combined with my suspicion of a single scum team means that FrozenFlame isn't on moody's team, and is therefore presumably Town. I definitely agree though that he needs to put more effort in.


@jimbob, why do you think that Frozen's "scumskim" comment couldn't come from a buddy? This doesn't seem like a particularly strong point against moody, honestly; this could literally have just been a typo. I bussed you much harder than this in Dark Tower on D1. See, for example here
and here.


Jimbob sticking his neck out for me here is pretty damn townie IMO. If he's scum I'm an easy fucking mislynch since everyone wants my nuts strung up for being lazy despite 3-4 other slots being just as culpable if not moreso.

@ LaserGuy: You think me calling moody on what I thought was a scumslip was a fucking TYPO? You have some next level blinders on bro. If you're town I really suggest to pump the breaks on this obsession you have with my slot because you're starting to look desperate with arguments like that

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby FrozenFlame » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:41 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@FrozenFlame, I forgot to ask you this above, and you might have answered this before, but why did you have really bad vibes regarding the moody wagon D1?


I know you have other questions for too and I'll try to get to them tonight but re: my bad vibes on the moody wagon, I was just spooked at how quickly it started building momentum near deadline. Obviously there's always the possibility that that is a result of scum people pulling the trigger and deciding to bus before it's too obvious but at the time it just felt like everyone was jumping on moody because people were really saying it was the only viable wagon and were using it as a cheap excuse to lazily jump on for an easy mislynch free of consequences.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:51 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:As for your comments on my walls of text, you're being ridiculous and also either aren't reading or are forgetting my posts. Take a look back at any of my D2 read posts. You will see that every one of them has a concluding paragraph, marked "Conclusion" which is the summary of what I've said in the previous paragraph(s), if people didn't want to read the full wall (which is basically my stream of consciousness as I read through them post-by-post).
You are well aware that your walls are making you hard to read, but you didn't try to change up your style to fit the game.
JimBob wrote:I just looked at that post in all it's wallness, and I apologise for how ridiculously long it got. Sadly, I fully expect to have equally ridiculous posts for some of our other active players in the next day or two.
For all the hard work you are putting into your reads you are not trying to convince anyone. I guess you don't have to since despite all the effort you put in your conclusions are completely identical to the status quo.

Summary - although there are definitely some weird, scummy points in BoomFrog's content, and I feel like I could manufacture a case for him being scum if I had to, I don't think he is. He certainly isn't a scum buddy with moody - his interactions around the lynch were way too pro-moody lynch for that to make sense. There is a small chance that he is on a second scum team, but I don't feel it. He's likely town, although if I get a chance, I might go back over the points that a few players have made against him, if I can find them.

Some bits of FrozenFlame's content are pretty good, others not so great. I'm getting a general feel similar to BoomFrog here - he's not likely moody's scum buddy, but may be on a second scum team, based on his low effort in scum hunting in the latter portion of D1. Assuming only one scum team, he's not on it, in my opinion.

Then an hour later:
Town: EGW, Spak, Sabrar(?), Peaceful Whale, bessie, LaserGuy, mpolo, Madge, plytho
Somewhere in the middle - need to re-read latest content: Red Ryu
Lurkers sliding towards scum: heuristically_alone, Znirk
Scum, if second team present, otherwise town: FrozenFlame, maybe BoomFrog
Scum: Gamma Emerald, Zyth
Indy: Amrock

I'm pretty confident with most of my town reads (Madge, mpolo, LaserGuy, plytho, bessie, Spak, Peaceful Whale, but less so EGW and Sabrar pending re-reads), which by PoE means most of the rest must be scum, for balance to look right. That leaves GE, Zyth, FF, BF, RR, HA, Znirk to make up the numbers. Numbers balance would usually mean about somewhere around 6 or 7 scum, I reckon, of whom we've already killed one. As such, I'm basically happy with lynching any of this group, probably more so from the lower half of my above table though.
That means you'd prefer to lynch me or FF over h_a, Znirk, or Red even though you just said we were both likely town an hour before?

