Wams chaos game day 5

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Vicarin
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Vicarin » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:57 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:I'm confident that Madge's behavior is not from a game mechanical restriction. It's very Madge. Whether it's sincere Madge or Madge pretending to be Madge is up for debate.


You're clearly leaving open the option for sincere Madge, which would mean that this behavior is 'Madge being Madge'. Are you now claiming that you're actually leaning towards the 2nd of those two options?

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Sabrar
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Sabrar » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:03 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:Plus there are still two other people not voting (why didn't you ask them to vote by the way?)
mpolo didn't really do any analysis so far and heury is completely unpredictable when it comes to being online.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Vicarin » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:03 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:No. It just looks for a reaction, trying to judge whether somitomi even noticed the tie or if he would offer to unvote should it become necessary.


Nope, I'm pretty sure it implies that pretty heavily. You don't get to just claim words don't mean stuff.

Sabrar wrote:Seriously? You think I'm trying to shut down voting several hours before deadline in a transparent way when several players are just coming online? Sure, if you say so... :roll:


I think you just spilled your wine all over the thread, you'll have to clean that up sometime.

Sabrar wrote:Well, I've done several things in the past not really understood by other people so this wouldn't be something new. But no, this was just a quick test, rendered ineffective by you.


Yeah, I wonder if anyone else has had people jump on them for misunderstanding something they did this game. Hmmmmmmmm :P

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Mark_Cangila » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:15 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:@Mark: if you reflect on the different circumstances of the two requests you should be able to figure it out for yourself.

Oh ok that makes sense now.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby mpolo » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:23 pm UTC

I went through the thread rereading Vicarin, plytho, Madge (because they have been objects of suspicion at some point or another).

Spoiler:
Vicarin
Smileyface after confirm. Setup spec, jester unlikely. Votes Boomfrog on “no one is town” post. Claims town. Wants opinions about boomfrog’s strangeness.

Bessie assumes lyncher. Would vote gambiting Boomfrog. Sabrar claimed the role from last game in a jokey way, boomfrog seems more serious, so is worse than Sabrar. Sabrar is not scum-hunting.

Why is bessie likely town? Why referring to mafia in singular? Questions. Prods Mark_Cangila. Doesn’t like my definition of faction. Why the wagon? Unimpressed by gambits. Defines gambit. What margin is safe on me? Complains about Mark_Cangila’s L-1 vote.

Explanations for Mark. Unvotes Sabrar. Mystery. Answering questions as fast as I can. Boom is either scum or pushing an ineffective gambit. Doesn’t like argument about wagon forming too quickly. Votes me. Scum ist BoomFrog, mpolo, Madge.

Argument with bessie about gambits. Role implies that it is unlikely a 3-man scumteam. Why did somitomi wait so long with observations about V? Madge not contributing much.

Argument with bessie continues. Somitomi looking good. Multiball, unlikely to have any 3+ person team. Bessie’s argument improves. Bessie is keeping this argument going. Explanations from Mark? More about gambits. What does Mark mean? Bessie avoiding question. Wants town reads from bessie. What does sabrar like about BoomFrog and Mark? Sabrar, explain reads!

Response to sabrar. Votes Madge to prod. It is hard to know if Mark is coached. Would Sabrar try to coach Mark? Does Mark have townie reads? More careless of rules because not scum. Ordered list (scum mpolo, Madge, BoomFrog) It is very likely (purely mathematically) that scum were on my wagon. People should vote. Adds somitomi to reads.

Posts too much on this page :(. Reads: Less worried about plytho. Asks about OP. Town-reading bessie. Triple votes should be considered. Paranoid about votals in general. Explains frustration of always having townie read of bessie. Somitomi is blending into background. Thinks Madge-Boomfrog aligned. Thinks tie will be resolved (RE: somitomi vote). Thinks Sabrar’s question was scummy.

plytho
Exclamation point on confirm. Joke vote mpolo. Notes two scum claims.

Questions Sabrar’s anti-town but not full scum. Defends gambiting. Likes tie-breaker rule. Sabrar seems to be claiming traitor still. No claim.

