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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:25 am UTC

I'll be working on them today. I like to make my reads closer to day-end but the lynch-mechanic screws that over.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D2 | 9/25

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:38 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
Evil George Washington wrote:LaserGuy is scum. D2 he chainsaw attacks me for pushing Boomfrog
You have BoomFrog as your 3rd most townie here and I can only find you mentioning him here before LaserGuy goes for you here (pedit: also here and here but irrelevant). That's not pushing him and is very far from enough to justify a chainsaw. Show me what I missed.


Here's what you missed:

LaserGuy wrote:I'm not loving EGW pushing pretty much only two of my strongest townreads andespecially especially his suggestion of stumping Madge. Still reading town but I'm more ambivalent about him.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:58 am UTC

Have to check context later, but that was before your list I linked above. Why would you push your towniest reads? Or vice versa why would you put someone as strong town if you're pushing them? Or is LaserGuy's choice of words inaccurate there?

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:59 am UTC

plytho wrote:@EGW: looking at LaserGuy’s Zen read I noticed that we’re both paranoid as it comes to Zen. Reading his moves on Spak as a bus sounds kind of paranoid to me :)


Admittedly I am paranoid of him because he's burned me as mafia. Again, I refer to the PYP mafia game he linked. I read him as town there but he did nothing to defend my mislynch in that game. Walmart Mafia was the first time I've seen him go with the 'wait and see' approach and sadly I pushed for his mislynch there. I wasn't a fan of his D1 late play and D2 play, but I like his D3 play. I can understand you being paranoid of him too. I'll answer your question shortly on your POE.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:06 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:Have to check context later, but that was before your list I linked above. Why would you push your towniest reads? Or vice versa why would you put someone as strong town if you're pushing them? Or is LaserGuy's choice of words inaccurate there?


Because I re-evaluated. I'm going back and forth on Boom. I didn't like Boomfrog's EOD.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:09 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:EGW, you say that Madge is a liability since D1, and I don't disagree (she's not been helpful at all), but why do you think that neutering any chance she has of being useful later in the game (as has been indicated by multiple people as being likely) is the best plan? Do you believe that she won't get any better as the game progresses?


@EGW: Also, why do you feel so strongly about stumping Madge, but are willing to give a pass to FrozenFlame for what amounts to the same reason?


1. I doubt her Tree Stump claim.
2. I have meta with Frozen, so waiting to see his play develop is natural for me.

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LaserGuy
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:11 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:2. I have meta with Frozen, so waiting to see his play develop is natural for me.


Are we far enough into the game for you to read him yet?

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:12 am UTC

Regarding the POE townies, I think you need to dig deeper. I think you are simplifying it again, same as you did with my Boom argument. It's why you are having such trouble finding scum. Talk to me more after my reads.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:12 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Evil George Washington wrote:2. I have meta with Frozen, so waiting to see his play develop is natural for me.


Are we far enough into the game for you to read him yet?


Yes we are.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:13 am UTC

Game Winning Reads:

Plytho asks the right questions, and always seems to clarify when someone (like myself) may be misunderstanding something. His pushes aren't strong, until he brings out his case on Zen. FrozenFlame is correct that he pulls no punches, and he has progression on Zen. I disliked his argument towards me on Boom, but otherwise, I find no scum intent from Plytho. I ISO'd him, and noted that Peace Whale said he wasn't playing like his last scum game. He asks good questions to LaserGuy about him being inconstint with me and Plytho along Moody's Flip. I think he's town. I can understand why he may feel like he can't actually find anything suspicious.

Zen D1, had a good opening. The Moody flip doesn't reflect on him well, especially considering he is not the type to bus. D2 he mostly was on the defense, and I didn't like his interactions with me. Yet D3, I like him and his play and it's improving. I can understand why he may have felt frustrated with me since most of his responses, I have missed since I had to catch up after work, and I work almost every day. Slight town.

People seem to have a problem with Zen's playstyle, and I can understand why. I tend to be more open, helping others understand my mindset. Zen tends to be more anti-town, yet he gets to the right conclusion in this manner. People are being paranoid due to what Maven said, but do consider that he also leads town when town as well. In my last game with him, he was mislynched, and before that, did a gambit of being cop when he wasn't cop, as VT. (Luckicly, he was NK'd) I have hydra'd with him, more than Maven has. So I should have more of an understanding of him then Mave. (Yet, Soup can also say the same, as he has Hydrad with Zen many a time)

Mafia Universe Hydra Game (EGW + ZEN)
Mafia Sleep Over Finale

Yolinda is Soup from Smash Boards. I'm null on him, but I liked HA's questioning to Moody early D1. That's it though. I want to see him caught up so I can read him better.

