Police misbehavior thread

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6482
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:48 pm UTC

There's a difference between "Greyhound therapy" and people moving of their own accord. If a state makes it policy to export people, then that state bears the responsibility. However, if people simply decide to move to find a better life, well, that's exactly what the United States itself was founded on.

There's a grey area; a state simply not having good opportunities for poor people could be due to many factors, only one of which is to deliberately create a hostile environment for the purpose of driving poor people away.

Split it out? Sure, if the discussion has legs. It is however related to the the idea of helping criminals create a legal better life for themselves as opposed to punishing them. Even if doing so is cheaper, it is seen as rewarding criminal behavior. Expand that idea to "problem people" (whether criminals, the poor, authoritarians and anarchists...) and the general question is whether to beat them down so they stop or go away, or to lift them up so that they can become happy and productive members of society.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

User avatar
ObsessoMom
Nespresso Bomb
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:28 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:56 am UTC

In the long-winded religious ramblings I deleted earlier, I opined that the Calvin-influenced Puritanism that still influences so much of US society views most people as predestined to damnation, so there's no point in trying to redeem them. According to that warped worldview, attempting to recognize and restore the dignity of those in need might even be contrary to God's will.

If you believe that wealth and social status are evidence of God's showering of blessing and grace upon those who please Him, then the poor and despised are poor and despised because God thinks they deserve to be poor and despised. And one can view crime among poor communities as evidence of their inherent depravity. See, they deserve to be miserable. Who are we to interfere with God's justice, by trying to alleviate the suffering of people God Himself is punishing?

Or at least that's the theology that I suspect underpins most "tough on crime" and "don't reward people for sinful behavior" attitudes.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10145
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:44 am UTC

But isn't the logical conclusion of Calvinism that, since there's predestination to heaven and hell, you should do whatever you want because it doesn't matter? And the only response they can muster is a pathetic "well, that's not something someone predestined for heaven would say"?

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26453
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:03 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:So what would be the correct way to distinguish people for the purpose of determining the homeless problem that's a result of Florida's economic situation and social services, versus other states dumping their responsibilities onto Florida because they can?
Most of Florida's tax revenue already comes from people born out of state, so I'm not going to shed any tears for the fuckers if some of it also pays to help people born out of state.
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10145
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:13 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:So what would be the correct way to distinguish people for the purpose of determining the homeless problem that's a result of Florida's economic situation and social services, versus other states dumping their responsibilities onto Florida because they can?
Most of Florida's tax revenue already comes from people born out of state, so I'm not going to shed any tears for the fuckers if some of it also pays to help people born out of state.


By that logic, as Silicon Valley and Hollywood are huge revenue generators dependent upon soaking up people from around the country (and world), California also shouldn't get any sympathy for the other states sending them their homeless.

User avatar
ObsessoMom
Nespresso Bomb
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:28 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:18 am UTC

But California's current batch of homeless people tend not to be imported. They're grown right here.

Older homeowners love the increasing property values that result from voting against new housing developments. (Younger renters tend not to vote in as large numbers as older homeowners do.)

Also, many West Coast homeless became homeless when the recently recovering economy caused a widespread raise in rents, which priced many people out of a roof over their heads. The U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development released a report on homelessness yesterday that bears me out on this.

[Edited to add: I was glad to see the "housing first" approach to addressing chronic homelessness praised in the press release:

Chronic Homelessness

Long-term or chronic homelessness among individuals with disabilities declined 18 percent since 2010. This reduction is due in part to a concerted effort to make available more permanent supportive housing opportunities for people with disabling health conditions who otherwise continually cycle through local shelters or the streets. Research demonstrates that for those experiencing chronic homelessness, providing permanent housing, coupled with appropriate low-barrier supportive services, is the most effective solution for ending homelessness. This ‘housing first’ approach also saves the taxpayer considerable money by interrupting a costly cycle of emergency room and hospital, detox, and even jail visits.

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:53 pm UTC

This conversation brings to mind a movie called the Tokyo Godfathers.

