Hearthstone

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mosc
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby mosc » Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:31 am UTC

A lot of taunts too. The Litch King is 8/8 for 8, has an end of turn effect, and presents an immediate removal threat not only due to it's offense but to it's card advantage... so they also needed to give it Taut. 8/8 taunt for 8 is a druid specialty that was not far out of reasonable play in many decks and they made this neutral. It's not the only one. Lots of other new minions with effects also bring taunt with them to both provide slow decks with endgame while simultaneously stopping aggro.

I'm not a fan of this expansion. The DK cards all seem necessary and they force deck constructions into a fairly slow line of play. I actually think hunter winning on turn 9 with call of the wild is about as fast as the meta gets.
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Eebster the Great
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:35 am UTC

I haven't crafted any new cards yet, but I can say that there is still a lot of room for experimentation in the meta. The best players, as usual, seem quiet regarding aggro decks, but my aggro druid has been absolutely slaying. All I did was stick in the new Crypt Lord and Druid of the Swarm in place of some old borderline cards. (I think my list had Golakka Crawler and either Druid of the Claw or Tar Creeper; can't remember the latest.) I also added the Death Knight basically just because I got it for free and it seemed neat.

Druid of the Swarm is totally busted. In the vast majority of games it is "just" a 2 mana 1/5 Taunt Beast. Six stats and taunt for two mana is absurd even without the beast tag, but now I have a new favorite Mark of Y'shaarj target. That card is so strong, I even keep it in my mulligan now. And the fact that I can produce a poisonous beast instead if my Crypt Lord is already handling the situation is just icing on the cake. I really think this advance to an already tier-1 decklist is not to be ignored.

I'm not sure Malfurion the Pestilent is actually a good card in this deck, but I'm not taking him out yet. Expensive value cards are not really what an aggro deck wants, but like all hero cards, this is so powerful that it seems worth inclusion anyway. For my purposes, it basically gives me 2 taunting beasts plus an extra 2 damage a turn for the rest of the game. It's hard to really say that isn't worth the mana.

I'm still only rank 3, but I've just been fucking around completing quests. I really think the grind to legend would not take long with a deck like this.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Chen » Thu Aug 24, 2017 11:56 am UTC

Agro token druid is ridiculously strong right now. Those 5 health bodies it spawn make it very hard to remove them all and then you get hit with a mark of the lotus/power of the wild/savage roar and get wrecked. Forget the new bolster on a stick they have as well. Jade ramp druid and other slow decks are also quite strong, but even pirate warrior is still kicking around since it still is fast enough to do ok against Jade druid at least (its just over 50% for them which isn't terrible). Plus agro still steamrolls through all the greedy decks people are just randomly trying out.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:28 pm UTC

I don't play Unleash the Scarabs. That seems more like a midrange card, and it's only useful if you are behind on board.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Chen » Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:35 am UTC

Getting 2 scarabs is already good value. Every extra one is like an extra 2.5 mana worth of creatures. It's definitely one of the stronger cards in the set AND it's great for token druid since it does let you come back after you've emptied your hand and things will probably stick around so top deck buffs aren't wasted if you are behind.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Eebster the Great » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:07 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Getting 2 scarabs is already good value. Every extra one is like an extra 2.5 mana worth of creatures. It's definitely one of the stronger cards in the set AND it's great for token druid since it does let you come back after you've emptied your hand and things will probably stick around so top deck buffs aren't wasted if you are behind.

But it's not as good as Living Mana or Bittertide Hydra, which are the two cards it competes with in my list. I cannot remember ever being more than one minion behind on board in a game that was not completely hopeless (i.e. immediately resign), so it seems useless to me. It might have some application when innervated out against Pirate warrior or something, but my deck is faster than every other aggro deck.

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SDK
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby SDK » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:03 pm UTC

Anyone take down the Lich King with all nine classes yet? I'm almost there. Only Hunter left to go. Not quite sure where to go with this one yet.

I found Paladin and Shaman by far the hardest to work out. I built an Evolve deck to finally make Shaman work (Devolving his spirits to destroy his weapon worked nicely), but that required a bit of luck. With Paladin I ended up resorting to milling - I found it was just impossible to actually beat him card for card! Needed to make sure he had no cards left to fight with... so I gave him a Fel Reaver or two. :D

The King's a fun challenge. They did a decent job making each class a different puzzle to figure out.
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Eebster the Great
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:39 pm UTC

I had a lot of success with Evolve Shaman in Un'goro, and that deck is still clearly pretty decent. But after the Jade Spirit buff that gave it the Elemental tag, I wanted to try something a little different. Jade Elemental Shaman is hardly my idea, but it is still fairly rare, and I've found it very hard to make the deck work. Losing the best 1- and 2-drops forces me to change the way I play pretty substantially.

