Secret Santa 2017 Endgame - Merry Christmas

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Sabrar
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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:24 pm UTC

@moody: have you analyzed the scenario where scum!jimbob has roleblock?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:27 pm UTC

@bessie: but seriously, since when do you make meta-reads like that?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:32 pm UTC

I finally figured it out. Scum-team is moody + Suzaku,
somitomi is the indie as I originally thought.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby moody7277 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:01 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:@moody: have you analyzed the scenario where scum!jimbob has roleblock?


My power has priority.
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:41 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:
Sabrar wrote:@moody: have you analyzed the scenario where scum!jimbob has roleblock?


My power has priority.
Is it in your role-pm or did you ask the mods?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:41 pm UTC

bessie wrote:
Sabrar wrote:
moody7277 wrote:That's what the whole panicky "in case I die" post was about; I wanted town to be able to disentangle results should worst come to worst.
Did you forget about full role-pm being made public upon death?
Well, it was specifically pointed out by me here on P7, in a reply to a question from moody, so he must have forgotten.
Why are you answering questions for someone else?

@moody: so how about it? did you truly forget even after bessie mentioned it?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby moody7277 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:46 pm UTC

@Sabrar

1. That statement was part of what I got from the mod.
2. I recalled neither the rule about full PM reveal nor bessie's post referencing it, which was why my last posts on D1 were "panicky".
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:49 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:1. That statement was part of what I got from the mod.
In your role-pm or as a response to a question?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby moody7277 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:53 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
moody7277 wrote:1. That statement was part of what I got from the mod.
In your role-pm or as a response to a question?


I don't feel comfortable being more specific than that due to Standard Rule 6.
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:04 pm UTC

That's irrelevant and a cop-out. For the purposes of rule 6 it does not matter whether it's a role-pm or a mod-answer to a question. If you didn't quote the pm then it doesn't matter, if you did then you already broke the rule.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:06 pm UTC

Still, let me rephrase it to a simple question that can be answered with yes or no. Did you learn that your ability has a higher priority then a roleblock from your original role-pm?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby moody7277 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:21 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:Still, let me rephrase it to a simple question that can be answered with yes or no. Did you learn that your ability has a higher priority then a roleblock from your original role-pm?


Yes.
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:24 pm UTC

Thank you.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Liri » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:23 pm UTC

moody, did you use your power last night?
There's a certain amount of freedom involved in cycling: you're self-propelled and decide exactly where to go. If you see something that catches your eye to the left, you can veer off there, which isn't so easy in a car, and you can't cover as much ground walking.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:17 am UTC

Reads list time. Previous full list was back on D1 here.

bessie (previously probably town):
Spoiler:
Remainder of D1: RL issues led to temporary no posting. Plytho's content different from previous. Ditto Sabrar. Madge is giving reasons to doubt night results. Madge made list because she was expected to. Responds to a few of plytho's points. Challenges Liri on his reads comments, and asks him for who he thinks is acting scummy. Responds to my read on her. Wants to know why Suzaku only intersted in the wagons. Gives town-scum list, with Sabrar towniest, Madge scummiest. Didn't want to push discussing moody's power, as otherwise it becomes useless. Thinks he shouldn't have claimed. Points out flips include hidden mechanics. Observations about Liri refusing to vote. Challenges Sabrar on lynching scum versus not lynching Madge. Asks Liri for town-scum list. Votes Madge. Points out contradictions in Sabrar's defence of Madge. Asks Liri to vote. Points out to Madge that scum potentially knowing submitted roles already brought up. Asks somitomi if he is going to vote.