User avatar
Grop
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:36 am UTC
Location: France

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Grop » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:56 pm UTC

Which is funny, because it is based on an american novel.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11346
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:44 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:
11% of adult homeless people in the US are veterans, over 50% of them have disabilities, 50% of them have serious mental illness, 70% of them have substance abuse issues.

Quick googling says that there are 22 million veterans in the US, out of an adult population of 245 million. So it's not even that veterans are extremely more likely to become homeless - it's simply that there are a lot of veterans.


Indeed. And I would wager that serious mental illness, substance abuse problems and disabilities are overrepresented in all homeless, not simply veteran homeless. It's likely straightforward causality there.

CorruptUser wrote:I don't want to remove freedom of movement. I just want Minnesota to pay for all the homeless Minnesotans in Florida.


It is...rather less clear than that. A Minnesotan doesn't plan out homelessness and buy a ticket to Florida. It's a number of much smaller decisions. The homeless Minnesotan might not migrate all the way to Florida himself, but he might move to Chicago. And a Chicagoan moves further south. And it might not be moving solely because of the weather, but with hope of opportunity and what not. Just, yknow, less motivation to return to Minnesota if things don't work out, and it's cold out. It's challenging to distinguish specific people that are not worthy. There are statistical skewings, sure, but it can be less obvious that a specific person is to blame.

CorruptUser wrote:I always thought the homeless vets was exaggerated. Ask any homeless guy and of course he has a sob story. Vets have lots of bonuses when it comes to getting government jobs as well as private sector... provided they are not discharged on less than honorable grounds. Not sure how I feel about those guys being homeless, depends on what they did to get kicked out. Refuse to follow orders? Sympathetic, somewhat. Raped a civilian? Yeah fuck no.


Sure. Everyone asking for money has a story. Might even be true, who knows? At least in part. Playing up sympathetic parts is typical, and leaning on the veteran thing is a way to potentially benefit from the US's respect for the military. And, unfortunately, the VA is pretty rubbish in terms of assistance in many ways.

CorruptUser wrote:Quick googling also states that about 14% of male homeless are vets, more than the average, according to the VA which I assume is reliable. I do not know if it's broken down by discharge status, because that would be an interesting thing to look at. My question/musing was whether it was based on polling the homeless themselves. Either most of the homeless I talked to were really vets and the VA is wrong, small data sample problems, Ive only been in weird areas, or some of them are lying.


It isn't the weird areas, claiming to be a vet is common among homeless in most places. Some are probably lying. Happens. They may also have some not-quite-actual veteran status, but the person themselves fudges on the side that happens to look better. Not entirely a lie, but not using the same criteria as the VA? For instance, someone who failed out of basic training. I believe the military does not consider you a veteran unless you serve a day after completing training. But that person did enlist, and may describe themselves as such.

CorruptUser wrote:As for Minnesotans in Florida, the issue is that Florida shouldn't be forced to pick up the tab for Minnesota's problems. Yes yes, provide services, but the problem is basically a prisoners dilemma with 50+ players in that if you provide services and others don't, thge others have their problem solved for free while you are stuck with the bill.


Well, federal funding to states is...kind of a confusing mess. Some states pay a great deal less than their share, some pay more. The idea that each state pays its own way is...nice in some ways, but unfortunately does not map very well to reality, and historically really hasn't.

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:35 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:In the long-winded religious ramblings I deleted earlier, I opined that the Calvin-influenced Puritanism that still influences so much of US society views most people as predestined to damnation, so there's no point in trying to redeem them. According to that warped worldview, attempting to recognize and restore the dignity of those in need might even be contrary to God's will.

If you believe that wealth and social status are evidence of God's showering of blessing and grace upon those who please Him, then the poor and despised are poor and despised because God thinks they deserve to be poor and despised. And one can view crime among poor communities as evidence of their inherent depravity. See, they deserve to be miserable. Who are we to interfere with God's justice, by trying to alleviate the suffering of people God Himself is punishing?

Or at least that's the theology that I suspect underpins most "tough on crime" and "don't reward people for sinful behavior" attitudes.


