Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 6 - Ultimate Mammal Sash Genius

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:50 am UTC

Vote: Vicarin

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:56 am UTC

So why didn't you change your vote when you posted your read?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:04 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:So why didn't you change your vote when you posted your read?

Vicarin wrote:Also, I have no idea where you got the idea about me being that attentive to detail.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:16 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:Because there's still some discussion about the Sash claim and it being a pseudo-watcher, I'm saying we should go further. Don't target the Sash wearer, at all (unless you're a vig, then go nuts). If someone has the Sash, any ability that doesn't kill is guaranteed to be wasted, and having it move around is bad. If it DOES move, then scum presumably has it if everyone's been cooperating, and so that gives us something to go on if someone ends up getting blocked in the future. Scum having it doesn't make them like a Godfather, it just means that we know it's a waste of time trying to cop them in particular.


How do you know it is "guaranteed" to be wasted? How do you know so much more about the sash's abilities than I do?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby wam » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:32 am UTC

request replacement. I read a spoiler

B99 looks a lot like egg when your not paying attention.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:42 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:Huh.

So, why'd you ask that plytho?

What did you think the answer was, before I asked the question?
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:46 am UTC

Madge wrote:Having the Sash gives you immunity to many actions but does not protect against any kill or the daily execution


Not guaranteed, but really not worth trying to figure out what it blocks.

@plytho: I thought it'd be individually. You?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:03 am UTC

Zenii wrote:
Vicarin wrote:So why didn't you change your vote when you posted your read?

Vicarin wrote:Also, I have no idea where you got the idea about me being that attentive to detail.


Yeah, I'll be decently attentive, but I've messed up a ton of times. I'm more interested now in you not immediately switching to someone that you're 65% sure is scum.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:04 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:@plytho: I thought it'd be individually. You?
Same, but flavor heavily indicated otherwise. Which would strongly affect our strategy.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:08 am UTC

Why would the scum Sash win condition affect our strategy? Also, there were warnings about the flavour being irrelevant...

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Madge » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:36 am UTC

somitomi has replaced wam effective immediately!

be careful when reading spoilers, folks!
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:47 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:Why would the scum Sash win condition affect our strategy?
Because we base our strategy on how scum would behave and scum would behave differently with different win conditions. Isn't that obvious?
Vicarin wrote:Also, there were warnings about the flavour being irrelevant...
That's why I asked the question instead of just assuming flavor was truth.
Mark_Cangila wrote:
plytho wrote:
Mark_Cangila wrote:Let me reword that. He hasn't visibly gambited.
Why do you think BoomFrog is lying about something?

His playstyle seems like he is gambiting. Never seen him this bold otherwise.
How does that imply BoomFrog is lying about something?

Sad to see you go wam.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby somitomi » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:01 am UTC

plytho wrote:Welcome Somi!

Right, I'm here and I've skimmed the thread. Today's reserved for studying though and Thursday will be busy as always. I'll try to post something of value as soon as possible, but that might not be before tomorrow afternoon.
I am flavor blind for the record although I get the impression it doesn't matter much anyway.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:15 am UTC

Well, if you have the Sash, it'd be great if you could claim so ASAP.

Actually, should probably have everyone in their next post definitively claim whether or not they have it.

I do not have the Sash.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:20 am UTC

Hi somitomi! What are some of your initial thoughts? I'm particularly interested in your read of moody, and your thoughts on Mark's question and retraction.
BoomFrog wrote:Your scum for attacking moody for being moody. Moody is always cautious about reading too much into things like this.
I see. You think town!moody would go ahead and explicitly comment on Mark's questions without thinking through where they might come from? What do you think about moody yourself?

@Vicarin, why would scum!plytho ask that question in public?

I agree with Zen that some of Vicarin's observations in his reads post are odd. For example, calling me distracted with less than 2 days worth of content, when I explicitly said I might be busier than usual. Not sure it's alignment indicative though. I've made the kinds of slightly wrong observations myself in the past, after misreading some things.

I need to review BoomFrog again. His content doesn't feel right to me somehow. It may be nothing though.

Zenii, since you're proposing a moody/Vicarin link, does that mean your opinion of LaserGuy has improved? If so, why?