Vicarin dodging questions. Doesn’t like Sabrar’s traitor claim-unclaim. Counts votes. Can’t parse a h_a post. Response to moody RE: heury. Reads – scum Vicarin, moody, mpolo. Saves from L-1. Boomfrog is not playing carefully, so doesn’t have a tricky role.

Vicarin’S unvote is weird. My answer is not enough, shouldn’t be giving up.

Encourages me to scumhunt. Somitomi has weird edit. Mark is sliding a bit. Boomfrog is complimenting a bit much. Wants opinions from Mark. Why has moody moved BoomFrog from scum? Questioning somitomi.

Post suspicious because it says the same thing twice. Not sure what to make of somitomi’s strangeness. Busy.

Reads: inconsistency in BF (mpolo is unlikely mafia, but is in bottom 3) Also in H_a. Not so terrible for town to be lynched, maybe mpolo is indie. Likes BF stirring the pot, unsure of alignment.

No reason for unusual wording.

Madge
Joke confirm. Going to be fun. I love D1!

Votes bessie, but wants her to survive as long as possible.

Sheeps Sabrar.

Embracing CHAOS. Worried town is in a minoriy. Keeps sheeping. Waiting for D2 for reads.

Not serious about sheeping. Everyone looks OK right now. Waiting for D2.

CHAOS votes. Example of jester win ending game. How long was L-1? How many scum/team? Max 2?

Why I’m lazy. Avatar fixing. I am town. There is a method to madness. Meta Mafia was too much work. Will try to act seriously for rest of day.

Votes Boomfrog at his request. No reads today. Early scum claim was scummy. This is chaos.


I really don't like Madge's (barely) active lurking vibe. A little scummy in the things that are posted, but mostly lazy.

plytho is generally making contributions, a bit less over the weekend, but he cited real life reasons there. He also seems inclined to let me defend myself.

Vicarin is extremely active. I think the huge argument over gambits is more likely from a town on town place.

The inconsistency in BoomFrog noted by plytho is a little worrying. Happy that Sabrar is gradually moving me away from the scummy end.

I feel good about my town read on bessie still. BoomFrog, if scum, had little reason to defend me, unless he thought he could earn townie-points that way. plytho is probably toward the townie end of the spectrum. Vicarin has been quite active, though the amount of content is much lower than it appears, as much is just prodding questions.

I hope to do more still, but for now, my scum pick is Madge.

Vote: Madge
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Vicarin » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:26 pm UTC

Additional thoughts about bessie, in case of being lynched, for tomorrow:

I've been finding it rather strange that on her list of reasons for scum reading me, she has #4 listed as me being inflexibly asserting that there is not a 3 person scum team, but being unwilling to give a reason for this. Now, I've mentioned I've been making this assumption based on my role. I'd be willing to bet on multiball, or for there to be one particular kind of indie present if there's a single 3 person scum team. I can kind of understand her scum reading me for just that, at least for the misguided reason she gave. However, what I'm having a very, very hard time understanding is that when she says that I'm not giving a reason for my assumption and scum reading me for this, I'm not sure what she wants me to do. To me, this behavior would suggest that she wants me to claim why my role leads to this assumption, or even just claim what my role is. This is fishing, and if there's one thing bessie hates, it's fishing. I am truly baffled.

What's even more concerning is that if I'm the lynch target for today, I'm actually somewhat benefited by not claiming my role, because while town doesn't know what it loses out on, scum don't know what they don't have to worry about anymore. Hence, this setup is one of the few where I've been very strongly thinking about not claiming before getting lynched, as I've been worried about since I've had BoomFrog, bessie, and Sabrar stubbornly voting for me for most of the day. Conversely, this makes it even more valuable for scum to fish for information from town members, as this gives them access to knowledge that they would otherwise miss out on. I've been very, very hesitant to share any more information about my role because of this, beyond what I believe is a likely multiball setup, which is information I think should be publicized by town quickly, similarly to how a cult should be publicized. The way that, out of everyone, it's been bessie who is the person needling me to effectively claim in order to clarify the situation is worrying to me.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Sabrar » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:44 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:I'm actually somewhat benefited by not claiming my role, because while town doesn't know what it loses out on, scum don't know what they don't have to worry about anymore. Hence, this setup is one of the few where I've been very strongly thinking about not claiming before getting lynched
I find this logic baffling. Anytime a mislynched townie doesn't claim scum will not know their role, why would this particular game be so special? And if you're referring to your super-secret-special-role then scum probably wouldn't worry about it anyway because they wouldn't guess it's in the setup.