This does make me wonder whether they wear seat belts.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 4880
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:17 pm UTC

Question for whoever is complaining about states exporting their homeless: if an old or disabled person living off limited SSI or SSDI income finds themselves priced out of housing in expensive California and, sick of being homeless there, decides to move to Arizona or Nevada instead where they have a better chance of making ends meet, do you count that as "exporting their homeless"?
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6448
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:42 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Question for whoever is complaining about states exporting their homeless: if an old or disabled person living off limited SSI or SSDI income finds themselves priced out of housing in expensive California and, sick of being homeless there, decides to move to Arizona or Nevada instead where they have a better chance of making ends meet, do you count that as "exporting their homeless"?

If we defined it based on the wealthy homeowners regulating home building to near zero? Then yes.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10145
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:54 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Question for whoever is complaining about states exporting their homeless: if an old or disabled person living off limited SSI or SSDI income finds themselves priced out of housing in expensive California and, sick of being homeless there, decides to move to Arizona or Nevada instead where they have a better chance of making ends meet, do you count that as "exporting their homeless"?



That would be me.

My answer is "good question." I would agree it's also a problem that should be addressed.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6482
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:48 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:finds themselves priced out of housing in expensive California [...] decides to move to Arizona or Nevada [...] do you count that as "exporting their homeless"?
If it can be shown that this "pricing out" is directly due to a concerted official policy against the poor and their civil rights, then yeah, I suppose so. But this would require medium level conspiracy theory. (I say "medium" level because lately I've been seeing and hearing lots of flat earth, NASA lies, gravity is a hoax, 9-11 truther, Newtown shooting was all actors... this stuff broke my conspirometer.)

In the case where this is just economics playing out, then no, it's not "exporting the homeless".

So long as we allow free movement between areas with different laws, this problem will exist. Pick your poison.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6448
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:53 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:finds themselves priced out of housing in expensive California [...] decides to move to Arizona or Nevada [...] do you count that as "exporting their homeless"?
If it can be shown that this "pricing out" is directly due to a concerted official policy against the poor and their civil rights, then yeah, I suppose so. But this would require medium level conspiracy theory. (I say "medium" level because lately I've been seeing and hearing lots of flat earth, NASA lies, gravity is a hoax, 9-11 truther, Newtown shooting was all actors... this stuff broke my conspirometer.)
In the case where this is just economics playing out, then no, it's not "exporting the homeless".
So long as we allow free movement between areas with different laws, this problem will exist. Pick your poison.e

How are home owners defending their property values a conspiracy ( aka crazy idea)? It's well known that many homeowners fight to defend their property values, and they heavily weigh in local politics for these things. You yourself have admitted to preventing development.
We disagree about whether homeowners should do it, but homeowners definitely do defend themselves. And if they can't defend themselves, they'll white flight to a new location.

As for the civil rights stuff, Google redlining of minorities. It was pretty sick shit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining
Historians have known about it for a while, but not many others.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6482
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:51 pm UTC

sardia wrote:How are home owners defending their property values a conspiracy
It's not, and people have a right to defend their property (values). There is however a difference between preventing development and ousting the poor. Preventing development isn't a crazy conspiracy; it's what happens when people want to keep what they have. Other people don't have a right to an apartment building that doesn't exist. However, if the apartment building does exist, and is occupied, then a statewide policy of emptying such apartments is suspect. This includes state-supported urban renewal projects, where I do believe the state has an obligation to the displaced people (but not to every state they move to).
sardia wrote:And if they can't defend themselves, they'll white flight to a new location.
If they white-fly to Georgia, and boost Georgia's economy, does Georgia then owe California some sort of compensation?

And yeah, redlining of minorities was at least a quiet collusion. Not all conspiracies are false. But there's more to it; lower income people are riskier loan clients. Also, anyone with nowhere else to go is at the mercy of the one who would serve them. This is one of the reasons why unrestrained capitalism doesn't work out well for society, and why a discussion on the AI economy (and its effect on crime) is not premature. In any case, the redlining laws have changed; many ordinary practices back then are illegal now, so to continue them would require conspiracy.

