The Good Plaice

[Zohar]

I know we've talked about this show before but apparently not in its own thread - maybe in FaiD?

Season 2 started this week, here are some impressions:

Spoiler:

Chidi is not very funny when he's not around Eleanor.
Eleanor is so great and so smart.
Jason is still one of my favorite characters.

I'm really curious where they take this season. I was surprised they rebooted everything after the first episode again, but I guess it increases the stakes for Michael. I loved how the humans basically made the demons' lives hell.

[Diadem]

I just found out about this show today, and immediately proceeded to bingewatch the entire first season and the start of the second season. Have to way I loved it. It's definitely silly, but in a good way.

I especially love Janet. She's hilarious and heartwarming.

Spoilers for S2 start:

Spoiler:

I saw some people speculate that Janet can't lie because she's from the good place. But she does lie at least in this episode. She explicitly says "here in the good place" when talking to Jason.

I'm really curious to see where the shows is going. We basically know nothing about the wider universe, since everything revealed about it comes from either Michael or Janet, who are both unreliable. We don't know if you really need millions of points to reach the good place (I somehow doubt it). Actually we don't even know if the good place really exists, or if there's such a thing as a medium place, etc.

I'm half expecting the next big reveal to be that Michael is the one who's actually in the bad place, and that the 4 humans are actually his torturers, instead of the other way 'round.

[Zohar]

Spoiler:

Re: Janet - it's possible she doesn't know this is the bad place?

And your theory regarding Michael seems a bit far-fetched to me, but who knows with this show...

[SecondTalon]

Note - I've not watched any of season 2 yet, so this maybe wrong.

Spoiler:

Did you miss the background episode on Micheal?

The name of the place is The Good Place. Like Sunmerdale Estate, Rolling Hills Farm, CBGB, etc.

She's not lying. She gave an incomplete answer. A complete answer would be "We're in Micheal's first hellsphere, in a section named The Good Place. It has a sister section known as The Bad Place that exists primarily to aid in obfuscating that this is a hellsphere, as well as an in-between area separating the two"

Or, y'know, whatever the point of The Bad Place is, as well as that loner in the in-between.

[arbiteroftruth]

Note - I've not watched any of season 2 yet, so this maybe wrong.

Spoiler:

Did you miss the background episode on Micheal?

The name of the place is The Good Place. Like Sunmerdale Estate, Rolling Hills Farm, CBGB, etc.

She's not lying. She gave an incomplete answer. A complete answer would be "We're in Micheal's first hellsphere, in a section named The Good Place. It has a sister section known as The Bad Place that exists primarily to aid in obfuscating that this is a hellsphere, as well as an in-between area separating the two"

Or, y'know, whatever the point of The Bad Place is, as well as that loner in the in-between.

Contains a detail from season 2, ep 3:

Spoiler:

It's made pretty clear in episode 3 that The Medium Place is genuine, since the lawyer hasn't been rebooted. Which means her orientation video we saw in season 1 is genuine, which means Trevor the demon is genuine, which means Trevor's Bad Place neighborhood is probably genuine.

We also know for sure that Janet is good. When Michael is making his pitch to Shawn (Sean?) in the season 1 finale, he says "I even stole a Good Place Janet we can use".

[SecondTalon]

Spoiler:

sure, I'm not disputing that Janet is from the actual Good Place. But she's.... whatever she is, she's AI, so she only answers what she is asked.

Since their hellscape is literally named The Good Place, she doesn't lie when she says that's where they are. That's my only real point.

[Zohar]

Please include details of which episode exactly you're talking about in spoilers re: current season. I haven't watched episode 3 yet...

[Diadem]

Episode 3 hasn't been released yet. He's talking about episode 2.

Loving the 2nd season so far. The first season was good, but the second season so far has really kicked it up a notch.

[arbiteroftruth]

The premiere was a 2-parter, so I'm talking about episode 3, which aired 9/28.

