Let's Talk Money

[sardia]

sardia - Does the dealer have a prepayment penalty? Mine didn't. So, when I bought my most recent car, I took the $2k cash discount with dealer financing over 5 years. Then, I paid the can loan off in the next few months saving (almost) all the interest. I don't know how this affected my credit score, though.

That's weird, I thought it was an either or thing. You either get 0% financing, OR you get $2000 cashback. They really offered you both? How I think it affects your credit score is you take a hit now for the credit check + the reduced average age of accounts, but then you build the total accounts ever listed, so the credit score is higher then you started after 2 years.

Has anyone noticed that buying higher trims/options makes even the cheaper base cars equivalent in price to the higher based car model? I was expecting a car to be naturally cheaper than a SUV. Maybe it's only after incentives?

[Isaac Hill]

I may have explained this badly. What the dealer offered was $2,000 cashback with 4% interest over 5 years with no prepayment penalty. I took that, then paid the car off over the next couple of months. That wasn't enough time to accrue much interest. They didn't offer both no interest and cashback, but by paying the loan off quickly, I got very close to achieving both.

I don't know what that did to my credit score. But, last time I checked my credit report, this showed up as a paid off loan.

If your dealer offers no prepayment penalty, you may be able to do something similar, even if you can't pay the car off right away. Take the cash back with high rate dealer financing. Then, go to your bank for a lower rate loan equal to the balance on your car. Use the bank loan to pay off the dealer loan right away. You get the cash back, lower bank interest rate, and have two paid off loans added to your credit report.

[sardia]

Alright it's over. I ended up with a 2017 CRV

Spoiler:

(mid level/cost/EX trim) only because fucking Hyundai can't plan for shit. (to be fair,1. the Ioniq was more popular than expected. 2. apparently nobody besides me likes paying for technology option/package) I kinda wish I didn't have to spend so much time test driving, then asking for quotes, then being all demur, walking out, asking for revised quotes the next day, then waiting for a call back to play hard to get, then asking for more quotes. Then asking for rival quotes just so they might match the other guy's quote. Then realizing the guy who offered you the best quote doesn't have a god damn car( Why is it that the demand/supply curve always end up that the dealer is swimming in base level and high costed trim/versions of a car, but never the mid level cost car?). The whole time I'm either yelling or being yelled at by the manager.

Why can't a bank provide a decent interest rate anymore? You'd think a small secured loan with a 50%+ downpayment on a car + short term would be almost risk free. They couldn't even crack below 5%. I've seen loansharks give better rates to deadbeats.

Long rant in spoiler...

In short, I hate the world, but then I drove the car home.
The drive made me feel really good. It was guiding me the whole way home. A 2017 car was the right choice.

[sardia]

I'm planning to go vacation in Vegas in January to take advantage of the smaller crowds, but I don't think the tourists are scared enough to depress prices. Should I wait to book?

[ucim]

Depends. Packin' some heat?

I would expect (based on no actual practical experience) that any fear effects on tourism would manifest themselves within the first week or so, and then fade along with the news cycle. So, if you don't see it soon, it's probably not gonna happen.

In some cases (and/or with some booking methods) you can choose between a cheaper non-cancellable rate and a more expensive one that you can cancel without penalty. You could book the more expensive rate, hold it for a week or so, and then commit for the discount (if it's still available, which it probably would be).

Jose

[sardia]

The tax plan has passed, does anybody plan to reclassify their tax behavior for 2018? I might get around to forming a passthrough corporation, and routing rental income through that. Just a hot take until I figure it out for sure later. Remember, it applies to behavior done in 2018, and filed in early 2019, not stuff you're going to file in 2018.

[ucim]

I'm certainly going to look at it, but it may not be useful in my case. Depends what the tax law turns out to be (I don't think it's anything more than a sketch at this point).

Jose

[sardia]

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/c ... cago%2C+IL
What does "local purchasing power in City A is 50% higher than City B" mean?
I think it means that even though Chicago in the example, costs more than the other City, you get paid so much more that you end up better off overall, right? Assumes you are paid the average wage in each City.

[ucim]

What does "local purchasing power in City A is 50% higher than City B" mean?

I think you are right, but I don't know. I would take it as an overall weighted average of all costs and all income in those cities, but the result would depend on what that particular author used for weights.

Jose

[Tyndmyr]

Cost of living is average living costs for a basket of goods, and from that, we derive local purchasing power by factoring in average wages, yeah.

Low cost of living, high average wages, purchasing power is great.

