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BoomFrog
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:20 pm UTC

@Frozenflame
I don't want to lurker lynch you, I want you to come out of your cold, vitriolic, hateful shell and be town, or try to be town and fail so we lynch you. Can you do one of those please. Weigh in on a controversial point before it's resolved. EGW vs Sabrar, what do you think? My case on JimBob, what do you think?
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bessie
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby bessie » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:28 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
Sabrar wrote:I agree with this but there was like an hour before deadline. He didn't have to rush.

I was not sure the exact hour of deadline, I only knew we were very close. I belive I was squeezing in posts while my daughter was getting ready for bed. Later interactions with Spak were while I was supposed to be doing dishes.
I was on line at end of day. One of the reasons for finalizing the lynch was that Gamma was on line and could still screw up the lynch, or he could unvote judgement. Leaving for work I can't check who would have been judgement but I think it was Spak.

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#HBC | Zyth
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:33 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:I presume you'll go more into this when not on mobile? I'd like to know what parts of George's idea convinced you and what the other reasons were.
Read back from here to here. If you're still unclear about my reasons I will repeat them in a couple of hours (leaving work right now).
I'm actually asking because I read those posts and you never actually said why you were switching. You did make one post (#1836) that speculated over my change of view, but the post that you made right after challenged that.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:01 pm UTC

@Bessie: Your posting format makes it very difficult to coherently reply to you so I'm taking some actually on computer time to reply to things I noted but haven't gotten back to.
bessie wrote:[Boomfrog] asked me to read moody on D1, then used my read as an excuse to make a scum lean on me, then accepted my explanation for not wanting to lead a lynch on moody based on my read. I’m still not completely satisfied with the whole interaction, as I feel that someone that knows me and moody should have seen my reasons without multiple explanations, I always had a nagging suspicion that he was just testing the waters with a scum ping for a possible later attack.
Your logic was flawless but your actions helped scum (slightly). Starting with you as neutral, that was my only indicator of your alignment so that puts you as slightly scum leaning. (And I don't test the waters, I make waves.)

bessie wrote: Anyway, moody has a scummy meta, it was quite possible that he would be lynched at some point in the game (even if he was town), so it is very possible that once his lynch started to gain some momentum he was bussed by his teammates (perhaps even at his suggestion). I’ve been wondering if anyone else that knows moody’s meta would bring this up, and they haven’t, I’m a bit suspicious as to why (so FOS BoomFrog, Madge, and mpolo, maybe Sabrar I need to think about whether or not Sabrar has played with moody enough to know this) .

You're making the same point I was making to plytho. Look earlier on the wagon. I feel that by the time I'd voted Moody had given up and was likely already being bussed.

bessie wrote:
BoomFrog wrote: Plytho - SoulRead: In fridge he sincerely believed that his interaction with Bessie was what he'd do as town, but he got lynched for it. This game when he clashed with Bessie, if he was scum he would have self censored faster because he didn't want to confirm others claim that his nitpicking was scummy. But since he's town he doubled down on the nitpicking so at the end if the game he can say, "see! I do it as town too!". When it became apparent that his nitpicking was causing Bessie actual distress he tried to back off, first by waiting to ask questions, then putting them in a spoiler, then when Bessie still couldn't restrain herself from spending most of her time Answering him he declared he wouldn't talk to her. He's trying his best to not mess with her. (Bessie: at this point I have to say you are causing your own problem, plytho had not been intentionally antagonizing you).
I think your soulread is flawed. I really can’t understand your reasoning for your town soulread of plytho. He was scum in Fridge mafia, but he sincerely believed he was acting like a townie, so you don’t think he would ever act in the same way again as scum? And since he is acting in the same way he must be purposely doing so because he’s town and trying to make it part of his townie meta? And he only backed off on questioning me because he was hurting my feelings or something? Seriously? Reminder, you’re talking about a relative newbie to the game, and you think he can make a successful conscious decision not to act scummy if he is scum? There are experienced players that can’t do that.

Yes. Although he backed off because he was upsetting you AND because it was hurting your ability to scum hunt. He tried to back off, you reeled him back into it. He said "I'll wait on my questions" you said, "ask them now". And yes, I think he is self aware about what he was doing. It was the focal point of his game in fridge. In this game, when I challenged him about acting the same as in fridge he replied, "Well after this game it will be my townie meta".
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BoomFrog
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:10 pm UTC

FrozenFlame wrote:I'm not saying Ive been some scum hunting superstar this game but I feel like I'm being subjected to some grimy ass double standard. Pisses me off tbh

Re-posting with quote so you get pinged.