[Zohar]

What arbiteroftruth said.

[Diadem]

The premiere was a 2-parter, so I'm talking about episode 3, which aired 9/28.

The premiere may have been double length, but it counts as a single episode. Netflix clearly labels the premiere as episode 1 and "Dance Dance Revolution" (the episode which was released yesterday) as episode 2.

[Zohar]

Wikipedia disagrees, but that doesn't particularly matter. My point about asking for specific spoilers stands.

[Diadem]

Wikipedia disagrees, but that doesn't particularly matter. My point about asking for specific spoilers stands.

So you're saying that the creators of the show are wrong about the episode numbering of their own show? That's certainly a novel way to look at things.

[SecondTalon]

Wikipedia disagrees, but that doesn't particularly matter. My point about asking for specific spoilers stands.

So you're saying that the creators of the show are wrong about the episode numbering of their own show? That's certainly a novel way to look at things.

I am saying that who gives a single fuck if Wikipedia or the Producers are right.

Label your spoilers.

End of conversation.

[Diadem]

Wikipedia disagrees, but that doesn't particularly matter. My point about asking for specific spoilers stands.

So you're saying that the creators of the show are wrong about the episode numbering of their own show? That's certainly a novel way to look at things.

I am saying that who gives a single fuck if Wikipedia or the Producers are right.

Label your spoilers.

End of conversation.

What the fuck are you modbreaking me for. I wasn't posting unlabeled spoilers. In fact the person who was doing that was you yourself. So go look in a bloody mirror if you want to have someone to shout at.

Seriously dude what the fuck.

[Zohar]

Moving right along...

Saw Dance Dance Resolution, episode 3 of season 2. It might have been the best one in the series? There are so many fantastic episodes in this show that I'm not sure anymore. I saw one review being worried they'd burn through amazing ideas too quickly and will run out of plot, but who cares - it was so great!

Now onto episode-specific discussions:

Spoiler:

Yeah, I find it fascination how much world-building we keep getting. I have absolutely no idea where this show is going. I agree with previous assertions that Janet is actually good, but I'm still weirded out that all those people are considered bad enough to be tortured forever - Eleanor and Jason, maybe? But Tahani and Chidee, while being obnoxious and bad in their own ways, aren't worthy of damnation. I think most people would agree on that. I guess I have theological issues with this whole concept anyway - Eleanor has substantially improved as a person in season one, and shown a lot of flexibility in season two. It just might be that one of their "medium place" plans was right and they are torturing Michael...

[Isaac Hill]

S2.E4

Spoiler:

It doesn't seem likely, but I sure hope they sent Mindy that cocaine.

I didn't like Janet's explanation about joining the charade. The content was OK, but the delivery was un-Janet like. They mentioned Janet becoming more sociable with every reboot; I hope this isn't what they meant.


Michael's original plan to psychologically torture the 4 humans might work if he embraced the reboots instead of dreading them. Finding out every couple weeks that you're in the Bad Place for eternity, that the reboots make any personal growth or connections with other futile can't be fun. He could even record the group's reactions when they find out, and show a greatest hits compilation before every reboot to really rub it in.

The main downside seems to be the number of demons needed to be NPCs. But, you can get around that by using improv actor humans who, given the metric this show's established so far, must all end up in the Bad Place. Offer them a repreive from their regularly scheduled torture for as long as they can keep the ruse going. They'll be under just as much pressure as Michael's been these past few episodes, so they'll be just as unhappy. And, when they eventually fail, they'll spend the rest of eternity in the regular Bad Place blaming themselves for not acting better.

[Angua]

Spoilers up to S2E4

Spoiler:

Wow, I kind of feel like this show is a cynical version of My Little Pony, what with the 'ethics' lessons. Looking forward to seeing where they take it with Vicky in charge - at least this time they should remember the cocaine. It also reminds me of Eric (Terry Pratchett Discworld book) where the king of hell does this kind of thing as he realises that it's more effective than physical torture which the souls get used to - all of the demons hate it, he eventually gets locked in an office where no one listens to the weird orders and everyone goes back to the normal kind of torture.