It's also important whether the adverse actions are state-sponsored or business related, because the question is whether or not the state itself is responsible for the result.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

User avatar
Pfhorrest
Posts: 4880
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:11 am UTC
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:58 pm UTC

ucim wrote:Preventing development isn't a crazy conspiracy; it's what happens when people want to keep what they have. Other people don't have a right to an apartment building that doesn't exist.

This has nothing to do with conspiracy-or-not, but preventing development is unrelated to keeping what you already have. If Alice has a house, and Bob has some land, and Charles wants to build something on that land so that Dawn has somewhere to live, Alice doesn't lose her house if Bob, Charles, and Dawn do their deal (Bob and Charles get money and Dawn gets a home). Similarly, Dawn may not have a right to have Charles build anything on Bob's land, but neither does Alice have any right against it. That's entirely between Bob, Charles, and Dawn, and Alice shouldn't get any say in it.
Forrest Cameranesi, Geek of All Trades
"I am Sam. Sam I am. I do not like trolls, flames, or spam."
The Codex Quaerendae (my philosophy) - The Chronicles of Quelouva (my fiction)

User avatar
freezeblade
Posts: 1270
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:11 pm UTC
Location: Oakland

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby freezeblade » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:48 pm UTC

Spoiled for kinda off-topic, as I don't think the urban planning discussion is anything more than tangentially related to police misbehavior.
Spoiler:
I've gone over it before in this forum somewhere (probably a gentrification/development thread), as someone who majored in Architectural design, with a focus in urban redevelopment...I'm going to have to side with Pforrest here; People who block development of any land around them (which in California usually involves, by design, an amount of blelow-market-rate housing) with the reasoning of "protecting property values" are a major factor in urban blight and the current housing crisis here. NIMBYism must die (or we must put laws to limit people's power over property they do not own), or things won't be getting better anytime soon.
Belial wrote:I am not even in the same country code as "the mood for this shit."

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:55 pm UTC

All the property in urban areas is owned and developed. It is a little disingenuous to believe that redevelopment can be done without displacing people who don't want to be displaced.

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26453
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:56 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
California also shouldn't get any sympathy for the other states sending them their homeless.

Was anyone whining about homeless people in CA the way you were about Florida though?
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10145
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:41 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:
California also shouldn't get any sympathy for the other states sending them their homeless.

Was anyone whining about homeless people in CA the way you were about Florida though?


They were back in the 70s when Greyhound therapy was in full swing. And oh hey, here's a more recent case of it happening to California. And I didn't bring up Florida, someone else did as an example so I went with it. Not really caring too much about that lost cause of a state, but I do care that the fear, justified or not, that increasing social spending would "invite" in all the homeless, makes it difficult for my state to increase social spending.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6482
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:01 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:preventing development is unrelated to keeping what you already have. [...] Alice doesn't lose her house if Bob, Charles, and Dawn do their deal
And musicians don't lose anything if I "share" their songs on (the old) napster. Owning real estate is different from owning chattel. Alice doesn't lose her house if I build a nightclub on my property right next to hers either, but for some reason it's not generally accepted that I can do that.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10145
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:07 am UTC

I think we are getting into the realm of positional goods here. Goods that are only valuable if others don't have them, e.g., diamonds, Ivy league degrees, non-production luxury cars.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6482
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:08 pm UTC

Not at all. They (real estate) are goods whose value depends on the behavior of those around them. Zoning laws and noise ordinances are ways to enforce that behavior. Part of the appeal of a house is lack of crowding; part of the appeal of urban living is that crowding. It's part of what you buy when you buy real estate.

But in any case this discussion, should it be continued, should probably be moved.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

idonno
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:34 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:27 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:preventing development is unrelated to keeping what you already have. [...] Alice doesn't lose her house if Bob, Charles, and Dawn do their deal
And musicians don't lose anything if I "share" their songs on (the old) napster. Owning real estate is different from owning chattel. Alice doesn't lose her house if I build a nightclub on my property right next to hers either, but for some reason it's not generally accepted that I can do that.