BoomFrog wrote:@Frozenflame
I don't want to lurker lynch you, I want you to come out of your cold, vitriolic, hateful shell and be town, or try to be town and fail so we lynch you. Can you do one of those please. Weigh in on a controversial point before it's resolved. EGW vs Sabrar, what do you think? My case on JimBob, what do you think?
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#HBC | Zyth
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:21 pm UTC

bessie, on hydras
Spoiler:
bessie wrote:Aside: Can someone explain to me the purpose of hydra? I’ve never understood why two people would play with one account. Why don’t they just both play? This discussion can wait until after the game, just wondering about it. :?

There are two main "official" reasons that players often give for hydraing: 1) One or both of the players may be busy irl and may not be able to be that active, but they still want to play the game. As a solo player, their inactivity may hinder the game, but as a hydra, the other head can keep up the activity of the slot and the inactive head can still participate as time allows. Or, if they are both somewhat inactive, the idea is that their combined input will equate to normal activity. FrozenFlame often hydras with another player (Gheb) with a similar posting frequency as he, I think for this reason. 2) To help newbies get into the game. An experienced player can hydra with a new player and act as a guide. It's like a PW-bessie Mason for the entire game.

Those are often official reasons given, but honestly it's just fun. Once you start, it's kind of hard to stop >_>. If you hydra with a player that complements your play style well, you can essential create a super-player. For example, Ran's obvtowniness every game tends to counter out my anti-towniness, so I generally have more range to pull my shenanigans as his hydra partner without sullying the slot. On the other end, my preferred play style is actually more passive and info-gathery. It's hard to do this in a fast moving game though and I'll often get left behind doing so. Hydraing with Ran takes care of this: He can take care of the live posting and interaction while I can take my time analyzing post-by-post.

It's really interesting to see the sort of super pseudo-being that two players create. Madge would make a great hydra player with someone that enjoys reading players off their content. I think you, bessie, would make a god-like hydra with someone you conflict with, such as plytho or Sabrar (seriously just think of the power of of an ultimate doggo-ava hydra). I think the result of plytho with boom/zen would also play well, because of the former's keen awareness and the intuition of the latter two.

Some areas where hydras fall short or are disadvantageous:

-When two players' style DON'T complement each other. When Ran hydras with another extremely active player, I want to shoot myself. It can also be a headache when the two heads disagree and aren't willing to reconcile. This is especially a problem if they fail to distinguish which head is posting at any given time.
-As scum. Hydraing and rolling scum has never really worked out for me. When my partner is another proactive scum-type, we tend to butt heads on how to proceed. If they aren't, then I usually just end up essentially playing the game solo. I dunno, this may just be a thing with me personally and not scum hydras in general. I've seen successful scum hydras before.
-There's a small player base. On sites where there's not an ample supply of players, hydras just decrease the chances of games filling because it further reduces the player base. This is a problem that we were having in Dgames for a while, because everyone and their mother wanted to hydra. On a site where there's only 12 or so active members, it became really difficult to fill games.

I definitely recommend trying it at some point though. If you partner with the right person, I think you'd really enjoy it. Mafia Universe does all-hydra games from time to time. They are really fun and not as chaotic as you would think. Definitely recommend going that route if you decide to give it a shot.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby mpolo » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:38 pm UTC

This thing keeps getting away from me. I theoretically had some time this morning, but other things got in the way. But let's at least try to get a reads list.

Known town: mpolo

Probable town: Sabrar, Evil George Washington, bessie

Leaning town: plytho, LaserGuy, Madge, #HBC|Zyth

Not sure why I think he's leaning scum: jimbobmacdoodle (this may be an old feeling, but at least at nightfall he was in my scummy group)

Likely scum (mostly by process of elimination): Yolinda, BoomFrog, Frozen Flame, Red Ryu

Of these, the read on Frozen Flame is strongest.
Image <-- Evil experiment

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:16 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:I'm actually asking because I read those posts and you never actually said why you were switching.
Fair enough.
- The point I researched here was objective and observable evidence. I gave it larger weight than my doubt here because it relied on knowing an unknown player's mind.
- This (link does not point to actual quote for me due to end of page, it's second from bottom) and this made me think that we would learn more from Spak's flip as Gamma might not have buddies.
- My heart overruled my brain.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:34 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:-Why did you join the jimbob wagon d1?
-Why did you ask if George wanted to switch back to Moody before you yourself switched?

