Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 3 - An Unexpected Twist)

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Mark_Cangila
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:58 pm UTC

Yeah (not that I should be talking)

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby plytho » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:42 pm UTC

Bessie, could you please respond to this?

I have two hours on a train tomorrow evening that I'll dedicate to catching up on the game and make a proper reads list. Sorry about my activity level. D2 will be a lot better.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby somitomi » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:50 pm UTC

I guess it's high time to
Unvote
bessie wrote:
somitomi wrote:
Sabrar wrote:
somitomi wrote:because I don't agree with Sabrar on PR safeclaims being bastard. They don't give that much information to scum and the whole premise of the game is that scum has more info than town anyway. I don't see it causing too much harm either though.
Did you consider the fact that town is usually disinclined to lynch a PR-claim in a game with lots of VT-s?

No, but I don't remember you (or anyone else) mentioning it before. Fair point though.
Hmm, it seems there was a lot of discussion related to this in Newbie New Year, where your tracker claim saved you from being lynched. So I am suspicious that it supposedly never occurred to you.

I genuinely can't recall much from that game or most any game I've played besides the last one or two.
Mark_Cangila wrote:A lot of randomness mostly. Plus a quick deluge in D1 that feels way faster than other games.

You call this a lot of randomness after Chaos?

I think I agree with Zenii regarding the slip BoomFrog found.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby moody7277 » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:02 pm UTC

Unvote

Random vote stage over. Two things worrying me. First is that I don't want to lynch a lurker, especially since this game is supposed to be for newbies like him. But I have no data on SuperJedi, and several other people with town or near town reads. Second is that I'm not auto-reading bessie as town. I'd like to think this is only because of her recent games have made me open to the possibility of scum!bessie.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:49 pm UTC

Mark_Cangila wrote:Why do you think I want a scummy meta? I like playing scum, as I have said, but I never said I want a scummy meta.


Ah, right, Madge was giving advice on how to have a scummy meta at the end of WoT3 after you said you liked playing scum, but you didn't respond. I'm getting the vague feeling that you're town, but it's hard to tell the difference between your play as town and play as scum...

Sabrar wrote:@Vicarin: who are your scum-reads?


Right now?

Plytho is still not looking great in terms of contributions compared to what I think they normally put out, but this may be coloured by the lack of time that they've been claiming to have. I'll reevaluate after he posts the promised catchup reads post.

SuperJedi's lurking is really getting on my nerves and is coming off as blatantly scummy. Like, if you were a newbie you didn't know how much content you need to do, that's fine, I'll revise my expectations down a bit. But I KNOW he's posting in the forum games section so it's not as if he has no time :P. Also, stuff like
SuperJedi224 wrote:So I guess I'm supposed to try posting here more often.

is just annoying because if you know this, just do it! Don't comment on it! How on earth is that post remotely useful?

Zen(ii) is still acting very much weirdly to me, I don't buy his claimed reason for the posting style that much (if you're town, don't choose to copy a game where you almost got lynched D1 after needing to fake claim cop). By now, he should have a decently big analysis post, if Stellaris, and even the linked other game are anything to go on.

Mostly everyone else is somewhat nebulously townie in that their behavior is fairly consistent with their town play. I think the towniest people are probably BoomFrog, bessie, and moody.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby SuperJedi224 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:25 am UTC

bessie wrote:If you are having difficulty finding something to comment on, it might be helpful to make a reads list.


I may try putting one together tomorrow.

Vicarin wrote:SuperJedi's lurking is really getting on my nerves


This is partly a result of the slower game format (compared to the other variants I've played) and partly that I really don't have much I really want to say at the moment. Also, I hadn't really noticed that part of the rules until yesterday.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:28 am UTC

You've got absolutely no thoughts on anyone's behaviour or the setup? bessie has already pointed out why town with no content are a massive liability late game, do you think you're helping town right now?

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:29 am UTC


Kipp:
So François, what do you think of the action so far?

François:
As I told you, I have never played this game.

Kipp (whispers): You are being paid almost twenty thousand dollars to give commentary on a Poker tournament. The producers have damn well insisted that you do.

François: Ah, very well. I notice that a lot of the players seem to be still feeling each other out. We have not seen any, uh, what did you call it, the "all in".

Kipp: Well, it's still early in the game.

François: How many hands to they play in these tournaments?

Kipp: A few thousand, probably.

François: Mon Dieu.



Votecount:

Sabrar (2): wam, Mark
Vic (1): Superjedi
BoomFrog (1): somitomi
wam (1): Sabrar
Superjedi (2): BoomFrog, Zenii
plytho (1): Vic

Not voting: bessie, moody, mpolo, plytho

Deadline in 2 days, 10 hours.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:37 am UTC

I have a vague feeling that bessie, Mark and Vicarin are co-aligned.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:43 am UTC

Well, I have that feeling too, so that's nice :D

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby bessie » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:52 am UTC

Some brief reads. There are a few players that are very light on content, but hopefully they will post and I can update this list.