Jose

What is happening in these scenarios is very different. If someone builds a nightclub by your house, it reduces the utility of your house. The house is no longer the same good that it was before the nightclub was put in. If someone puts in a development down the street, your house has just as much utility (assuming proper infrastructure development to go along with the new houses). It simply has to compete in a market against other very similar goods.

With intellectual property, the good being made is the initial arrangement of data and if someone can manufacture an arrangement of data that hurts the sales of another person's. That is what is comparable to this situation not the sale of access to the initial arrangement of data which is what Napster interfered with.

User avatar
ucim
Posts: 6482
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 3:23 pm UTC
Location: The One True Thread

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ucim » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:37 pm UTC

idonno wrote:If someone puts in a development down the street, your house has just as much utility...
No. The utility of a house comes as much from the neighborhood as it does from the structure.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Please help addams if you can. She needs all of us.

idonno
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:34 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:08 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
idonno wrote:If someone puts in a development down the street, your house has just as much utility...
No. The utility of a house comes as much from the neighborhood as it does from the structure.

Jose

Who said anything about the neighborhood? Typically neighborhoods are set up with neighborhood covenants that people have to agree to when they buy a house. We are talking about a new development outside the neighborhood. If you want a neighborhood so exclusively special that no other neighborhoods exist around it, you can have the neighborhood buy the land around it.
I'm willing to admit that there might be some minor utility impact but the fact is the driver of the change in value, the thing people are protecting against, is not utility impacts but competition impacts. It is functionally different from restricting where a nightclub can go.

User avatar
K-R
Posts: 1564
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:42 pm UTC
Location: Australia

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby K-R » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:37 pm UTC

How many neighbourhoods are small enough that 'down the street' is a different one?

User avatar
ObsessoMom
Nespresso Bomb
Posts: 736
Joined: Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:28 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby ObsessoMom » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:58 pm UTC

It's interesting how differently people seem to see body cam footage from the Mesa, AZ, police shooting, released after the officer was exonerated by a jury last Thursday.

I see a sobbing and confused suspect--told to get from a prone position to a kneeling position and then yelled at for uncrossing his legs while doing so--instinctively reach to pull up his pants when they start to fall. He is immediately shot dead by an officer looking for any excuse to make good on his repeated threats to shoot somebody dead.

Other viewers, including apparently the jury, see the same video and say, "Hey, he was told he'd be shot dead if he reached for his waistband. Fair warning."

User avatar
gmalivuk
GNU Terry Pratchett
Posts: 26453
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:02 pm UTC
Location: Here and There
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:17 pm UTC

Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
---
If this post has math that doesn't work for you, use TeX the World for Firefox or Chrome

(he/him/his)

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6448
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:23 pm UTC


idonno
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:34 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:31 pm UTC

K-R wrote:How many neighbourhoods are small enough that 'down the street' is a different one?
This might be a communications issue with what is meant by "down the street". I'd typically refer to the semi main road that services a bunch of neighborhoods as "the street". I know I'm not the only one around here that uses it like that.
In my experience, neighborhoods are typically all platted and planned before build out so it doesn't really make contextual sense to assume the new development is part of the neighborhood the person is living in as that would have been signed off on before the first house went up.
I suppose ucim might have been using "neighborhood" to mean in the general area not the actual neighborhood (isn't language fun?). If that is the case I'd argue that it doesn't really impact the utility of their property and want a demonstration of some major impact.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10145
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:43 pm UTC

How are you supposed to crawl towards the police officer with your legs crossed?