Please give me a detailed walk through of your thought process if possible. Especially regarding your jim vote.
- Lynch-mechanic is completely new territory for me. With half of the players coming from xkcd and not used to it either I had no idea how and when the wagons and counter-wagons would be forming.
- Probably it was too early to tell but it seemed to me that lynching moody doesn't have the necessary support. Therefore I switched to the wagon that was most likely to succeed and was also at the bottom of my list.
- I started re-reading the thread and answering people. I also found a new connection between you and moody, plus plytho expressed similar ideas reinforcing my suspicion.
- EGW was likely Town and a forceful personality, likely able to influence a larger group. With his support moody's lynch looked reasonable once again.
- Me switching alone does not accomplish anything if he doesn't follow so it seemed easier to ask first.

#HBC | Zyth wrote:
plytho wrote:#2440

Got it. Did Sabrar have bessie as a town read when he made that post?
I made that post D2. I found bessie townie D1.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:45 pm UTC

@EGW: do you have an updated top4? I'm curious.

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LaserGuy
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:01 pm UTC

Reads:

bessie: Town. Essentially confirmed by Peaceful Whale. I had been working under this assumption previously since PW's crumbing was pretty obvious.

BoomFrog: Town. I haven't seen anything to really change my read here.

Madge: Coinflip between Town and indie. Definitely not mafia. Unprompted willingness to accept Judgment hammer suggests Town.

Zyth: Town. Discussed at length here and here.

mpolo: Town. The fact that he has been so upfront with his claim and usage of his power leads me to believe he is Town. His content is light, but I find nothing disagreeable there. Unprompted willingness to accept Judgment hammer suggests Town as well.

Sabrar: Likely Town. I have been liking a lot of Sabrar's content in D3. Activity level and engagement in the thread are much more in line with what I expect. It seems very implausible to me that he could be scumbuddies with moody, and a second scumteam is looking fairly unlikely at this point.

Yolinda/heury: Null. I speculated earlier that the lack of interest in the slot D2 suggested somewhat more likely Town. Lacking better evidence, I'd probably default to that, but Yolinda really needs to post.

EGW: Reluctantly Town. Mostly because of this this post. I have real difficulty believing that this could ever come from scum this late in the game. It's too wrong in too many different ways for me to believe that it could have been developed in collaboration with other players, and I think if scum had been trying to push {Sabrar, Madge, bessie}, then we would have seen more activity on that front much earlier than now. I think he's fairly unlikely to be scum with moody, so there's that too.

@EGW: Strongly suggest you read some of Smalltown PYP. It's an older game (2015), but is very relevant to what you are proposing.

plytho: Really on the fence on this one. There's a lot of his content that I like, and there's a lot that I dislike. If there's five scum, I'm inclined to believe he's one of them. If there's four, probably not. I kind of agree with BoomFrog here that the fact that he was so brazenly following his scum meta after we made such a big deal of it last game might imply that he's town. I've outlined some of my concerns about him here and here. I'll expect I'll have to come back to this several times later in the day.

Red Ryu: Finally got around to doing a proper reread here. I have trouble following his reasoning a lot of the time since his posts are so terse and it's obvious that he's skimming the thread so there's a lot of errors. I find overall his posting style makes it very difficult to get a good sense of what he believes or why he believes it. He has a very non-chalant attitude toward who the lynch candidate should be, pretty much willing to go with any wagon without a lot of obvious reasons for doing so.

More detailed things that I find interesting:
Spoiler:
This reads list is bizarre. He obviously isn't paying attention to the claims and wants to push SirG, and has moody as his second choice lynch candidate despite not commenting on him at all for the entire game.

Votes jimbob, but claims to have no investment in either wagon. But really, he doesn't have any commentary on either player that would justify a vote here. Much more interested in lynching Madge or SirG than either of the leading wagons. His lack of interest in either wagon looks very bad in retrospect.

Red Ryu wrote:Right...so lets discuss, I'm willing to level with you here on some level. But some of your actions on Moody do look like that meta you just listed if I am recalling this properly, you were pushing other directions until you settled on Moody yes? To the point where if I am recalling correctly you had a gut town read? Am I right on this?


This is example where I'm really not sure if this is just a result of skimming or a lazy but deliberate misrepresentation--Zyth never claimed to have had a gut townread of moody: quite the opposite, in fact.

Reads list here seems odd. I don't know what reasoning he's using to justify a FrozenFlame town read, and the null read on jimbob seems quite generous considering earlier he had written "jimbob can die for all I care".