Vicarin wrote:beyond what I believe is a likely multiball setup, which is information I think should be publicized by town quickly, similarly to how a cult should be publicized.
You claimed that you had reason to truly believe multiball because of your role on page 5, 3 days after game-start. Instead of saying 'Multiball seems decently likely at least' you could have made this a lot more clearer in your opening post if you were truly interested in sharing this.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Vicarin » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:49 pm UTC

What exactly do you think gets revealed on a flip this game, Sabrar?

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Sabrar » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:53 pm UTC

wam wrote:All that will be revealed is alignment and character name

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Sabrar » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:54 pm UTC

Not sure why I have to keep quoting the rules for you.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Sabrar » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:55 pm UTC

#sarcasm

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Vicarin » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:55 pm UTC

So if someone dies without claiming, no-one knows their role. Unlike basically every other game here, seeing as that's usually revealed on a flip.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby plytho » Mon Sep 10, 2018 2:55 pm UTC

I've had a day filled with training which left me little time to read but my mind did wander to the game. It wandered to a place where I feel like I'm missing something from BoomFrog (Thanks Sabrar for questioning me on him). I'm going to try and take a good look at Vicarin now (and the people voting for him).

I like that mpolo posted an opinion!
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Sabrar » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:01 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:So if someone dies without claiming, no-one knows their role. Unlike basically every other game here, seeing as that's usually revealed on a flip.
But scum wouldn't know it for the first night in either case and after that they might be able to figure it out based on claims and possible rolecop results. Except a truly special role which as I said they wouldn't be worried about anyway.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby plytho » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:02 pm UTC

Unofficial votals

BoomFrog - 1 - Madge
Mpolo - 2 - plytho, moody7277
Vicarin - 3 - boomfrog, sabrar, Bessie
Madge - 4 - mark_cangila, Vicarin, somitomi, mpolo


Not voting: heuristically_alone

Not playing day 1: jimbobmacdoodle
6 to lynch.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Vicarin » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:07 pm UTC

They 'might' be able to, with their 'possible' rolecop? Or, you know, we can probably force them to fly blind if we play this well.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Sabrar » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:12 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:They 'might' be able to, with their 'possible' rolecop? Or, you know, we can probably force them to fly blind if we play this well.
So this 'heavily implies' that nobody ever claims anything, right? At least according to your own pov. How do you plan to communicate our results in that case?

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Vicarin » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:27 pm UTC

You'd claim results when they're relevant and provide an overall benefit to town, compared to not claiming? I mean, when else do you claim? It's just that the benefit for not claiming this game is higher than it usually is, so it needs to be taken into account. For example, a watcher may not choose to claim before getting lynched D1, so that scum don't know they don't have to play around that particular ability anymore. Or, you just hold all the results until a mass claim inevitably happens, at which point there's no value in holding anything back. I'm not exactly sure why you'd think I'm suggesting never claiming under any circumstances.

Do you really think that earlyish claims are good in this setup? Do you really think witholding claims won't handicap scum significantly?

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Sabrar » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:44 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:why would this particular game be so special?
This was precisely my point but you don't seem to understand.

Vicarin wrote:we can probably force them to fly blind if we play this well.
The difference you imply happens only during the mislynches. At least that's what you seem to be saying, is that correct? Otherwise we would follow the same old procedure for claiming as always.

You said that words mean stuff, emphasizing we can force scum to fly blind implies more than just allowing mislynches without claims. And no, I don't think that would handicap scum. Surely not significantly.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby somitomi » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:51 pm UTC

Quick phone post:
I have to help someone with a jammed car handbrake, I might not be back before deadline as planned. Sorry about that
—◯-◯

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Vicarin » Mon Sep 10, 2018 3:56 pm UTC

Really need to sleep soon, so some final thoughts in case of death:

- Sabrar's arguments here are goddamn ridiculous. Hold him accountable.