I wonder where they are going to go with Janet and the rebooting thing, especially as they mentioned it specifically in this episode. How has the Good Place not noticed that they're missing one yet!

[Diadem]

Really loving this show. I love how they keep going in new directions with this show.
Minor s02e05 (or 6 according to some obscene people) spoiler

Spoiler:

I want to see more of that Kierkegaard rap musical

And for some reason, I don't know why, the trolley people made me think of this forum

[SecondTalon]

Spoilers up to S2E4

General Janet musing

Spoiler:

I don't believe creation of a Janet is especially difficult. I think that, for whatever reason, The Bad Place can't make Good Place Janets, and likely vice versa. Janet also seemed.... very, very new at the start.

More specific, season 2 spoilers but still generic

Spoiler:

Given how strange Michael is, relative to his peers, and how they have problems wrapping their heads around the point of *not* physically torturing the humans, it could be an entire thing where they can't make a "Good" Janet because they can't comprehend what that even means.

[Pfhorrest]

Commenting so this thread will show up in View My Posts,

and also to beg Zohar to correct the typo in the first post. ("Plaice" -> "Place").

[Angua]

Dude, it's not a typo. And there wasn't a good pun involving shrimp, so fish was the closest I could get.

Also, yeah, I really loved the Trolley problem:

Spoiler:

SPLAT! I loved the look on Chidi's face. Also, I wonder if Janet going wrong is due to her feeling for Jason from ages ago? We know she develops some better social skills with each one, so maybe there's a tiny bit of memory left there? She definitely got worse the more Jason and Tahani got closer.

[Zohar]

Spoiler:

It's possible re Janet.

The show keeps confirming the points system is really how the world works (Michael added more details this week when he had no reason to lie) and I'm wondering if there's going to be a twist at all or if the world is really this bleak and all these peeps deserve to be tortured for eternity...

[Isaac Hill]

Trolley Problem

Spoiler:

I'm curious about the point system, too. If it is the ultimate arbiter of good and bad, then isn't debating ethics pointless? At best, you could look at the point values like the answers in the back of a math book, and work backwards from them to find out which ethical system gives the closest answers. Then, you're done studying ethics. Maybe Chidi's lessons will lead to questioning the points system, which will turn out to be blasphemy, which will get Michael more interested.

If they get caught sending Mindy cocaine now, it'd be proof that the reboot didn't work. They'd've had to send it before the fake reboot to avoid suspicion. Now that I think of it, they could've sent cocaine after any of the other 15 trips to the Medium Place, but they didn't. They do deserve to be in the Bad Place.

[Diadem]

Spoilers for S02E06 (7 for some) : Janet and Michael.

Spoiler:

Very interesting episode. Janet is such an awesome character.

So this episode confirms that Janets ordinarily can't lie, which we already suspected but now know for certain. And we learn that Michael lied to Janet about who he is and what they were doing. So at least initially Janet really thought they were building a good place. So she wasn't lying when she told the humans that they were in the good place, she was just misinformed.

It's not very clear to me whether she still thinks that. At one point Michael mentions that the plan is to take the humans to 'the actual good place'. That implies that Janet knows this is not the bad place, but at the same time he's making confessions about having lied to her. So that's kind of confusing.

Awesome episode though. I've said it before but this show keeps going in unexpected directions.

[Pfhorrest]

Spoiler:

I didn't think that Michael was confessing to Janet in this episode, since I thought she already was in on the big secret. Rather he was just remorsefully relating how (he thought) his big lie to her from the very beginning (that she already knows about now) was causing her malfunction. It's like learning a friend has a grave illness and then realizing and remorsefully commenting on how a thing you did that they already know about must be the cause of that illness.