Very interested in what people think about FrozenFlame. He is more interested in this slot than any other except maybe BoomFrog. See here, here here here

More defending Frozen and jimbob.

Very likely scum with jimbob and Frozen.

jimbob: Scum. Kind of the opposite of Red Ryu. Lots of big, detailed posts. As I noted in my original read of jimbob, he's very good at making these sort of wall-reads regardless of alignment, and I agree with BoomFrog it feels like he's posting these in the hopes that nobody will really read them. He isn't really trying to actively advance cases on any players or do much in the way of scumhunting.

Some of his posts seem less well-thought out than others:

Spoiler:
There's some weird inconsistencies in his D1 patterns. Here, he votes Red Ryu. The very next post, he has moody ahead of Red Ryu in his preferred lynches, followed by SirG and unsure about the last slot, and the post after that he's reviewing whether Red Ryu should be in the 4th slot on his "people to lynch" list, despite the fact that Red Ryu was already second in his previous list AND he's voting for him. He seems to have forgotten that he was voting/scumreading Red Ryu in this sequence.

This post, particularly on FrozenFlame, looks pretty bad. Looking at his read of Frozen, it looks to me like this should definitely be a scumread. As I've talked about before, I don't buy that this post is in any way sufficient for jimbob to be making the case that Frozen and moody couldn't be buddies.

Likewise, his read of Red Ryu here, I find baffling. It seems like he's giving Ryu credit mostly for activity and am confused by how he finds Ryu's thought processes "open" when I find Ryu's posting incredibly hard to follow. Puts Red much townier in his overall reads than his content justifies, IMHO. For example, he calls plytho "Very likely Town", but Red Ryu is significantly above him in his overall reads. Ditto with Sabrar.

Commented about this already, but this subsequent read on FrozenFlame is awful. I don't really see the argument about how the one "scumskim" from FrozenFlame couldn't have come from a buddy, or is even a particularly strong tell against moody (Red Ryu has made probably 100 of these sorts of errors). I don't really understand why he feels Frozen being confused about how the D2 lynch ended up is townie. Townread here feels extremely generous.

Very likely scum, probably with Frozen and Red Ryu.


FrozenFlame: Scum. Active lurking, no scumhunting, not even producing reads. Gets super defensive when pushed, and I don't even know what to make of the fact that he can't see why people are finding his slot scummy. In his posts in reply to me he seems to think that my problem with him is that he's only pushing lurker/inactive lynches, even though these are, from his point of view, more strategic, when my problem was that even if we were going to go after these sorts of lynches, then we still need to be actually hunting for scum during the day phase, which he hasn't contributed to.

More on intereactions:
Spoiler:
I really dislike that he and jimbob are both reading each other as townie because of the "scumskim" comment that Frozen made about moody. This is all very self-serving, and I don't at all feel that this is sufficient to justify a town read on either side. FrozenFlame apparently didn't even feel the scumskim was that strong since it wasn't enough to move his vote off of his gutread on jimbob.

I get a really general feel from moody's posts that he was always open to an RR push which makes me trust that slot a little more

This is apparently enough to give a pass to Red Ryu.

I don't really see anything townie in this slot. Most likely scum with jimbob/Red. Given the choice, I'd prefer Frozen, but I have no problem with jimbob either. My picks for today are {Frozen, jimbob, Red}. I guess as a distant fourth I might go for plytho, but really it's only those three that I'd want to push today.

Town
====
LaserGuy
bessie
BoomFrog
Madge
Zyth
mpolo
Sabrar
Yolinda/heury
EGW
plytho

Red Ryu
jimbob
Frozen
====
Scum


Vote FrozenFlame

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:25 pm UTC

bessie: Barring GF confirmed town. Currently not seeing any sign of that, though I'm very interested in her updated read-list.

BoomFrog: Zen defends him hard (like she told us she would defend a scum-buddy). However her points about him are valid and BF's explanations are also reasonable. Hmm, BoomFrog is defending Zen as well. But Zen proposes to compare BoomFrog with a scummy read. Would she use it to get a mislynch? No, that would out herself. More probably she uses the claim to 'clear' the scum-read, clearing herself and BoomFrog at the same time. But she proposes to choose the target via vote-tally. Dangerous as they can't control it and might target another scum-buddy of theirs. Ability doesn't really make sense for scum anyway (unless used expressly for town-credit). Okay, this became a read of Zen. I'm much less sure about her right now and would like to see her claiming an actual result.