User avatar
Peaceful Whale
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 10:38 pm UTC
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Peaceful Whale » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:08 pm UTC

Like a worm?
My meta for future reference
Spoiler:
cemper93 wrote:Your meta appears to be "just writes whatever is on his mind and doesn't remember what happened more than five hours ago"

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:21 am UTC

idonno wrote:In my experience, neighborhoods are typically all platted and planned before build out so it doesn't really make contextual sense to assume the new development is part of the neighborhood the person is living in as that would have been signed off on before the first house went up.
Homeless people who need shelter don't live in planned neighborhoods. Middle class people who want homes have plenty of options. I gathered the context was development in urban areas. As an example, a battle is happening between people with the money to punch it out in court. The issue is the desire of a developer to install a high rise in a space currently occupied by a small apartment complex. If built it will be surrounded by 2 story homes. There are already existing high rises in close proximity. The property abuts an Olmsted Park. Down the street has a much different meaning in that context. I find it all rather amusing, since I couldn't buy a deeded parking space in one of the high rises, they cost more than my poor little house.

idonno
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:34 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby idonno » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:14 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:How are you supposed to crawl towards the police officer with your legs crossed?
I checked and if I cross my legs at the ankle, similar to arms at the wrist, it is a little awkward but I can still crawl.


morriswalters wrote:Homeless people who need shelter don't live in planned neighborhoods. Middle class people who want homes have plenty of options. I gathered the context was development in urban areas. As an example, a battle is happening between people with the money to punch it out in court. The issue is the desire of a developer to install a high rise in a space currently occupied by a small apartment complex. If built it will be surrounded by 2 story homes. There are already existing high rises in close proximity. The property abuts an Olmsted Park. Down the street has a much different meaning in that context. I find it all rather amusing, since I couldn't buy a deeded parking space in one of the high rises, they cost more than my poor little house.

It doesn't matter that homeless won't live in the new houses. The housing freed up by the people living in the new houses will be purchased by less well off individuals who in turn will free up houses that will be lived in by the less well off all the way down until there is housing available for people who can't currently get it. Maybe the issue is with writers using the term house but a lot of things I have read about California talk about difficulty building houses (not housing which could be a house or an apartment). Building tall buildings at specific locations can cause issues like obstructing views but typically high rises go in locations that already have high buildings because they cost to much to be worthwhile in locations with low density. You would have to show a pattern of a lot of projects obstructing views to justify that the issue preventing development is really that.

User avatar
Sableagle
Ormurinn's Alt
Posts: 1868
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 4:26 pm UTC
Location: The wrong side of the mirror
Contact:

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby Sableagle » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:35 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:It's interesting how differently people seem to see body cam footage from the Mesa, AZ, police shooting, released after the officer was exonerated by a jury last Thursday.

I see a sobbing and confused suspect--told to get from a prone position to a kneeling position and then yelled at for uncrossing his legs while doing so--instinctively reach to pull up his pants when they start to fall. He is immediately shot dead by an officer looking for any excuse to make good on his repeated threats to shoot somebody dead.

Other viewers, including apparently the jury, see the same video and say, "Hey, he was told he'd be shot dead if he reached for his waistband. Fair warning."


I'm not sure whether the police bod was looking for an excuse or shitting his pants. He seemed to be enjoying his position of power way too much but he also sounded like he was scared there was an ambush coming his way.

Could have been handled far better by a section of British infantry, with two to cover from 120° angles while two searched the room then while one searched each person found without requiring them to move at all. He could have been searched right where he was, establishing that he was unarmed, and Twitchy McPushabout could have gone for a couple of pints of decaf.
Oh, Willie McBride, it was all done in vain.

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby morriswalters » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:48 pm UTC

I was speaking to ucim's context when I spoke about high rises. And I have seen the end results of trickle down housing.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10145
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:42 pm UTC

idonno wrote:The housing freed up by the people living in the new houses will be purchased by less well off individuals who in turn will free up houses that will be lived in by the less well off all the way down until there is housing available for people who can't currently get it.


Unless those new homes are bought as vacation homes and the like, or if two families are squished into 1 house can now get separate houses which is nice for them but doesn't free up space.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6448
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Police misbehavior thread

Postby sardia » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:00 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
idonno wrote:The housing freed up by the people living in the new houses will be purchased by less well off individuals who in turn will free up houses that will be lived in by the less well off all the way down until there is housing available for people who can't currently get it.


Unless those new homes are bought as vacation homes and the like, or if two families are squished into 1 house can now get separate houses which is nice for them but doesn't free up space.

You just need to keep increasing supply until people realize that houses aren't suppose to be investments.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Grop and 20 guests