Secret Santa 2017 Endgame - Merry Christmas

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Liri
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Liri » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:57 pm UTC

Okay, since Bessie insists:

Town
Jimbobmacdoodle
plytho
Bessie
Somitomi
Wam
Madge
Sabrar
Suzaku
Moody
Scum
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby plytho » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:04 pm UTC

Suzaku wrote:If I had to vote now I'd vote wam, but since I don't I'm going to read more and wait for some (hopefully enlightening) results.

What do you mean by "wait for results"? Will you provide a town-to-scum by the end of that hour?
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby moody7277 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:07 pm UTC

Thank you for your sympathy bessie. I probably would have gone with the plan of using it and then explaining what happened D2 except for my experience in 2015. I still could have since that was a randomizing role whereas this has an algorithm to it.

I'm looking at Liri's list and I'm going :? . Me at the bottom is all too common. Sabrar and Suzaku (who is just getting into the game) at the bottom is what's confusing.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Liri » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:12 pm UTC

I almost qualified it, but I felt I had better reads on other people to put them higher, as opposed to particularly scummy reads on you and Suzaku.
There's a certain amount of freedom involved in cycling: you're self-propelled and decide exactly where to go. If you see something that catches your eye to the left, you can veer off there, which isn't so easy in a car, and you can't cover as much ground walking.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:32 pm UTC

In case anyone forgot, wam wants to ignore all non-SK indies. That perspective is very much indicative of scum.

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Vote: wam

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:45 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:In case anyone forgot, wam wants to ignore all non-SK indies. That perspective is very much indicative of scum.

Unvote
Vote: wam


You were already voting for me?
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:46 pm UTC

plytho wrote:
Suzaku wrote:If I had to vote now I'd vote wam, but since I don't I'm going to read more and wait for some (hopefully enlightening) results.

What do you mean by "wait for results"? Will you provide a town-to-scum by the end of that hour?


This flagged me as well and would like an answer as well.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Suzaku » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:57 pm UTC

Simple typo, meant to say 'responses'.
Sorry - year-end brain.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:01 pm UTC

wam wrote:You were already voting for me?
I know.

BTW we have evidence that Suzaku is scum, just need to compare the following two snippets (first is from Shakespeare III):
LaserGuy wrote:Let's start with the most important questions first: Who are you and what have you done with bessie? Is there a ransom that needs to be paid? Does her family know? Her dog?

Suzaku wrote:What have you been smoking and where can I get some?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby plytho » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:03 pm UTC

Suzaku wrote:Simple typo, meant to say 'responses'.
Sorry - year-end brain.
What responses are you waiting for? You only asked one question.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:22 pm UTC

Current votals:

wam (2) - Sabrar, moody7277
Madge (3) - wam, jimbobmacdoodle, bessie

Not voting: somitomi, Liri, Madge, plytho, Suzaku

Reminder that tied votes result in a No Lynch.

Deadline in 23 hours.

Please remember that any night actions you have need to be submitted before the end of day.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby plytho » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:03 pm UTC

vote: wam

I don't think Madge is scum and I think wam might be.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:23 pm UTC

@Suzaku: what is your opinion on the other players?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:02 pm UTC

So this is my last chance to put a long post in before deadline. I will able to phone post though.

Sabrar wrote:In case anyone forgot, wam wants to ignore all non-SK indies. That perspective is very much indicative of scum.



Yeah I did not fully see their effect on town, especially at lylo. But I still believe D1, ignoring indies is the way forward. I find indy hunting to be an easy way to appear to scum hunt when scum. When looking at voting patterns . I also feel that thevforum meta has changed since I played to be more anti indy than I am used to.

So I wanted to get thoughts down on everyone so went back and did a re-read, looking for anything that stood out.

Bessie - Town

So general impression is town, same posting style content etc as in werewolf. One question.

bessie wrote:[I…really? :shock: I already said in this thread I was busy this week. I feel like I want to argue this but what would I argue? And I know from past experience it is worthless arguing with you when you make this type of meta read anyway, and it is a meta read. But I’m going to add this to my bessie notes for the future.


Why would you need to add it too notes if it is a correct call? I am a bit confused by this.

Jimbob - Town

Nothing stood out to me on re-read. I like his posts, publishing reads that makes sense, pushing people for content etc.