Jimbob is really into analyzing. I find this to be pro-town, very detailed. Earlier on he was busy and felt like he was phoning it in but as he had more time he shows good content, believable too. I think he's asking solid questions too. I am finding some of his questions weird, like the Madge questions. Not an avenue I want to take today, he was a counter wagon to Moody. Slight town.

I note that Ryu in some instances has skimmed and may have skimmed my own posts. Since I work and am posting one liners it may be harder for him to have a full grasp of what I'm doing. I did like his questions to me, and at first felt he was trying to misrepresent me. Now after I'm feeling better about Zen, I think I can understand his perspective. In the example Zen gave when Dabuz felt defeated to me pushing him, Ryu was shutting my push down on him. (Usually, people always push Dabuz when they are scum and he is town, but funnily enough I am the one defending him when he is town, plus I was the one who convinced Zen in our hydra to push scum!Dabuz) So, I find Ryu likely townie, who is just busy, as usual. I do find that he has a similar mindset to me with Boom. I liked his points on Gamma. Slight town. I like his vote on Madge, and good question to Bessie.

Zen notes that Laser may be playing differently then he was in DT, where he was scum. I think he's had some issues with my play, and may be conf biasing. Reluctantly, I feel he may be null town. I'm the top town read in town, and he's the only one pushing for me, albeit on the smallest of things. Originally I felt he was chainsawing me due to my read on Boomfrog, but considering that Zen feels Boom may still be town, I might be wrong and do agree with Sabrar that he's not playing on survival. I can understand why he may have issues with me playing the waiting game with Frozen, but for me it usually works. It's how we took care of him [FrozenFlame] in Mafia Sleep Over Finale (I link that below).

Boomfrog - I keep going back and forth with Boom. I think my real problem with him is his lazyness. I jumped to conclusions, though and he corrected me. His point on keeping his cards close to his chest is fair. I'm null-town at the moment, trying to re-evaluate him. I'd like to see him post a reads list when he can. I can understand if he was just very busy D2, I like his reads much more D3 then D2. (Although I disagree with them)

MPOLO - I find he is null (even after a re-read). This whole game he isn't sticking out his neck, and Zen points out he is playing differently then when he was INDY. What I noticed was him jumping to answer Zen's question to Sabrar of Madge, while ignoring Jim's question and just not staying inside the thread. He's pretty low on my list but I don't find any reason to lynch him today.

Bessie had a delay with her 'interesting' points on Sabrar and Zen. It seems she found the one referring to Zen, which is fair. What concerns me is that she states she confused Sabrar for Plytho, which I don't believe. She finds Madge suspcious but she doesn't support Madge tree stumping. I find this inconsistent. I don't think it's pro-town that she never mentioned the 'interesting' things D1, while having Zen and Sabrar as town leans without explaining why. I don't think PW was masoned with her, I think he used his cop on her and assumed she was likely town from it. (Otherwise, he would have copped someone else if he was already masoned with her, copping her while being masoned with her makes no sense) I think her claim and answer to Zen's role related question will help us POE, but I am concerned as to why she would rather keep this to herself. I could be wrong due to a role related reason, but I still think she is suspicious and feel she needs to clarify this so that we move over this. I get the feeling she is putting up the appearance of having n1 pings and 'interesting' things that catch her attention but she doesn't have the motivation to actually pursue any of those avenues. I think LaserGuy had good reasoning on her wrt her Jim vote, this was around the time I was asking her to interact with me, yet she instead ignores me and puts out that vote, very weird. Probably Scum. I think it's possible Peaceful Whale was killed first to confirm Bessie as town when she isn't. I see no reason for scum to keep her alive if they feel it's obvious that she'd be cleared through role related reasons. There's also the fact that Zen notes her play is much different then her DT play. I also feel she is using the 'I'm not a good scumhunter' excuse a bit too much, when I feel she's much better then she thinks. There's also the fact that Sabrar noted she wasn't focusing on setup spec as she usually did.

Sabrar - Scum. The point I thought about Megaman, I thought about my Moody theory and remembered RVS. Sabrar had given a numbers list, and then Moody copied it, while being Mafia Know it all. Notice that the person who got Sabrar to vote initially, was me. 1 2

He didn't really say anything about it, he just voted. He did question him early on Page 3, and they were good questions. His vote placement was what concerned me. So, note that he didn't initiate this on his own, yet when pushed on it, he reacted. Note that Megaman absorbed Moody's power, but has yet to claim. I believe he's megaman and he needed to make sure he absorbed Moody's power, so he can learn more about the setup as time goes on. Put that alongside the fact he's sidelining according to other's recollection of him, and Moody is usually lynched regardless, I could understand why he'd want to take initiative to distance him. Also consider the fact he states that Zen's role is not adding up here: 3 felt like he was trying to misrepresent Zen here with a trivial fact, when Zen explains it changes nothing. He isn't really sorting Bessie but instead giving her an out here: 4, which I don't think is pro-town.