[maybeagnostic]

How have people watched S02E07 already? Aren't there still a few days before it airs?

Anyway, spoilers up to E06.

Re the points system

Spoiler:

I honestly thought the points system was one of the biggest hints to the big twist at the end of season 1. It seems perfectly designed as a torture tool and I can't wrap my mind around how something this simplistic and reductionist might actually be "real".

Similarly the stark divide between a Good Place where you are always happy and comfortable and a Bad Place where you are always in pain and misery seems absurd. Do the people in the actual Good Place know that the Bad Place exists? If so, what kind of good person can exist in eternal bliss knowing 99% of humanity is subject to unceasing torment?

Re relative merits

Spoiler:

The way I see it, Tahani and Chidi are worse people than Eleanor and Jason, they just don't realize it. Eleanor was clearly an ass in life but she was never close enough to anyone to really ruin their life. Jason is just not bright enough to do anything truly bad or even to understand why the things he does are bad. Meanwhile Tahani is just as selfish as Eleanor but she honestly believes she is a good person that deserves praise and respect; we never see or hear her talk about any friends or even permanent acquaintances so its pretty clear people found her toxic and cut her out of their lives even quicker than they did with Eleanor.

Chidi is the only one of the four that seems to have seriously hurt people. He had close friends that really liked him but his indecision and inability to consider their feelings and needs while lost in the big picture must have been very painful to deal with. I can certainly imagine that was more painful for them to deal with than it was for the random strangers or acquaintances to accept the fact that Eleanor was an unrepentant asshole.

Theory for what the S2 twist will be

Spoiler:

Pretty sure we are about to find out they are all in Purgatory (whether Michael knows it or not). We have these 4 very flawed people who are, however, open to learning and improving themselves and the kind of bad things they did just seem really minor- the worst adjective I might use to describe them is selfish. As for the "torture", as much as stress and confronting your own shortcomings is unpleasant, it really doesn't rank up there with intense physical pain or devastating psychological trauma.

So now Michael unveils that with a lot of hard work, self-improvement, time and effort they can get into The Good Place. Isn't that exactly what Purgatory is?

Spoiler:

Does anyone find it really strange they didn't get their memories back? Without their memories from Season 1 this all seems like it will be bizarrely repetitious and now we are in this bizarre position where we know much much more than the characters.

[Zohar]

As previously discussed, episode numbers can be a bit confusing depending on which source you're looking at. The episode "Janet and Michael" (6th airing of the show this season, but because the first episode was twice as long could be considered 7th episode) aired October 26th.

In any case, your theory may be right, I wouldn't be too surprised if that's the case. I keep being confused by the point system as well.

[Pfhorrest]

Regarding the points system (no spoilers, just discussing the general concept here from a first-episode perspective), from the very first episode on I've been screaming in my head at Chidi wondering how a professor of ethics can just shrug and accept this absurdly reductionist farce of a pretense of moral judgement. I've only got a BA in philosophy and right off the bat I was having to recite the MST3K mantra to myself to not be upset at the presentation of such a thing as objectively correct. How are these numbers calculated? Even broad strokes questions: is it fundamentally areatic, deontological, consequentialist? Don't tell me "it's just infallible and perfect now shut up and don't ask questions". How could a philosophy professor possibly be happy being told that something like that is just how the universe works without questioning it?

Oh and also basic theological problems like who the hell designed a cosmos where almost everyone will be tortured for all eternity and are we just going to sit here in the afterlife and let them get away with that without even thinking about if there's something we could do about it?

[cephalopod9]

I've only got a BA in philosophy and right off the bat I was having to recite the MST3K mantra to myself to not be upset at the presentation of such a thing as objectively correct. How are these numbers calculated? Even broad strokes questions: is it fundamentally areatic, deontological, consequentialist? Don't tell me "it's just infallible and perfect now shut up and don't ask questions". How could a philosophy professor possibly be happy being told that something like that is just how the universe works without questioning it?