Liri - Town with some supsicouns

All the initial posts come off as newbie town to me. The BS reads slip is a bad one but as a newbie I think it isn't as bad.

@Liri you said you would cast a tie breaking vote if needed, as it is currently a tie between me and madge who is your choice?

Madge - scum

I still find the resetting meta point scummy as I and Liri have pointed out, why not just do it. The town to scum list I have issues with as well, as mentioned. Putting the list together with so many caveats doesn't help and then choosing moody from the middle is odd.

@ Madge you said you wouldn't vote D1, does that also apply if your one of the options?
Also you said if we have a lot of deaths overnight we will end up in lylo, what makes you think we could have lots of deaths overnight?

Moody - scum

Put madge and me as the option is focusing on me based on pushing for details of the power. Could be distancing from madge.
@ Moody if I wasn't a lynch option who is your 2nd choice is it still madge?
Also I have made several posts stating that I thought you were offering more details and said you should just stop beating around the bush. This is a point you have failed to respond to.

I still suspect the claim as a scum gambit. He probably is a re director but i doubt a town one.

Plytho

Bit light on content early in D1, more recently. The reads lists make sense and are well drafted. Gt a bit bogged down in the argument with moody but I see that as a town tell as

One question you say

plytho wrote:I don't think Madge is scum and I think wam might be.


Who else would be in contention?

Sabrar - Indy

Where do I start. All the initial posts were rather random. And according to those who know his meta rather odd. I agree with bessie (I think it was), that there are some serious points in the waffle but they get lost in all the random. As I have stated before, not being willing to make cases is not a town friendly move. Definitely tunneling me.

@Sabrar I think a reads list of everyone would be useful information. As well you have been pushed multiple times to back up your madge town read and not provided anything that could be construed as an argument.

Somi Slightly scummy

First off I realised I never answered this question
somitomi wrote:
wam wrote:@moody given this is sabrar' s reason for voting me. I was wondering if you would care to give an explanation. Or link to one if I have missed it.

Did I miss something? What are you asking for here? And why are you asking moody about Sabrar's explanation?
r.


I was asking if moody wanted to explain his rational for voting me, given at the time Sabrar had not provided one

The fact that the above was not chased up is interesting but probably forgot (I have done that in the past). Content is very light, It looks even worse than I thought when viewed in isolation. I went back to the FAID game and content was higher in that one when he was town. Werewolf (other game I have played with somi) doesn't help as he got replaced D1.

@ Somi I think you said 4 games prior to this have you been scum in any of them?

Suzaku

First of I am not taking reads either way from when MAven was playing. His replacement post I think clearly demonstrated he had'nt read any of the thread. I will also say I know replacing in is hard, In the past I never seemed to get up to speed when replacing. The lynch candidates question makes sense to me based on the timing of replacing in.

@suzaku is your madge town read purely based on meta? I also agree this is a good question from Sabrar

Sabrar wrote:@Suzaku: what is your opinion on the other players?


So after all that

Town
Jimbob
Plytho
Bessie
Liri
Suzaku
Sabrar
Somi
Moody
Madge
Scum

I had forgotten how long a full re-read takes! Also we have a lot more content than normal for D1 which is a good thing. Although I think Sabrar and I can claim half the posts in the thread!

My vote stays where it is.

PS off topic, in response to this.

Sabrar wrote:I get to say I told you so.


If I do get lynched my post tomorrow will be

@ Sabrar I told you I was town
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:17 pm UTC

PS if it gets to it tomorrow I am willing to claim but given its secret santa I don't think it will help (too many possibilities).
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:24 pm UTC

wam wrote:As well you have been pushed multiple times to back up your madge town read and not provided anything that could be construed as an argument.
My argument is fully articulated here. It's based on what I observed from Madge across multiple games. You can look here and here to see some of the effort I put into into getting that read.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:27 pm UTC

EBWOP: I've already provided my ordered list and updated it multiple times. Also provided reasons for most of those.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:40 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
wam wrote:As well you have been pushed multiple times to back up your madge town read and not provided anything that could be construed as an argument.
My argument is fully articulated here. It's based on what I observed from Madge across multiple games. You can look here and here to see some of the effort I put into into getting that read.