That brings me to the start of page 4.

Ninja: I do not have the sash either.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:14 am UTC

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Vicarin, why would scum!plytho ask that question in public?


Possibly to seem townie by asking something that scum clearly wouldn't ask in public? I just don't see why it's relevant for us to know the scum's Sash win condition seeing as it's apparently not possible for anyone to get their Sash wincon without being on the winning side in the first place.

The 'distracted and not paying much attention' was more towards me trying to say that I just thought that Zen was redoing Stellaris, you asking again, me pointing it out again, and then Zen pointing out that you'd followed Stellaris at least a little bit because you had a Gojoe post about it. You were responding, but not paying that much attention (as far as I could tell), which is a bit different to what I'd expected when you said you were busy.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:29 pm UTC

Laser
Spoiler:
LaserGuy wrote:
Zenii wrote:Laser Related

LaserGuy wrote:I think the questions he asked in pregame are strongly towntelling and I think him attempting a fake townslip is outside of his scum range at this point.


Vic is entirely capable of asking those questions as scum. Why are you assuming he has the theory of mind of a duck?


Well, if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck...
This was funny, but could you please actually answer. Explain why Vic would not ask those questions as scum.

plytho
Spoiler:
plytho wrote:
Zenii wrote:
@Zenii, why is plytho a 5 unlike every other townie player?
Also instinct. Just seems like he hasn't been scum in a while. I have high doubts about it though. I always have doubts about plytho.
This makes me happy :D
Why?

Laser & plytho
Laser and plytho please provide the reasoning for your reads today for your reads today -- in particular on plytho and Vic respectively.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Zenii, since you're proposing a moody/Vicarin link, does that mean your opinion of LaserGuy has improved? If so, why?
Somewhat. Other than Vic, his reads look similar to mine which has been a good sign in the past. I'm still having trouble getting over how strongly he is basing his town read on one fakeable post. Also despite the apparent connection, I'm not reading moody that strongly as scum. Oddly, I'm reading most of the players this game as scummy. May be due to the nature of the heist setup.

My current reads are

Town
Mark 30%
Jim 5%


Scum
somi 1%
Laser 10%
moody 10%
mpolo 25%
Boom 30%
plytho 55%
Vic 65%



--

Other things
wam wrote:@jimbob marks played enough to go on **** town wouldn't have asked that

It seemed like wam slipped here and forgot his stated read on Mark. I guess we'll not be getting clarification though : [

Never ceases to amaze me how people underestimate "newbies". Mark's best skill is ability to mimic his town tone. He would totally go against the grain. It's weird that Boom doesn't think that the guy that counter claimed Queen of Diamonds would be bold enough to do so. Anyway, I do think Mark is town sided.

Vicarin wrote:So why didn't you change your vote when you posted your read?

Still not sure you'll even be my final vote. I'm scum reading others as well. In particular, plytho. I don't think the two of you are aligned however so I was weighing which of you I would prefer to push. Right now I'm waiting for plytho to reveal his hand, and I'm reading you strongly enough that I'm good where my vote is for the time being.

I need to take a 24 hour break to focus on work. I seriously have to do a full black out of distractions or I wont be able to get anything done. See ya'l tomorrow.

To do list (For internal use only):
Spoiler:
mark
plytho why
laser why

moody rvs
moody scum meta (don't remember what this was)
terry crews (was just gonna mention to jimbob that I actually was surprised no one called me out on pseudocrumb).
wam scum meta (meh)
wam slip
boom too much kn (boom @ 30% cause he seems to have too much knowledge like what he thought plytho was thinking. reading boom & plytho as svs)
vic read

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:35 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@Vicarin, why would scum!plytho ask that question in public?


Possibly to seem townie by asking something that scum clearly wouldn't ask in public?
lol

@laser

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:39 pm UTC

BoomFrog: not really making waves. Expressed some frustration because Vicarin doesn't like his gambits but seems to enjoy Zen's. Early focus on Mark and the sash. Might negotiate with non-survivor indie. Calls LaserGuy and Jimbob scum. Only provides reason for Jimbob but I don't think it's a good reason.
@BoomFrog: why LaserGuy?

