The Good Plaice

[arbiteroftruth]

Spoiler:

Season 2 started with 800+ reboots in, I think, 22 minutes. They established the premise, got some great jokes out of it, and moved on to the next plot twist. Here, we spent 45 minutes getting the group back together, which we knew had to happen going in.

Spoiler:

You're thinking of the second aired episode of season 2. The premier was 45 minutes of pretty much just the first reboot. The next episode is the one that went through 800+. I wouldn't be surprised if season 3 is similar in that regard: getting the expected stuff out of the way in the premier and jumping into twists starting with the next episode.

[jewish_scientist]

Here is a really good video on the show's philosophy.

[Zohar]

I dunno, I laughed quite a bit during it. And I felt the comedy was so different between the different characters, it was great! I'm just looking forward to seeing more of it.

[rabidmuskrat]

The first episode back this season was definitely a bit heavy on the setup. Don't get me wrong, I still got some decent laughs out of it, but I'm hoping the newer ones have a bit more substance to them.

[Zohar]

S03E03 (The Brainy Bunch) spoilers:

Spoiler:

I guess I should be used to it by now but this show constantly surprises me with how much it's willing to break the status quo. I was ready to face several more episodes of the test and demon-on-demon shenanigans.

[Isaac Hill]

Chapter 31: Jeremy Bearimy

Spoiler:

Michael and Janet documented everything in hopes of influencing the judging process. Learning the points exist means you can't earn any more. The humans hope to help other humans improve their afterlife totals. It looks like they're setting up a twist where the characters of The Good Place warn people via a work of fiction based on M & J's notes, which is the show The Good Place that we're currently watching. This also explains why the "ripples" are things that happened in real life.

Of course, given how unpredictable this who is, that it looks like they're doing this means they're doing something else.

Chidi is ripped. I assume he goes to the gym, can't decide which exercise to do, and does them all.

I guess I should be used to it by now but this show constantly surprises me with how much it's willing to break the status quo. I was ready to face several more episodes of the test and demon-on-demon shenanigans.

This is what I was talking about regarding the premiere. I'd grown used to a premise change every episode, and was dissapointed when they kept everything on a fairly straightforward path.

[Pfhorrest]

Spoiler:

I didn't see the metafictional aspect you saw there, even having read your spoiler first, but that does sound like a thing that could maybe happen anyway? If so it just doesn't seem to be being telegraphed very hard.

The more obvious telegraph that I see is a form of a classical paradox I don't know a name for: doing good for the sake of earning do-gooder points doesn't count as doing good toward your point count, but if you know that because of that your good deeds won't earn you points, yet you still do good deeds anyway, those good deeds were done out of genuinely good motivations and so count for do-gooder points, unlike good deeds done just to earn points. So, by thinking they are doomed, yet choosing to do good anyway, they're actually not doomed. The only questions remaining in my mind are: did Michael set that up on purpose, tell them they're doomed, as that's their only hope for not being doomed; and, will the Judge know or at least suspect that someone might have realized that realizing they're doomed yet doing good deeds anyway was the only way to still earn points, and therefore not award points after all because once again the good deeds were done for the wrong reason?

I also really like Chidi's spiraling out into nihilism. I've been there and only barely pulled back out of it because my inner Elenor eventually said to my inner Chidi pretty much exactly what Elenor says to Chidi in this episode, so that was great to see.

Also, unspoilered now because actual ethical conversation moreso than show discussion: that thing Elenor says about "why not try because trying is better than not trying" is literally the foundational principle of my entire elaborate philosophical system, holding up the whole thing, even the ontological/epistemic side of things, not just the ethical side. My personal motto is "fortasse desperato sed conor nihilominus": It may be hopeless but I'm trying anyway. So I was really happy to hear that said out loud on TV.

[SecondTalon]

Trying to be better is better than not trying. But there does come a time when you have to *stop* trying and actually be better. Work has to get accomplished at it. Progress has to be made. I get that acknowledging things like "I am a shitty person sometimes" is better than not noticing it. Apologizing for being a dick is a good first step when you start recognizing that you're kind of a dick sometimes - but if you're still apologizing for the same dickish behavior six months later, are you actually trying or are you just saying you're trying?

I've not yet seen the latest one, I think, just Ep 3... which segues nicely in to...

Spoiler:

So if I have the timeline right, Elanor was not killed, tried to be better for a while, failed, regressed, a year passed and she still wanted to try enough to move to Australia, worked on being better both one on one with Chidi and in group, had a blowout at her friends with just incredibly overly petty behavior because she was hurt, then apologized. Which is progress. But is it enough to account for a year and an unspecified time to say that she's actually working on it? Or was she that far down the hole that having a destructive temper tantrum, hiding, and only really apologizing when there wasn't much choice for her the best progress she could hope to make in that amount of time?