BoomFrog – Is BoomFrog? Re the modkill comment in his first post, claims to have misread the setup description (my feeling that this in itself is NAI). Noting for now BoomFrog didn’t seem too worried about losing mpolo and/or Mark. Has been prodding people for content, but has only shared some of his opinions on others.

Mark_Cangila – Is hard to read. Because his low level of content and because he hasn’t given many opinions on other players. I have already made some suggestions (and so have others) about sharing your thoughts.

moody7277 – Is moody? Has a neutral read of me me me, and that concerns him. moody I never asked you to auto-town read me all these years, and prodded you about it even before Secret Santa. I don’t mind being not-town read, but it should be based on my content, not just because you’re concerned about town reading me.

mpolo – Is busy? Like BoomFrog, didn’t read the game setup carefully. Interesting note, that BoomFrog credits mpolo with a town slip for this. mpolo’s content is light, even for him, but at least he manages to give opinions on a few players.

plytho – Is busy. Labels Sabrar town over the mod question thing. 100% of plytho's content so far this game has been related to this, and he wants to further discuss it with me (see here). I think plytho would be in a better position to demand content from others if he provided some himself.

Sabrar – Is Sabrar? His content feels light for Sabrar, but it could just feel that way because wam preempted the anticipated eight page argument in his first post. I don’t agree with Sabrar’s safe claim evaluation, and his meta read of me has been discussed.

somitomi – Is lurking? Appeared in his first post to be anxious for the game to begin, but his content has been mostly single line questions and replies. I am suspicious of his reply to me in this post. I don’t expect everyone to have Sabrar-level recall of past games but his blanket claim seems off.

SuperJedi224 – Is lurking. We’re asking you questions and giving you suggestions to help you generate some content. Is there anything you would like to know from us? This is a newbie game and we’re all here to help you out. What concerns me about you is that from your posts, I think you know and understand this. You’re being given some “newbie allowance” but in return you have to try.

Vicarin – Is not lurking. Interesting that moody’s short read of me was “maybe some residual antagonism vs Vicarin from last game” because I try not start my games that way (though I can be guilty of dragging up the past later). I’ve already stated my concern with his attempt at meta reading in this post. I think I understand where he is coming from with his reply, except that I don't see it as a strong enough reason in itself for a plytho vote.

wam – Is sleeping? That was his excuse Saturday for being quiet in this post. Town reads Sabrar for mod question, and somitomi based on this. Please wake up and reply to this.

Zenii – Is back. This game’s random selected playstyle is “wakizashi” so his content is terse. Yes his playstyle is different from when he has played with us in the past. He is not driving content but he is asking and answering questions.

Woof-Grr tomorrow.

Ninja'd by Sabrar, Vicarin.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby wam » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:31 am UTC

bessie wrote:

wam wrote:It's not about content leveks I agree vicarin content is high irrespective of alignment but I can't see scum Vic do it the diging through past games.
Hmm. It is true that my comments were based on my impression of Vicarin’s personality, as Vicarin does not have a lot of meta to read yet. Also note that this type of meta read is not my strong area (as I’ve said many times previously). However, it is my opinion that your reasoning is (1) lazy, (2) faulty, (3) false, or (4) all of the above.


Not really sure what response you were looking for. I disagree I Think it is alignment indicative.

Town
Sabrar
Vicarin
Somi

Leaning town
Bessie
Mpolo
Moody
Plytho

Neutral
Zenii
Mark

Scum
Boom
Jedi

I can't shake the impression I have of a boom Jedi team. I also feel town newbie Jedi would be putting more content put there trying to figure the game out.

unvote

Vote boomfrog
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:34 am UTC

Who would be the third member of a BoomFrog SuperJedi team?

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Zenii » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:54 am UTC

Zenii wrote:
wam wrote:If your scum he's scum. I don't see scum boomfrog going after a newbie town beginning of day 1.
Why is this?
Wam, please answer this.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby wam » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:57 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:Who would be the third member of a BoomFrog SuperJedi team?


I haven't worked that out yet.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:59 am UTC

Unvote
Vote: bessie


Sheep me for an easy win.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:03 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:Sheep me for an easy win.


:roll:

Why'd you ask me about my scum reads?

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby wam » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:19 am UTC

Zenii wrote:
Zenii wrote:
wam wrote:If your scum he's scum. I don't see scum boomfrog going after a newbie town beginning of day 1.
Why is this?
Wam, please answer this.


As scum boom knowing he is one of the more experienced after would view going after newbie town day1 as unfair.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby wam » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:20 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:Unvote
Vote: bessie


Sheep me for an easy win.