Therefore, in the specific Chicago/Detroit example shown, we can conclude that wages in Detroit are utter trash. The breakout further down gets into the details, but the roughly 87% higher monthly wages in Chicago ends up being the giant factor that dominates everything else.

Honestly, wages and housing costs are often the huge deltas. If a movie costs a couple more dollars in your market, that's fair to include, but it's going to usually be of much lower impact than the above two.

This specific site may not be 100% accurate. It relies on user submitted data, and glancing over my area, it seems some people are paying a great deal more for things than I am. I'm not sure if they're getting data from enough people to have solid accuracy.

[sardia]

Cost of living is average living costs for a basket of goods, and from that, we derive local purchasing power by factoring in average wages, yeah.

Low cost of living, high average wages, purchasing power is great.

Therefore, in the specific Chicago/Detroit example shown, we can conclude that wages in Detroit are utter trash. The breakout further down gets into the details, but the roughly 87% higher monthly wages in Chicago ends up being the giant factor that dominates everything else.

Honestly, wages and housing costs are often the huge deltas. If a movie costs a couple more dollars in your market, that's fair to include, but it's going to usually be of much lower impact than the above two.

This specific site may not be 100% accurate. It relies on user submitted data, and glancing over my area, it seems some people are paying a great deal more for things than I am. I'm not sure if they're getting data from enough people to have solid accuracy.

Thanks for the confirmation. Do you have a better source? Google said the occupation website from the bureau of labor statistics, but that's famously dense.

[Tyndmyr]

Sadly, no.

It's probably roughly accurate, I just saw a lot of .00 prices, which I'm presuming means a lot of rounding in entered estimates, and possibly deriving a lot of numbers from individual estimates. If we're estimating from a large dataset, I'd expect to see less perfectly round numbers as averages. So, probably limited data in many cases.

I'm in agreement with the labor statistics. I'm sure there's good data in there, but I usually look for a nice third party summary instead of delving into it directly.

I have seen cost of living summaries reported on fairly frequently. Probably not super hard to calculate out purchasing power from that, since that's the main bit of number crunching. At least, if you're looking for accurate numbers on a limited set of cities. Got a specific question or what not you want to analyze?

[sardia]

I was wondering if I will expect a paycut in order to move to Detroit. If so, is the reduced paycheck compensated with cheaper cost of living. Based on anecdotal stuff, Detroit ain't cheap. Possibly the average is inaccurate due to income inequality, or the data here is inaccurate.

I'm guessing there will be lost income compared to finding a new job in Chicago regardless. But it might be possible to find work that pays more than I get paid now in Detroit, just less likely.
https://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-livi ... k-mi/50000
Found another cost of living website. Has fine grain data, such as affluent suburbs.

[ucim]

I was wondering if I will expect a paycut in order to move to Detroit.

You will be a specific case - a statistic of one. Exactly what your (new vs old) job will be, and exactly which neighborhood you will choose (or need) to live in, will determine a lot of the actual results. Absent that, all you have are the averages, and you are not an average. You are an individual.

Are you thinking of moving to Detroit and then looking for a job? Perhaps it would be better to look for a job in Detroit, and then decide whether or not to take it.

Jose

[sardia]

I was wondering if I will expect a paycut in order to move to Detroit.

You will be a specific case - a statistic of one. Exactly what your (new vs old) job will be, and exactly which neighborhood you will choose (or need) to live in, will determine a lot of the actual results. Absent that, all you have are the averages, and you are not an average. You are an individual.
Are you thinking of moving to Detroit and then looking for a job? Perhaps it would be better to look for a job in Detroit, and then decide whether or not to take it.
Jose

I'm preparing to look for a job in Detroit and then move there once I get a job first. But until preparations are done, my mind wanders and wonders. I only have averages and potential job openings that sorta fit. Which isn't much to go off of. The purchasing power and relative cost data gives me a better idea.
Based on the first link, one would assume (with a big grain of salt) that a similar job would pay less, and the expenses would be lower. The lower salary, would probably not be offset enough by the lower costs. Lastly, I shouldn't stay there longterm(unless it keeps improving) because lower cost areas with lower salary doesn't help you when you retire in a different place. Aka you wouldn't want to work in Alabama(pays poorly but is supercheap) and then retire in the sun belt states because your retirement dollars aren't spent in Alabama/cheap place.
I'll know for sure when I start getting offers, but this is stimulating theorycrafting for now.

[ucim]

I'm preparing to look for a job in Detroit and then move there

Why?

Serious non-disparaging question. If you are thinking of moving to {place}, you should first know why {place} is attractive to you. This is not the same as looking for {job}, where {job} tends to be located in {place}.