D2: Nothing to claim. Moody's explanation sounds townie, because if plytho was the target, moody would be the one killed. Points out that I was the kill target, if moody is telling the truth. Thinks moody was too early in saying what he did. Thinks somitomi slightly town or indie. Asks Sabrar what is his role? Suggests Madge do some scum-hunting. moody must have forgotten about role flips. Challenges Sabrar on his defence of Madge for not understanding why I am town. Goes into detail as to why Sabrar isn't likely mafia for mostly meta reasons. Indie possible, but thinks he is likely town.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again that bessie looks as town as she always does. She's continuing on with her usual blend of observations, sarcastic comments, and pointed questions, whilst also making good observations about people along the way. She hasn't said much about some people (me, somitomi, Suzaku), but I'm guessing that's just because she hasn't seen much interesting in our posts worth commenting on. Still reading her as town overall.

Liri (previously town):
Spoiler:
D1 - Hasn't learnt much from Wam versus Sabrar - lost regarding meta discussion. Doesn't know for certain who other townies are. Me, plytho, Somitomi are fine, Sabrar, wam and Madge scummier. Doesn't know about moody and bessie. Likes my reads. Comments on the four I made for Suzaku. Recycles some comments that others made over Madge and resetting meta. Finds moody's ability odd to claim. Sabrar's overconfidence is suspect. Interactions between wam and Sabrar look like town versus scum/indie. No huge reason to suspect wam. Will vote if tie-breaking vote needed. Didn't know not voting was weird. Thinks moody should use his ability. Reread wam's posts, nothing strikes him as suspicious, and moves him to town. Realises that asking for more content is not necessarily townie. Posted ordered list because "bessie insists". Explains Suzaku and Sabrar being fairly low because he has better reads on others. Doesn't think either wam or Madge are scum, would vote for Madge, if needed. Madge's surprise seems genuine, but scum could be too. Votes Madge.

D2 - Suzaku/Sabrar/somitomi looking fishy. Backs down on Suzaku. Thinks somitomi/Sabrar might be putting on inter-scum battle. Posts some reads, but very little actual clear indication of thoughts on alignment. Clearly indicates wasn't happy to vote for Madge. Observes that scum wouldn't target a player if moody's ability might mean hitting themselves.
If Liri's content had come from a more experienced player, I'd probably be voting for him already, as so much of it looks scummy: refusing to vote until essentially forced to, posting things as reads without actually saying who is town/scum, recycling comments that others made as reads and responses (e.g. Madge resetting her meta - why not just do it, was something wam(?) had said earlier). I think a lot of this could be due to inexperience, but at the same time, I'm going to struggle to ignore it if it keeps up much longer. Very slightly townie for now, based on earlier content, but really needs to pick up the quality of his posts.

Madge (previously slightly scummy):
Spoiler:
D1 - Unlikely to vote D1. Felt wam was biased, didn't think plytho reading lots into flavour vote-worthy, and felt putting bessie scummier was response to everyone calling her townie. Feels like losing moody's power is no great loss, but likes that moody decided to use his power. Thinks it will discourage scum from using gambits. Defends why she openly talked about resetting her meta. Repeats that she thinks moody should use his power, and discusses why. Asks if scum allowed to discuss their submitted roles. Explains had moody as "unbiased scummy read". Thinks wam is scum due to his obsession with her, but might be OMGUS bias. Sabrar odd, but just having fun. Votes wam in self-defence. Shocked response on mod answer. Dismissed plytho's previous speculation. Explains why she asked the question.

D2 - Hoping for claims/other interesting stuff. somitomi acting consistently. Disappointed moody revealed his targets. Excited to see Sabrar's plan. Confused why I am essentially confirmed town. Upset nothing to report from the night. Observes that I was original NK target. Wants to know what's up with Sabrar, but doesn't think he's jester.
As I noted earlier, if Madge is scum, it is very unlikely that bessie, Liri or somitomi are scum with her. If Madge is town, I don't see any easy way of eliminating suspects based on the D1 voting. I know that Madge prefers it when there's concrete information to analyse, but I thought that she normally coped better when there wasn't any such information (I'm ignoring Crossover, since that game was ridiculous) - I'm beginning to wonder whether she's deliberately playing to her meta, now that Sabrar has a "solid" town meta-read on her. So far, her D2 play hasn't exactly been inspiring. As I noted previously, her defence of wanting to vote moody seemed void of any intent to get scum, although she has later clarified this as saying that it was also an unbiased scum read (at least, I assume that's what she meant with the venn diagram comment). In that case, she had at least four candidates as scum when she made her ordered list, which is a bit much, given the size of the game. I think she is making those kinds of posts because she feels she has to, not because she wants to help town, which isn't a good sign. That being said, I think her surprise is somewhat town-indicative. Whilst it's certainly possible scum!Madge didn't think about it, I doubt it comes from scheming-scum!Madge, at the very least. Does get a small bonus point for being adjacent to the presumed scum night kill target (i.e. me). Still scummy overall.