Ok I accept it is a meta read. Now that you have highlighted the read in crossover do you not think that would make it invalid here?

Sabrar wrote:EBWOP: I've already provided my ordered list and updated it multiple times. Also provided reasons for most of those.


I went back through you have one read list I found. I agree your suspicions have been updated but without a list it's hard to put them in context.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:49 pm UTC

wam wrote:Ok I accept it is a meta read. Now that you have highlighted the read in crossover do you not think that would make it invalid here?
I never said it was the same meta-read as it's not (which should be evident from context).

TOWN
bessie
Liri
Madge
jimbob
plytho
moody
somitomi
Suzaku
wam
SCUM

Depending on my actual mood I might move moody and/or jimbob up a bit.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:53 pm UTC

wam wrote:Although I think Sabrar and I can claim half the posts in the thread!
Just realized that if I lynch you I will have noone to talk to...
Oh well, time to be a team-player. :D

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:03 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:1- Madge writes stream-of-conciousness and probably rarely bothers to edit before hitting submit. Her talking about how she wants to change her meta and what she would have done as scum is not wine, it's just Madge being herself.
2 - I've addressed Madge not voting in Crossover already, that's not a tell. I mean you should be fully aware of this, especially after Crossover.
3 - Basically I believe that this was truly her plan and this didn't occur to her.


I have added numbers to the above to make my points easier to explain.

1. As I stated earlier I can't see the logic. If you wanted to change meta the easiest thing would be to do it rather than talk about it.

2. Given you highlighted Madge not scum hunting/voting d1 as a town tell in crossover the last thing scum Madge would do d1 in the next game is vote d1. I still think not voting d1 is scummy as votes are a good source of information. *

3. For the first point see my response one in the logic. And I disagree on point 2 Madge has been playing long enough for it to occur to her.

*I will admit this may be influenced by my views as I think towns best source of information (not including results) are vote patterns, reactions etc.

Sabrar wrote:
wam wrote:Although I think Sabrar and I can claim half the posts in the thread!
Just realized that if I lynch you I will have noone to talk to...
Oh well, time to be a team-player. :D


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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:17 pm UTC

Updated Madge re-read, as promised. Post-by-post breakdown, with added commentary is in the spoiler:
Spoiler:
Post 1 - Excited confirmation post, and clarification on claiming submitted/receiving roles. Madge is usually pretty excited about Mafia in general (although less so D1), so no issues here.
Post 2 - Random votes plytho. I don't remember if Madge is usually one to random vote, and don't have time to go digging into past games. The last game aside from Crossover that Madge played from the start was Shakespeare 3, I think, and there was very little random voting (and Madge didn't do any that game).
Post 3 - Sick. Rebooting meta. Likes Sabrar enthusiasm. Expects two mafia, modified abilities for balance. Useless ability would make good fake claim. Might well be lots of town roleblockers. I already made my point about the rebooting meta comment potentially an attempt at a smokescreen to hide any change in style. I acknowledge that town!Madge could have chosen to do this. The "good fake claim" comment is weird, but I don't see as being alignment-indicative.
Post 4 - Thinks that danger of roles affects peoples responses to claims. Null.
Post 5 - Stated being ill so that people "knew to excuse any brain farts". On the basis of RL stuff should be 100% truthful, I am treating it as null. Otherwise, this comment could easily be more "ignore anything silly I do, it's just because I'm ill, and not at all because I'm scum" (see also the rebooting meta points).
Post 6 - Reads lists aren't useful for own personal use. Better players may communicate through them better. Will make them if instructed, or if organising own thoughts better. Not inherently scummy. Read lists from flip townies give good opinions to consider. Most of this post is null stand-alone.
Post 7 - Impressed by my content. Doesn't disagree with my comments. Sabrar is being enthusiastic/having fun. Pushing moody for reads when content is light was a bit much. Wine-filled comment about putting points in the bank, regarding meta, and would have claimed early as scum.
Post 8 - Responds to Sabrar's comment about her scum plan. Doesn't understand why it was a bad idea. General comment about being surprised by new and nifty roles. There's nothing particularly useful in this post, either way. The refusal to engage in a strategy discussion is not alignment-indicative, based on past experience.
Post 9 - Wary of redirectors. May be better off not using it. Others might though. Unsure about mass-redirectors. Less scum knows the better. Advises to give best shot and claim tomorrow. Does a (self-claimed super-biased) town-scum list, despite acknowledging she hates them, because it might be helpful. Has Sabrar and Liri as top town, wam, plytho scummiest. Caveats list with extremes being neutral-slightly townie to neutral-slightly scummy. I'm not sure what to make of this list. She has Sabrar as top-townie for defending her, plytho second-scummiest as for reading into the flavour before mod confirmed that it was irrelevant.
Post 10 - Would vote for moody. Doesn't intend to vote D1, as usual. Moody power sounds like a headache, and better gone. I'm confused by this opinion. Although her previous list was supposedly a gut read, both her reads on plytho and bessie could be argued to have perfectly reasonable reasons to offer a vote there. However, she chooses moody, because he claimed a power that might be confusing. Assuming it's town-controlled, that power could be equally as confusing for scum, which is obviously for town's gain (heck, depending on exactly how moody's role works, if he is town, it could result in scum hitting themselves).
Post 11 - Unvotes RVS.
Post 12 - Defends reason for picking moody, by saying she looked at her reads list critically, and came up with reasons for none of the rest of them to be scum. Lynching moody and losing his power would not be a big town loss. D2 many people might claim, depending on how things go tonight. Likes that moody decided to act, because it makes her feel better about her meta. Not being able to trust night results means we should be aware of it, and it will discourage scum gambits. The explanation for her moody vote-choice here makes a fair amount of sense, but without an updated list, it's hard to know where she really stands.
It's been 48 hours since Madge's last post:

Requesting prod on Madge

Madge's content makes it pretty tricky to determine where she stands on things. She essentially threw away her ordered list, with her comments about voting moody, and her subsequent explanation. As such, I'd like to see an updated list from her. I've used the "lynching this player is not a big loss for town" reason before, but (as far as I remember) never as the sole or even main reason to lynch a specific player. Losing any town power-role is a loss for town, so there needs to actually be some evidence that they are scum (especially if there are other possible candidates). From what I can tell, Madge's sole reason to lynch moody is because of his power, despite liking the fact that he claimed it. Stand-alone, this isn't a townie reason. For all we know, there could be far worse powers out there potentially in the hands of scum, so we could be better off actually trying to lynch anybody except moody.

As for meta-related posting style, I don't see anything in Madge's play that couldn't come from scum!Madge, any more than town!Madge, especially given the recent discussion about how clear her meta supposedly is. Claiming what she would have done as scum could just as easily come from scum!Madge as town!Madge.

@Madge - aside from what moody has claimed, do you have any reason for considering voting moody? Who do you currently believe is scum? What do you think of Sabrar's play today? Do you still think it comes from town!Sabrar?

Summary: I really don't see anything that particularly shouts town!Madge, and plenty of things that shout scum, even taking into account the D1 reluctance that Madge usually shows.

@Sabrar - My vote stands, unless you have some non-meta evidence that Madge is town, that you are willing to reveal now. All your arguments for town!Madge boil down to meta points, which may be irrelevant, because Madge herself claimed she was trying to change her meta this game, and as you yourself said, meta tells become void once revealed (you revealed them in Crossover, so arguably all your town tells on Madge should be void, by your own logic). What are your thoughts on Madge's reads list, and her subsequent statement that she'd vote moody, rather than the three people scummier in her list? What about her reasoning for why she'd vote moody?

Ninja'ed by wam and Sabrar. On point 1 in Sabrar's points, I don't see why stream-of-consciousness Madge couldn't just as easily post what she posted as scum. On point 2, I'm not treating the not voting as a tell at all. But saying who she would vote on the other hand is still useful information (even if she doesn't follow it up). On point 3, scum!Madge could have thought about that plan then decided not to follow it for whatever reason, but used it as a wine-soaked defence.

Oh, and wam, you missed out a town/scum label for plytho. Care to correct that?
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:18 pm UTC

@wam: from a general point of view you would be absolutely correct. What you (and others) fail to take into account is the individual factor. You cannot apply the same arguments for everyone.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby moody7277 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:22 pm UTC

wam wrote:@ Moody if I wasn't a lynch option who is your 2nd choice is it still madge?