You then analyze Gamma, Znirk, Spak, Madge, Mpolo, Bessie, PW, Red, LaserGuy... wow all of them. Every single analysis you've done since the start of D2 has ended with the exact same conclusion you started with in your reads list at the beginning. Did you feel this was a fruitful way to spend your time? You've done nothing but spin your wheels since the start of D2. You saw your scum buddies weren't on the chopping block and you saw no reason to rock the boat. Every single other player changed their opinions over the course of D2 but you are rock solid middle of the road, lets just cruise on down to Indy lynch town.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:57 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:I understood what you meant, I asked where you got that conclusion from?

You can tell because of the way it is.

Sorry, I mean, he's pretty transparent about his current thoughts at every moment. He's rattled a lot of cages, but he hasn't really manipulated the mood of town in any way that I can see. If he's trying to be manipulative he's really bad at it... or amazing at it. :roll:
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:04 pm UTC

plytho wrote:He also did the one or both of LaserGuy or plytho must be scum without proper reasoning except that we ‘both go for all the wrong people for all the wrong reasons’. There’s no good reason to group us.

You were both acting scummy. However, laser was very happy to lynch you. Assuming one scum team that means you're probably not both scum. Hence grouped. If he had been reluctant to lynch you I'd have had you as both likely scum.

plytho wrote:This is also kind of weird.
BoomFrog wrote:I don't mean an actual vote I mean people putting him in their low 4. Moody's mood was that on someone whose teammates have given up on him. The real place to analyze is the low 4 prevotes.
I disagree that the real place to analyze is the top 4’s. Sure, some buddies will have put moody in their top 4. But that’s no reason for moody to give up when there’s two equally viable counter candidates.
I will show you young padawan. But probably not D3, maybe D4. Not enough RL time for a good vote analysis and it'll be easier with more flips. Besides I'm pretty confident I've caught scum today already.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:09 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:UUpdated group of possible scum candidates: {Red Ryu, Zyth, FrozenFlame, BoomFrog, yolinda}.

Btw, I see that the new information from the several flips and 15 pages of content has completely not changed your mind about anything. This is the same group as before minus those who died.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:12 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Woof.

Woof?
BoomFrog wrote:One important question for you: If the wagon on Spack and Gamma had fallen apart yesterday who do you think would have been lynched?
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:19 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Woof.

Woof?
BoomFrog wrote:One important question for you: If the wagon on Spack and Gamma had fallen apart yesterday who do you think would have been lynched?
I don't think anyone would have been lynched. It was too late in the day with not enough people. I was genuinely about to consider no lynch before Spak made that fake hammer post.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:25 am UTC

Sabrar wrt Narrative and Madge:
Spoiler:
Sabrar wrote:@Zen:
The narrative thing is simply a way of going about the game.
My issue with the above is that it is backwards. You start with "X is scum" and explain every action why it fits the narrative. I start from "X's action here is scummy" and if enough evidence exists conclude that "X is scum". To me your way of doing it feels not like actual scum-hunting because it's possible to make a similar case on everyone if you start with the assumption that they're scum.
That said if that's normal style then I'll keep that in mind when reevaluating you.
You're still missing the point, I think. I'm not making those assumptions. You're looking my pushes (scum hunts) with a microscope and failing to step back and see how these come together to form cohesive read on the game as whole. I think it can be seen from my more stream of consciousy posts that, when it comes down to it, I've been considering multiple angles. Regarding the underline: If that were true, I'd never have any town reads. (e.g Boom, EGW, you, Frozen, Maven, PW, plytho at certain points). Come to think of it, I town read PW from this method within his first few posts.

Sabrar wrote:Accidentally deleted this part.
#HBC | Zyth wrote:I'm really confused here. What is it that you think I'm misrepresenting? In the post you quoted, isn't Madge asking to be lynched instead of her hammering?
My understanding of that post is the opposite, Madge specifically does not want to be lynched because it prevents us from lynching actual scum.
I reread her post again today and you're right. Misunderstandings like this could quickly be cleared up if you explained them to me rather than assume I'm being mischievous. I asked you about it for the this very reason. My reading comprehension is ****.