Getting back to BoomFrog: I'm liking his more recent content but I think he's too confident in soulreading plytho, also he seems to find excuses for his case on LaserGuy. However both could be simply due to his ego. Slight Town.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:35 pm UTC

I'll give you ego on the plytho read, but how is my ego tied up in my LaserGuy read?
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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:35 pm UTC

EGW: most likely town but there are a few things troubling me. Want him to answer/comment these three things.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:36 pm UTC

@LaserGuy: How do you reconcile Frozen going after Jim D1?
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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:37 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:I'll give you ego on the plytho read, but how is my ego tied up in my LaserGuy read?
You're so sure about your read that you'd rather twist the narrative to fit the facts into your story than consider the possibility that your story doesn't match the facts.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:47 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:@LaserGuy: How do you reconcile Frozen going after Jim D1?


Lazy bus. jimbob wasn't under any pressure when Frozen voted for him. Probably Frozen voted for jimbob to create some distance early. His vote just sat there for awhile. Zyth the real push on jimbob here. By the time Frozen posted next, jimbob had five votes, peaking as high as six. Jumping off the wagon at that point would look pretty bad, and the only alternative was another buddy.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:48 pm UTC

#HBC | Red Ryu wrote:>wakes up to three more pages

:x

Welp gonna read where I left off.
I'd like to get you to weigh in on something controversial before it's resolved. Please skip ahead to my case on JimBob and my follow up a few posts down. After you read it please give you opinion on if you think JimBob is scum or town.
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LaserGuy
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:50 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:@LaserGuy: How do you reconcile Frozen going after Jim D1?


Lazy bus. jimbob wasn't under any pressure when Frozen voted for him. Probably Frozen voted for jimbob to create some distance early. His vote just sat there for awhile. Zyth started the real push on jimbob here. By the time Frozen posted next, jimbob had five votes, peaking as high as six. Jumping off the wagon at that point would look pretty bad, and the only alternative was another buddy.


Adding missing word.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:52 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:I'll give you ego on the plytho read, but how is my ego tied up in my LaserGuy read?
You're so sure about your read that you'd rather twist the narrative to fit the facts into your story than consider the possibility that your story doesn't match the facts.

What is my story I'm telling myself about LaserGuy? What are the facts that I'm ignoring?

Don't you have Laser as probably town for being willing to take the bomb? That's one of my main townie points for him as well.

@LaserGuy: That's reasonable. Why is your confidence on FF scum higher then on JimBob scum?
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#HBC | Zyth
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:58 pm UTC

Laser's read post is hot. Pretty much lines up with where I'm at. Convinced me on Ryu. Not lynching Frozen though. Jim is play.

Unvote: jimbob
Vote: jimbob


(vote before was half-arse following of Boom. would like to indicate that it's more serious now. jim's response to Boom is scummyscumscum)

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:00 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I never said FF was likely town, UNLESS there was only one scum team. I was more confident in this case that he would be scum than I was that you would be, in a two team situation (hence why there was a maybe next to your name in that summary). At the time, I felt that a second scum team was fairly likely, so why is it a surprise that FrozenFlame or possibly you would be a better lynch candidate than people I had little to no read on at that point?

Alright, fair enough about FF, but you said about me,
There is a small chance that he is on a second scum team, but I don't feel it. He's likely town.
Your saying even if there are two teams I'm still likely town. That does not put me below neutral, and it does not match you later putting me as likely second scum team.
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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:01 pm UTC

FrozenFlame: another case of mutual defense, this time with jimbob. However jimbob's case for him is weak, disregarding the problematic points and focusing on a single comment plus FF's post D2 hammer post which I don't agree with at all. In return FF defends him for sticking his neck out which could easily come from scum as well to gain town-credit. That whole interaction feels weird. FF's top4 is lazy, not scum-hunting just listing 3 'lurkers' plus a maybe. Reading his D3 post also gave me flashbacks to Shakespeare where plytho plus dimochka were sheeping me. Probably scum.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:02 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Laser's read post is hot. Pretty much lines up with where I'm at. Convinced me on Ryu. Not lynching Frozen though. Jim is play.

