Crossover Mafia | Game!

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bessie
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby bessie » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:19 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:@Bessie: Your posting format makes it very difficult to coherently reply to you so I'm taking some actually on computer time to reply to things I noted but haven't gotten back to.
What would make things easier for you? I’ve been trying my best to cut down on the walls by using more links and less quotes. Would it help if I broke up my larger posts into multiple smaller posts? It sometimes breaks up my train of thought though.

BoomFrog wrote: Yes. Although he backed off because he was upsetting you AND because it was hurting your ability to scum hunt. He tried to back off, you reeled him back into it. He said "I'll wait on my questions" you said, "ask them now". And yes, I think he is self aware about what he was doing. It was the focal point of his game in fridge. In this game, when I challenged him about acting the same as in fridge he replied, "Well after this game it will be my townie meta".
I think you’re mistaken. Read just his and my posts to see who is reeling in who. What makes you think he was trying to back off? Because he said this (Sept 22, 10:06 am UTC)?
plytho wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote: Stop trying to continue the back and forth with bessie when the points have already been summed up. It doesn't look genuine any more.
I made my final point (+why I continued), consider it stopped.
A little more than two hours earlier he said this (Sept 22, 7:42 am UTC):
plytho wrote: I don't want to drop this because I feel very strongly that this is a townie thing to do and I will keep doing it in future games. I want to talk this out so you know where I'm coming from next time I do something like this.
I pointed this out here. And he still continued with the same questions, see this post. If you care to read through some of our exchanges, you’ll see that I was responding to him, because if I didn’t respond to everything he posted asking me why I was avoiding answering his questions.

And you’re misrepresenting the “I’ll wait on the questions” event. plytho said he had some responses for me but wanted wait to post them until after I completed my reads here, so as not to distract me. I told him to go ahead and post them here, because I wouldn’t be completing my reads until he was asleep, and if he waited to post his questions I would be asleep and wouldn’t see them in time to respond (Monday morning not good, working all day, home close to deadline Monday night, plytho is in Europe, 9 hours ahead of me). He posted his questions in a spoiler, I finished my reads, then I responded to plytho here, (end of day). You make it sound like I was provoking him with “ask them now”, where this was actually just us working with our time zones to make sure we had time to cover anything. You’re deliberately misrepresenting what happened in this particular instance and painting me as aggressive in a rare situation where I wasn’t.

By the way, you declaring that he backed off to spare my feelings gets it in print for everyone to see, but it doesn’t make it true. And your response makes me more skeptical of your plytho soulread and your motives (see also: Madge).

Zen, thank you for the hydra stuff here. I don’t want to use any of my already too scarce game time replying to it now. I’ll look at it on N3, and if I have a question maybe I’ll put it in the Gojoe thread and we can talk without active lurking :D (if you don’t mind).

Sabrar wrote:Getting back to BoomFrog: I'm liking his more recent content but I think he's too confident in soulreading plytho, also he seems to find excuses for his case on LaserGuy. However both could be simply due to his ego. Slight Town.
Kind of like you and your soulread on Madge.

plytho wrote:I'm definitely stubborn. I you haven't convinced me that my assumption is wrong. This is what you said:
bessie wrote:plytho, you’ve only played games where every player is guaranteed a power role, and in games where the mod tried to give everyone (town, scum, indie) something interesting and balanced so everyone would have fun.
To my understanding, this crossover game would be exactly what you're describing here. That's the basis of my assumption and this is supported by the opening post/signup (There are NO Vanilla Roles!), FrozenFlame's opening post and Maven calling this a crazy power role game.

Can you explain why it's wrong to base my assumption on those posts?

Btw, I don't think every role is pretty much equally strong, of course there's variation. I just think there's an upper and a lower bound to the possible strength of the roles.

Context:
Spoiler:
plytho wrote: I’m not claiming setup knowledge. Based on what’s been said about OS powers and the flips we had I have an estimate of what the range of powers is in this game. A one shot communication cop seems too weak. A daily extra lynch with built in protection seems too strong.

bessie wrote: I think that you’re making an assumption that is not necessarily true. You are assuming that every player has roughly “equal” powers. I was going to discuss this a little more when I answer Zen’s question to me from this post, but Sabrar suspiciously never replied to my query here. plytho, you’ve only played games where every player is guaranteed a power role, and in games where the mod tried to give everyone (town, scum, indie) something interesting and balanced so everyone would have fun. Those were also much smaller games. Anyway, I will note that some players in this game have claimed strong and/or complex powers, but it’s not unrealistic that there may also be players with very weak or almost useless powers.

plytho wrote: I agree that I'm making an assumption. That's what you're quoting. (estimate=assumption) The results of my assumptions have turned out correct: PW isn't a one-shot communication cop and LaserGuy's power isn't a daily power.

bessie wrote: And this sort of proves my point that your analysis and reads are based on assumptions that are wrong. In that quote I’ve pretty much told you that in this case your assumption is wrong, and you’ve told me that you’re going to be using your wrong assumption as a basis for your analysis anyway. So you’re possibly a stubborn misguided townie. Or you are filtering out my content and/or ignoring something I'm pointing out for some odd undetermined reason, which would be odd because you claim to have a town lean on me. Or you’re scum trying to force through analysis based on misinformation.