Jade Elemental Shaman sort of has to be midrange in the current meta, because it just doesn't have the reach of control decks and cannot realistically play Skulking Geist (since Evolve is too important). But to make room for some semblance of an Elemental package as well as two Jade Cheiftains, I have had to cut almost all of my early game. Clearly I will have to make some sacrifices, but does anyone know how I could make this deck work? Ideas that don't require any new legendaries are preferred. I do have all the cards mentioned in the next paragraph, as well as Stone Sentinel, which frankly just doesn't seem good enough (but perhaps with Thrall it could work somehow).

My ideas so far have included finding a midrange replacement for one or both Hexes (e.g. Fire Plume Phoenix), trying to fit in one or two Servants of Kalimos somehow, replacing one removal spell with a Volcano, fitting in Bloodmage Thalnos, replacing one or both Hot Spring Guardians with Tar Creepers, and replacing one or both Bonemares with Blazecallers. The current list is really fucking bad, so I'm sure there are a ton of possible improvements. But to be clear, I do want to keep both Evolves and Thrall, since those are my favorite parts of the deck. Kalimos is also mandatory, even if he is not the right card for the deck.

Here is my current list:

Evolve x2
Devolve x2
Jade Claws x2
Maelstrom Portal x2
Hot Spring Guardian x2
Lightning Storm
Mana Tide Totem x2
Spirit Echo
Hex x2
Jade Lightning x2
Bloodlust
Thrall, Deathseer
Aya Blackpaw
Fire Elemental x2
Bonemare x2
Jade Chieftain x2
Kalimos, Primal Lord

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SDK
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby SDK » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:20 pm UTC

I'm a bit confused as to what your deck is trying to do. It doesn't look like you have any really good ways to actually abuse Evolve (Doppelgangster?). Then you've got a bunch of Jade stuff, which is fine I guess, but let's slam in Kalimos and call it a day? There's not really any proper Elemental shell here at all. You've basically got three decks competing against each other, and I feel like you're not doing justice to any of them.

Evolve is not a great card unless it's built around - it requires a board presence to do anything, and randomly screws you by pumping out weak cards with good battecries. If you want this to be an Evolve deck, you need to make it an Evolve deck. Evolve needs to be a huge swing at least some of the time. I don't see that happening here.

The Jade/Elemental combo could work alongside each other, but you aren't playing an elemental deck as it is now. You're playing a Jade deck with Kalimos. I kind of like the theory there (you're not forcing any bad elementals into the deck this way), but you need to play it as a Jade deck in that case. That means you need to control the early game until your Golems can take over. Volcano seems good. A second Lightning Storm is probably required. Hell, if you're dead-set on keeping the Evolves, even Saronite Chain Gang ain't bad at keeping you alive. Mostly, I'd look towards reducing your top-end of the curve there. Golems win the late game, so you probably can ditch the Bonemare in favour of something that will keep you alive. Also, you're definitely not playing aggro here - you shouldn't need Bloodlust to close out the game.

It's a cool deck in theory, just needs some focus! Hope that helps.
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Eebster the Great
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Eebster the Great » Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:12 pm UTC

SDK wrote:I'm a bit confused as to what your deck is trying to do. It doesn't look like you have any really good ways to actually abuse Evolve (Doppelgangster?). Then you've got a bunch of Jade stuff, which is fine I guess, but let's slam in Kalimos and call it a day? There's not really any proper Elemental shell here at all. You've basically got three decks competing against each other, and I feel like you're not doing justice to any of them.

Evolve turns 5/5 Jade Chieftains into 8-drops and is generally solid with jade. Most Jade Shaman lists run Evolve, though admittedly usually with Thing from Below.

Evolve is not a great card unless it's built around - it requires a board presence to do anything, and randomly screws you by pumping out weak cards with good battecries. If you want this to be an Evolve deck, you need to make it an Evolve deck. Evolve needs to be a huge swing at least some of the time. I don't see that happening here.

I disagree. Evolve is a very strong card even if you don't build your deck around it.