Lastly, I shouldn't stay there long term (unless...

This hints that you think you probably aren't choosing Detroit because you like it.

So, what's the attraction? What are you looking to do there, and/or who are you hoping to mingle with there, that Detroit is a good "there" to be at?

Jose

[sardia]

Why?
Serious non-disparaging question. If you are thinking of moving to {place}, you should first know why {place} is attractive to you. This is not the same as looking for {job}, where {job} tends to be located in {place}.]This hints that you think you probably aren't choosing Detroit because you like it.

So, what's the attraction? What are you looking to do there, and/or who are you hoping to mingle with there, that Detroit is a good "there" to be at?

Jose

A lovely lady.
Plan is simple, get job offer, move there with assistance from job if offer size is sufficient. Statically, we'll have more money if I move vs making her stay.
Though i could break up and find a replacement. That's kinda dickish, but plausible.

[ucim]

A lovely lady.

Ah.

Statically, we'll have more money if I move vs making her stay.

Is this right, or do you mean "...making her move"? In any case, if each of you looks for a job in the other person's hometown, you can pick the best real scenario rather than rely on statistical guesses. Unless the results are obvious.

Jose

[sardia]

I typed correctly. She left to secure her future. I'm following her and I'm rationalizing why it's a good idea. I guess I should look now to see what kind of offers are out there. It feels weird to go through the motions without being able to accept a typical offer.*

*Obviously I have a price that will convince me to leave now. It's unreasonably high given the poor wage growth in the US. Especially for nonstem fields.

[Tyndmyr]

I was wondering if I will expect a paycut in order to move to Detroit. If so, is the reduced paycheck compensated with cheaper cost of living. Based on anecdotal stuff, Detroit ain't cheap. Possibly the average is inaccurate due to income inequality, or the data here is inaccurate.

I'm guessing there will be lost income compared to finding a new job in Chicago regardless. But it might be possible to find work that pays more than I get paid now in Detroit, just less likely.
https://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-livi ... k-mi/50000
Found another cost of living website. Has fine grain data, such as affluent suburbs.

Depends on the scale of the pay cut you get. The data here indicates that on average, yeah, Detroit is a lot rougher, but your particular job may not fall into that average. I'd do some scouting of the job market in the area for your specialties. Sometimes you get some wild outliers.

Fine grained data looks awesome. There's definitely a sweet spot in terms of cost of living...you want to avoid any places that are actually dangerous(many cities have great crime maps), but that are still low cost of living. Sadly, I don't know Detroit well enough to know those, but if you can find a local who knows the area well, they can probably help you out. Failing that, I'm sure there's a subreddit where people will happily converse about their city.

Barring a particularly good setup though, it looks like Detroit will be challenging in general. If it was a move solely for employment reasons, I'd suggest looking elsewhere. Life being what it is, balancing different desires is rough sometimes. I live where I do now mainly because the job market here is particularly good for me. Your approach of considering which move involves the lesser tradeoff is a pretty reasonable approach, though.

A small plus side to moving...the first time you uproot everything is the hardest. After that, it becomes progressively easier. So, even if you end up taking a job in Detroit, get there, and find you don't like it very much, you'll find it easier to move on afterward. Sure, make sure you have a decent job lined up and do it all prudently, but there's nothing wrong with taking a bit of a chance. The more you do that, the better you'll get at it.

[Sungura]

Detroit is so vague.
Like inside the city limits, or in the sprawling metrapolis?
This matters. If your from basically an hours drive from WSU or such you say you are detroit which includes a ton of cities and counties and space.
Really great art (both fine art and music) scene.
Fun capoeira group (recommend the michigan center for capoeira)
Strong unions.
Amazing food.
Very unique culture, and very friendly people - a truer friendliness not the southern fakey hospitality freindliness.
You either love the area or you hate it. Not much between.
I appreciate Detroit now more than when i lived there (for 15 years), tbh.

[SecondTalon]

When people say Detroit they pretty much mean Detroit. The same way people had (NSFW? Maybe?)certain expectations when discussing NYC in the 70s and 80s, or how LA in the 90s was either gridlock or gangland.

Because our cities have one singular monoculture. Just like how alien planets have a single biome, culture, and language in our Sci-Fi.

[Sungura]

When people say Detroit they pretty much mean Detroit. The same way people had (NSFW? Maybe?)certain expectations when discussing NYC in the 70s and 80s, or how LA in the 90s was either gridlock or gangland.

Because our cities have one singular monoculture. Just like how alien planets have a single biome, culture, and language in our Sci-Fi.