- bessie has been dancing around issues like fishing for my role and saying that I'm trying to waste her time when the question I asked takes 15 seconds to answer and demonstrates how often such gambits are going to seem "successful", just by chance.

- Trust plytho? Maybe moody? Hell, there's so much weird behaviour this game that is incredibly scummy, I'm having trouble getting many town reads. Could easily be how the setup works though, annoyingly, with it being bastard.

- Get jimbobmacdoodle to do a huuuuuuuge post at the start of day listing everything he thought about D1 before any sort of significant input from other people.

Ninja'd: scum won't get any information from the NKs, and if we allow mislynches without claims, then that seals off the rest of their information. If you seriously don't think this would be a right pain for scum to deal with, then I don't know what to tell you. The fact that we can attempt to do this at all makes this game really special, because it's usually completely impossible!

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Sabrar » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:03 pm UTC

If this is multiball then game might end in very few days, making any advantage coming from no claims insignificant (no flips doesn't apply because it would happen anyway). Maybe try actually arguing instead of just calling my points ridiculous?

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby BoomFrog » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:12 pm UTC

plytho wrote:ping
moody7277 wrote:pong
@plytho and moody: the mpolo lynch isn't going to happen. You should vote for Madge or Vicarin.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby plytho » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:17 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
plytho wrote:ping
moody7277 wrote:pong
@plytho and moody: the mpolo lynch isn't going to happen. You should vote for Madge or Vicarin.
Vicarin isn't going to happen, you should vote mpolo or Madge.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby plytho » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:19 pm UTC

Some thoughts on the available wagons:
BoomFrog: not really a proper wagon with one vote, although, could be my second choice if I can confirm my gut read
mpolo: I know this is a little harsh after his last post with opinions, but I still find his lack of scumhunting in his earlier posts concerning enough to keep my vote on him
Vicarin: Have to do that proper read. Boomfrog, bessie and Sabrar are quite a formidable combo, though.
Madge: Hate to vote Madge D1, but since she's the main wagon I probably won't have to.


Vicarin: A lot of Vicarin's content is his discussion with bessie and the one with Sabrar happening right now. I don't think these discusions indicate scumminess as Vicarin is finding the time to talk about other things. I haven't really followed the argument between him and bessie as I don't think a disagreement about probabilities is indicative of scum either way and probabilities make my head hurt. The current discussion with Sabrar is similar. It's a disagreement about strategy but I don't see the scumminess. I like his reads list, it looks pretty open and honest. (I don't like his attitude towards Madge, she can play the game however she wants, I like the avatar!)

Bessie's arguments against vic aren't convincing me. BoomFrog barely has any. I don't have time to check out Sabrar's arguments but this latest discussion isn't convincing me.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby BoomFrog » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:22 pm UTC

Vicarin is grasping wildly at straws here. His scum-hunting is all focused on spurious connections.

His huge amount of effort on Bessie was a big waste of time. Yes, she seems very townie on D1 and we won't really be able to sort her until later in the game. Accept that and move on, she won't be lynched D1, it's not worth ranting for two pages about. And you aren't going to be the super genius who suddenly cracks the Bessie code.

He finds me scummy because I pulled a gambit D1. And he knew it was a gambit from the beginning. Every game he's played with me I have been town and I've pulled a gambit D1. Him finding that scummy is only explainable as him looking for people to attack and then sticking to his guns even after his logic falls apart.

His recent criticism of Sabrar is out of no where. Asking why people vote is extremely typical Sabrar behavior (and a good scum hunting practice). At this point Vic has simply attacked each person who is voting for him. It's purely fueled by OMGUS. (Explanation for Mark's benefit: Oh My God You Suck is the feeling of thinking people who attack you must be scum. It's often not true, and OMGUS is stronger in scum since they have fewer other reasons to find people actually scummy).
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby BoomFrog » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:28 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:- Sabrar's arguments here are goddamn ridiculous. Hold him accountable.