Jimbobmacdoodle: 'forgot' night chat only. My first impression is that this wasn't faked. I like his reasoning on Mark and moody. Maybe a little too harsh on moody, though.
@jimbob: is there anyone beside moody you find scummy?

LaserGuy: Strong town read on Vic for pregame questions. Maybe you should re-evaluate because everyone was town in pregame. Vic had one post in pre-game and one follow-up in confirmation phase.
@LaserGuy: why are you scum reading me (or when are you going to explain?) and why mpolo indie?

Mark: likely town the Q&R does not look like it came from scum. Also I feel mark is a lot more engaged this game compared to the two previous games where he was scum. Also, I'm a genius at reading mark, I correctly scum read him off zero posts last game.

moody: the null read on mark is odd. It feels like moody skipped the attempt to read mark and went straight for the null. BoomFrog may call this moody being moody but I'm not sure I agree.

mpolo: One post, not much to read from it. Hmm, I see why LaserGuy thinks indie. Mentioning pro-town indies twice seems like an odd focus for a first post.

somitomi: nothing yet.
Wam: didn't have a lot either.

Vicarin:
Vicarin wrote:Also, I asked that because I was wondering if it was possible for me (or anyone else) to get a pyrrhic victory of having the Sash as scum gets a majority. As it's not possible, there's very little reason to worry about who has it beyond making sure that they're not going to accidentally block a bunch of abilities, and making sure scum doesn't get it and try to block stuff on them.
This doesn't make sense for town but it makes a lot of sense for scum. Town does need to worry about who has the sash because they need it for the double win. This is true with or without the pyrrhic victory in place. Scum, on the other hand, is relieved that there's no pyrrhic victory possible because that means (assuming 2 scum/individual win) that if they win, they either get a perfect victory and one of them gets the double or the one that survives automatically gets the double win. So town does need to worry and scum doesn't. That's the slip.


@Vicarin:
-do you think Zen would lie as town?
-Why is your indie read at the bottom of your scum list?
-Why should a vig target a claimed sash wearer?
-What does this mean?
Vicarin wrote:I swear, if someone tries to strongly scum read me D1 two games in a row based off imaginary links with other players...


Zeniiii: I like how Zen hit the ground running.
Zenii wrote:The only difference between my play and standard play is that instead of random voting in RVS, I vote based on what ever little impressions I can garner, so we're not spending 5 pages doing nothing a la Texas.
This is a very good point and I feel it has pushed everyone else to shift gears early this game. This is great for town. I like Zen's reasoning so far although I'd like to see an update on LaserGuy.


General thoughts: I'm quite sceptical about Sash-based strategy. As is the current sash holder, presumably. I don't think we can negotiate with indies. What's stopping everyone else from targeting the sash holder when we're "giving" them the sash? As for the proposed strategy of sash-claiming and hoping to trap scum. Why would scum target the sash holder? They don't need to worry about that. (But can do so freely N3. assuming 2 scum)

town
plytho
Mark
jimbob
Zenii
mpolo
wamitomi
BoomFrog
LaserGuy
moody
Vicarin
scum

Zenii wrote:plytho
Spoiler:
plytho wrote:
Zenii wrote:
@Zenii, why is plytho a 5 unlike every other townie player?
Also instinct. Just seems like he hasn't been scum in a while. I have high doubts about it though. I always have doubts about plytho.
This makes me happy :D
Why?
Because you're a strong player and you have trouble reading me. (Not because you're wrong about me being scum recently.)
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:58 pm UTC

Vote: plytho

Obvscum.

80% after that moody esque read post. Not moving unless indy claim. Ok f'real bai

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:25 pm UTC

Wow, that Vic "slip" is so convoluted, I don't even.

Ok f'real bai

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:35 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote: I just don't see why it's relevant for us to know the scum's Sash win condition seeing as it's apparently not possible for anyone to get their Sash wincon without being on the winning side in the first place.
Even after I explained it?
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby mpolo » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:39 pm UTC

I am struggling to keep up at this point. As with the last game, all the traffic happens in my downtime, and I have to read a couple of pages and slip in with a post. TODO: I need to find jimbob's case against moody to comment on it.

