Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 3 - An Unexpected Twist)

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BoomFrog
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby BoomFrog » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:13 am UTC

I think we should not claim suits yet. If we do, we should make scummy people claim suits first, which means we need to do some scum hunting first.

Also, I'm not seeing the upside of locking in suit claims before full claims...
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SuperJedi224
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby SuperJedi224 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:36 am UTC

Zenii wrote:How much?


I played in one round that was hosted by a user from the old Brawl in the Family forum, though the actual game took place on its own separate forum; plus at least one round on a different forum as well (I think it might have been the original Ninjakiwi forum). I guess it's been a while since I played it as a forum game though.

Of course, I've also played a few different variants in person.

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Sabrar
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:32 am UTC

Mark_Cangila wrote:I mean I don't understand how it is supposed to help with safe claims.
Mafia can't have face-cards as safe-claims.

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Vicarin
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:36 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Also, I'm not seeing the upside of locking in suit claims before full claims...


Really? Would have thought you'd be fine working through the logic...

A is Mafia, and has a safeclaim that is a Heart. We force claims, and they say they're a Heart. Later on, a Heart PR flips. Now, A cannot claim to be that kind of PR to try to wriggle out of a lynch, because they've precommitted to being a Heart with our D1 suit claims.

This is assuming that the safeclaims that mafia receive don't include any PR safeclaims, but that would probably be pretty bastard for a newbie game.

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Sabrar
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:39 am UTC

Zenii wrote:We should claim suits now. There's no down side. Well there is one, but it's minuscule. The advantage of reducing scums' flexibility wrt claiming is greater.
Vicarin wrote:@Zenii: I don't know if I'd call it miniscule, but yeah, I think the benefits are worth it.
The downside is on the same scale as the advantage it would provide us. This is definitely not clear-cut.

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Vicarin
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:51 am UTC

I know it's not clear cut, but I think it's probably worth it.

Downside: Mafia can slightly narrow down who's a PR by realising that any pair of people of the same suit can't be the same kind of PR.

However, this can also be slightly mitigated by any possible town Aces lying about their suits, because they've got better ways of confirming themselves anyway (if a pair of mafia want to try to pretend to be a pair of masons, then they're braver than I am, and pretending to be an innocent child is just stupid).

Realistically, we'll have on average 3 town of each suit, so any possible PR overlap that Mafia can draw significant information is decently unlikely.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:57 am UTC

True, but the upside is equally small. Only helps if Mafia wants to false-claim a face-card and there is already filpped town PR of that suit. And even then Mafia can claim another PR.

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Sabrar
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:39 am UTC

BoomFrog wrote:Although since the setup is so randomized, one or two random modkills D1 doesn't actually change the balance of the game I think.
Could you explain this? How do you arrive at the second part from the first?

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby somitomi » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:44 am UTC

moody7277 wrote:
Vote: somitomi

for being so good being scum last game.

Hey, you were pretty good as non-town too.
Vicarin wrote:Funnily enough, I was wondering if we should go further than the suit claim on claiming a PR (which I think is clearly a good idea): is it beneficial for everyone to claim their suits D1?

Not this again... :lol:
Sabrar wrote:
Mark_Cangila wrote:I mean I don't understand how it is supposed to help with safe claims.
Mafia can't have face-cards as safe-claims.

Why are you so sure about that?
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:47 am UTC

Can't you guess?

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Vicarin
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:48 am UTC

You're mafia so you know everyone's safe claims? :lol:

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:54 am UTC

Nope, try again.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:03 am UTC

Dang, I was so sure. :P

Ok, did you ask LaserGuy?

Actually, may as well try to confirm.

Was it possible for any Mafia to receive a face card as a safe claim?

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:13 am UTC

The correct question is:

Does Mafia have any kind of additional information about the actual PR-roles that Town have?

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:20 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:Was it possible for any Mafia to receive a face card as a safe claim?

Sabrar wrote:Does Mafia have any kind of additional information about the actual PR-roles that Town have?


No comment.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:26 am UTC

You've got some explaining to do then Sabrar.

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Sabrar
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:44 am UTC

This is a semi-open setup with no bastardry. This means that áll information should be disclosed up-front. There is no mention of scum receiving any info about townie PR-s so they shouldn't (and mod should have confirmed this). Scum receiving e.g. the King of Hearts as a false claim would mean that they know town doesn't have it. Therefore they would know that Town can't have 3 Vig-s. But they should not have this info, meaning scum can't have face cards as false claims.
This is a pretty easy deduction.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby wam » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:49 am UTC

somitomi wrote:
Sabrar wrote:
Mark_Cangila wrote:I mean I don't understand how it is supposed to help with safe claims.
Mafia can't have face-cards as safe-claims.