moody (previously leaning town):
Spoiler:
D1 - Suggests that his earlier claim was mostly to collect reactions, but also to prepare town for the night results and so was safe for him to use his ability. Reads based on responses to this - me, Madge, plytho townie on this, wam scummy. Finds bessie's response townie. Would have considered requests to not use power. Upset by plytho's mis-characterisation. Tries to explain timing of decision to plytho. Could consider not using his power, if several people ask him not to. Asks Liri & somi for opinions on the issue. Doesn't like Liri's list with Sabrar and Suzaku at the bottom. Reads Madge's posts in isolation, highlighting some of the same points that I did at almost exactly the same time. Looks lynchable. Posts algorithm as being one day, 10 minutes before deadline.

D2 - Felt it likely that scum would aim for plytho, and therefore town needed the information. Points out that there will be ambiguity going forward as to whether or not he used his power. Thinks Sabrar is jester. Has him, plus bessie and me as not-votables, Madge as votable (based on end of D1 observations), and somitomi, Liri, Suzaku TBD. Goes through somitomi's posts, and moves him to non-votables. Thinks somitomi could do more active scum-hunting. Calls out Sabrar for not much actual scum-hunting. Goes through Liri's posts, and would call him scummy, except for newbie factor. Responds to my confusion over his explanation. Thinks I should be able to deduce who scum actually targeted. Reads through Suzaku, and doesn't like lack of any depth from him. Redirection has priority over roleblocking (confirmed by mod).
Thank you moody, for your explanation (and for others whose commentary helped me to figure out what everything meant). I'm feeling pretty good about moody. He's putting quite a bit of effort D2 into reading people, and although he did focus a lot towards the end of D1 on his power, it was mostly because it was brought up by others, and he didn't completely drop all scum-hunting. His apparent willingness to get hit by the kill looks good, although obviously scum!moody would have had no fear of being hit by said kill. Overall, pretty townie.

Sabrar (previously not scum, but indie certainly possible):
Spoiler:
D1 - Tells Suzaku that wam is sucm because he said so. Thinks plytho is being stubborn over his interaction with moody. Abstains from whether moody should use his ability. Believes somitomi is indie. Thinks Suzaku will vote Madge. Allows me to enter Core Town, but I need to unvote Madge. Would vote somitomi after wam. Need to lynch somitomi if anti-town indie, but is scum by PoE if wam is town. Explains early play over Madge. All indies bad for town if playing kingmaker. Somitomi too quiet, bothered by plytho. Doesn't think wam's interacted with somitomi. Big discussion with wam. Asks wam who is Madge's scum-buddy. Madge is not a criminal mastermind. Lynching Madge would be a win-win for Sabrar (either scum, or gets to say "I told you so"). Promises more detailed read on Madge. Brings up his case for town Madge, based on meta. Highlights wam wanting to ignore non-SK indies - perspective is indicative of scum. Claims evidence of Suzaku being scum. Asks him for opinions on other players. Updated ordered list with wam and Suzaku as top scum. Responds to my concerns with his read on Madge, and my own read on her. Would defend any of his core town reads. Wants to know why people feel Madge's surprise is genuine, but not her other content.