Where's the fun in that!

Seriously why Bessie?
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:24 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:Why'd you ask me about my scum reads?
Because you were defending bessie with faulty math. There is no way you are left with 11 relevant games after you remove those where conf-post analysis had no role to play.
Also why shouldn't I ask you about your scum-reads? Did you not want to share them?

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:29 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:There is no way you are left with 11 relevant games after you remove those where conf-post analysis had no role to play.
Also why shouldn't I ask you about your scum-reads? Did you not want to share them?


I'd like to see how you divide those games into those 4 categories after removing the ones where the analysis wasn't relevant then, if you take so much issue with how I did.

I was asking about the scum reads as it seemed more like you were just asking me something randomly to look like you were doing something, rather than usefully hunting.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Zenii » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:40 am UTC

wam wrote:
Zenii wrote:
Zenii wrote:
wam wrote:If your scum he's scum. I don't see scum boomfrog going after a newbie town beginning of day 1.
Why is this?
Wam, please answer this.


As scum boom knowing he is one of the more experienced after would view going after newbie town day1 as unfair.
Why are you not applying this logic for scumBoom - scumJedi?

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Zenii » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:43 am UTC

ie, if Boom would care more about the experience of the newbie than his own wincon, why would he plan to bus his newbie partner d1?

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby wam » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:47 am UTC

Zenii wrote:ie, if Boom would care more about the experience of the newbie than his own wincon, why would he plan to bus his newbie partner d1?


Because when he did it, it didn't look like Jedi was going to be lynched so it looks like distancing not bussing.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Zenii » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:27 am UTC

wam wrote:
Zenii wrote:ie, if Boom would care more about the experience of the newbie than his own wincon, why would he plan to bus his newbie partner d1?


Because when he did it, it didn't look like Jedi was going to be lynched so it looks like distancing not bussing.

This is circular. If you don't think he has been pushing hard enough to lynch him, there's no reason to think that it couldn't be svt. He's either pushing him or he's not.

I think this is scumWam - scumJedi.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:41 am UTC

@wam: if you believe that they're both scum, why not start with the person who's not contributing much, instead of someone who's actually giving useful content? You even have an additional reason to vote for ScumJedi in

wam wrote:I also feel town newbie Jedi would be putting more content put there trying to figure the game out.


so why start with a BoomFrog vote? If the majority of your read of BoomFrog was based off the link to SuperJedi, you'd start with the person you're also finding independently scummy first.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Zenii » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:57 am UTC

Zenii wrote:I think this is scumWam - scumJedi.

To elaborate, my theory is that this is a reaction to the threat of Boom pushing wam's partner:
wam wrote:Also boomfrog has talked about super Jedi a lot....

wam wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:
wam wrote:Also boomfrog has talked about super Jedi a lot....

What do you think about that? Also, fyi, my vote on him is serious and for the reasons stated.


If your scum he's scum. I don't see scum boomfrog going after a newbie town beginning of day 1.
The svs logic doesn't make any sense. I think wam wanted to pivot away from Jedi while at the same avoid making a direct connection by town reading him. Furthermore, I think he is positioning himself to pursue boom simply on the basis of a scumJedi. He's working on the assumption that Jedi is scum, yet is voting Boom based solely on the connection between them.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby wam » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:59 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:
so why start with a BoomFrog vote? If the majority of your read of BoomFrog was based off the link to SuperJedi, you'd start with the person you're also finding independently scummy first.

Because I think lynching someone in D1 in their first game on the forum is harsh.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby wam » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:00 am UTC

@Zen

Surely the same argument could now be used for scum Zen scum boom!!
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:05 am UTC

So you're saying Zen should vote for you first, because it would be cruel to lynch SuperJedi today? :P

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby wam » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:10 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:So you're saying Zen should vote for you first, because it would be cruel to lynch SuperJedi today? :P


Hey lynch me all ypu want but do something unusual for this forum and actually look at the reads of dead town.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:10 am UTC

@wam: why did you suspect scum!BF in the first place (regardless of his potential link to SuperJedi)?