I didn’t say there are any vanilla roles. I’m saying that your assumptions are wrong. Let’s consider the following role groupings:
A) Oh boy I’m a Super-Powered-Townie! Wow, everything they said about Overswarm’s games is true! A can’t believe I got such great powers, and the mechanics are so complex and interesting! I can almost win this by myself. Ooohhh this is going to be so much fun I can’t wait oh I just hate this N0 phase.
B) Well all right, nice! I like it, this should be a good game, and if my role is any indication, well balanced and fun, but challenging. I’ve got something good if I use it wisely, but will also need to use my deductive skills if we’re going to win this.
C) WTF? Are you kidding me? What good is that going to be, if I even decide to use it? I can’t imagine that this is in any way whatsoever useful. Oh well, effectively vanilla town I guess. Good thing my deductive powers are totally awesome. Maybe Overswarm is overrated.

plytho, your role falls into level B, so you are assuming that everyone’s role must be a B, because it fits your sense of balance. B is your upper and lower bound. And why shouldn’t you believe this, it’s the recent norm on xkcd and in every game you’ve ever played. Your greatest error is that you are so sure that everyone is a B and that this is supported by two claims (which it is not, claims are merely claims and the flips contain no setup information), that you are unwilling to consider anything else. You are making an analysis based on very incomplete and possibly unreliable information. Your unwillingness to reconsider when I practically told you twice that you were wrong makes me think that you are deliberately trying to spread misinformation about the setup. Which maybe you already know more about that I do.

My role is either A or C, so I am taking into consideration that A, B, and C may all be in the game.

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:29 am UTC

bessie wrote:Kind of like you and your soulread on Madge.
There's a big difference. I know I'm right. :D

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby bessie » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:30 am UTC

Don't you ever sleep? :P

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:35 am UTC

Sleep is overrated.

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:19 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
Evil George Washington wrote:She created this whole fabrication to stay off of Moody if she could help it, and now she prefers to be lynched instead of Tree Stumped today.
Already cleared up with Zen that this was based on reading comprehension failure and she never said that. Your insistence of me replying to a non-existing question is noted.


I said I am taking that as null. I have not seen her role PM, and I don't trust her.

Sabrar wrote:@EGW: you do realize that by stumping town!Madge scum needs 1 less mislynch to win, right?


You do realize by stumping scum!Madge town gets utility out of her being stumped while also allowing us to have an extra lynch.

Sabrar wrote:@EGW: do you have an updated top4? I'm curious.


Not at the moment. I'd need to construct a new reads list, and re-evaluate you. I'm going to read the game Laser gave me. Also can you give me another game to read of yours? (Town/Scum) I can say that quickly, I'd still be interested in Frozen Flame going, possibly Yolinda for not even getting into the game, maybe MPOLO. Unvote

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:21 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:@bessie: I'm very disappointed that you still didn' react to my ping here. Also, who is your D1 tunnel? It would appear to be plytho based on your extensive interaction with him but he's not low enough in your list. Are time issues your only problem?


Why did you give Bessie an out here?

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:23 am UTC

Sabrar: What is your read on Zen now, and what do you think of his D3 play?

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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:33 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:1. I said I am taking that as null. I have not seen her role PM, and I don't trust her.

2. You do realize by stumping scum!Madge town gets utility out of her being stumped while also allowing us to have an extra lynch.

3. Also can you give me another game to read of yours? (Town/Scum)
1. Not an answer. Zen's question was invalid but you chose to push it.

2. Scum!Madge losing a vote doesn't change the math. LYLO becomes MYLO but we don't get an extra lynch.

3. Town: Pen Pal, Scum: Diablo. Both are on front page.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:35 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Why did you give Bessie an out here?
That's not an out. She already mentioned time problems before, didn't need me to give her a 'cop-out'.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:36 am UTC

The extra lynch comes from not having to lynch her.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:38 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Sabrar: What is your read on Zen now, and what do you think of his D3 play?
Basics can be found in my read on BoomFrog, reserving judgement and would like to see her prove herself.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:39 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
Evil George Washington wrote:Sabrar: What is your read on Zen now, and what do you think of his D3 play?
Basics can be found in my read on BoomFrog, reserving judgement and would like to see her prove herself.