Why are you so sure about that?


Townie points to somi as this is the exact question that I was going to ask.

Sabrar wrote:This is a semi-open setup with no bastardry. This means that áll information should be disclosed up-front. There is no mention of scum receiving any info about townie PR-s so they shouldn't (and mod should have confirmed this). Scum receiving e.g. the King of Hearts as a false claim would mean that they know town doesn't have it. Therefore they would know that Town can't have 3 Vig-s. But they should not have this info, meaning scum can't have face cards as false claims.
This is a pretty easy deduction.


I disagree with this. I can see the mod giving scum unused town power role safe claims. It's not as if knowing that there isn't 3 vig s in the game is ground breaking in any way.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:50 am UTC

That's a deduction, but that logic isn't completely airtight. Despite what you've said, it's still possible for them to have such a safeclaim, even if it is really, really unlikely. You're also making assumptions about the setup based on what you think would make it balanced, as bessie has noted many times.

Actually, the most interesting thing was that you seemed sure that we would get a mod answer that would clarify the situation...

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby wam » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:52 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:Actually, the most interesting thing was that you seemed sure that we would get a mod answer that would clarify the situation...


Why would this be alignment indicative?

Side note. Based on chaos sabrar does tend to ask the mod in private before asking in thread!
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Vicarin
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:55 am UTC

wam wrote:
Vicarin wrote:Actually, the most interesting thing was that you seemed sure that we would get a mod answer that would clarify the situation...


Why would this be alignment indicative?


Did I say it was? :P

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby plytho » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:56 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:Actually, the most interesting thing was that you seemed sure that we would get a mod answer that would clarify the situation...
I think this implies Sabrar is either town or scum has no pr-safe claims. But I'm strongly leaning town tbh.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:57 am UTC

Why is it interesting if it's NAI?

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby bessie » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:00 am UTC

Welcome SuperJedi! It’s always great having new players. I see you have some experience playing mafia on other forums. If you have any questions regarding gameplay on this forum just ask and someone will answer.

Welcome back Zenii, I was so excited when I saw your name in sign ups!

I was very busy today and need to be at work early tomorrow, but I will try to set aside time for this tomorrow night. Some quick thoughts.

plytho wrote:Vote: Mark_Cangila

I've been scum with him so I don't need a lot to read him.
Apparently not even a confirmation post.

Vicarin wrote:@SuperJedi: why'd you use a D12?
Really? What was he supposed to use? Pre-post edit, yes, some us do use actual physical dice.

Zenii wrote:We should claim suits now.
In general, I’m against claiming, even more so because Vicarin supports it. :P

BoomFrog wrote:I think we should not claim suits yet. If we do, we should make scummy people claim suits first, which means we need to do some scum hunting first.
Agree with BoomFrog that we should currently be focusing on scum hunting.

Ninja'd.
Vicarin wrote: You're also making assumptions about the setup based on what you think would make it balanced, as bessie has noted many times.
+1, QFT, dude you read my mind.

Ninja'd again but I need to get some sleep.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:03 am UTC

Well, partially because it implies that LaserGuy might have changed his answers, which is interesting and has nothing to do with anyone's alignment. But yes, mostly because I'd say it's a decent town indication.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:20 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:You're also making assumptions about the setup based on what you think would make it balanced, as bessie has noted many times.
This is a pointless discussion but it has nothing to do with balance, just how a semi-open setup with no bastardry should work.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby plytho » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:32 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:Well, partially because it implies that LaserGuy might have changed his answers, which is interesting and has nothing to do with anyone's alignment. But yes, mostly because I'd say it's a decent town indication.
How does LaserGuy changing his answer have nothing to do with alignment? Why is it a town indication?
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:40 am UTC

You're going to have to explain to me why a mod possibly deciding to change their answer to a question has anything to do with the alignment of players first. And I'd say that it's considerably more likely that Sabrar was town who confident he'd sorted out something important pregame, rather than mafia setting up this amazing series of questions in order to make him just look like that. Why are you reading him as town?

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby plytho » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:01 am UTC

I can imagine a mod answering a question to scum but giving no-comment publicly but I can't imagine the same with town. I don't think this happened here and there's no way of knowing, but I do think actually changing answers can be alignment indicative.

I think Sabrar is likely town because of the no comment reply from LaserGuy. This implies Sabrar hasn't asked the question before and is basing his points on his reasoning about what semi open and non bastard means.