[Pfhorrest]

ST I think you misunderstand the ‘trying’ thing because you haven’t seen the episode for context. It’s not about trying vs succeeding, it’s about trying vs giving up. She’s saying giving up is worse than not giving up.

[ConMan]

Jeremy Bearimy

Spoiler:

My wife wondered whether Jeremy Bearimy came about from a desire to reference "Timey-wimey" without being an outright Doctor Who shoutout. Will the dot in the i just remain a side joke, or will they actually need to use it to escape/set up the next seasons?

As one of my friends pointed out, almost everything about Australia looks decidedly un-Australian, with the exception of the Sydney Opera House interior which actually looks like it could be the real thing.

Also I agree, Chidi has good muscles for a philosophy professor, especially one who normally can't commit to any decision.

[Isaac Hill]

Chapter 35: Don't Let The Good Life Pass You By

Spoiler:

I was surprised no one questioned Doug's interpretation of what tasks were worth good points. Sure, making bike kid happy might seem like it should be worth some good points. But, indulging his cruel tendencies will make him a worse person, and contributing to the delinquency of a minor should be worth bad points.

Maybe that's what Sean meant when he said Doug was headed to the Bad Place.

[Angua]

Chapter 35: Don't Let The Good Life Pass You By

Spoiler:

I was surprised no one questioned Doug's interpretation of what tasks were worth good points. Sure, making bike kid happy might seem like it should be worth some good points. But, indulging his cruel tendencies will make him a worse person, and contributing to the delinquency of a minor should be worth bad points.

Maybe that's what Sean meant when he said Doug was headed to the Bad Place.

Spoiler:

I feel like the points system has always been quite arbitrary, it might be that making other people happy is the maximum points, and less about whether it might make someone else into a cruel person. Note, only Michael and Janet actually met Doug, and they already know how the point system works, so if they aren't questioning it then that's how it works.

I think Doug is going to the Bad Place because the only reason he's racking up points is because he knows how it works. He's basically in the same position as the main four. It's even more tragic for him, because he's been doing it for much longer and it's really making him miserable.

[ConMan]

Spoiler:

From my interpretation, I think we're going to discover that the point system was a scam all along, as it should rightly be. Shawn seems to be in on the secret, but no-one else is - maybe the Judge? Also, Shawn's comment about how he's looking forward to claiming the show's protagonists in particular makes me wonder whether he's actually worried that they're getting too close to the truth. But is the truth "There is no Good Place", or "the Accountant is in league with the demons", or "the point system is just like Michael's fake Good Place - a way to make people torture themselves"?

[Angua]

Spoiler:

The only thing is - if there's no good place, then that puts Mindy in the bad place. Which, is torture for her due to lack of cocaine, but all the other demons seem to see physical torture as the only method.

[Zohar]

Spoiler:

The point system did seem unreasonably cruel. If somehow Michael and the four lead a revolution of sorts, I'd like to understand why it's never happened before - there were probably plenty of people to say it doesn't make sense. The existence of good and bad Janets implies there is a real good place (of course she could be in on it, too). I don't know, we'll see where this goes. I think this season, so far, isn't as good as previous ones, but it's still plenty enjoyable. The fight scene cracked me up, and Janet's fighting skills are both ridiculous and entirely in character for her.

[Isaac Hill]

Chapter 36: Janet(s)

Spoiler:

No one getting into the Good Place in over 500 years raises (at least) a few questions.

Mindy St. Clair is in a Medium Place since she was on the exact point threshold due to starting a charity after a lifetime of hedonism. No one getting into the Good Place implies no one got more points than her. Is she really the best person to have lived in the past half millenium? I'm assumming not, but then, how did she end up being the one person to slip through the cracks of what is presumably Bad Place tampering?

How good can the Good Place residents (human and otherwise) be if none of them thought to look into why they haven't gotten any new humans in the past 500 years?

Is there any significance to the number of years? I don't recall the exact value, but I think it was 520-something. So, just before the year 1500. Any relation to Columbus?

[Angua]

Spoiler:

I think they said 512? So end of the Renaissance? Given the numerous cultures of the world at that point, it seems suspect that one big event would be responsible. I'll be interested to see if it is actually Bad Place tampering, or the Good Place just not wanting any more people because it was getting crowded, so raised standards. They've got a Committee, so wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being some sort of celestial home owners' association.