I concentrated on indies in my setup speculation simply because most were going with only town-scum as possibilities, and Madge had been talking about possible indies.

@wam: Does the flavor include any "natural groupings" that would be likely to be masons/scum together? Or are we likely to have a situation with several 1-person scumteams (multi-SK)? I am assuming that if everyone is a cop, there are no "obvious" scummy characters. This is probably a hard question to answer.

I am presuming that one scum member gets a double win for having the sash while the others not having the sash get a single win.

Since the sash has to end up with the winning team, I am agreed that we can mostly ignore it.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:50 pm UTC

mpolo wrote:@wam:
Wam was replaced by somitomi.

mpolo wrote:Does the flavor include any "natural groupings" that would be likely to be masons/scum together? Or are we likely to have a situation with several 1-person scumteams (multi-SK)? I am assuming that if everyone is a cop, there are no "obvious" scummy characters. This is probably a hard question to answer.
Wam answered most of your questions:
wam wrote:However given the flavour being the haloween heist pretty much anyone can be scum in that context. I could guess powers based on the players but don't think thats a good idea. However, I would be surprised if we didn't have multiple cops of varying sanities.

I also think 7-2-1 or 6-2-1-1 are likely but given the base material and the in game flavour multi -ball is possible. However given sabrar is one of the mods I don't think 6-2-2 would have passed the sabrar test.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 2:52 pm UTC

@Zenii: you're going to have to explain those percentages to me some time, I'm not seeing how they make sense.

@plytho: why mention that jimbob 'forgot' the night chat without mentioning Zen doing the same? Your logic for the wincons is terrible. Putting any emphasis on fulfilling your personal Sash wincon as town is a horrible idea, because you'll end up with a prisoner's dilemma situation where people are defecting. Except not really, because the everyone defects situation makes scum much, much more likely to win, without helping any particular person hold onto the Sash. Much easier to just keep everyone in line until we've almost won the game, then I guess we can try throwing as hard as we can over getting the 2nd win.

I do agree that trying to give the Sash to a particular person at the end is a futile endeavour at least.

As to your questions list,
- Seeing as I've read a game where he did it, yup.
- Cause he ain't town :? Indies are still scum.
- I meant that they can, because we know they won't get blocked by the Sash, unlike most other things. They don't need to worry about wasting their time.
-Refer to Sabrar in Texas drawing links between me and bessie, and me and Mark.

I'm going to pencil you both in as no Sash.

Ninja'd @mpolo: got the Sash? Also, I think Indies have been brought up this entire game, not sure what you mean by that. Flavour is not your friend either.

Ok, need to sleep, 2am here. Might have missed questions, will check after sleep.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:09 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:@plytho: why mention that jimbob 'forgot' the night chat without mentioning Zen doing the same?
Because I used it to consider jimbob's alignment but not Zen's.

Vicarin wrote:Your logic for the wincons is terrible. Putting any emphasis on fulfilling your personal Sash wincon as town is a horrible idea, because you'll end up with a prisoner's dilemma situation where people are defecting. Except not really, because the everyone defects situation makes scum much, much more likely to win, without helping any particular person hold onto the Sash.
Why do we need to help any particular person to hold onto the sash? Also what particular logic are you talking about? I haven't put any emphasis on fulfilling my personal sash wincon.

Vicarin wrote: Much easier to just keep everyone in line until we've almost won the game, then I guess we can try throwing as hard as we can over getting the 2nd win.
At what point have we almost won the game?
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:31 pm UTC

plytho wrote:-do you think Zen would lie as town?
-Why is your indie read at the bottom of your scum list?
-Why should a vig target a claimed sash wearer?
-What does this mean?
Vicarin wrote:I swear, if someone tries to strongly scum read me D1 two games in a row based off imaginary links with other players...


Vicarin wrote:- Seeing as I've read a game where he did it, yup.
- Cause he ain't town Indies are still scum.
- I meant that they can, because we know they won't get blocked by the Sash, unlike most other things. They don't need to worry about wasting their time.
-Refer to Sabrar in Texas drawing links between me and bessie, and me and Mark.