They've definitely been inconsistent with that particular thread. I mean, obviously

Spoiler:

he's not happy, but it's a bit of a "when it's plot convenient" character trait. It also isn't super clear what actually true and what's part of the illusion. Are the points tied to memory? Eleanor gained a whole bunch in season one by ... giving up and leaving for the bad place.

The first season moved a bit slow for me, and I didn't quite get the hype. Second season has picked up, gotten a little more complex, and there's been good comedy bits through out.
I still feel like it's both overthinking, and underthinking it's premise.

Spoiler:

The overthinking is also just Micheal being creative, when the place doesn't need to be that complicated.
Under thnking because world building an afterlife, and all it's implications is a huge undertaking for a half hour sitcom. How omniscient and how omnipotent are the architects, and their bosses?
Also, the message of the show can veer a little close to "blond women should never, ever face consequences".

Re relative merits

Spoiler:

The way I see it, Tahani and Chidi are worse people than Eleanor and Jason, they just don't realize it. Eleanor was clearly an ass in life but she was never close enough to anyone to really ruin their life. Jason is just not bright enough to do anything truly bad or even to understand why the things he does are bad. Meanwhile Tahani is just as selfish as Eleanor but she honestly believes she is a good person that deserves praise and respect; we never see or hear her talk about any friends or even permanent acquaintances so its pretty clear people found her toxic and cut her out of their lives even quicker than they did with Eleanor.

Spoiler:

Eleanor sold fake cancer drugs! Dante put those shenanigans in the second lowest circle of hell. Off the top of my head, she also humiliated her friend, publicly, and for profit, and stole from and cheated multiple relatives. You're pointing out Tahani's intentions, but Jason's lack of effects. Eleanor tried to do bad things for bad reasons, and succeeded in doing bad things.

I do kind of wonder if

Spoiler:

these 4 are tough cases in terms of The Bad Place. Chidi takes "Needles!" pretty well in stride when he thinks it's for a good cause, Jason is too clueless, and Eleanor seems likely to scam her way out of things. Maybe Tahani is good at lying to herself.
Did they set out any kind of external measure of the torture's effectiveness?

[SecondTalon]

How have people watched S02E07 already? Aren't there still a few days before it airs

Production numbers, writers, self-identification all show the double-time season premier was two distinct episodes.

Star Trek:TNG's episode All Good Things is another example of this phenomenon of two different episodes that are pretty much nonsense when not viewed as a single, yet they're distinct.

And re: your points system spoiler.

You just described American Christianity. That's what they believe. And they're fine with it.

[Diadem]

Just found out there won't be any new episodes until January. Now I'm sad

Well at least we can spend the time arguing about how the number the episodes. That should keep us busy

Anyway, Netflix is advertising this show as a Netflix Original. I just found out they are straight up lying about this. The show is originally from NBC. Turns out there's quite a few shows where Netflix is straight up lying about it being originally theirs. Ridiculous that they get away with that.

[Angua]

Anyway, Netflix is advertising this show as a Netflix Original. I just found out they are straight up lying about this. The show is originally from NBC. Turns out there's quite a few shows where Netflix is straight up lying about it being originally theirs. Ridiculous that they get away with that.

Yeah, I've found this too. Maybe they are partially funding them? It's really weird.

[SecondTalon]

These television shows, even though Netflix lists them as Netflix originals, are shows that have been aired in different countries, and Netflix has bought exclusive distribution rights to stream them in other various countries. They may be available on Netflix in their home territory and other markets where Netflix does not have the first run license, without the Netflix Original label, some time after their first-run airing on their original broadcaster.

If y'alls Netflix are showing Season 2... you're showing what American Netflix is not. That just has Season 1.

[eran_rathan]

Season 2 is on Hulu (for those who have it).

[Zohar]

Season 2 finale just ended. This is such a satisfying show to watch, I'm so glad they're doing a third season as well.