Here is the clincher: Madge mentions Sabrar should have known that Glados also killed the Hammer. I theorize this is due to having Mafia Know it all in her scum QT, and that's where she saw more info about his role there and she misremembered it as public knowledge. This must be why she expected Sabrar to know, and confused that information with the opening post, big scum slip. Now I see this, and I react promptly:

EGW question

Yet Sabrar, as soon as I ask, also posts:

Sabrar out

Giving her an out. Instead of asking her where she found this information, he gives her a possible answer. This is very very suspicious. It's understandable from a scum point of view, he doesn't want her to make a big mistake. This also makes me think it's likely that Madge isn't closed as scum, but also open and flowy. It's just easy to slip up as scum when you go with the flow and give in to your desire to not scum hunt.

Madge - I think she's actually scum. She isn't posting her D3 analysis, she wants to be lynched instead of tree stumped, when she proposed it D1. She was actively posting "I will only hammer, if threatened by no lynch." Yet, D2, she was fine with giving her vote to the Gamma wagon. So, it shows that she could have gone earlier. She created this whole fabrication to stay off of Moody if she could help it, and now she prefers to be lynched instead of Tree Stumped today. I think she is lying about that. I think she's scum with Sabrar, due to her scum slip of Glados being killed by the hammerer as well. It makes more sense that she'd get that information from The Mafia Know it all, then her own PM. Originally I thought she may have been indy due to her refusal to help town over and over, but her scum slip and contradiction with wanting to hammer D1 but not ever again makes me scum read her.


Spoiler:
FrozenFlame wrote:
Evil George Washington wrote:
Sabrar wrote:
Peaceful Whale wrote:Now this is scummy.


This is scum. Vote: Sabrar

This is some uncharacteristic early aggression from you Ran. I'm gonna play the you here and ask you to elaborate on this
?



This reads as scum who's concerned that (I) vote his scum mate with such confidence in early game.


Frozen Flame has been pretty reserved the whole game, and hard for me to read. As I say, he usually gives townie vibes when town, but he gives none here. His first reaction to my Sabrar vote was odd, as he has played with me before where I have done similar things. His only big push was Gamma and he was Indy, and I don't really get any other big push from him now. Slight scum. His reasoning for why Zen's response to Sabrar is a stretch, when it's simple to consider that simply having a town read on Gamma who was indy isn't suspicious, it's the reasoning and intent that would be, if we could find it. Zen's argument is fair. It's possible that Boom could have been wrong, even I was considering he may have been a liability at that point. Gamma does get mislynched as town too for the similar reasons.

Town
EGW
Plytho
Jim
Ryu
Zen
Boom
LaserGuy
Yolinda
Bessie
FrozenFlame
Madge
Sabrar
Scum

Unvote; Vote: Sabrar

[Sabrar > Madge > FrozenFlame > Bessie]

I am most confident in Sabrar and Madge flipping scum. This is the path we must venture today, or we shall lose twenty dollars and my self respect. Reconsider your reads as hard as possible at this avenue. Zen, I want you to follow me on Sabrar and Madge. I also want your insight on the rest of my reads, and see how it reflects with yours. Plytho, I implore you to reconsider Sabrar based on my reasoning. Does he seem like regular Sabrar to you? Think about that. Ask yourself why Madge is playing like she is. You yourself stated Madge would usually have a Vote Analysis by now, yet she refuses to help. Town, I beseach you to look into these suspects. Since there are 4 scum, they can vote as a bloc and simply ask for 3 votes for a lynch today. I want us to bloc up.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:14 am UTC

MPOLO should go above Yolinda, below Laser.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:17 am UTC

Mod request prod on Yolinda

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:22 am UTC

You're so right and wrong about me at the same time it would be funny in any other case.

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#HBC | Zyth
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:24 am UTC

Holy shite, Yolinda is SOUP?! SOUP TALK TO US BABE

@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA
@YOLINDA

(Still reading the rest of your post, Ran)

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:25 am UTC

Also upon Sabrar flipping scum, there would be a connection from him towards Frozen as well. I remember him stating he didn't like him using gut reads, iicr. I feel that as his mate, he didn't want Frozen using gut reads as it may have gotten him flack.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:27 am UTC

Lol what the fuck. I never typed up 'twenty dollars and self respect.' I typed the game.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:32 am UTC

@EGW: so you think that Madge and myself are both moody's scumbuddies, right? Because I can prove it otherwise.