Since she's the other wagon, I read her posts in isolation

Madge

Spoiler:
post 1: opening post. personal clarification of no claim rule.
post 2: RV plytho
post 3:
I'm trying to reboot my meta so I am going to have to think of something to say d1 apart from dropping hints based on my role :lol: which is harder than you'd think.


This is the first statement that piqued interest. Managing one's own meta seems to be a deceptive thing to do, especially since hers is not particularly scummy (wrt mine, I have learned to stop worrying and love the bomb).

post 4: discussion of various roles and claiming thereof. " rather than say a roleblocker or a redirector that would make people suspicious of what they could do as mischief,"

Little did she know. :lol:

post 5: RL issue
post 6: discussion with Liri re lists. She comes down on the side of useful in some cases but not personally helpful

This is the other point on trying to manage your own meta, it doesn't work very well. You develop playing habits over a time, and unless you're paying very close attention to them (like you'd do if scum), you slide back into them, as she is doing here.

post 7: response to jimbob making detailed snap judgements and his interpretation of her comment on meta
post 8: response to Sabrar on her "if I were scum" comment from post 7.
post 9: response to my mass redirector claim, with fairly comprehensive ideas about it. town to scum list that looks a bit odd (plytho and bessie next to wam at the bottom?)
post 10: says she'd vote me if she were going to vote.

With three people below me on her (self-admitedly shaky) list, this seems odd

post 11: removes RV with awful pun

super scummy :P

post 12: responds to plytho pointing out what I did about her post 10 by saying that "well, his power could cause mischief, so no great loss". Also appreciates my behavior regarding claiming and using my role because it makes her feel like less of a ditz.

Part 1 of this is really bad. I can recall a couple of games I wanted someone lynched because they had an annoying role, and it bit me in the butt.

Conclusion: her wanting to change up her meta, and making several statements bringing attention to it is suspicious. posts 9, 10, & 12 together also look suspicious. She looks very lynchable.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Peaceful Whale » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:22 pm UTC

Madge has been prodded.

With a very long stick.
My meta for future reference
Spoiler:
cemper93 wrote:Your meta appears to be "just writes whatever is on his mind and doesn't remember what happened more than five hours ago"

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:23 pm UTC

@jimbob: I'll reply tomorrow.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:26 pm UTC

@ jimbob

plytho - town

List does cover it.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Liri » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:19 am UTC

wam wrote:@Liri you said you would cast a tie breaking vote if needed, as it is currently a tie between me and madge who is your choice?

I don't think either of you are particularly likely to be scum. If I had to choose between you, I'd vote for Madge, if only because she hasn't been as active.

Moody, Sabrar, Suzaku (a stretch, not much to go on), or Somitomi (also not much to go on) I would feel more comfortable voting for.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Madge » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 am UTC

This is a real quick post so I don't get replaced :shock: Likely a busy work day ahead of me and then a concert tonight (ugh, husband making me go) so you will have to wait another 24 hours for much more than this. (Well shoot just checked the deadline - I'm a writeoff until the deadline, Mabe another few posts during the work day if I can squeeze them in, we'll see)

@liri:
> Talking openly about resetting her meta I get as a bit off; like, why not just do it?

Because if I "just did it" people would probably give me crap for not doing my usual "trying to offer hints based on my role pm" schtick. Can't win! The whole wagon on me gives me a bad taste in my mouth but can't do much about it. (I mean seriously, if being... like he is now was Sabrar's new neta he was cultivating, he's getting a ton of attention for it!)

@moody:
I think you should use your power. If you're killed in the night we just have one set of confusing results. If you're not killed in the night you can use it to catch people in the act and if nobody gets caught in the act you can confirm stuff. The problemw ould be is if e.g. cop got a townie result and so wouldn't claim that D2, you die N2, cop doesn't know if their townie result is good or not. But I suppose at the end of D2 you can say who you redirected so the cop would know. IT would require you to full claim your ability (wait, if full role PM is revealed after death you can just say who your targets were in such a way that we can piece it together from your role PM - though there's risk if scum submitted your role)

Are scum allowed to discuss the role they submitted with each other?

(guess the answer is no but we'll see)

Sabrar wrote:@jimbob: Madge is not the criminal mastermind bessie believes her to be.