Unvote: jimbob
Vote: jimbob


(vote before was half-arse following of Boom. would like to indicate that it's more serious now. jim's response to Boom is scummyscumscum)

Aww, I wanted to let the windsocks try to stand on their own first... : /
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:03 pm UTC

bessie wrote:
Spoiler:
plytho wrote:
bessie wrote:
plytho wrote: I’m not claiming setup knowledge. Based on what’s been said about OS powers and the flips we had I have an estimate of what the range of powers is in this game. A one shot communication cop seems too weak. A daily extra lynch with built in protection seems too strong.
I think that you’re making an assumption that is not necessarily true. You are assuming that every player has roughly “equal” powers. I was going to discuss this a little more when I answer Zen’s question to me from this post, but Sabrar suspiciously never replied to my query here. plytho, you’ve only played games where every player is guaranteed a power role, and in games where the mod tried to give everyone (town, scum, indie) something interesting and balanced so everyone would have fun. Those were also much smaller games. Anyway, I will note that some players in this game have claimed strong and/or complex powers, but it’s not unrealistic that there may also be players with very weak or almost useless powers.
I agree that I'm making an assumption. That's what you're quoting. (estimate=assumption) The results of my assumptions have turned out correct: PW isn't a one-shot communication cop and LaserGuy's power isn't a daily power.
And this sort of proves my point that your analysis and reads are based on assumptions that are wrong. In that quote I’ve pretty much told you that in this case your assumption is wrong, and you’ve told me that you’re going to be using your wrong assumption as a basis for your analysis anyway. So you’re possibly a stubborn misguided townie. Or you are filtering out my content and/or ignoring something I'm pointing out for some odd undetermined reason, which would be odd because you claim to have a town lean on me. Or you’re scum trying to force through analysis based on misinformation.
I'm definitely stubborn. I you haven't convinced me that my assumption is wrong. This is what you said:
bessie wrote:plytho, you’ve only played games where every player is guaranteed a power role, and in games where the mod tried to give everyone (town, scum, indie) something interesting and balanced so everyone would have fun.
To my understanding, this crossover game would be exactly what you're describing here. That's the basis of my assumption and this is supported by the opening post/signup (There are NO Vanilla Roles!), FrozenFlame's opening post and Maven calling this a crazy power role game.

Can you explain why it's wrong to base my assumption on those posts?

Btw, I don't think every role is pretty much equally strong, of course there's variation. I just think there's an upper and a lower bound to the possible strength of the roles.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:04 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Don't you have Laser as probably town for being willing to take the bomb? That's one of my main townie points for him as well.
BoomFrog wrote:LaserGuy - opportunistic and manipulative (scummy but also just how he is). I could see his ability being on scum with a restriction that it has to be used before a certain day. I could also see him promising to take the bomb because he thinks he has to our he will be revealed as scummy like he was D1 of X-Men for choosing no lynch over self hammer. Targeting Zen was very aggressive, I'd have gone for someone easier to go after like Gamma, Red or Spak. Although Laser is confident as scum or town and he is ambitious. As scum he'd probably go for the easier target. I don't know, I'm all over the place on Laser. Scum lean but not my top lynch choice.
I didn't read it that way.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:10 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:@LaserGuy: That's reasonable. Why is your confidence on FF scum higher then on JimBob scum?


Frozen's content is more objectively awful. My strongest pings on jimbob are the fact that he's going out of his way to defend Frozen (and Ryu, though it was Frozen I picked up on first). FMPOV flipping Frozen will catch the others.

My reads on them are strongly interconnected though. I'll happily push jim instead if you guys are sold on that.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:17 pm UTC

Red Ryu: very stubborn about indies. Could be his normal stance but also a great excuse not to actually scumhunt. Also defends both FF and jimbob (softly). Otherwise very little content. Seems active lurky, possible scummate of FF. Scummy.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:21 pm UTC

@BoomFrog, how confident are you in your read on plytho?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:36 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Laser's read post is hot. Pretty much lines up with where I'm at. Convinced me on Ryu. Not lynching Frozen though. Jim is play.

Unvote: jimbob
Vote: jimbob


(vote before was half-arse following of Boom. would like to indicate that it's more serious now. jim's response to Boom is scummyscumscum)

Aww, I wanted to let the windsocks try to stand on their own first... : /
Whoops. I mean uh Frozen is totes an option and I have no idea who the play is *throat clear*

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:37 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:@BoomFrog, how confident are you in your read on plytho?

Sabrar's put a grain of salt in it. I'd still say 70% though. Even without the "SoulRead" his other content is good.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:42 pm UTC

I've been out all evening and am too tired to put together a proper series of posts right now. In all likelihood, it'll be same tomorrow evening, but I'll try to make more time in my lunch break this time.

BoomFrog - why did you wait until D3 to share your concerns with my posting style? You could have brought it up at basically any point D2 with the same reasons. As for putting you below neutral, I think you're misreading or misrepresenting that grouping post, because I thought I made it clear that I didn't consider you likely scum, hence the "maybe". I'm unsure which posts you were referring to though in your latest post on this, so please clarify.