-Was it a useful lie in that previous game?
-Are indies scummier than mafia?
-Right.
-So just a strong expression of frustration? "Raahh, how dare you wrongfully accuse me twice in the same way?"
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby mpolo » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:08 pm UTC

I don't have the sash.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:57 pm UTC

plytho wrote:@BoomFrog: why LaserGuy?
Laser hasn't done anything townie. I agree with Zen that his read of Vic was based on too little. (and unlike many other's LaserGuy isn't shy about hard town reading people as scum). I was about to move off of LaserGuy onto JimBob, but I wanted to keep solidarity with Zenii and the scum read of plytho caught my eye. Unless I missed it he's ignored the question from you and I about why he is scum reading you. The vote stays until I get a good answer for that at least.

plytho wrote:BoomFrog: ... Only provides reason for Jimbob but I don't think it's a good reason.
Jimbobmacdoodle:... I like his reasoning on Mark and moody. Maybe a little too harsh on moody, though.
moody: the null read on mark is odd. It feels like moody skipped the attempt to read mark and went straight for the null. BoomFrog may call this moody being moody but I'm not sure I agree.

Scum!JimBob isn't going to be blatant, we've seen he's good. Is he being too harsh on moody or not? If he's being too harsh do you think it's because he's scum looking for leverage? Mistakes must be magnified by the skill of the player, otherwise we'd just lynch noobs every day.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:07 pm UTC

Also, we should stop sash-claiming. The sash holder is a free safe kill target for scum. They (probably) can't be doctored or watched. That negates the entirety of those defensive roles. Whereas a secret sash holder negates only 1/9th of each cop/tracker/whatever. That means we lose more expected PR usefulness by revealing then we do by keeping it secret. Also, by keeping it secret we prevent the MYLO defection problem where townies who are confident that we will win go for the sash instead of trying to be helpful to town.

Sorry I didn't realize this earlier, I was focused on The Egg strategizing.
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plytho
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:17 pm UTC

I need to think some more about the jimbob stuff.

Why do you think sash holder can't be watched/doctored? I consider immunity to protect against bad stuff. Also, if the sash holder is immune to watcher I expect that to mean he won't be seen when he's visiting a watched player, not that a watcher won't see people visiting the sash holder.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:27 pm UTC

BoomFrog:

Tonally BoomFrog is all wrong this game. I can’t quite put my finger on what’s bothering me so much… I think maybe it’s the abrasiveness, e.g
Oh so his antics are charming and clever and mine are a distraction to town and useless? What the hell?

Plytho is a jerk

Really? Being intentionally nonsensical hides his true intentions.

None of these sort of statements feel right coming from BoomFrog. That aside, his content seems quite fluffy to me, mostly focused on sash mechanics and not really on gamesolving. There’s a couple statements in there that make me think he may be trying to be scummy on purpose, as a gambit sort of thing, which is why I’m not jumping for his lynch at the moment, but beyond that I don’t really see any Town motivation coming from him at this point.


Jimbob:

As usual most of his analysis and commentary is very astute. The only thing that really stands out is a bit odd is his scumread on moody, which doesn’t feel well motivated to me… I don’t disagree with his assessment of the Mark situation, but I don’t think that this is the sort of thing where someone else finding a different interpretation would imply they’re scum (actually his Townread on plytho comes out of nowhere too, IMHO). Other non-moody players have had similar impressions of Mark’s post to moody, IIRC. I think I’m going to move him to a slight scum lean, mostly as a gut feeling that I’m not really comfortable with his content more than anything else.


Mark _Cangila:

I tend to agree with jimbob’s analysis that Mark’s question/retraction incident probably implies he is Town. His content is light, but he’s also put up a few reads that seem genuine. Leaning Town at this point.


Moody:

Content is quite light for him at this stage. I’d like to see some reads so I have a better sense of where he’s at. Tonereading him as Town at this point, but that’s all I have to go on.