I don't think scum Sabrar would ask a question revealing information about safe claims as it exposes scum weaknesses. Whereas town Sabrar is very motivated to do that.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby wam » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:34 am UTC

plytho wrote:I can imagine a mod answering a question to scum but giving no-comment publicly but I can't imagine the same with town. I don't think this happened here and there's no way of knowing, but I do think actually changing answers can be alignment indicative.

I think Sabrar is likely town because of the no comment reply from LaserGuy. This implies Sabrar hasn't asked the question before and is basing his points on his reasoning about what semi open and non bastard means.

I don't think scum Sabrar would ask a question revealing information about safe claims as it exposes scum weaknesses. Whereas town Sabrar is very motivated to do that.


The paranoid part of me can see scum sabrar asking the mod what the public answer would be and then asking publically fornthe points but i agree its unlikely.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby plytho » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:39 pm UTC

wam wrote:The paranoid part of me can see scum sabrar asking the mod what the public answer would be and then asking publically fornthe points but i agree its unlikely.
Yeah, or he might think he knows the answer because he knows what the fake claims are but thinks town!Sabrar would ask the question so he did it anyway. [/paranoia]
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby moody7277 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:18 pm UTC

Trying to think through Sabrar's point on scum safe claims, and his linchpin is scum not having extra info. This is kind of scum's whole deal though. Being so gloriously off with it that he's second guessing the mod is kind of townie. I do think there will be a point where suit-claiming is appropriate, just not yet.

BoomFrog saying "no gambit this time, let's go straight to scumhunting" is certainly counter to his recent activity. Not sure what to make of that yet.
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BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby plytho » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:26 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:Trying to think through Sabrar's point on scum safe claims, and his linchpin is scum not having extra info. This is kind of scum's whole deal though.
As I understand it we're talking about the meaning of semi-open. Sabrar's interpretation seems to be that semi-open means scum has extra info, but we know exactly what kind of extra info. Specifically scum know which powers they have and we know they know that.

The issue here is that we don't know what info they have about our pr's through the false claims.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 3:33 pm UTC

plytho wrote:Yeah, or he might think he knows the answer because he knows what the fake claims are but thinks town!Sabrar would ask the question so he did it anyway. [/paranoia]
Usually people are not very good at guessing what questions I would ask. I suggest not spending too much time on this.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby BoomFrog » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:06 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:Although since the setup is so randomized, one or two random modkills D1 doesn't actually change the balance of the game I think.
Could you explain this? How do you arrive at the second part from the first?

My reading of the setup was that cards were dealt randomly and we got an average of 1/4th scum but could have more or less. Although the chance of having only 1 scum of 5 scum seems not newbie friendly so I should probably reread the setup. And... there it is in the first sentence. So nevermind...

Now the "irony" comment is even more confusing... Wam, please explain.
wam wrote:So setup speculation I'm guessing 9-3 (irony).

What exactly were you thinking and saying in this sentence? Please be honest and detailed.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:12 pm UTC

Lol, that completely reversed my read on you.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:20 pm UTC

François:
I do not understand this game. What is the purpose of the empty chair? Why do they get cards? Why do they have money?


Kipp:
Somebody is supposed to be sitting there. I'll try to figure out who it is. We may need to grab somebody from the audience to fill the seat. Looks bad for the cameras to leave it empty for too long.


mpolo has not yet picked up his role PM. If he has not done so within 24 hours, he will be replaced.

Votecount:

Sabrar (2): wam, Mark
Vic (1): Superjedi
BoomFrog (1): somitomi
wam (1): Sabrar
Superjedi (1): BoomFrog
somitomi (1): moody
Mark_Cangila (1): plytho
plytho (1): Vic

Not voting: bessie, mpolo, Zenii

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BoomFrog
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby BoomFrog » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:21 pm UTC

Regarding suit claiming. I agree scum may have face-card claims. My LaserGuy clone trapped in my computer's pocket dimension simulation says that telling us there are safe-claims is sufficiently open and literally is the act of telling town that scum know specific roles that town doesn't have. What's really interesting is the ripple of people who quickly accepted Sabrar is town from this line of questioning. (I agree btw). I think Vicarin is also town, but I didn't get a good feeling from plytho, wam or moody. (still well within the uncertain territory)

The reason I don't like suit claiming is because a mafioso who claims nearly last might get a chance to see a suit is fairly empty and then take the chance of claiming a face-card in that empty suit. I'd rather force scum to stick to their safe-claims which presumably were given randomly and are likely to be vanilla claims.
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Sabrar
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:22 pm UTC

On second thought you might have misread it as either alignment.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Thu Oct 11, 2018 4:24 pm UTC

Was ninjad, woofing that post very much.


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