D2 - Opens D2 with somitomi vote, convinced he is scum. Wants to know why moody revealed his ability. Claims nothing to prove Madge is town. Would be better being wrong. Asks people for opinions on somitomi. Switches vote to Madge. Obtuse response to my observation as to why he might be wanting to vote Madge. Jokes around who his team-mates are. Switches back to somitomi, regrets lynching wam, promises proof as to why later. After somitomi, 50/50 moody or Suzaku vote target. Thinks Madge not understanding why I am town is a town-slip. Moves to prefering to vote Suzaku (I think), due to lurkiness. Moody is confusing him. Switches to voting Suzaku for lurking. Comments on bessie using a meta-read of him. Asks whether moody has considered scum!me using roleblock. Scum team is moody + Suzau, with indie!somitomi. Seeks clarification over certainty of redirect trumping roleblock.
@Sabrar - you said you'd prove that somitomi is scum today (or maybe that we shouldn't have lynched wam, it's not clear which you meant), but you have yet to do so. Care to do so now?

For all the weirdness Sabrar is exhibiting, after this latest read, I'm actually feeling okay about him. There are some genuine moments of scum-hunting in amongst the weird stubbornness. I really wish he'd explain his reads though. If he gets killed, we won't know what secret insight he has into moody, Suzaku or somitomi. Marginal town, still possible indie candidate.

somitomi (slightly townie previously):
Spoiler:
D1 - pinged by wam's reasoning for keeping his joke-vote on bessie. Exchange with Sabrar and moody more townie. Suspicious of motive behind moody's claim. He should claim first D2, but uncertain, and thinks it better that he doesn't use it. Explains this point further. Never been scum so far. Torn about voting. Would rather vote Madge, but might vote Sabrar too due to tunnelling wam, and defending Madge. Votes Madge, after my promise to unvote to break deadlock, then unvotes after tie came up.

D2 - Votes Sabrar for tunnel vision. Thinks moody revealing his ability negates its effects. Nothing to claim. Asks Liri what's fishy about Suzaku or himself. moody's setting self up for the kill only applies if moody used his power. Confused by Liri's comments re. scum targeting plan. Finds moody more suspicious as he looks like he is coming up with reasons for revealing his action.
Okay, I think I see where Sabrar is coming from for indie-somitomi - he's not making any obvious attempt to hunt for scum at the moment, and I think he would be more likely to as scum to actually attempt to scum-hunt. His reluctance to vote at the end of D1 also stands out to me a little, but since he made it clear who his lynch preference was, it's not that big a deal, and I would consider him about as cleared as everybody else on a scum!Madge wagon. Aside from the lack of significantly useful scum-hunting, I don't get any real scum pings from him in any of what he has said, and overall, very slightly townie, and could easily move into scum territory.

Suzaku (no previous content):
Spoiler:
D1 - Asks for update to get him up to speed, and help give him some focus. Wants to know why Sabra thinks Suzaku will vote Madge. Puts Sabrar weirdness down to Secret Santa shenanigans. Not sure in favour of moody using redirection, but claiming in advance is townie. Reviews top scum candidates. Unconvinced by the Madge wagon (Madge D1), nor suspicions on moody (thought out plan that he thinks is beneficial to moody). Can understand the wam wagon (using conversation with Sabrar as smokescreen). Something strange with Sabrar. Super busy at work. Not a fan of meta arguments. Doesn't usually post lots of questions. Townie feeling from me, slightly concerned by plytho, everyone else is "don't know yet". Doesn't have a strong town read on Madge, but no scum read either, based on meta. Votes wam.

No D2 posts.
Maybe Suzaku forgot that this game was nightless? He did say he was pretty busy at work. Is he one of those who doesn't post on weekends?

Only got D1 content to look at, and there's not much of it, given he was relatively late to replace in. He basically didn't have any strong scum reads on anybody from what I can tell, posted comments without substantiation on one or two players (e.g. concerned by plytho - why?), and even wam, who he voted for, he didn't seem totally convinced was scum. I'd like to know from Suzaku what he thinks on every remaining player, because as things stand, I have basically no idea what he thought of most other players at the end of D1. Scummy for lurking and lack of useful content.