Thoughts re: the episode

Spoiler:

I get why Michael was technically cheating according to the original rules him and Gen set up for this new test, but much like everything else in the afterlife rules - it's unfair. We haven't seen anyone else's new earthly lives, but for Eleanor, to expect to suddenly become better after suffering a lifetime of abuse, lack of trust, protectiveness, and closeness, was unreasonable. The question would undoubtedly come up next season, but Eleanor really needs and deserves a bit more help.

[Pfhorrest]

I'm just really glad that someone finally said

Spoiler:

"maybe this system isn't good or fair or just after all"

like I've been clamoring for since episode 1. I'm still disappointed that it wasn't Chidi... and it wasn't immediately, back on episode 1. C'mon man, you're an ethics professor, surely something about this raises red flags for you?

[Isaac Hill]

Season 2 finale

Spoiler:

I get why Michael was technically cheating according to the original rules him and Gen set up for this new test, but much like everything else in the afterlife rules - it's unfair. We haven't seen anyone else's new earthly lives, but for Eleanor, to expect to suddenly become better after suffering a lifetime of abuse, lack of trust, protectiveness, and closeness, was unreasonable. The question would undoubtedly come up next season, but Eleanor really needs and deserves a bit more help.

Chidi did seem more confident and assertive during what we saw of his speech, and attempt to stand by his office hours, than during the rest of the show. I'd guess that his self-improvement is going OK.

Elanor's self-improvement was going OK until Dress Bitch threw her out, and Fake Whiplash sued her, causing her to rethink whether being good was working out. I wonder if that's related to the original in-universe justification for the ratings system. That given enough time, like eternity, interactions with even mildly shitty people will eventually cause good people to be unhappy. The only way for good people to enjoy the Good Place for long is to be very selective about who they spend their endless time with.

[Tyndmyr]

Spoiler:

Elanor's self-improvement was going OK until Dress Bitch threw her out, and Fake Whiplash sued her, causing her to rethink whether being good was working out. I wonder if that's related to the original in-universe justification for the ratings system. That given enough time, like eternity, interactions with even mildly shitty people will eventually cause good people to be unhappy. The only way for good people to enjoy the Good Place for long is to be very selective about who they spend their endless time with.

Season 2:

Spoiler:

That seems likely to come up at some point, and in fairness, it seems pretty open and shut that these four would cause some measure of grief to good people. If they DO manage to finally get to the real Good Place, they're likely to open up entirely new cans of worms. Hell, even Janet might be out of place there now.

Super enthused for Season 3, I don't often see a show do this much worldbuilding and still keep the audience guessing in a good way.

[Isaac Hill]

Chapter 27 & Chapter 28 - This premiere was less exciting that the Good Place usually is. I understand why it had to be this way, but I doubt I'll rewatch this hour.

Spoiler:

Season 2 started with 800+ reboots in, I think, 22 minutes. They established the premise, got some great jokes out of it, and moved on to the next plot twist. Here, we spent 45 minutes getting the group back together, which we knew had to happen going in.

Elanor's segment was a recap of the Season 2 finale, from Michael's POV. But, all we larned about the afterlife was the doorman likes frogs, and the Bad Place uses CRTs.

Chidi's segment was interesting, but not all that funny.

Tahani's segment was the weakest. Tahani annoying other characters by name dropping every few minutes can be amusing. Tahani name dropping by herself for several minutes is legitimately annoying, The only thing I really liked was Michael's ponytail while saving Tahani.

Jason's segment was pretty great, and I think the only part of this comedy show that actually made me laugh. Plus, Jason taking his role as leader of Dance Dance Resolution seriously was actually reasonable character growth. Tahani chucking it all to become a monk was over the top. Chidi picking a muffin wasn't enough. I guess he also picked a thesis, but did we ever learn what that was?

I'm looking forward to learning about the "ripples" Michael mentioned when talking to the doorman about alternate timelines.