I want you to state it from the top of your head. Tell me. You have enough content to read Zen D3.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:40 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
Evil George Washington wrote:Why did you give Bessie an out here?
That's not an out. She already mentioned time problems before, didn't need me to give her a 'cop-out'.


Then there was no reason to ask 'is it time problems?' if she already mentioned it.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:40 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:The extra lynch comes from not having to lynch her.
You'll always have to lynch scum!Madge at some point, not sure what you're getting at. Will type out math in an hour or soand then we can discuss specifics.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:43 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:I want you to state it from the top of your head. Tell me. You have enough content to read Zen D3.
But not the time to read him thoroughly. Also rich coming from a guy who just recently had a lot of nulls.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Evil George Washington » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:45 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:FrozenFlame: lot of comments about setup-balance, basically only 2 posts with actual content. The first of which I like, good questions/observations though I would have liked a bit of explanation on "This is gross af" as was the case for the rest of the post. In the second his explanations are mostly in order however I don't like being okay with someone's lynch based on gut only, too many times has scum posted 'reads' like that in order to justify a false scum-read. Note to myself: reread Dark Tower to get a feel of him (possibly Monday). Currently slight townie-lean but going forward I hope he can avoid giving gut-reads.


Have you ever asked someone to stop giving gut reads in previous games? Which ones?

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Evil George Washington
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:48 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
Evil George Washington wrote:I want you to state it from the top of your head. Tell me. You have enough content to read Zen D3.
But not the time to read him thoroughly. Also rich coming from a guy who just recently had a lot of nulls.


What are you talking about? I didn't have a lot of nulls recently. D2 yes, but I only had a slight few nulls. I'm not asking for a thorough read here.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:53 am UTC

Anyway that's all the questions I have for you. Don't have anything else to say at the moment. I want to see others post. (Like Yolinda or Frozen)

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Evil George Washington » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:05 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:EGW - He's no chessmaster and I don't think he's a Yoloswag clone either, so bussing Moody D1 makes no sense. He's parinoid, but I can't fault him for that.


Funnily enough, I have gotten into Chess, and have played with Zen multiple times. Going to sleep now, good night.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:06 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Then there was no reason to ask 'is it time problems?' if she already mentioned it.
I'm interacting differently with people based on the history I have with them. If it's really that important to you I can go into details later.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:11 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:I'm not asking for a thorough read here.
I still find her scummy, her early push for a quick LaserGuy lynch stands out as another example of just wanting to lynch someone else. However we've clarified a lot of our discrepancies and occasionally BoomFrog has better reads than me so I've started to entertain the possibility that I'm wrong about her.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:15 am UTC

Evil George Washington wrote:Have you ever asked someone to stop giving gut reads in previous games? Which ones?
Secret Santa 2015. Will link later.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:31 am UTC

@Bessie: with every post you make about the possible strength of powers I'm widening the range of what I expect. I'm not rigidly holding on to my assumption. It's hard to describe a lower and upper bound to that range and my range is probably still narrower than yours but I am taking your concerns into account.

You're also right about BoomFrog misrepresenting (or misreading) the situation in his soulread on me. I was never trying to spare your feelings. The reason I wanted to wait with my questions was because I wanted to give you the room to make reads. The reason I declared I would stop talking was because I was upset, not because I thought you were. I never got the impression you were trying to reel me back in.

The bit about me being happy that this would no longer be my scum meta is quite accurate though :D
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D1 Begins! | 9/13

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:43 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
Evil George Washington wrote:Have you ever asked someone to stop giving gut reads in previous games? Which ones?
Secret Santa 2015. Will link later.
Link. Also referenced later.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:52 am UTC

Math
Take a hypothetical game of 8 VT-s plus 3 Goons (with majority lynch rules). Town can mislynch twice before LYLO.
Take away a single vote from Town. If Town mislynches twice they do not have the numbers to force majority -> scum wins.
Take away a single vote from scum. If Town mislynches twice situation will be 4 vs 2+1, if Town mislynches again they lose. Ergo no additional mislynch gained.
Elementary math, don't see why EGW and Zen are arguing against it.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:04 am UTC

We're arguing that we want to lynch Madge anyway. Instead of lynching her though, we can have her hammer. So we are essentially getting two lynches in a single day.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:06 am UTC

But having her stumped is not lynching her in the sense that no advantage is gained.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:15 am UTC

Zen and EGW don't agree about what the know-it-all power does. If Zen's interpretation is correct, there's an info dump with setup information.

Would it be useful for everyone to make a guess at the setup numbers with megaman posting the real setup so we can check back when they flip? By randomly adding (coin flip) 'I am certain about this info' or 'I'm guessing, like the rest of you' megaman can let us know if that was part of the info he got.