:( i have my moments from time to time though this game is not one of them (c.f. Ghost I mafia, Batman/Joker Assassins Game Whatever it Was Called)

@jimbob
> @Madge - aside from what moody has claimed, do you have any reason for considering voting moody? Who do you currently believe is scum? What do you think of Sabrar's play today? Do you still think it comes from town!Sabrar?

Claimed moody was my most votable because he was the venn diagram of "unbiased scummy read" and "power not biggest loss for town". I currently think wam is scum but I suspect that's my own biases OMGUsing it, but then again his obsession with me is kind of weird. Sabrar has been odd but I think he's just having fun with the game; wine-wise I don't think scum sabrar would be so weird.

@wam
> you said you wouldn't vote D1, does that also apply if your one of the options?

Of course not, come on I'm not stupid!!!

vote: wam

Self defense.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:43 am UTC

Madge wrote:Are scum allowed to discuss the role they submitted with each other?


Yes

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Madge » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:02 am UTC

:shock:

That................ was not the answer I was expecting not by a long shot. It gives scum a HUGE advantage because they will probably know at least 3 roles that are in the game (probably even 4 - 2 they're given and 2 they submitted - assuming a 2 person scum team which seems the safe assumption)

Are there any other rules in the opening thread that scum are not bound by?

Like honestly i'm floored that this bold, giant rule does not apply to scum:

10. You may not, under any circumstances, claim the name, flavor or abilities of the role that you submitted. Please do not attempt to circumvent this rule (e.g. mass claiming "I did not submit a cop" is not acceptable). Violators will suffer severe penalties. Claiming your received role is fine as long as you do not directly quote from the PM.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Peaceful Whale » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:24 am UTC


Are there any other rules in the opening thread that scum are not bound by?

Technically Standard Rule #1, as they have a chat QuickTopic.

Standard Rule #6, they may quote their rule PM in their QuickTopic.

That’s all to my knowledge, but they’re pretty self explanatory.
My meta for future reference
Spoiler:
cemper93 wrote:Your meta appears to be "just writes whatever is on his mind and doesn't remember what happened more than five hours ago"

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby bessie » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:15 am UTC

Sabrar wrote: I get to say I told you so.
I…don’t…even.

Sabrar wrote:- Madge writes stream-of-conciousness and probably rarely bothers to edit before hitting submit. Her talking about how she wants to change her meta and what she would have done as scum is not wine, it's just Madge being herself.
- I've addressed Madge not voting in Crossover already, that's not a tell. I mean you should be fully aware of this, especially after Crossover.
- Basically I believe that this was truly her plan and this didn't occur to her.
You’re using the argument that Madge is trying to change her meta, but then you point to something she always does as a town tell? I am aware that Madge doesn’t like D1 and she doesn’t always vote on D1. She makes a point to inform us of this in every game. I’m not saying it is a Madge!town tell or a Madge!scum tell, I’m saying it’s in general anti town. I’ve been needling Liri over voting, using this argument:
bessie wrote:Liri, it’s important for townies to vote, or scum can control the lynch. This comment implies that you don’t really have an opinion on who is scum and who is town, or you don’t care. Like you won't commit to a read, but you do care about making sure that you’re available to decide the lynch.
I think that if I’m going to needle Liri over this (and somitmi next) that it is reasonable for me to needle Madge over it too.

Liri wrote:Okay, since Bessie insists
So, were you planning on making that list if I didn’t ask? And Liri, it looks like the votals may be close, you should vote.

wam wrote:Why would you need to add it too notes if it is a correct call? I am a bit confused by this.
I need to add to my notes that Sabrar has a meta read on me for something I didn’t do, so in future games regardless of my alignment I need to always do that thing or never do that thing, so that he is unable to use it as a meta read. Thus proving the old adage that any tell becomes void once public exactly because it can be faked.

Sabrar wrote:Just realized that if I lynch you I will have noone to talk to...
I’m sorry Sabrar if I’m around on D2 my content will pick up, as soon as I recover from that viscous dog attack. He knows what he did.
Spoiler:
guilty hoku.jpg
guilty hoku.jpg (67.22 KiB) Viewed 1301 times
Oh, and there’s the small matter of five nonconformances from the registrar, but that should be no problem. I’ll be able to churn those out in no time…. :(

Liri wrote:
wam wrote:@Liri you said you would cast a tie breaking vote if needed, as it is currently a tie between me and madge who is your choice?