I suppose, but anyone who has ever lived in southern or mid michigan doesnt.
Honestly i had no idea of this phenomenon, never heard of it before and it doesnt fit with how i think of cities. Maybe because I was raised between chicago and detroit? So I just assume all cities are varied and not monoculture stereotypes? Thanks for pointing it out as It is legit a new concept for me and actually makes some past conversations make sooooo much more sense.

[sardia]

Detroit is so vague.
Like inside the city limits, or in the sprawling metrapolis?
This matters. If your from basically an hours drive from WSU or such you say you are detroit which includes a ton of cities and counties and space.
Really great art (both fine art and music) scene.
Fun capoeira group (recommend the michigan center for capoeira)
Strong unions.
Amazing food.
Very unique culture, and very friendly people - a truer friendliness not the southern fakey hospitality freindliness.
You either love the area or you hate it. Not much between.
I appreciate Detroit now more than when i lived there (for 15 years), tbh.

But my job is to break unions...
I'll have to look for a different job. Snark aside, I disagree about the food quality. Examples
Sushi at Inyo is overpriced & average. The tacos at Imperial were disappointing. It felt very white, though I'm not sure if that's bias or not. She'll love the artsy stuff, if we ever find time.
I'll be looking within the 1 hour radius sooner than I thought.
Apparently my 401k Vesting schedule happened earlier than I anticipated.*

*I've consulted with a lawyer, and he thinks the Vesting status from the financial company servicing the 401k outweighs corporates policy documents. The hard part is obtaining proof without tipping my hand.

[Sungura]

You have to go to the hole in the wall places, and the areas within detroit where the people live who make the type of food you want. Don't be scared to be near or south of 8 mile. I've had the best chinese, indian, mexican, etc authentic foods there, oh and some amazing bbq, but you'll have to go outside your comfort zone to get to the best places most likely. Also, Coney Islands!!!
(fwiw, never heard of Inyo or Imperial, quick google and they look like posh places - naw - get out of your comfort zone to find the best stuff!)

[sardia]

She's... Conservative about where she travels. Not sure if it's abnormal or her just being female. Safety is her number one priority, which I think is a dog whistle for something. Also it's an expensive requirement.

We went to the Fresh Fish House chain, and they made us some breaded catfish. Very comparable to the ones in Chicago, maybe a tad more upscale.

Do you have any actual restaurants? I'm sure some will still be there despite the passage of time. I'm going there this weekend.

PS Chicago dog>>>Coney dog. Not even close. Chicago salad on a hot dog wins.

[sardia]

Quick update - Finished a phone interview, and they begin with a 25% pay cut as their starting offer. That's with longer hours, and more work. I dunno what's going on in Michigan. Is my current job really good , or does everyone else have a really awful job? Need to interview more to know what the job environment is like, but I can't waste too many opportunities just to learn.
Glassdoor estimated salary range is full of lies. At this point, I'm just doing it to get more interview practice in, but part of me says I should just politely decline.
The macro level job environment says I should push back harder, but that's averaging the retail slave together with the elite STEM grad. I'm gonna play it slow, but the mental strain of cheerfully working while prepping for interviews is so draining.

TLDR I oscillate between being really confident in my abilities, and thinking I'm at the bottom of the totem pole.

[ryanbryandyin]

Glassdoor estimated salary range is full of lies. At this point, I'm just doing it to get more interview practice in, but part of me says I should just politely decline.

Glassdoor's salary ranges are completely out of sync because they average out older salaries as well. In fields like technology, salaries have shot up a lot in the last 5-10 years and Glassdoor hasn't really been able to factor in that inflation. So generally, whatever Glassdoor says, add 25-50% on top of that for tech jobs - you'll get paid at least that in cash + benefits/stock options (and stock options for elite tech roles can be massively lucrative - a cousin managed to buy a house with just the 100 shares he gets every year from Amazon)

[ryanbryandyin]

You were the one who mentioned building a profile based on your purchases, but also needing credit for emergencies. Hence, getting a high limit credit card, that is stashed away.

Btw, I'm surprised nobody else commented as to how credit cards affect your credit score. Is it different in other countries?

This is very different in other countries. Credit cards are unusual here in the Netherlands, everybody uses debit cards. I have one for online purchases and travel convenience only, and it draws the due money from my account at the end of the month (that's as fast as possible).
When I bought a house the max counted as a pre-existing loan. I closed it down to remove that loan so I wouldn't risk blocking the mortgage (there was no trouble getting a new one after I bought the house).