The Jade/Elemental combo could work alongside each other, but you aren't playing an elemental deck as it is now. You're playing a Jade deck with Kalimos. I kind of like the theory there (you're not forcing any bad elementals into the deck this way), but you need to play it as a Jade deck in that case. That means you need to control the early game until your Golems can take over. Volcano seems good. A second Lightning Storm is probably required. Hell, if you're dead-set on keeping the Evolves, even Saronite Chain Gang ain't bad at keeping you alive. Mostly, I'd look towards reducing your top-end of the curve there. Golems win the late game, so you probably can ditch the Bonemare in favour of something that will keep you alive. Also, you're definitely not playing aggro here - you shouldn't need Bloodlust to close out the game.

I agree that Bonemare clearly needs to go. Bloodlust is also probably excessive.Rather than Saronite Chain Gang, it might make more sense to put in Thing from Below or even Jinyu Waterspeaker. Of course, there's Tol'vir Stoneshaper, but that card seems too situational for a deck like this.

By the way, you might have noticed that my list only includes 28 cards, because it is inexplicably missing Jade Spirit. There's two of them in there, obviously.

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SDK
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby SDK » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:25 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:Evolve turns 5/5 Jade Chieftains into 8-drops and is generally solid with jade. Most Jade Shaman lists run Evolve, though admittedly usually with Thing from Below.

A 5/5 Jade Golem costs 5, and turns into a 6 drop. There are a ton of 6-drops that are 6/6 or less, so it doesn't give you that much value. Most of your value there would be coming from your Jade Spirit (a 2/3 that turns into a 5 drop), but that's one card in your list. I believe you're right that most Jade lists run Evolve, but I've always thought that was because they were also running Evolve shenanigans like Doppelgangster.

I agree that Bonemare clearly needs to go. Bloodlust is also probably excessive.Rather than Saronite Chain Gang, it might make more sense to put in Thing from Below or even Jinyu Waterspeaker. Of course, there's Tol'vir Stoneshaper, but that card seems too situational for a deck like this.

Sure, whatever suits your fancy. I wasn't suggesting Chain Gang because it's a great card, just as an example of something that will keep you alive until your Golems can come online.

I agree that Stoneshaper is bad in this deck. That's one of the things I like about your list, you're not forcing bad elementals.
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Eebster the Great
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Eebster the Great » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:56 pm UTC

SDK wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:Evolve turns 5/5 Jade Chieftains into 8-drops and is generally solid with jade. Most Jade Shaman lists run Evolve, though admittedly usually with Thing from Below.

A 5/5 Jade Golem costs 5, and turns into a 6 drop. There are a ton of 6-drops that are 6/6 or less, so it doesn't give you that much value. Most of your value there would be coming from your Jade Spirit (a 2/3 that turns into a 5 drop), but that's one card in your list. I believe you're right that most Jade lists run Evolve, but I've always thought that was because they were also running Evolve shenanigans like Doppelgangster.

Not the golem, the Cheiftain. Jade Chieftain evolves into an 8-drop.

I agree that Stoneshaper is bad in this deck. That's one of the things I like about your list, you're not forcing bad elementals.

I was also thinking about replacing Aya with Magma Rager. How do you feel about that substitution?
Last edited by Eebster the Great on Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:48 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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SDK
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby SDK » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:58 pm UTC

I mean, if you really want a troll try adding Vol'jin instead. :o
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:33 pm UTC

SDK wrote:I mean, if you really want a troll try adding Vol'jin instead. :o
Vol'jin the Shaman card?
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SDK
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby SDK » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:54 pm UTC

About as playable as Magma Rager, I reckon. :wink:

EDIT: By the way, Eebster, I understand that you're trying to tell me to stop suggesting bad cards, but Saronite Chain Gang is not that bad. Infested Tauren saw some fringe play back in the day. Chain Gang is better, especially with your Evolve synergy. He may not be the best choice, but I guarantee he'd be an upgrade to what you're currently running.
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Eebster the Great
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Eebster the Great » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:49 pm UTC

I was actually referring to Tol'vir Stoneshaper and your assertion that I wasn't trying to "force bad elementals." Being the worst elemental of all, Magma Rager seemed to fit.

I've edited the last post, because its quotes were all screwed up anyway.

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SDK
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby SDK » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:49 pm UTC

Ah, fair enough. I read some snark into that that wasn't there, I guess. Apologies.
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