Even if Sabrar is wrong, he's arguments are certainly not ridiculous. His points are at the very least reasonable and worth considering. Look at Vicaran's tone for the last few pages. It's extremely confrontational. A townie would be doing final analysis and trying to stay objective. He is on the attack and fighting desperately in every direction. Much more like scum who has been caught D1, again, and desperately wants to at least live one more day so as to reduce the shame of being caught D1 two games in a row.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby Sabrar » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:41 pm UTC

As much as I don't like Madge's D1 this game, the sudden push on her just as deadline approaches concerns me a lot, especially since both Vicarin and mpolo are on her wagon (plus somitomi who was saved by Vicarin to give an honest answer regarding his reasons). I'm offline for the next hour/90 minutes, will check back as soon as I can.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby BoomFrog » Mon Sep 10, 2018 4:45 pm UTC

mpolo wrote:Vicarin is extremely active. I think the huge argument over gambits is more likely from a town on town place.

Why? You think it is reasonable that Vic concluded that I am scum based on my gambit? I am at the very bottom of his scum list (and I'm sure he'd vote for me if he thought he could get support for it).
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby somitomi » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:34 pm UTC

Okay, I'm back.
Sabrar wrote:plus somitomi who was saved by Vicarin to give an honest answer regarding his reasons.

Vicarin's "meddling" doesn't make my answer any less than 100% honest although I probably can't convince you.
—◯-◯

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby somitomi » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:56 pm UTC

Ooookay, Vicarin flew off the handle a bit there and it seems to be quite OMGUS-heavy. This whole argument with Sabrar is concerning :?
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby plytho » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:01 pm UTC

Ugh, I'm a little frustrated by my lack of time/clarity right now. Boomfrog's arguments are convincing but I don't entirely agree on point two and three.

I should have more time D2.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby somitomi » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:10 pm UTC

Vicarin looks pretty bad to me now, but I just don't know if scum would put themselves in the center of attention like that. On the other hand, lurking is a pretty weak scum-tell. Ugh, and I can basically decide the lynch if I switch, but I don't know if I should...
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby wam » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:20 pm UTC

votals
Mpolo - 2 - plytho, moody7277
Vicarin - 3 - boomfrog, sabrar, Bessie
Madge - 4 - mark_cangila. Vicarin, somitomi, mpolo
Boomfrog - 1 - Madge
Not voting: heuristically_alone

Not playing day 1: jimbobmacdoodle
6 to lynch.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby BoomFrog » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:38 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:Vicarin looks pretty bad to me now, but I just don't know if scum would put themselves in the center of attention like that. On the other hand, lurking is a pretty weak scum-tell. Ugh, and I can basically decide the lynch if I switch, but I don't know if I should...

Not to be mean, but Vic is very new at being scum and he's not very good at it yet. He has only been scum once before and he got caught D1 and had to claim cop to survive. Don't expect him to have several layers of manipulative thinking. Also, the fact that it has been quite difficult to drum up support of the Vic lynch, but the mpolo lynch and Madge lynch took off with barely a push is a good sign.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby plytho » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:38 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:He finds me scummy because I pulled a gambit D1.
His reads list has some other points that I liked. This is an oversimplification imho.
BoomFrog wrote: Oh My God You Suck is the feeling of thinking people who attack you must be scum. It's often not true, and OMGUS is stronger in scum since they have fewer other reasons to find people actually scummy
That's kind of contradictory. Generally scum know the people pressuring them are town so they won't feel like they are being attacked by scum. While town know whoever is attacking them is wrong about them and thus they are at risk of omgus.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby plytho » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:42 pm UTC

Crap, I don't like the Madge lynch.

Vote: Vicarin
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby plytho » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:44 pm UTC

I was really hoping this would work.
plytho wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:@plytho and moody: the mpolo lynch isn't going to happen. You should vote for Madge or Vicarin.
Vicarin isn't going to happen, you should vote mpolo or Madge.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby plytho » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:44 pm UTC

Somitomi, join please!
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Re: Wams chaos game day 1

Postby mpolo » Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:45 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
mpolo wrote:Vicarin is extremely active. I think the huge argument over gambits is more likely from a town on town place.

Why? You think it is reasonable that Vic concluded that I am scum based on my gambit? I am at the very bottom of his scum list (and I'm sure he'd vote for me if he thought he could get support for it).


The argument between bessie and Vic just struck me that way. That Vicarin could be making a wrong conclusion because of this argument doesn't really affect this.

For clarity (and not a semi-random lynch): Unvote: Madge
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