Town
bessie
moody,
Sabrar - indie candidate
Liri
somitomi - indie candidate
Madge
Suzaku
Scum

Vote Suzaku

I could easily be persuaded to vote for Madge instead, or maybe somitomi at a push.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby moody7277 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:33 am UTC

Liri wrote:moody, did you use your power last night?


That was my starting point on why I figure jimbob is town.
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby bessie » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:53 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:@bessie: but seriously, since when do you make meta-reads like that?
I don’t usually, because I don't do good meta-type reads or have reliable gut instincts, and that is the primary reason I don’t consider myself a good scum hunter. Contrast that with someone like SDK, who can build a behavior-based case on someone or just get the wrong feel from their content (and is legendary for being able to spot scum based on their confirmation post).

Meta reads usually burn me, like my refusal to vote moody on D1 in Crossover for meta reasons, which I had to defend the entire game. :|

I did a quick skim of a recent game (not Crossover because there is no such thing as a quick skim of Crossover). Nothing in Halloween, unless I missed it. It looks like I did do a meta read of heuristically_alone in Refrigerator Mafia, and I argued quite a bit with LaserGuy about it because he also pointed out that I don’t usually do meta reads.

But back to my meta town read of you, there are parts of it that are more general. I think it unlikely that any mafia in this setup (possible 7-2-1) would have displayed your level of D1 goofiness, not just you. Well, maybe Vytron but he’s not in this game, and goofy behavior would have been within his meta anyway. :P

Note that if you had actually done something that I could point to as suspicious or scummy, like inconsistencies or contradictions in your content, then that would override any meta read or feel I have from you this game. But you haven't so my town read of you stays for now.

I'm working on my reads, give me about an hour.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Liri » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:59 am UTC

moody7277 wrote:
Liri wrote:moody, did you use your power last night?


That was my starting point on why I figure jimbob is town.

OK, cool (re-reading, I saw you already answered that, whoops).

(Yeah, my last "reads" was a little overly jokey)

Sabrar
Spoiler:
Thinks moody and Suzaku are a scum team, but hasn't provided any reason for us to think so. Was equally certain about Wam, and was (potentially non-seriously) saying the same about somitomi at the start of D2. It looks a lot like a, "best defence is a good offence" strategy, except it's not actually quality scum-hunting. I don't know what signifies the posting style of an indy (I looked it up: not actively scum-hunting in order to avoid being a NK target [correct me if there are other tells]). Sticking with the scummish side of neutral.


somitomi
Spoiler:
Somewhat similar with the lack of major scum hunting. Perks up when people (including myself) suspect him. But, his confusion over my theory of scum taking moody's ability into account looks good.


Madge
Spoiler:
Going back to D1 to read some more lengthy posts. Her defence against Wam's accusations looks worse in retrospect, to quote, "I currently think wam is scum but I suspect that's my own biases OMGUsing it, but then again his obsession with me is kind of weird."
It really comes off as a ploy to get us on the Wam Wagon (and it might've worked on some people). Looking scummy.


jimbob
Spoiler:
Has been consistent the whole game (and apparently looked scummy when scummy in previous games). moody's confirmation that he was the intended NK target seals the deal.


moody
Spoiler:
His back and forth with Sabrar looks like genuine confusion, not the stilted aggression when scum buddies interact. If they were both scum, I'm guessing most of that conversation would have taken place in PM.
And yeah, plytho could easily have been the intended NK and was willing to take the risk. Has been giving detailed post-by-post analyses. My putting him at the bottom on my D1 list was almost certainly a mistake (I may have been carrying over a negative feeling from just having read the Wolf game). Looking town.


Suzaku
Spoiler:
Still limited content, but what we've gotten hasn't been particularly great. Comments about moody's power that, "all it will do is spread confusion," which looks like a weak attempt to appear to be protecting the interests of town. Scummy, but will wait to see what he has to say D2.