Sabrar (& Frozen) wrt Sabrar's Boom read post:
Spoiler:
But why is failure to be a part of consensus scummy?
It's not scummy in itself, it's scummy-looking when consensus is proven to be right.

It seems to me that you're not considering the other possibility: He was just wrong and was too far behind to really adjust his read.
That is not the impression I got but I'll take another look.

Frozen wrote:And zyth's response is gross af. Why is failure to be part of consensus scummy? What a fucking strawman bro. Obviously, in a vacuum, simply not having reads that align with the group consensus isn't scummy. But that's not what sabrar is saying. He's saying in the context that everyone was finding Gamma scummy, which they were right about but didn't KNOW they were right about, a scum player has motive to be the one who holds out and goes against the grain, BETTING on the fact that his knowledge that the slot being pushed isn't scum aligned and thus is likely to be town will payoff for him as town points when everyone else looks bad for shoving a mislynch down everyone's throat. And even if this isn't what Sabrar is trying to say, trying to pressure flip his analysis by asking the question "how is not following consensus scummy" is such a deflection from the point being made that it feels super shady. Basically it's not JUST that he wasn't part of consensus re: gamma. The fact that you try to reduce the argument to that is sketchy.
This is just wrong. You're assigning motive with no evidence for it. It would make sense for you to think this if Boom was making plays to lynch those who mislynched Gamma. Or if it seemed that Boom wasn't actually against lynching Gamma. He only ever switched to Gamma when it was a few hours before deadline and I told him about Gamma not willing to be hammerer (and that Spak was). And it's not like he was just calling Gamma town for the heck of it. He showed progression in his view:

Boom's initial view on Gamma.
Boom reconsidering Gamma after my D1 reads post.
Boom committing to a change in view on Gamma.

I think the last link shows that he wasn't just pulling his Gamma read out of a hat. Seeing that Gamma was indy and not moody's buddy, he was quite right about this point.

There's actually Evidence toward the idea that a mislynch-payoff was Laser's motive for his Gamma town read, but for some reason you guys are aren't assigning this motive to him. Weird. Literally Laser's only reason for not wanting to lynch Gamma was because of the people pushing him. Frozen, I seriously ask that you take another look at Laser. I would think that we'd be on the same page here.


You can relate to not willing to be the hammerer? If you were being scum read by most of the cast and it was very likely that you were going to remain a focal point, you would not have agreed to be the hammerer?
Yes. Probably not. See why here (first paragraph in spoiler). You can take into account that I was scum in that game but that doesn't make it any less true.
C'mon man, did you really just give me a scum game to make your point.

The lynch was between Spak and Gamma at that point. Spak was voting judgement and Gamma would not, so it was only logical for Boom to vote Gamma. Do you think that Boom should have stayed on Spak in this scenario?
No, however his jump to Gamma was too quick, he didn't even try to consider any alternative explanation which contradicts his strong town read.
It wasn't quick. It was rushed. It was the end of the day and he was trying to catch up. This is indicated by the tone of his posts.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:50 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:I don't think anyone would have been lynched. It was too late in the day with not enough people. I was genuinely about to consider no lynch before Spak made that fake hammer post.

My bad, I miscommunicated here. I mean around the time that you doubted your Spak read. Did you just go for Gamma? Why not go for a third candidate? Or was it already too late?

Also, the miss-hammer read as fake to you? Why? That's what made me want to go for no lynch.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:11 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:I don't think anyone would have been lynched. It was too late in the day with not enough people. I was genuinely about to consider no lynch before Spak made that fake hammer post.

My bad, I miscommunicated here. I mean around the time that you doubted your Spak read. Did you just go for Gamma? Why not go for a third candidate? Or was it already too late?

Also, the miss-hammer read as fake to you? Why? That's what made me want to go for no lynch.

P.P.S. Join me on JimBob?

It was too late, but I couldn't see Gamma's role being town aligned so I was fine with that. I personally wanted to go for Laser, but I doubt that could've gained enough momentum. I felt that anyone that EGW and Sabrar were voting with together was going to be the play. And EGW was pretty adamant about me + whoever I was associated with.

Vote: jimbobmacdoodle

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:09 am UTC

Here, almost done. Sabrar, are you working on your reads list?


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