PS: the 20 dollars thing is a silly automatic filter on the forum, triggered by the exact phrase of lose plus the plus game.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:33 am UTC

Yes I do.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:34 am UTC

This is basically you pushing me extremely hard to claim. I don't like that.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:35 am UTC

You don't have to claim. I want you lynched.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:35 am UTC

Did I tell you that you have pre-conceived notions that prevent you from seeing clearly?

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:36 am UTC

I have plenty of progression with you and Madge.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:38 am UTC

Not about that.

BTW why did you make yourself invisible?

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:40 am UTC

I was re-reading. I didn't want to be interrupted.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:44 am UTC

Show me a single instance where I led the lynch on my team-mate D1. Never happens. As Zen said it's completely stupid.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:44 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:Not about that.


These are all things that I noticed as the game grew. Yet what sparked my scum read on you was Megaman not claiming with the setup information like we'd need it. I knew what to look for. Especially your vote on Moody.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:44 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:Show me a single instance where I led the lynch on my team-mate D1. Never happens. As Zen said it's completely stupid.


I asked you to vote with me.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:46 am UTC

You're ignoring everything that doesn't fit into your theory. Why did I switch the wagon back to moody after jimbob and Gamma were both a possibility?

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:47 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:I asked you to vote with me.

WTF. That's not an answer and you know it.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:48 am UTC

Will continue in an hour or so.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:48 am UTC

Because you already had Moody as your top scumread. It wouldn't make sense for you to not ask for me come back to him.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:50 am UTC

You weren't pushing for him, but when I ask you to jump on without saying anything. It was a weird post. For your vote to line up with your suspicion voiced in thread, you had to join me.

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LaserGuy
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:54 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:If it was a bus, it felt completely unprompted, therefore having the risk of attracting attention to moody without reason. If I recall correctly (phone posting, not checking), there was little pressure on moody at the time, which I think, but could be wrong, didn't apply to me in Dark Tower where I think I was under a lot of early pressure (please feel free to correct me on my timeline of those events though). Which bit did you mean could have been a typo?


In Dark Tower, I put pressure on you pretty much right out of the gate, along with SDK (after you both put pressure on me!). And I think SDK was bussing me as well?

Yes, he was attracting attention to moody unprompted, but his point was "moody forgot/misread/misinterpreted who was saying what". Not exactly a strong scumtell. Not strong enough for FrozenFlame to actually move his vote or anything. And it's possible it was nothing at all. I'm struggling to see how you could arrive at the conclusion that there's no way that this could be picked up by a scumbuddy.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:It's this combined with his end of Day 2 reactions though, not the point alone, that give me a town read of FrozenFlame, although I admit that there's a lot of scumminess everywhere else.


What specifically did you find townie about his end of day reactions?


Ninja by EGW... Wow, will need to take a closer look at that. Just quickly:
@EGW: How long have you been considering this? Is this why you have been so insistent on Sabrar voting with you as much as possible?

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:59 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:You weren't pushing for him, but when I ask you to jump on without saying anything. It was a weird post. For your vote to line up with your suspicion voiced in thread, you had to join me.

Lies. September 13 noon UTC. Not what happened at all.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:00 am UTC

I was pretty paranoid about two teams since D1. It's why I had some nulls in my reads list that you had a problem with. I had concerns on Sabrar N1, but reconsidered, putting him as mostly likely town due to him helping me back on it. Yet I've noticed more concerns with him as the game grew, and I have have been asking him to post reads constantly, because I wanted to make sure he posted content. What really pinged me was him giving Madge an out. I didn't notice the Bessie out until re-reading. Others mentioning he was sidelining and not his usual self is also what made me consider he may be scum.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:06 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Sabrar let's vote together. Where do you want to vote?


Sabrar wrote:I'm in the wrong timezone for the bazillionth time.

Sorry to hear that SirGabriel, hope you'll be back for another game.

Actually interested if his replacement will come up with something new to save themselves so I'd like to not lynch him today. Plus as already been mentioned the wagon can't be really analyzed.

Vote: moody

If we're going for a lurker lynch we need to hit Dark Horse unless mod-action is announced. Ryu is also a good choice.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:12 am UTC

Please acknowledge what I wrote below. There was never any point in this game where I wasn't prepared to vote moody and it's not because of you however much you'd like to pretend.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:21 am UTC

What you wrote below is what makes it weird. You don't really respond to me, you just vote Moody. It's like you were doing something you know you should have done much earlier (were too lax) and when I asked you vote, you corrected that mistake.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:25 am UTC

Why are you only asking about the Moody flip and not my other points?

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:26 am UTC

That's not what I'm referring to. September 13 noon UTC. If you're lazy I'll copy it when I get to work.


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