Mpolo:

One of the few players who took Zen’s scumread gambit on me seriously and attempted to analyse it, and came up with nothing. I think this is a natural townie reaction from mpolo. I find it interesting that mpolo has thoroughly read the rules, since this is not something I feel he often has done previously which has made some of his comments in older games very townslippy. It took me a couple of readthroughs to track down where Madge made the comment about pro-Town indies, for example (one of the reasons I’m speculating that mpolo may be indie is because he picked up on this). Little to go off of beside that. Leaning slightly Town.

Plytho:

Most of plytho’s content prior to his recent reads list has been short questions with minimal follow-up, reads, or analysis. I don’t really feel that there has been a level of engagement that is really consistent with his Town play, but does look a lot like his scum play in wam’s chaos.

Looking at his reads in detail, what I mostly see here again is information over analysis. He mostly summarizes people’s content, but doesn’t actually explain why this makes anyone Town/scum. This is particularly true of BoomFrog, moody, me, jimbob.

The Vicarin “slip” feels quite manufactured to me. I think plytho has fallen into the same trap as Vic/wam did in WoT3, of assuming that Town should be focused on their secondary wincon rather than realizing that the optimal play for Town is to win as Town, and let the sash business sort itself on its own. Vic is correct here, and not only is this not a slip, but it’s a pro-Town suggestion from Vicarin.


Vicarin:

As I noted earlier, my feeling is that Vicarin’s pregame questions were fairly clearly coming from Town. This really isn’t the type of thing that I would expect scum to be overly concerned with or thinking about in pregame, and I don’t think that Vicarin would have done this to attempt to manufacture a slip (particularly as Bessie isn’t in the game and he wouldn’t expect there to be much analysis of confirmation anyway). I think it is much more likely that this is a genuine townie inquery.

For the most part I like his content, and I think in terms of tone and thought process (e.g. regarding sash strategy), I think he’s coming from the right place. Comfortable Town read.


Somitomi/wam:

Only thing I really have to go on here is that wam is the other player (along with mpolo) who tried to analyse Zenii’s confirmation gambit and came up with nothing, which I feel is a townie response. Wam’s content is suspiciously low this game, but I think that’s NAI since he’s usually quite active as either alignment. Marking as slight Town lean.


Zenii:

He’s Town. Either you see it or you don’t.


LaserGuy
Zenii
Vicarin
Mark_Cangila
moody
wam/somitimo
mpolo
jimbob
BoomFrog
plytho

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:29 pm UTC

I do not have the sash.

BoomFrog wrote:Also, we should stop sash-claiming. The sash holder is a free safe kill target for scum.


Except then the killer is stuck with the sash and if they are targeted by anyone, then they're immediately outed.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:32 pm UTC

plytho wrote:Why do you think sash holder can't be watched/doctored? I consider immunity to protect against bad stuff. Also, if the sash holder is immune to watcher I expect that to mean he won't be seen when he's visiting a watched player, not that a watcher won't see people visiting the sash holder.
I was interrupting it as, "most actions fail when targeting the sash holder." but rereading the rules:
Having the Sash gives you immunity to many actions but does not protect against any kill or the daily execution
it grants immunity, so I think your interpretation is correct. Resume sash claiming!

I do not have the sash.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist [PREGAME]

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 6:42 pm UTC

@Laser: I think I see your disconnect on Vic. Madge edited it out, but when she made the original rules post of the game role PMs had not been sent out yet. This post by Vic was made before he got his role PM: (Vic can you confirm this?)
Vicarin wrote:For the rule of "you can't play against your win condition", the possession of the Sash being equivalent of a standard win condition doesn't override this, right? (don't want someone throwing the game because they're currently in possession of it)

Vic just likes analyzing the game design.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist [PREGAME]

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:07 pm UTC

@Boom:

This is the pregame post that I feel is alignment indicative for Vic. It was definitely sent out after role PMs were issued.

Vicarin wrote:Given the answer to my last question, is it possible for Town to end the game during a loss with the Sash, or do you only lose it while getting endgamed if you threw the game? Also, if the last Scum gets executed while holding the Sash, the Sash will also be moved on before the game ends, right?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:26 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:@Boom:

This is the pregame post that I feel is alignment indicative for Vic. It was definitely sent out after role PMs were issued.