Bessie
Spoiler:
Pokes and prods. Didn't fall for the Wam train. She "can't see how [Sabrar] is scum", which, heck, is coming from a much more experienced player than me, but it seems like a weird thing to say about someone who's been posting pretty oddly. Despite that, seems overall townish.


TOWN
jimbob
moody
Bessie
somitomi
Sabrar
Suzaku (not bottom (yet) due to no D2 posts)
Madge
SCUM

Vote Suzaku

Rather get rid of the one who isn't posting.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:28 am UTC

Kill: somitomi

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby bessie » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:06 am UTC

Does this end the day like the hammer or can we still post?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:08 am UTC

You can post, day goes on.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby bessie » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:12 am UTC

Ok. What are you doing Sabrar? moody's redirect might still be active.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:26 am UTC

Then my shot does nothing.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby bessie » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:37 am UTC

So I guess we wait for LaserGuy. Or do you want to claim independent?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:45 am UTC

Why don't you post your thoughts on somitomi now, while we don't know his alignment? :lol:
And Town all the way. Probably Vanilla.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby bessie » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:59 am UTC

Ok. I've been working on my reads all night in between other tasks. They aren't quite complete, and I didn't get to Suzaku yet, but here is what I have.

jimbobmacdoodle
I agreed with most of his reads in his initial reads list here, especially his read of Madge. Same for his updated list here, except where he notes (for the second time) that somitomi is light on content, but gives him a pass and a townie label anyway. I didn’t like that he responded to Suzaku’s request for summaries of the top three wagons here more because I was suspicious of Suzaku for making the request. Starts D2 off defending somitomi to Sabrar. Made the accurate observation that I haven’t said much about him, somitomi, and Suzaku.

Liri
I was suspicious of him early for a few things, like the remark about BSing his reads here, and for not voting but being willing to cast a tiebreaker vote (discussed here). Rereading, this post pings me a bit.
Liri wrote:I'm glad I'm getting my newbie town tells in while the getting's good.

But for now will consider it a newbie remark, along with his post.
Liri wrote:From reading two previous games, now, it looked like giving ranked town->scum lists was vaguely scummy. Easy for the baddies to put each other on the slightly town side of the median and skim by to an extent. I didn't keep detailed notes of who did it so I could be totally talking out of my ass.
I like that he noted an issue with town scum lists (which is that scum make them too) even though he drew the wrong conclusion (lists are scummy). His reads list here was mostly opinions on posting style, not on content, except for the part about moody. He finally did a reads list (post above this one), and doesn’t agree with me on Sabrar. Slightly townie, D1 content would be suspicious if not for his newbie status, but I like the effort he put in to his last post.

Madge
Starts off suspicious with the rebooting her meta post, but what I thought was also suspicious in that post was the odd cop fake claim comment, already noted by me here. Made several winey posts reminding us that she’s rebooting her meta and/or not a good player, a couple about how she wouldn’t be voting on D1, and this post so that she wouldn’t be replaced (I already made a sarcastic remark about it here). My D1 read was scum, and she hasn’t posted anything on D2 to make me change my opinion.

moody7277
Revealed his power on D1, which was suspicious in itself because of the recent discussion about early claimants being auto treated as town (also noted by jimbob and plytho, see this post. I also found it a bit suspicious that he kept pushing people to discuss his power , see my reaction here. My thoughts about the timing of revealing the mechanics of his power here.

Sabrar
My initial meta read was that Sabrar’s goofiness was just because he was excited to be playing after watching the last game, coupled with a post restriction or that he was trying to trigger a power. I think he has been over defending Madge (already discussed by me). I do trust his sincerity in his Madge read. I just think that he is wrong. Meta town read, see here. Perhaps I don’t have a super strong town read based on his content, but nothing in his content pings me as scummy.

somitomi
Toward the end of D1 I started to lean indie on him because I didn’t like his answer to my question here.
somitomi wrote:
bessie wrote:
somitomi wrote:
Sabrar wrote:I've concluded that somitomi is the indie. Of course he'll never admit it, not after X-Men.