I've always found the story about Mindy to be suspect, but it has so far been treated by all characters as true, so who knows?

One thing I'd like to know is what is the point of it all? Why are humans so special that they get rewarded or punished? Most of the celestial beings seem pretty down with their lots, or extremely bored at best. Clearly it's not the usual explanation of souls being needed to power the Good/Bad places, so why??

[Pfhorrest]

Unspoilered because more general: the whole premise of the show just begs for an explanation of its greater cosmogony. Who created (or how else came to be) the celestial beings like Michael and assigned them to their roles and decided that humans should be judged and rewarded and punished or even continue to exist after death at all? What is Michael's first memory, for example, and how did he come to be the person he is and do the job he has? I know the show takes a whole timey wimey Jeremy Bearimy approach to questions like that, or at least it wants us to think that it does for now (we have already gotten more answers to things than I expected the show would ever give), but it really seems like things like questions in the above spoilers hinge on the kind of greater worldbuilding that the show doesn't, at least superficially, seem like it has in mind.

[doogly]

Chapter 36: Janet(s)

Spoiler:

How good can the Good Place residents (human and otherwise) be if none of them thought to look into why they haven't gotten any new humans in the past 500 years?

Spoiler:

In the original fake good place, the neighborhood was billed as being full of people who all arrived on the same day, and then that particular neighborhood wouldn't ever get new people. Actual good place neighborhoods could have the same organizational model. It might be a little not-quite-paradise to say that I can't go hang with du Chatelet because she's two neighborhoods over and there's no train, but c'est la apres vie.

[SecondTalon]

RE:Mindy St. Claire

Spoiler:

I think it actually points out to fuckery by The Bad Place (that was almost accidentally revealed) - the point system has been rigged to keep people from going to the Good Place, but her remarkably specific set of circumstances meant she made enough to get over the hump in spite of her prior life of misbehavior. Creating the Medium Place may have been a concession on The Bad Place's part to keep anyone from digging in to the point system much further than they were already doing.

Or not, who knows.

[ConMan]

Spoiler:

512 years ago is 1506, which is when Martin Luther became a monk - that was a point where the Church was in a fair bit of turmoil, is it fair to suspect that the Bad Place was involved, maybe even taking measures to make people think too much about their morality?

[SecondTalon]

Spoiler:

512 years ago is 1506, which is when Martin Luther became a monk - that was a point where the Church was in a fair bit of turmoil, is it fair to suspect that the Bad Place was involved, maybe even taking measures to make people think too much about their morality?

Spoiler:

Seems real specific to one religion in one geographic area. I mean, yeah, that applies to Christianity, but not.... y'know... every other religion on the planet, many of which are still being practiced today and have dick all to do with Martin Luther's Funtime Celebration Vandalism?

Especially as they seem to go out of their way to tie it to any real world religion in as much as they can.

[ConMan]

Spoiler:

512 years ago is 1506, which is when Martin Luther became a monk - that was a point where the Church was in a fair bit of turmoil, is it fair to suspect that the Bad Place was involved, maybe even taking measures to make people think too much about their morality?

Spoiler:

Seems real specific to one religion in one geographic area. I mean, yeah, that applies to Christianity, but not.... y'know... every other religion on the planet, many of which are still being practiced today and have dick all to do with Martin Luther's Funtime Celebration Vandalism?

Especially as they seem to go out of their way to tie it to any real world religion in as much as they can.

Spoiler:

I did have that thought too, once I'd made the post. And the timing isn't quite right either (Luther didn't nail his declaration up for a few more years, and it's also a bit off for something like Nicea). So will it hinge on who the last person to go to the Good Place actually is, or was it something that happened on the other side entirely?

[SecondTalon]

Spoiler:

I did have that thought too, once I'd made the post. And the timing isn't quite right either (Luther didn't nail his declaration up for a few more years, and it's also a bit off for something like Nicea). So will it hinge on who the last person to go to the Good Place actually is, or was it something that happened on the other side entirely?

Spoiler:

I'm leaning towards it being an event on the Afterlife side, simply due to picking some Real World event as the split is far too easy to take as a Statement of some sort by the show's creators, even if that Real World event is something along the lines of a Doug coming up with a way to buck the system - to buck it you'd need to understand it, and Doug's the person who has come the close, so...

[Pfhorrest]

Hopefully this isn't too spoilery, but tonight's episode reminds me of a quote I keep hearing in leftists corners of the internet: "There is no such thing as ethical consumption under capitalism."