Btw, is there anything Yolinda can post at this point that won't get him lynched?
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:35 am UTC

plytho wrote:Btw, is there anything Yolinda can post at this point that won't get him lynched?
Why wouldn't there be?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:41 am UTC

Well, the longer he lurks, the more suspicious he gets. He'd have to open with a very townie post to shake the suspicion that he's scum trying to get by without posting anything.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:44 am UTC

plytho wrote:Well, the longer he lurks, the more suspicious he gets. He'd have to open with a very townie post to shake the suspicion that he's scum trying to get by without posting anything.
What gives you the impression that he is lurking?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:50 am UTC

Umm, he hasn't posted and has been online since the day started.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:52 am UTC

Hmm, mpolo’s list is almost an exact copy of mine.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:55 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:But having her stumped is not lynching her in the sense that no advantage is gained.

The advantage is that if she isn't actually turned into a stump, then we have confirmed scum (essentially a cop guilty). If she is turned into a stump, then we are removing a vote that could potentially swing things toward mafia in mylo. Assume indy Madge for a moment. If the game ends up with an even number of players, where town only outnumbers mafia by 1, then Madge can form a voting block with mafia to achieve her win condition.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:57 am UTC

plytho wrote:Umm, he hasn't posted and has been online since the day started.

Dark Horse did the same. Why is this different?

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:01 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:If the game ends up with an even number of players,
I see where you're potentially coming from but in that case this issue should be discussed tomorrow and not today.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby plytho » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:06 am UTC

#HBC | Zyth wrote:Dark Horse did the same. Why is this different?
It's not?

Clarification: I'm not sure Yolinda is lurking. He could just be inactive. But, in the scenario I talked about (Yolinda will post something) he is lurking.

If he shows up and starts talking he's a suspicious lurker and a good lynch candidate.
If he doesn't show up he's an inactive and the mods problem.
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby #HBC | Zyth » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:11 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:If the game ends up with an even number of players,
I see where you're potentially coming from but in that case this issue should be discussed tomorrow and not today.

Very well.

plytho wrote:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Dark Horse did the same. Why is this different?
It's not?

Clarification: I'm not sure Yolinda is lurking. He could just be inactive. But, in the scenario I talked about (Yolinda will post something) he is lurking.

If he shows up and starts talking he's a suspicious lurker and a good lynch candidate.
If he doesn't show up he's an inactive and the mods problem.

Why are you using that as a scum tell? Znirk was inactive and he flipped town. DH was inactive and he is currently a town read of yours. Clearly, inactivity isn't a scum tell. I also don't get why you don't think we would be able to town read Yolinda from the content he does hypothetically produce.

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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:16 am UTC

@plytho - we don't know if Megaman is even Town, so we can't trust anything they give out. If it's more intended in case of his flip, I think this has similar problems to "If I am the cop": those who give incorrect answers (which scum will likely spot) are ruled out as Megaman, unless Megaman lies, in which case, what was the point? I assume that town!Megaman would have revealed themselves, if they thought their information was important to town, and outweighed them being outed.

Also, I've been mulling over this, but I think I'll claim. It's unlikely to do much harm, and I was thinking on using the ability tonight, but I'd like to hear people's opinions. I am a Town Vote Limiter. Once per game, I can target two players, and the next day, only they can be voted for. I'll be honest and say I've had no idea how I can usefully use this ability. I'm concerned that doing so and picking badly forces at best a No Lynch, and at worst a mislynch. My current plan is to pick two of my top four, in the belief that I will hit two scum.

On questions over Madge: I'm not sure I can articulate what I learnt about EGW's and Zyth's mindset, other than the idea that both consider not being able to vote almost as good as death. I felt like the suggested scum motive was fair, although I'm not convinced it's something Madge would do. I don't disagree with taking out two scum reads at once. However, as Sabrar has pointed out, it's not quite the same as that. I do have a counter-argument to Sabrar's point though: assuming town has lynched all scum except Madge, then town can't lose, so we have actually taken out scum, sort of.

Zyth, re. saying who you targeted last night, I was confused as to why you hadn't, given you'd previously claimed your N1 action on D2, although now that I think about it more, you presumably did so because you needed confirmation in the wording dispute. I honestly didn't think about the risk of people messing with returning of results. Regardless, I don't recall saying that you absolutely should have, although I guess asking the question implies it. "Curious" is something I throw into questions sometimes when I'm not too bothered by having the answer, but it would help me be less confused about a usually minor point.
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Sabrar
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Re: Crossover Mafia | D3 | 10/06

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:22 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I do have a counter-argument to Sabrar's point though: assuming town has lynched all scum except Madge, then town can't lose, so we have actually taken out scum, sort of.
You're forgetting about the NK. I considered that scenario as well, but it only works if we somehow know that Madge is the last scum, in which case her having no vote is irrelevant.


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