Well of course I wouldn't, not when you are in the game... :P
Would you admit it if Sabrar were not in the game?

On a more serious note, that would probably depend on my win condition and what town would do if I revealed something about it. There might be an opportunity for fake-claiming some other indie role, but given my little experience I'd be hesitant to try such a gambit.

Moving on to D2, I thought this was an odd thing to say.
somitomi wrote:
bessie wrote:Your explanation sounds reasonable in that if you thought that plytho was going to be the target, then you would be setting yourself up to take the kill, which would be a townie thing to do.

That too applies only if moody used their power, which isn't clear to me at this point. Probably better to keep it that way until all potential claims are out.
I’m not sure I understand your comment. moody knew whether or not he used his power. This post pings me too.
somitomi wrote:
Liri wrote: Scum'll almost certainly target players that are at least one position away from themselves on the player list, so the NK could reveal who scum isn't (beyond just the victim)

Why do you think that would be the case and what do you infer from that? In fact I'm not sure I understand this completely, what is the supposed targeting habit here?
Liri made a valid point here. What don’t you understand?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:05 am UTC

Oh, I forgot to say that we're expecting guests so I probably will be away for most of the day.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby bessie » Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:18 am UTC

Alright, have a great day with your guests!

I just noticed this from my Liri read:

bessie wrote: He finally did a reads list (post above this one), and doesn’t agree with me on Sabrar.

The bolded refers to a post made more than seven hours ago, approximately when I started picking at this. I think I need to give it a break and get some sleep. :?

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby somitomi » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:39 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:Kill: somitomi

So...
am I dead now?
bessie wrote:I’m not sure I understand your comment. moody knew whether or not he used his power.

As I said in that very post, it wasn't clear to me at the time whether moody used his power or not.

bessie wrote:Liri made a valid point here. What don’t you understand?

I didn't realise he deduced that from moody's power and that was clarified since then.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Sabrar » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:20 am UTC

somitomi wrote:So...
am I dead now?
Only the mods know.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:16 pm UTC

I'm curious to see whether Sabrar was being serious about his day kill following Red Ryu's similar actions in Crossover, where it was discussed that fake day vigs were quite common on Smashboards. Whether it's real or not, I don't know, but regardless, somitomi, you should be able to continue to post until mod-confirmation or otherwise. I would strongly advise giving us any more thoughts you have as quickly as possible, just in case you are about to flip town.

If it is genuine, I have no issues with Sabrar using it, based on his ongoing opinions. More thoughts about it later once I have a bit more time.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby somitomi » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:22 pm UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I'm curious to see whether Sabrar was being serious about his day kill following Red Ryu's similar actions in Crossover, where it was discussed that fake day vigs were quite common on Smashboards. Whether it's real or not, I don't know, but regardless, somitomi, you should be able to continue to post until mod-confirmation or otherwise. I would strongly advise giving us any more thoughts you have as quickly as possible, just in case you are about to flip town.

In progress as we speak, will post shortly.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby somitomi » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:27 pm UTC

In the meantime I reviewed D2. This is ordered more or less town-scum.

Jimbob: his game is pretty much the same as before, I didn't expect him to vote Suzaku based on so little content, but maybe we're different. I don't see ay reason to doubt he's town

bessie: continues pushing on whatever she finds questionable while occasionally joking around with Sabrar. I find that odd, but overall she remains a solid townie

Liri: posted some short opinions without much explanation early on, but his later reads are okay in that regard. His involvement in the discussion about moody's power looks good to me, overall I get a newbie-town vibe from his D2 content.

moody: I was quite suspicious of him at the end of D1, but he appears to have made a genuine effort to clear up any questions regarding his power. I retain a tiny amount of skepticism about his claim, but he's leaning towards town based on today.