I don't think either of you are particularly likely to be scum. If I had to choose between you, I'd vote for Madge, if only because she hasn't been as active.

Moody, Sabrar, Suzaku (a stretch, not much to go on), or Somitomi (also not much to go on) I would feel more comfortable voting for.
Well then why don’t you? You’ve got 12 hours. If you’re going to vote you should do it soon.

Madge wrote:This is a real quick post so I don't get replaced :shock:
Not a real quick post because contributing to the game is a townie thing to do?

Madge wrote: That................ was not the answer I was expecting not by a long shot. It gives scum a HUGE advantage because they will probably know at least 3 roles that are in the game (probably even 4 - 2 they're given and 2 they submitted - assuming a 2 person scum team which seems the safe assumption)
Madge, the possibility has been mentioned before.
plytho wrote:A thought on available knowledge:
Most townies are aware of 3 roles in the game now (submitted, received, moody’s)
Scum may know up to 5 roles in the game at this point.(2 sumbitted, 2 received, moody’s)


Unofficial votals:

wam (4) - Sabrar, moody7277, plytho, Madge
Madge (3) - wam, jimbobmacdoodle, bessie

Not voting: somitomi, Liri, Suzaku

somitomi, the votals are rather close. Are you going to vote?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Madge » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:41 am UTC

Yeah, but when plytho mentioned it I immediately discounted it because I thought it was pretty ridiculous that scum would be allowed to talk about what roles they submitted when we were actively encouraged to "pretend" that the roles weren't submitted at all. The fact it's now confirmed by mods was like "oh wow that's a shock" and then I stream of conscious posted what I was thinking.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby plytho » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:23 am UTC

Madge wrote:Are scum allowed to discuss the role they submitted with each other?

@Madge: what prompted you to ask that question?
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:24 am UTC

@plytho: what prompted you to assume that scum would be able to share?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Madge » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:27 am UTC

I asked the question because I wanted to know if there was a chance that the following could happen:

- Scum A submitted moody's role

- moody redirects and claims who he targeted but not what he did

- Scum A tells Scum B that based on what Scum A submitted, X Y Z was the likely result of the role being used

- Scum A and B then have full information while town does not have full information until moody dies

Scum is already at an advantage because they know everyone's alignment (except a possible indie) so if a cop gets a scum result on a townie they know that there was a swap and can maybe guess who might have been swapped where, but my hypothetical up there is really dangerous, and I was idly wondering if it was possible. I never in a million years thought it was, but I guess that goes to show what I know =/
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby plytho » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:40 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:@plytho: what prompted you to assume that scum would be able to share?
assumptions aren't really prompted but I appreciate your symmetrical question. I was considering the strength of scum in this game with extra role knowledge and assumed scum would be coordinating their actions based on all their available knowledge. I didn't really consider rule 10 applying to scum when I posted that.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby wam » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:48 am UTC

The last post from Madge has me torn. The surprise seemed genuine. However you can see it as a town tell that Madge didn't know or as scum Madge has realised they have missed a source of information.

And Madge obsessed is the wrong word. Most of my posts have been to sabrar! On a serious note I have tried to make sure I comment on all players.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 1 - Carol of the Elves

Postby Sabrar » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:54 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:My vote stands, unless you have some non-meta evidence that Madge is town, that you are willing to reveal now.
I already said I don't.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:you revealed them in Crossover, so arguably all your town tells on Madge should be void, by your own logic).
For the second time I'm not using the same meta-points, the link was just to show wam that I know what I'm talking about.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:What are your thoughts on Madge's reads list, and her subsequent statement that she'd vote moody, rather than the three people scummier in her list? What about her reasoning for why she'd vote moody?
She's being Madge. Yes, I know that's not helpful. I don't care.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:On point 1 in Sabrar's points, I don't see why stream-of-consciousness Madge couldn't just as easily post what she posted as scum.
Her's where we disagree, I think it would take an order of magnitude more effort to produce that content as scum.


bessie wrote:I need to add to my notes that Sabrar has a meta read on me for something I didn’t do, so in future games regardless of my alignment I need to always do that thing or never do that thing, so that he is unable to use it as a meta read.
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