It's the same in my country. Getting a credit card is hard. I'm self-employed and even though I make very good money, getting a credit card for me was difficult. In fact, the number of credit cards in circulation actually declined in the last few years.

The US has a very different approach to credit than much of the rest of the world. I was astonished when I went to the US to find that most people had thousands in credit card debt, and weren't even bothered by it.

I would not be able to sleep at night if I hadn't paid my credit card bill in full for that month.

Even with housing, the situation is very different here. Most mortgages last less than 10 years and it is common to pay up to 40% of the house value upfront. Forget subprime mortgages; our lenders are so scared of giving away cash that they'll ask you to furnish at least 25% of the value as a deposit.

And while we're on the subject of money, couldn't help but share this study I found yesterday.

A musician duo like The Chainsmokers can apparently earn what a software developer makes in his entire year in just one day. Makes me think that I chose the wrong profession!

[Raidri]

...

And while we're on the subject of money, couldn't help but share this study I found yesterday.

A musician duo like The Chainsmokers can apparently earn what a software developer makes in his entire year in just one day. Makes me think that I chose the wrong profession!

There are also thousands (millions?) of musicians worldwide who live from one gig to to next and earn less than your average software developer. And on the other hand you have software developers who founded there own company, got big and earn more than even the top musician (Gates, Zuckerberg). Though that tends to need more time than some musicians who got big "overnight".

[SecondTalon]

There are also thousands (millions?) of musicians worldwide who live from one gig to to next and earn less than your average software developer.

Nah.

They're doing good if they make minimum wage. Maybe as a five member band, if you add up the entire income of all five members, you maybe can hit that $100,000 a year.

Of course, at that point we're kinda quibbling over what exactly constitutes a "Musician" as most of those have real jobs that they either quit (because it's easy to pick up and drop work) or only tour when they're laid off for the season (like construction workers in the winter). The music is just a side thing they do with most of the money earned on that going to pay for the tour itself and if they're lucky, at the end of the month long regional tour they've got a couple extra hundred in their pocket.

[sardia]

Glassdoor's salary ranges are completely out of sync because they average out older salaries as well. In fields like technology, salaries have shot up a lot in the last 5-10 years and Glassdoor hasn't really been able to factor in that inflation. So generally, whatever Glassdoor says, add 25-50% on top of that for tech jobs - you'll get paid at least that in cash + benefits/stock options (and stock options for elite tech roles can be massively lucrative - a cousin managed to buy a house with just the 100 shares he gets every year from Amazon)

Office drones don't get salaries that are that good. So my industry is apparently worse. Whatever the average is, take 20% less. Well, I'll keep looking, and see who else is offering jobs in Detroit.

I agree with talon, most arts don't pay very much. Similar to how professional sports works. The top few get most of the pay, while there's a large base of underpaid workers who transition in and out.

[ryanbryandyin]

Glassdoor's salary ranges are completely out of sync because they average out older salaries as well. In fields like technology, salaries have shot up a lot in the last 5-10 years and Glassdoor hasn't really been able to factor in that inflation. So generally, whatever Glassdoor says, add 25-50% on top of that for tech jobs - you'll get paid at least that in cash + benefits/stock options (and stock options for elite tech roles can be massively lucrative - a cousin managed to buy a house with just the 100 shares he gets every year from Amazon)

Office drones don't get salaries that are that good. So my industry is apparently worse. Whatever the average is, take 20% less. Well, I'll keep looking, and see who else is offering jobs in Detroit.

I agree with talon, most arts don't pay very much. Similar to how professional sports works. The top few get most of the pay, while there's a large base of underpaid workers who transition in and out.

The interesting part about art is that it is very much possible to carve a niche that pays well enough, if not a lot.

I'm something of an amateur musician and have hung around the industry long enough. The people in the industry can be divided into two broad camps:

1. People who want to be stars and performers
2. Everyone else

The "winner takes all" thing is very much true for stars and performers. But the folks who work in the background - sessions musicians, songwriters, producers, sound engineers, even lighting and stage decoration folks - do quite well. I knew some producers who were making millions just recording and arranging songs for performers. I also knew some sessions musicians making respectable six-figure salaries playing music for others.

The broke musician archetype is true if you're looking at the front guys. But behind them, there is a very profitable industry filled with professionals who gave up the stardom dreams for steady paychecks

[Zohar]

I think when people think of art, they think of artists - the singers, painters, dancers. Not the producers, museum curators, or choreographers. Yeah, for every Beyonce there's at least a hundred people working with her, but I don't think that's what most people think of as working in "art". At most it's working in the art industry.