On the FrozenFlame late D2 post, the bits I was thinking of came pre-hammer, if I remember rightly, but it will need to wait until I have more time and a proper computer to detail it exactly.

On Red Ryu, IIRC, my opinion improved of him, because his activity level and quality had picked up over time, so I was not feeling it as strongly later. I didn't change my vote, because I wasn't convinced enough about an alternative at that point, until I eventually voted moody.

Back to an old point made by Sabrar, re. his posting quantity, but I felt like when I sorted by author, there were far more posts from Sabrar than in other games. I'd look at the actual numbers, if I had the time.

Zyth, you asked me why I asked the Madge questions, right? It's for two reasons. 1) It helps me understand the mindsets of other players. 2) It was a partial attempt at defence of Madge. The questions I asked were intended to get you and EGW to consider your case on Madge and whether or not it makes sense. Also, it's worth pointing out that I often don't have a preconceived idea of what I want from a question. I think I've said this before in another game. Sometimes, the responses are interesting, other times not.

My current top four are the four remaining in my pool from earlier, that I haven't looked at yet: BoomFrog, Zyth, Red Ryu, Yolinda.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:47 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:I'm a miller


If Zen's power detects miller as aligned with mafia that's actually pretty great! (Assuming that's how it works and Zen is town.) Using you as a baseline to detect scum makes this power better.


Without knowing the specifics of what Zen's ability is supposed to do, I can't be certain, but my role PM strongly suggests that I return a result of mafia under all circumstances, so yes, I think this would likely work.

Going by the wording of your PM do you think if there are two teams you would show up aligned to either? Does the wording in your PM give an indication of if there may be multiple mafia teams? Do you think you would show aligned with an Anti-town Indy?
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:00 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
plytho wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:I'm a miller


If Zen's power detects miller as aligned with mafia that's actually pretty great! (Assuming that's how it works and Zen is town.) Using you as a baseline to detect scum makes this power better.


Without knowing the specifics of what Zen's ability is supposed to do, I can't be certain, but my role PM strongly suggests that I return a result of mafia under all circumstances, so yes, I think this would likely work.


Going by the wording of your PM do you think if there are two teams you would show up aligned to either?


I'm not sure. It would depend on exactly how the teams are defined, I think. Most likely it would not be able to distinguish between them.

BoomFrog wrote:Does the wording in your PM give an indication of if there may be multiple mafia teams?


I think it's consistent with either scenario.

BoomFrog wrote:Do you think you would show aligned with an Anti-town Indy?


I am pretty sure we would show up as different alignments.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:05 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:Don't you have Laser as probably town for being willing to take the bomb? That's one of my main townie points for him as well.
BoomFrog wrote:LaserGuy - opportunistic and manipulative (scummy but also just how he is). I could see his ability being on scum with a restriction that it has to be used before a certain day. I could also see him promising to take the bomb because he thinks he has to our he will be revealed as scummy like he was D1 of X-Men for choosing no lynch over self hammer. Targeting Zen was very aggressive, I'd have gone for someone easier to go after like Gamma, Red or Spak. Although Laser is confident as scum or town and he is ambitious. As scum he'd probably go for the easier target. I don't know, I'm all over the place on Laser. Scum lean but not my top lynch choice.
I didn't read it that way.

Sorry, I skipped articulating some "obvious" points. As I said, the post was hurried. Laser volunteering to take the bomb was townie, Laser using his power early was townie (waiting to use a one shot means you might die first and an early bonus lynch helps us course correct earlier). The things I wrote down where my thoughts others hadn't said yet. All these conflicting points are what brought me to "all over the place" on Laser.

New thoughts: The power seems very weak for scum if it's their only power, however some of OS scum have a long list of one shots. However, if that is the case I'd expect Laser to use something else first.

New read list from him is totally solid. I'm amending my read of LaserGuy to likely town. Under plytho on my list.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:15 pm UTC

Looks like I did actually misread jim's response to Boom. Still thinking on it.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Zyth, you asked me why I asked the Madge questions, right? It's for two reasons. 1) It helps me understand the mindsets of other players. 2) It was a partial attempt at defence of Madge. The questions I asked were intended to get you and EGW to consider your case on Madge and whether or not it makes sense. Also, it's worth pointing out that I often don't have a preconceived idea of what I want from a question. I think I've said this before in another game. Sometimes, the responses are interesting, other times not.
What do you think about our mindset? Do you agree or disagree with the possible scum motive from Madge? Do you agree or disagree with taking out two scum reads at once?