Sabrar: continues his seemingly confident but erratic game, but I like his D2 a little better. Finding out how a roleblock affects moody's power for example is quite relevant. I think bessie has a point and he probably isn't scum, but I don't see why town!Sabrar would do what he's doing. Thus he's probably an indie.

Unvote

Suzaku: Where in the world is Suzaku? Scummy for lack of activity.

Madge: she was my lynch candidate on D1 and my view hasn't improved. This remark concerns me the, she could've checked for a cop-claim herself (as bessie pointed out). I find her disappointment odd as well, an investigative role claiming on D2 is the exception as far as I know.
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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Liri » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:07 pm UTC

Good 'ole Sabrar

Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:By the way, if anybody has a day vig, they definitely should use it on Sabrar now.

I AM THE DAY-VIG


somi, did your role give you any night results?
There's a certain amount of freedom involved in cycling: you're self-propelled and decide exactly where to go. If you see something that catches your eye to the left, you can veer off there, which isn't so easy in a car, and you can't cover as much ground walking.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby moody7277 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:10 pm UTC

Yeah, my first thought on Sabrar's alleged daykill was that he's turning his behavior this game up to 11. I then remembered seeing something like the tactic used as an investigative tool in one other game (besides Crossover). The target freaked out when the announcement was made, turned out he was a rather nasty anti-town independent. somi's response being more subdued is uncomfortable if Sabrar was being serious.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Peaceful Whale » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:58 pm UTC

Image


      Everyone turns suddenly at the tremendous rapport of the gunshot. They see an elf calmly holding a large antique musket, smoke hissing from the muzzle in the cool winter air. Someone slumps to the ground, instantly killed.

Somitori has been killed!

They were Elf Pacifist aligned with Town!


Role PM:
Spoiler:
Elf Pacifist (Town).

For years, renouncing violence simply meant opposing violent video games and toy guns. Recent events have left you deeply shattered and conflicted about your beliefs. Is it better to preserve life now? Or is some violence necessary now to prevent greater harm later? How much oppression can people tolerate? Perhaps you can use your skills to convince everyone to end the conflict without further strife.

Abilities:
Each night, you may choose either to perform an action as a doctor, preventing a player from being killed during the night, or a roleblocker, preventing your target from taking any night actions. You may not use the same action on the same player on consecutive nights. You may only use your night actions on days where you do not have a vote cast in the final vote count.

You are a member of the unionists (Town) and win the game when all threats to the union have been eliminated.
My meta for future reference
Spoiler:
cemper93 wrote:Your meta appears to be "just writes whatever is on his mind and doesn't remember what happened more than five hours ago"

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Peaceful Whale » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:59 pm UTC

Sorry, me and LaserGuy’s sleep schedule does not line up with this game... :P
My meta for future reference
Spoiler:
cemper93 wrote:Your meta appears to be "just writes whatever is on his mind and doesn't remember what happened more than five hours ago"

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This could be the motto of this game

Postby somitomi » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:02 pm UTC

I told you I was town...
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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby moody7277 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:10 pm UTC

I want to vote Sabrar so bad for that, but scum having a daykill like that would be way OP and we're likely in the close vicinity of MYLO depending on the nature of out independent.

Vote: Madge
The story of my life in xkcdmafia:

Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Secret Santa Day 2 - An Explosive Night

Postby Liri » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:26 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:I want to vote Sabrar so bad for that, but scum having a daykill like that would be way OP and we're likely in the close vicinity of MYLO depending on the nature of out independent.

Vote: Madge

Yeah, this does make town/indy!Sabrar more likely, but it's a crappy way for him to indicate he isn't scum. Sabrar, why did you not go after Madge, or at least Suzaku?

My current thought is he's an indy with an unusual win condition. Like, he has to kill a townie during the day in order to win.
There's a certain amount of freedom involved in cycling: you're self-propelled and decide exactly where to go. If you see something that catches your eye to the left, you can veer off there, which isn't so easy in a car, and you can't cover as much ground walking.


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