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby wam » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:12 am UTC

Because his initial posts came off as distancing.
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:44 am UTC

Unfortunately, getting lynched D1 as town doesn't make your reads any more correct (see me in chaos), so I don't think that's terribly useful.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:49 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:I'd like to see how you divide those games into those 4 categories after removing the ones where the analysis wasn't relevant then, if you take so much issue with how I did.
First point of business: as I've already explained my issue with bessie not doing the analysis was not at all math-related (comparison with historical numbers), you were the one that insisted on starting on that tangent. But since I have some time, you can find below my summary (and I'm noting that you haven't done a detailed check here, rather you relied entirely on bessie's summary).
Spoiler:
WoT2 - I would actually discard this because it only shows that bessie didn't like people making jokes (or was 'dense' in her own words). If you want to include it then it goes into town who did the analysis (yes, I disagree with bessie here about the classification because attacking a player due to conf-post is clearly paying attention to it and doing something about it)
Diablo - I would discard this as well because there was no irregular conf-post and bessie's meta wasn't established yet. Meaning there was no compulsion for her to mention this in any way.
Dark Tower - still discarding because it was only after this game that bessie started to pay close attention to conf-posts. If you want to include it then town who didn't do it (only addresses the issue after plytho already brought it up).
Shakespeare III - funnily enough her phrasing here indicates that she wasn't about to do it on her own. So town who did not do it (and it seems the meta still hasn't been established).
X-men - town, doing it. I disagree with bessie again, she explicitly draws conclusions from my pre-game questions which means she analyzes pre-game content
Crossover - no conf-phase, irrelevant
Fridge - town, doing it, no irregular conf-posts
Halloween - no conf-phase, irrelevant
SS17 - scum doing it, no irregular conf-posts
NNY - town not doing it, no irregular conf-posts
Stellaris - scum doing it
Alien - town not doing it, no irregular conf-posts
WoT3 - town, doing it
Chaos - scum, not doing it. I disagree with bessie here about everything being irrelevant, Madge's post was role-indicative if not exactly AI (as has been mentioned previously VT!Madge is not that excited)
Overall count if I'm being generous: 2 scum doing it, 1 scum not doing it, 2 town doing it, 3 town not doing it
Actual count where there was something to analyze: 1 scum doing it, 1 scum not doing it, 2 town doing it, 1 town not doing it

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby somitomi » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:00 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:[b]
Votecount

I'm not voting BoomFrog, (unvoted here)
bessie wrote:somitomi – Is lurking? Appeared in his first post to be anxious for the game to begin, but his content has been mostly single line questions and replies.

Um yes, I have become unmotivated since the start of the game, probably because of university-related anxiety. I always feel like I don't have much to say D1 anyway. I know this is a lame excuse, will try :|
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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby SuperJedi224 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:07 am UTC

bessie wrote:If you are having difficulty finding something to comment on, it might be helpful to make a reads list.

As requested:

This is about what I have so far, though basically all of this is still just a guess:

Bessie: Slight town lean
Frog: Generally neutral
Mark: Neutral
Moody: Slight town lean
Polo: Neutral
Plytho: Slight scum lean.
Sabrar: Generally neutral, slight scum lean
Somi: Mostly neutral.
Vicarin: Generally neutral, slight town lean.
Wam: Neutral.
Zenii: Slight scum lean

I actually compiled most of this list last night, but wasn't able to finish it until just now. With that, I would like to change my vote:

vote plytho

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby SuperJedi224 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:08 am UTC

somitomi wrote:I always feel like I don't have much to say D1 anyway.


Generally the same here.

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Sabrar » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:10 am UTC

@SuperJedi: some reasons for these would be welcome. If you have time issues (though I don't think this is the case), just focus on plytho. Why is his 'slight scum-lean' worthy of a vote instead of Zen or myself?

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Re: Texas Hold'em Mafia (Day 1)

Postby Vicarin » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:37 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:First point of business: as I've already explained my issue with bessie not doing the analysis was not at all math-related (comparison with historical numbers), you were the one that insisted on starting on that tangent. But since I have some time, you can find below my summary (and I'm noting that you haven't done a detailed check here, rather you relied entirely on bessie's summary)


Well, yeah, because I wasn't the one trying to do a meta read. If you say "meta read, bessie's scum", then you'd better be the one providing the numbers. If she can be bothered to provide numbers and you can't, then I'm going to use hers, because I'm not going to make a subjective judgement of every one of those posts. There's a reason why I focused on a meta read that had an unambiguous result for each post.

Sabrar wrote:Overall count if I'm being generous: 2 scum doing it, 1 scum not doing it, 2 town doing it, 3 town not doing it
Actual count where there was something to analyze: 1 scum doing it, 1 scum not doing it, 2 town doing it, 1 town not doing it


So, would you say that these numbers strongly support the "no confirmation post analysis -> bessie is scum" meta read that you're presenting as voteworthy?

@SuperJedi: yeah, that's a lot of hedging of bets, how about you take a stand and order them. You're not going to get penalized for getting them wrong, but being wishy-washy like you currently are is not very useful for town. And, as Sabrar said, give some reasons for at least some of them.

@SuperJedi&somitomi: This comes up repeatedly. There's not terribly much to say D1 in general, but town needs to make something to talk about, or else we're going to lynch randomly D1 and then have not much information D2 (and then we have not much to say then, and so on). Much better to have people start expressing strong opinions on stuff early, so we can at least attempt to nail scum later.


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