I have another question: Why do you think I should have outted my target from last Night? Why were you curious on whether or not I had?

BoomFrog wrote:In this game, when I challenged him about acting the same as in fridge he replied, "Well after this game it will be my townie meta".

That HepAlien slip.

Spoiler:
plytho wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Stop agreeing with ppl that you're playing to your scum meta and show us how it's different.
Luckily, after this game it won't be my scum meta anymore :D

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:19 pm UTC

BoomFrog - why did you wait until D3 to share your concerns with my posting style? You could have brought it up at basically any point D2 with the same reasons.
I read the majority of your content during the night.

As for putting you below neutral, I think you're misreading or misrepresenting that grouping post, because I thought I made it clear that I didn't consider you likely scum, hence the "maybe". I'm unsure which posts you were referring to though in your latest post on this, so please clarify.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:At the time, I felt that a second scum team was fairly likely, so why is it a surprise that FrozenFlame or possibly you would be a better lynch candidate than people I had little to no read on at that point?
The two underlined parts are conflicted.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:22 pm UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:That HepAlien slip.
Well, I was the one to bring up the original issue...

Sigh... woof.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Wed Oct 04, 2017 10:31 pm UTC

Madge wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:
Madge wrote:Madge: Some weird half-jester (is given powers if she is half-lynched; tree stumps if she hammers a lynch)
Mpolo: town bus driver


Why did you include "town" in mpolo's claim, but not your own?


Because in the post immediately before mine mpolo wrote town, I'm sure if I wrote that I was town half-jester someone would chime in with "why are you emphasising your towniness methinks the lady doth protest too much"

EGW wrote:I want you treestumped, and that's the only way you will be useful to me or town at all.


How is me being tree stumped useful? If I'm town, it removes a town vote and power from the game. if I'm scum, it lets a useless scum hang around who is going to lead you astray (yes, I do actually do content, and sometimes I get really good results: check out the batman and joker mafia for a few years back, I basically broke the game by making a claim that every single player knew was false. Ghost I mafia I baited another player into getting modkilled in order to test a theory. I might not "scumhunt" these days but that doesn't mean I'm not useful). Like basically your best case scenario is if I'm lying and don't get tree stumped I'm exposed - in that case though you think I'm a liar so why not just lynch me for being lying scum? I don't get it.

for the record I don't think you're being a jerk for stumping me I think you're being a jerk for your tone with other people.

and for the extra record, yes, I will submit to being a stump if nobody else will hamemr (and I don't know why but Sabrar is apaprently my #1 fan (THANK YOU) so I am guessing I could put a vote on before Sabrar and he'd be glad to hammer for me so this stupid st ump thing doesn't befall me). I'd rather be stumped than nolynch and obviously rather stump than mislynch.

I'm baffled by why you and others are claiming that you will be useless as a tree stump. How would it be different than what you're doing now? How would it be different than what you intend to do given enough claims? One's voice is much more influential than their vote. Even though your vote will be gone (which you haven't really been using anyway), you'll still be able to help us figure out the game. Based on the examples that you gave, it seems like you are very much capable of this.

As to why it's better to tree stump you than to lynch you:

In the event that you're not telling the truth, you won't be stumped upon hammer and we will thus have confirmed scum. It's a guaranteed way to reveal scum without using a lynch. We aren't 100% certain on whether or not you're scum, so why potentially mislynch when we can just confirm that you're scum and then lynch you tomorrow? In the event that you are telling the truth and we mislynch you, it would have been dumb for us to have done so when we could have simply had you clear yourself while at the same time lynching a mafia suspect.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Madge » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:29 am UTC

But what I don't get (still) is that if I'm telling the truth, you're effectively mislynching me anyway because you don't have my vote to outweigh scum's. If I'm lying then you have to use a whole other lynch to kill me. So if you think I'm telling the truth, you want to keep me alive and maybe activate my vote. If you think I'm scum, you want to lynch me. I don't see how this "compromise" of having me hammer actually benefits anyone.

Like, you would be still more-or-less using a lynch to kill me, you just get to keep my bitter corpse around - and for all my big talk you're saying I'm "wasting a slot".

I'll hammer a lynch IFF it's the only way to avoid a no-lynch but I'm hoping that there is at least one person around who will be willing to hammer instead so that way we're not (potentially) losing 2 town votes with 1 lynch action.

----
CLAIMS
Madge: half-jester (is given powers if she is half-lynched, good for three half-lynches; tree stumps if she hammers a lynch)
Mpolo: bus driver
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