Vicarin wrote:Given the answer to my last question, is it possible for Town to end the game during a loss with the Sash, or do you only lose it while getting endgamed if you threw the game? Also, if the last Scum gets executed while holding the Sash, the Sash will also be moved on before the game ends, right?
Yeah, but that's a follow up to his earlier question from before the PM's. Are you saying Vicarin is unable to keep that townie perspective the minute he reads his scum-pm? Also, why did you ignore it when I pointed this out?

LaserGuy wrote:Vic is correct here, and not only is this not a slip, but it’s a pro-Town suggestion from Vicarin.
Do you mind walking me through where I got it wrong because I'm not seeing it. Just saying I'm wrong isn't really helpful.

@Vic: Same question for you but also why didn't you respond to it when I pointed it out?
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:46 pm UTC

plytho wrote:Yeah, but that's a follow up to his earlier question from before the PM's. Are you saying Vicarin is unable to keep that townie perspective the minute he reads his scum-pm? Also, why did you ignore it when I pointed this out?


I don't recall you pointing it out. I also don't feel it is relevant since that is not the post I'm talking about, and never has been.

Do you mind walking me through where I got it wrong because I'm not seeing it. Just saying I'm wrong isn't really helpful.


It's literally the line just before that in the post you're quoting.

LaserGuy wrote:The Vicarin “slip” feels quite manufactured to me. I think plytho has fallen into the same trap as Vic/wam did in WoT3, of assuming that Town should be focused on their secondary wincon rather than realizing that the optimal play for Town is to win as Town, and let the sash business sort itself on its own. Vic is correct here, and not only is this not a slip, but it’s a pro-Town suggestion from Vicarin.


Playing to secondary win conditions is anti-Town because you are focusing your efforts and/or night actions on something that is not catching scum, which is the ultimate goal of Town. Especially given that it is impossible for an individual townie to get the secondary wincon without getting their primary wincon anyway, then it makes zero sense for anyone on Townside to be expending any effort on trying to go for a sash win.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:12 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Plytho:

Most of plytho’s content prior to his recent reads list has been short questions with minimal follow-up, reads, or analysis. I don’t really feel that there has been a level of engagement that is really consistent with his Town play, but does look a lot like his scum play in wam’s chaos.

Looking at his reads in detail, what I mostly see here again is information over analysis. He mostly summarizes people’s content, but doesn’t actually explain why this makes anyone Town/scum. This is particularly true of BoomFrog, moody, me, jimbob.

The Vicarin “slip” feels quite manufactured to me. I think plytho has fallen into the same trap as Vic/wam did in WoT3, of assuming that Town should be focused on their secondary wincon rather than realizing that the optimal play for Town is to win as Town, and let the sash business sort itself on its own. Vic is correct here, and not only is this not a slip, but it’s a pro-Town suggestion from Vicarin.
You found plytho very scummy before the Vic slip was explained and before his reads list so I'm ignoring those for now which leaves only your first line. Is that really not what plytho does in town games early D1? What do you expect town plytho to be doing differently?
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:19 pm UTC

plytho wrote:Vicarin:
Vicarin wrote:Also, I asked that because I was wondering if it was possible for me (or anyone else) to get a pyrrhic victory of having the Sash as scum gets a majority. As it's not possible, there's very little reason to worry about who has it beyond making sure that they're not going to accidentally block a bunch of abilities, and making sure scum doesn't get it and try to block stuff on them.
This doesn't make sense for town but it makes a lot of sense for scum. Town does need to worry about who has the sash because they need it for the double win. This is true with or without the pyrrhic victory in place. Scum, on the other hand, is relieved that there's no pyrrhic victory possible because that means (assuming 2 scum/individual win) that if they win, they either get a perfect victory and one of them gets the double or the one that survives automatically gets the double win. So town does need to worry and scum doesn't. That's the slip.

As a point of strategy, you are wrong. Town is glad there is no pyrrhic victory because if there was the sash holder can side with scum and we would be basically at +1 scum for the calculation of LYLO if a townie had the sash. It is interesting that Vic didn't bring this up as his reason to ask the question. But Vic's reasoning is also valid and from a townie perspective.
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